marcogr12
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:35 am

I'm confused..Did Airbus decide to stop production of the A380 because EK decided to order less planes than originally ordered or was it the other way round?That EK ordered less because Airbus decided to stop production?
2.Why did they order the 777X when they could have ordered the A350-1000ULR for long-haul on the 400seat sector? Shouldnt commonality be one of the factors taken into account,given their order for A330-900 n A359s?
3.Wouldn't the A321neoLR useful to them for short and medium-haul sector in Europe,Mid.East,India etc on routrs where the A339 is too big,esp.during the winter-time when traditionally traffic falls? I never understood why they never went after NBs like QR and EY..
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PlanesNTrains
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:45 am

marcogr12 wrote:
I'm confused..Did Airbus decide to stop production of the A380 because EK decided to order less planes than originally ordered or was it the other way round?That EK ordered less because Airbus decided to stop production?
2.Why did they order the 777X when they could have ordered the A350-1000ULR for long-haul on the 400seat sector? Shouldnt commonality be one of the factors taken into account,given their order for A330-900 n A359s?
3.Wouldn't the A321neoLR useful to them for short and medium-haul sector in Europe,Mid.East,India etc on routrs where the A339 is too big,esp.during the winter-time when traditionally traffic falls? I never understood why they never went after NBs like QR and EY..


Are you suggesting they cancel a firm order for 150 777Xs in order to keep commonality with this new A359 order for 40 frames?
-Dave


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LDRA
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:48 am

What version of A330NEO? 251T A339 for 12hr+ mission, or 215T A338 for regional hops?
 
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Stitch
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:57 am

marcogr12 wrote:
I'm confused..Did Airbus decide to stop production of the A380 because EK decided to order less planes than originally ordered or was it the other way round?That EK ordered less because Airbus decided to stop production?


It was likely a mix of both. EK did not want to take as many A380s as they remained committed to and Airbus was losing money on deliveries as is and less deliveries would have bled them even more. So this way they complete the frames already in the production stage (be it outfitting, in the FAL or parts having been sourced from suppliers) and then close the line.


marcogr12 wrote:
2.Why did they order the 777X when they could have ordered the A350-1000ULR for long-haul on the 400seat sector? Shouldn't commonality be one of the factors taken into account, given their order for A330-900 and A359s?


The "A350-1000ULR" does not exist now, much less five years ago when Emirates placed their order for the 777-9. And as the largest operator of the 777 family, the 777-9s will have plenty of commonality.


marcogr12 wrote:
3.Wouldn't the A321neoLR useful to them for short and medium-haul sector in Europe,Mid.East,India etc on routrs where the A339 is too big,esp.during the winter-time when traditionally traffic falls? I never understood why they never went after NBs like QR and EY..


flyDubai fills the "narrowbody role" via code-shares.


LDRA wrote:
What version of A330NEO? 251T A339 for 12hr+ mission, or 215T A338 for regional hops?


Since they are widely expected to replace the role planned for the 787-10, they would be A330-900s at the higher weight variants.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:29 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I can see Boeong taking a walk over to UA headquarters with a nice deal for them to officially dump the A350 order after this blow.


After all of UA's toing and froing on their A350 orders, I'd be very surprised if they aren't now very expensive to "dump". There's quite a difference between letting an MOU lapse and cancelling firm orders (especially ones that have already been changed multiple times).

UA doesn't seem too interested in A32Xneos, so what would they do, just throw away money?

Seriously, why are people here so convinced UA really doesn't want the planes they've ordered?
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jeffrey0032j
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:32 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
So what is going to happen to the 787 and 779 order? I'm sure Boeing is blowing up the phone at EK.


The 787 MoU (not order) will expire.


Oh ok. Did they actually order any 779 or was that just a letter of intent as well? I can see Boeong taking a walk over to UA headquarters with a nice deal for them to officially dump the A350 order after this blow.

The 777X order is firm, and Boeing won't be doing so. In fact, I would imagine that they are talking to EK now that EK has completed the Airbus negotiations.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:42 am

scbriml wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I can see Boeong taking a walk over to UA headquarters with a nice deal for them to officially dump the A350 order after this blow.


After all of UA's toing and froing on their A350 orders, I'd be very surprised if they aren't now very expensive to "dump". There's quite a difference between letting an MOU lapse and cancelling firm orders (especially ones that have already been changed multiple times).

UA doesn't seem too interested in A32Xneos, so what would they do, just throw away money?

Seriously, why are people here so convinced UA really doesn't want the planes they've ordered?


I could see Boeing making a deal to pay the cancelation penalties. It wouldn't be the first time they've done something like that. They even took one airline's A340's in exchange for a 777 order.

Or UA could order the A220.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:53 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I could see Boeing making a deal to pay the cancelation penalties.


Fantasy, IMHO.

TTailedTiger wrote:
Or UA could order the A220.


Another plane they've shown no interest in? :confused:
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Armodeen
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:06 am

What’s with all the partisanship? The same folks waxing lyrical about the EK 787 order at the time are now going to great pains to explain how it wasn’t actually an order after all.

Just take it for what it is guys.

I’m sure the A339 will be a fine if unglamorous workhorse for EK, much like the A332 was until recently.

2024 is a long way off so I am less convinced about the solidity of the A350 order.
 
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MrBren
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:08 am

A couple of weeks ago, some forumers here claimed the A330 NEO already dead ...
 
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scbriml
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:29 am

MrBren wrote:
A couple of weeks ago, some forumers here claimed the A330 NEO already dead ...


Many claimed the A330 was dead the moment Boeing launched the 787! :scratchchin:
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flee
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:03 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I could see Boeing making a deal to pay the cancelation penalties. It wouldn't be the first time they've done something like that. They even took one airline's A340's in exchange for a 777 order.

If Boeing is in the business of paying cancellation penalties, it would be bankrupt by now.

The UA order is large, and penalties will be large. B787s still need to contribute to the amortisation of the deferred production costs. It would be amazing if Boeing could pull this off!
 
WIederling
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:11 am

fsabo wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Bambel wrote:
Does anybody know the difference in hot&high performance between 787 and 339/359?


The A350-900 has more powerful engines and a larger wing than the 787-9 and 787-10.

The A330-900 has a larger wing, but less powerful engines than the 787-9 and 787-10.


Is there a reason the T7000 can't be pushed to T1000 thrust levels?


For the 251t version?
Otherwise the A330 doesn't need it. it has real wings :-)))))))
But the thrust reserve should enable reduced derate for hot and high?
Murphy is an optimist
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:00 am

Armodeen wrote:
What’s with all the partisanship? The same folks waxing lyrical about the EK 787 order at the time are now going to great pains to explain how it wasn’t actually an order after all.

Just take it for what it is guys.

I’m sure the A339 will be a fine if unglamorous workhorse for EK, much like the A332 was until recently.

2024 is a long way off so I am less convinced about the solidity of the A350 order.

The same folks praising the A380 and insisting it won't be cancelled are now saying the cancellation is the best choice.

Its the same on both sides of the mirror.
 
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Slash787
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:18 am

Finally EK got some sense in them, A330neo is a great aircraft and I am happy EK ordered it. Its good they ordered A350 but I hope they also take the B787J.
 
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flee
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:09 am

jeffrey0032j wrote:
Armodeen wrote:
What’s with all the partisanship? The same folks waxing lyrical about the EK 787 order at the time are now going to great pains to explain how it wasn’t actually an order after all.

Just take it for what it is guys.

I’m sure the A339 will be a fine if unglamorous workhorse for EK, much like the A332 was until recently.

2024 is a long way off so I am less convinced about the solidity of the A350 order.

The same folks praising the A380 and insisting it won't be cancelled are now saying the cancellation is the best choice.

Its the same on both sides of the mirror.

Perhaps it is because EK wanted to cancel their orders - it does not make sense to produce white tails.
 
JustSomeDood
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:48 am

flee wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
Armodeen wrote:
What’s with all the partisanship? The same folks waxing lyrical about the EK 787 order at the time are now going to great pains to explain how it wasn’t actually an order after all.

Just take it for what it is guys.

I’m sure the A339 will be a fine if unglamorous workhorse for EK, much like the A332 was until recently.

2024 is a long way off so I am less convinced about the solidity of the A350 order.

The same folks praising the A380 and insisting it won't be cancelled are now saying the cancellation is the best choice.

Its the same on both sides of the mirror.

Perhaps it is because EK wanted to cancel their orders - it does not make sense to produce white tails.


Yeah that theory doesn't make much sense. A EK that wanted to cancel orders for the A380 doesn't order 20 more (+16 options) in the past year or so and then therefore have to commit to more quantities of other frames when they get it canceled. It's pretty clear that AB was in the driver's seat behind the cancelation.
 
marcelh
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:52 am

flee wrote:
B787s still need to contribute to the amortisation of the deferred production costs.

:tapedshut: :ziplip:
 
fsabo
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:56 am

WIederling wrote:
fsabo wrote:
Stitch wrote:

The A350-900 has more powerful engines and a larger wing than the 787-9 and 787-10.

The A330-900 has a larger wing, but less powerful engines than the 787-9 and 787-10.


Is there a reason the T7000 can't be pushed to T1000 thrust levels?


For the 251t version?
Otherwise the A330 doesn't need it. it has real wings :-)))))))
But the thrust reserve should enable reduced derate for hot and high?


I was thinking that EK still had some doubts about 781 hot performance despite the MoU. T1000 has more thrust but the 781 wing is small. 339 has plenty of wing but T7000 has less thrust. Knowing that T7000 thrust can be bumped up a bit if required removes any doubt about 339 hot performance. This is just my speculation.
 
marcelh
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:01 pm

JustSomeDood wrote:
It's pretty clear that AB was in the driver's seat behind the cancelation.

I don’t think it is. I think EK has taken the first step. Last year it became clear that there is a very limited market for used A380. Also EK has all the A380 it needs and the first replacements are about to enter the fleet. Taking a lot of new planes which you want to dump in about 12 years with a very low resale value and no other customers for new planes doesn’t look pretty financially.
 
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OA940
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:41 pm

caljn wrote:
OA940 wrote:
I'd love to see an EK 787-10, but the 359 is superior in hot and high conditions. Plus it's more comfortable and offers more range, so they could switch routes like ATH-EWR during off season to it. A330neo is a weird choice, I wouldn't be surprised to see it go relatively early, even though I wish they can make it work.

Either way, even though it comes at the expense of the whale, I feel like it helps out both parties in the end. Plus it's a nice boost to the A330neo and A350 programs, even if it was a bit forced. Congratulations to both parties.




"Plus it is more comfortable..." Did you mean to write "quieter"? That is the typical charge when comparing models. Tossed about as conventional wisdom but sorry, it is a completely and utterly subjective assertion typically cited when grasping for some advantage.

Kind of like saying A aircraft have a plastic-y, throw away quality to them, a lack a sturdiness...an example of my subjective viewpoint.


No I was talking about the seat width, which is 17.2'' on the 78J and 18'' on the A350. While not tragic, the 787 can feel tight sometimes, and I'm sure passengers will appreciate the extra room. I haven't flown either, so idk if one is quieter than the other.
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airbazar
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:52 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:

-39 A380
-40 787

+30 A350
+40 A330

There is zero way that that swap is an increase in seats, let alone frames.


You really think the 787 order wasn't already part of the plan to replace A380's? You think EK just decided 2 days ago to cancel A380's? Now we know why it was just a MoU and not a firm order.
What I wonder is whether AB knew about the possibility of this deal when they decided to launch the A330NEO. AB has wanted to keep producing the A380 almost as much as they want to keep the A358. This deal could have been in the making for years.
Last edited by airbazar on Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
JustSomeDood
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:53 pm

marcelh wrote:
JustSomeDood wrote:
It's pretty clear that AB was in the driver's seat behind the cancelation.

I don’t think it is. I think EK has taken the first step. Last year it became clear that there is a very limited market for used A380. Also EK has all the A380 it needs and the first replacements are about to enter the fleet. Taking a lot of new planes which you want to dump in about 12 years with a very low resale value and no other customers for new planes doesn’t look pretty financially.

1. EK leases all their existing A380s (which presumably doesn't change with the ones incoming), they could not care less if resale values are trash given that they're not responsible for selling the planes.
2. The knowledge that the used A380 market was hot trash goes back well before last year, MH was marketing theirs for years before that with no takers, and yet in that environment, EK ordered 20 (+16) more A380s, presumably with some sort of lessor financing agreement arranged, what has changed between then and now?
 
NOVAIAD
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:00 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Did they actually order any 779 or was that just a letter of intent as well?



Are you new here?
 
NOVAIAD
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:01 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
2.Why did they order the 777X when they could have ordered the A350-1000ULR for long-haul on the 400seat sector? Shouldnt commonality be one of the factors taken into account,given their order for A330-900 n A359s?



Bless your heart :lol:
 
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scbriml
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:14 pm

JustSomeDood wrote:
1. EK leases all their existing A380s (which presumably doesn't change with the ones incoming), they could not care less if resale values are trash given that they're not responsible for selling the planes.


While EK doesn't have to worry about it directly, if there is no secondary market, lease rates will rise accordingly to cover storage and disposal costs of the lessors.
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zkojq
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:15 pm

masA380 wrote:
A twist of fate for both A330neo and 78J.

I'm not sure it is for the 787-10. It is a very well sized aircraft and won't have trouble finding sales. The EK cancellation is just a small setback for that aircraft. In a few years people will have forgotten the EK order.

TTailedTiger wrote:
So what is going to happen to the 787 and 779 order? I'm sure Boeing is blowing up the phone at EK.

Firstly, it wasn't an order. Secondly the 787-10 will be fine - Boeing will sell many more. Thirdly Boeing is probably much more annoyed about Etihad cancelling most of their 777X order. There's a minuscule chance of Boeing ever selling any of those 777-8Xs that Etihad just cancelled.

marcogr12 wrote:
2.Why did they order the 777X when they could have ordered the A350-1000ULR for long-haul on the 400seat sector? Shouldnt commonality be one of the factors taken into account,given their order for A330-900 n A359s?

Because Boeing built the 777X around Emirates, Etihad and Qatar's needs. The A350-1000ULR is a proposed adaptation of the existing A350-1000 to meet Qantas' needs.

marcogr12 wrote:
3.Wouldn't the A321neoLR useful to them for short and medium-haul sector in Europe,Mid.East,India etc on routrs where the A339 is too big,esp.during the winter-time when traditionally traffic falls? I never understood why they never went after NBs like QR and EY..

The A321LR doesn't really have the scale that EK need I don't think, though FlyDubai has some 737-10s on order. I'm sure Air Arabia down the road will do very well with A321LRs though.

NOVAIAD wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Slug71 wrote:



Are you new here?

I'm guessing that they're a teenager. :roll:
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Revelation
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:17 pm

JoeCanuck wrote:
I don't know why people keep on bringing up that there were any potential penalties involved in this deal.

One thing that should be made clear by these events is that people don't really know what's in contracts despite their insistence that they do.

We heard AA could not walk away from A350s but they did.

We heard HA could not get out from its A358 commitments but they did.

We heard QF could not get out of its A380 contracts but they did.

scbriml wrote:
Seriously, why are people here so convinced UA really doesn't want the planes they've ordered?

I think UA will end up with A350s because they make sense as 772 replacements, but it would not surprise me one bit if they have a way to get out of the contract totally or shift commitments to another Airbus product. We simply don't know what their arrangements are and I for one would not presume each agreement pushing the delivery date later came with less freedom of action for UA. There could be reasons both parties prefer to keep the order on the books yet allow UA to retain freedom of action.

marcogr12 wrote:
I'm confused..Did Airbus decide to stop production of the A380 because EK decided to order less planes than originally ordered or was it the other way round?That EK ordered less because Airbus decided to stop production?
2.Why did they order the 777X when they could have ordered the A350-1000ULR for long-haul on the 400seat sector? Shouldnt commonality be one of the factors taken into account,given their order for A330-900 n A359s?
3.Wouldn't the A321neoLR useful to them for short and medium-haul sector in Europe,Mid.East,India etc on routrs where the A339 is too big,esp.during the winter-time when traditionally traffic falls? I never understood why they never went after NBs like QR and EY..

It looks like it is EK that is "giving up our order" so the finger points at EK:

Emirates announced it will only take 14 more A380s instead of the 53 it had on firm order so far. The order is revised and now includes 40 A330-900s and 30 A350-900s, according to a new heads of agreement.

“As a result of this decision we have no substantial A380 backlog and hence no basis to sustain production, despite all our sales efforts with other airlines in recent years. This leads to the end of A380 deliveries in 2021,” Airbus CEO Tom Enders said.

And:

“Emirates has been a staunch supporter of the A380 since its very inception,” Emirates Chairman and CEO Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum said. “While we are disappointed to have to give up our order, and sad that the program could not be sustained, we accept that this is the reality of the situation. For us, the A380 is a wonderful aircraft loved by our customers and our crew. It is a differentiator for Emirates."

Ref: http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... ogram-2021

The Sheik is really good at spinning things so it doesn't appear that he is losing face when he actually is.
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JustSomeDood
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:27 pm

scbriml wrote:
JustSomeDood wrote:
1. EK leases all their existing A380s (which presumably doesn't change with the ones incoming), they could not care less if resale values are trash given that they're not responsible for selling the planes.


While EK doesn't have to worry about it directly, if there is no secondary market, lease rates will rise accordingly to cover storage and disposal costs of the lessors.


The A380 secondary market being a shitshow is not new news to both EK and their lessors, armed with that knowledge, instead of cutting back on orders, EK ordered 20(+16) more A380s early last year https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/emirates-orders-36-a380s-worth-us-16-billion, it's pretty clear that EK was still pretty interested in getting more A380s and lessors were at least nominally ok with signing off on them in early 2018, what has changed within a year to make EK suddenly want to cancel most of their outstanding A380 orders?
 
marcelh
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:36 pm

JustSomeDood wrote:
marcelh wrote:
JustSomeDood wrote:
It's pretty clear that AB was in the driver's seat behind the cancelation.

I don’t think it is. I think EK has taken the first step. Last year it became clear that there is a very limited market for used A380. Also EK has all the A380 it needs and the first replacements are about to enter the fleet. Taking a lot of new planes which you want to dump in about 12 years with a very low resale value and no other customers for new planes doesn’t look pretty financially.

1. EK leases all their existing A380s (which presumably doesn't change with the ones incoming), they could not care less if resale values are trash given that they're not responsible for selling the planes.
2. The knowledge that the used A380 market was hot trash goes back well before last year, MH was marketing theirs for years before that with no takers, and yet in that environment, EK ordered 20 (+16) more A380s, presumably with some sort of lessor financing agreement arranged, what has changed between then and now?


One word: presumably
Fact is we don’t know the details of the lease contracts.
And the MH frames were a lot younger (and more expensive) than the first SQ planes.
OTOH: Airbus knew when they accepted the order for 20(+16), that they would lose money, so presumably (!) they were OK with it.
 
WIederling
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:40 pm

marcelh wrote:
Taking a lot of new planes which you want to dump in about 12 years with a very low resale value and no other customers for new planes doesn’t look pretty financially.


That receipt was contingent on new A380 being available at all times.
( an unconditional guarantee of continued production was what STC tried to move Airbus into, no success.)

Will Emirates change that strategy now that no new A380 become available to refresh the fleet cheaply?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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zkojq
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:40 pm

Revelation wrote:
The Sheik is really good at spinning things so it doesn't appear that he is losing face when he actually is.


I think the best spin was the post on their Social Media channels:

We are pleased to announce an order with Airbus for 40 A330-900neo and 30 A350-900 aircraft, worth US$ 21.4 billion at list prices. We will also take delivery of 14 more A380s, taking our total A380 order book to 123 aircraft. #FlyEmiratesFlyBetter

https://www.facebook.com/Emirates/posts ... ?__tn__=-R

No mention of cancellations; everything is sunshine and roses. One could say that this is a perfect metaphor for what a lot of people think of EK's management :lol:
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marcelh
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:41 pm

JustSomeDood wrote:
...., what has changed within a year to make EK suddenly want to cancel most of their outstanding A380 orders?


Common sense and a reality check when looking at neighbor Etihad. We don’t know how EK and EY are financially tied, but we can’t ignore the fact that within 24 hours EK is ordening the A350 whilst EY is cancelling them....
 
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Polot
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:48 pm

marcelh wrote:
JustSomeDood wrote:
...., what has changed within a year to make EK suddenly want to cancel most of their outstanding A380 orders?


Common sense and a reality check when looking at neighbor Etihad. We don’t know how EK and EY are financially tied, but we can’t ignore the fact that within 24 hours EK is ordening the A350 whilst EY is cancelling them....

We don’t know when EY’s and EKs were actually cancelled, just that it was sometime in the first half of Feb. Burying bad news (EY cancelling A350) by releasing at the same time as bigger news (A380 ending production, EK switching orders, Airbus FY2018 results) is a very common PR technique. Everyone focuses on the bigger news and the bad news gets minimized with less attention. That doesn’t necessarily mean they are connected.
 
NOVAIAD
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:48 pm

zkojq wrote:
masA380 wrote:
A twist of fate for both A330neo and 78J.

I'm not sure it is for the 787-10. It is a very well sized aircraft and won't have trouble finding sales. The EK cancellation is just a small setback for that aircraft. In a few years people will have forgotten the EK order.

TTailedTiger wrote:
So what is going to happen to the 787 and 779 order? I'm sure Boeing is blowing up the phone at EK.

Firstly, it wasn't an order. Secondly the 787-10 will be fine - Boeing will sell many more. Thirdly Boeing is probably much more annoyed about Etihad cancelling most of their 777X order. There's a minuscule chance of Boeing ever selling any of those 777-8Xs that Etihad just cancelled.

marcogr12 wrote:
2.Why did they order the 777X when they could have ordered the A350-1000ULR for long-haul on the 400seat sector? Shouldnt commonality be one of the factors taken into account,given their order for A330-900 n A359s?

Because Boeing built the 777X around Emirates, Etihad and Qatar's needs. The A350-1000ULR is a proposed adaptation of the existing A350-1000 to meet Qantas' needs.

marcogr12 wrote:
3.Wouldn't the A321neoLR useful to them for short and medium-haul sector in Europe,Mid.East,India etc on routrs where the A339 is too big,esp.during the winter-time when traditionally traffic falls? I never understood why they never went after NBs like QR and EY..

The A321LR doesn't really have the scale that EK need I don't think, though FlyDubai has some 737-10s on order. I'm sure Air Arabia down the road will do very well with A321LRs though.

NOVAIAD wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:



Are you new here?

I'm guessing that they're a teenager. :roll:


Not always the most reliable source, but a quick looksie in Wikipedia would have answered his/her question.
 
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flee
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:07 pm

JustSomeDood wrote:
flee wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
The same folks praising the A380 and insisting it won't be cancelled are now saying the cancellation is the best choice.
Its the same on both sides of the mirror.

Perhaps it is because EK wanted to cancel their orders - it does not make sense to produce white tails.

Yeah that theory doesn't make much sense. A EK that wanted to cancel orders for the A380 doesn't order 20 more (+16 options) in the past year or so and then therefore have to commit to more quantities of other frames when they get it canceled. It's pretty clear that AB was in the driver's seat behind the cancelation.

EK ordered the 20+16 on condition that they arrive at an agreement with RR. When that failed to come through, the viability of the existing orders was also questioned and that was when Airbus started the discussions when the deadline for agreement passed.

This was because the ANA orders will be the final non EK orders delivered and EK will be the sole remaining customer. That meant that Airbus-EK discussions will not affect any other parties and a swift decision can be made.

Perhaps you were unaware of what Tom Enders said - it was a joint decision to terminate the unbuilt frames.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:33 pm

airbazar wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

-39 A380
-40 787

+30 A350
+40 A330

There is zero way that that swap is an increase in seats, let alone frames.


You really think the 787 order wasn't already part of the plan to replace A380's? You think EK just decided 2 days ago to cancel A380's? Now we know why it was just a MoU and not a firm order.
What I wonder is whether AB knew about the possibility of this deal when they decided to launch the A330NEO. AB has wanted to keep producing the A380 almost as much as they want to keep the A358. This deal could have been in the making for years.


What I think is that we are talking about two different things. My original reply to you was when you said that losing 36 A380s but gaining 70 A330/359s was a net gain. My point was that the 787 was part of their future plans as well, firmed or not. Beyond that very simple observation, I have no idea what your point is.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
ikramerica
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:58 pm

scbriml wrote:
MrBren wrote:
A couple of weeks ago, some forumers here claimed the A330 NEO already dead ...


Many claimed the A330 was dead the moment Boeing launched the 787! :scratchchin:

Not John Leahy. He said he would sell tons of them. And he was right.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Duartelmatos
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:10 pm

Besides tap’s A330neo seat configuration, how will Emirates’ or Delta’s configuration look like?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:25 pm

flee wrote:
Perhaps you were unaware of what Tom Enders said - it was a joint decision to terminate the unbuilt frames.

Actually I quote him in #180 above saying EK canceled their order which caused Airbus to cease production after the next 14 are delivered.
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marcogr12
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:30 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
I'm confused..Did Airbus decide to stop production of the A380 because EK decided to order less planes than originally ordered or was it the other way round?That EK ordered less because Airbus decided to stop production?
2.Why did they order the 777X when they could have ordered the A350-1000ULR for long-haul on the 400seat sector? Shouldnt commonality be one of the factors taken into account,given their order for A330-900 n A359s?
3.Wouldn't the A321neoLR useful to them for short and medium-haul sector in Europe,Mid.East,India etc on routrs where the A339 is too big,esp.during the winter-time when traditionally traffic falls? I never understood why they never went after NBs like QR and EY..


Are you suggesting they cancel a firm order for 150 777Xs in order to keep commonality with this new A359 order for 40 frames?

I am not suggesting anything..I was merely wondering what does the 777X have to offer more that A350series can't ,so that they keep goin with the dual fleet-type strategy instead of goin for an all-Airbus fleet (or an all-Boeing)..
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9527
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:45 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
I'm confused..Did Airbus decide to stop production of the A380 because EK decided to order less planes than originally ordered or was it the other way round?That EK ordered less because Airbus decided to stop production?
2.Why did they order the 777X when they could have ordered the A350-1000ULR for long-haul on the 400seat sector? Shouldnt commonality be one of the factors taken into account,given their order for A330-900 n A359s?
3.Wouldn't the A321neoLR useful to them for short and medium-haul sector in Europe,Mid.East,India etc on routrs where the A339 is too big,esp.during the winter-time when traditionally traffic falls? I never understood why they never went after NBs like QR and EY..


Are you suggesting they cancel a firm order for 150 777Xs in order to keep commonality with this new A359 order for 40 frames?

I am not suggesting anything..I was merely wondering what does the 777X have to offer more that A350series can't ,so that they keep goin with the dual fleet-type strategy instead of goin for an all-Airbus fleet (or an all-Boeing)..


I guess the two things it has going for it is they have firm orders for it and they start taking delivery in 2020.

I’m not trying to be argumentative, but I’m not clear on how a firm order for 150 widebodies is looked at as an option? Were EK to ring Boeing up tomorrow and say that they’re unilaterally breaking essentially the largest aircraft contract in history so that they can have fleet commonality, there would be hell to pay. But, with the ME3, anything is possible I guess.

To go all-Boeing, it’s sorta the same thing. To cancel their A380s might bring significant penalties or at a minimum to have a mutual agreement to end the A380 line might bring significant discounts on other Airbus products.

In the end, commonality likely offers little to the equation for them. Just my two cents.
Last edited by PlanesNTrains on Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
WIederling
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:45 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
My point was that the 787 was part of their future plans as well, firmed or not.


One could make an argument for the 7810 MOU ( especially its rather depraved way of signing )
being another lever operated
in trying to bring Airbus to the table for A380 future production and upgrade guarantees.

Looks like a lot of contingency and potemkin solutions fell over to the other side
with Airbus "no go under those conditions" on A380 positions.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Armodeen
Posts: 1176
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:46 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
I'm confused..Did Airbus decide to stop production of the A380 because EK decided to order less planes than originally ordered or was it the other way round?That EK ordered less because Airbus decided to stop production?
2.Why did they order the 777X when they could have ordered the A350-1000ULR for long-haul on the 400seat sector? Shouldnt commonality be one of the factors taken into account,given their order for A330-900 n A359s?
3.Wouldn't the A321neoLR useful to them for short and medium-haul sector in Europe,Mid.East,India etc on routrs where the A339 is too big,esp.during the winter-time when traditionally traffic falls? I never understood why they never went after NBs like QR and EY..


Are you suggesting they cancel a firm order for 150 777Xs in order to keep commonality with this new A359 order for 40 frames?

I am not suggesting anything..I was merely wondering what does the 777X have to offer more that A350series can't ,so that they keep goin with the dual fleet-type strategy instead of goin for an all-Airbus fleet (or an all-Boeing)..


Come on man the 77X was literally designed for EK.
 
smartplane
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:32 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Slug71 wrote:

The 787 MoU (not order) will expire.


Oh ok. Did they actually order any 779 or was that just a letter of intent as well? I can see Boeong taking a walk over to UA headquarters with a nice deal for them to officially dump the A350 order after this blow.

The 777X order is firm, and Boeing won't be doing so. In fact, I would imagine that they are talking to EK now that EK has completed the Airbus negotiations.

There are two stages of firm - unconditional and conditional. Conditional is a very soft firm, especially if major components haven't already been ordered and more importantly exist.

No order the size of the EK purchase, will have the same order status from prospective first delivery to end.

There is no way on earth, the EK order for an aircraft yet to fly will have gone completely unconditional, unless Boeing has been incredibly bold in regards to performance guarantees and penalties.

Over the last 15 years, OEM's have tightened, standardised and increasingly enforced purchase contracts (and supplier contracts too). Contracts have moved from being 'soft' for customers, to now the other extreme.

The counter-balance, is customers demanding purchase contracts are balanced. Hard terms should apply equally to buyer and seller.

And no soft resolution, like arbitration, but real dollars and real rectification time frames, linked to condition precedent and subsequent clauses, which can potentially unwind even previously delivered and paid for aircraft.
 
LY777
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:10 am


LY777 wrote:
So they are ordering the oldish A330Neo...
A real downgrade compared to the 787-10...


The 'oldish' A330neo that's only just entered service? Along with the 'oldish' 777X yet to do so?

EK clearly not considering it a downgrade.



Sorry, but Airbus hardly updated the A330Neo interior. The cabin still has the look of a plane built in the early 2000s.
On the contrary, Boeing updated for sure the 777X interior.

So yes, from a passenger point of view, this is a downgrade.
Flown:717,727,732,733,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,E190,E195,MD83,MD88, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320-100/200,A321,A332/A333,A343,A388
 
marcelh
Posts: 651
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:36 am

LY777 wrote:

LY777 wrote:
So they are ordering the oldish A330Neo...
A real downgrade compared to the 787-10...


The 'oldish' A330neo that's only just entered service? Along with the 'oldish' 777X yet to do so?

EK clearly not considering it a downgrade.



Sorry, but Airbus hardly updated the A330Neo interior. The cabin still has the look of a plane built in the early 2000s.
On the contrary, Boeing updated for sure the 777X interior.

So yes, from a passenger point of view, this is a downgrade.

I’d rather have an oldish interior with a 2-4-2 seating in Y than a modern interior with 3-4-3.
 
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PM
Posts: 5071
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:07 am

marcelh wrote:
LY777 wrote:



The 'oldish' A330neo that's only just entered service? Along with the 'oldish' 777X yet to do so?

EK clearly not considering it a downgrade.



Sorry, but Airbus hardly updated the A330Neo interior. The cabin still has the look of a plane built in the early 2000s.
On the contrary, Boeing updated for sure the 777X interior.

So yes, from a passenger point of view, this is a downgrade.

I’d rather have an oldish interior with a 2-4-2 seating in Y than a modern interior with 3-4-3.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:22 am

marcelh wrote:
I’d rather have an oldish interior with a 2-4-2 seating in Y than a modern interior with 3-4-3.

No doubt, but those are two different planes (A339/B77X) for vastly different missions. If airlines went 3-3-3 (fantasy) on the 777 your choice may be different.
 
WIederling
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Re: Confirmed: EK cancels 380's, orders 330neo and 350.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:31 am

LY777 wrote:
So yes, from a passenger point of view, this is a downgrade.


Is it functional or not?
from a passenger perspective I don't get the infatuation with for example mood lighting and other schnick schnack.
It doesn't change a jota about the seating density being unbearable. Nice for fans playing Happy Families though.
Remember big5 automobiles :
every year a new set of ever more flashy chrome trim
and the same shitty 1930ties stuff underneath.
Murphy is an optimist

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