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AA777223
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Will there be a 787F?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:17 pm

I searched for a similar topic and couldn't find one, so here goes:

As the title suggests, will there be a 787F? With the cancellation of the A380 program, which never realized an F variant, and the clear movement towards aircraft in the 787/A350 sized category, I wondered if there would be interest. I know that belly cargo has become much more profitable and common, (the 787-10 is supposed to be a freight horse) but there will always be a maret for dedicated freighters. With airlines like UPS, FedEx and Amazon continuing to grow their 767 fleets, the 787 seems natural. I also know CFRP aircraft aren't supposed to be ideal freighters, so I'd love to know your thoughts. Please share!
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TheBoeingKid
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:19 pm

I think the 787 would do very well as a cargo plane
 
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Channex757
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:30 pm

The barrel construction might cause problems, especially with cabin floors needing to be strengthened and converted. However the correct answer for your question is "eventually".

A custom built B787-9F would be interesting at the right price so later in the aircraft's production cycle. That is generally when freight variants appear.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:31 pm

With all the new build 767s it will be a while.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:37 pm

The 787 has provisions for a cargo door to be cut without affecting existing wiring or systems.

But Boeing is still selling the 767F and is increasing the rate to 3 planes per month, so it will be some time before a 787F is offered.
 
ORDfan101
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:08 pm

It will happen in time to replace a300 type aircraft
 
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UAL747422
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:24 pm

They could make one when they are ready to kill the 747-8f and/or the 767.
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tjwgrr
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:28 pm

ORDfan101 wrote:
It will happen in time to replace a300 type aircraft


FedEx is replacing their MD-10 and and eventually their A306F with the 763F.
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:29 pm

UAL747422 wrote:
They could make one when they are ready to kill the 747-8f and/or the 767.


Before that they might offer a P2F 788 when the first 788 will enter the market (terrible teens?)
 
2175301
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:43 pm

It is my understanding that Boeing planned to eventually launch a 787F. It will not likely happen until they catch up on the backlog of passenger aircraft. A 787p2f conversion might occur first.

Have a great day,
 
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:59 pm

The 787F would fall in a fuzzy size and capability range somewhere between the 767F and 777F both of which are in active production. Capacity wise it's similar to the MD-10, slightly smaller than MD-11, with similar range but less lift than the 777F. Not really sure who would need that profile.
 
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:05 pm

As long as both 77F and 767F are being produced, I don't think so. Unlike passenger market, cargo operators hardly need to have point to point or even point to hub freighters. If Boeing produces a code D wing MOM/797 , I think that may have a successor freighter of 767F instead of dedicated 787F. However, since the 787 are rated for so high cycles and so many orders, there will definitely a market for p2f conversions.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:14 pm

Given the foresight in how Boeing designed the aircraft it will make passenger to freighter conversions very easy to do. Won't have to worry as much about moving systems around and all the extra effort that goes into re-certifying those systems. I wouldn't be surprised to see Boeing Global Services put together a conversion mod in the next 10 years.
 
ORDfan101
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:25 pm

tjwgrr wrote:
ORDfan101 wrote:
It will happen in time to replace a300 type aircraft


FedEx is replacing their MD-10 and and eventually their A306F with the 763F.


I think that the 787 will be like the 767f today; it’ll be become popular after production of the passenger variant winds down
 
IAmGaroott
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:34 pm

Just as every car eventually gets an LS motor swap. On a long enough timeline, every passenger aircraft gets a freighter conversion.


Yes, I do think the A380 will get one, too.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:37 pm

AA777223 wrote:
As the title suggests, will there be a 787F?


I believe that we will eventually see one, but probably not for some time as the 747, 767 and 777 freighter programs are delivering frames and those will have decades-long useful lives.


ORDfan101 wrote:
It will happen in time to replace a300 type aircraft


The 767-300F and A330-200F are already doing that.
 
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:47 pm

IAmGaroott wrote:
Just as every car eventually gets an LS motor swap. On a long enough timeline, every passenger aircraft gets a freighter conversion.


Yes, I do think the A380 will get one, too.


A340 won't get one.
717 won't get one.
MD-90 won't get one.
A380 won't either.
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:54 pm

IAmGaroott wrote:
Just as every car eventually gets an LS motor swap. On a long enough timeline, every passenger aircraft gets a freighter conversion.


Yes, I do think the A380 will get one, too.


I'm skeptical about the A380 because of the location of it's cockpit - halfway between the two passenger decks. This would prevent nose loading that the 747 and AN-124 are capable of.

'902
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Stitch
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:06 pm

TWA902fly wrote:
I'm skeptical about the A380 because of the location of it's cockpit - halfway between the two passenger decks. This would prevent nose loading that the 747 and AN-124 are capable of.


The inability to nose-load is not why the A380 will not see a passenger to freighter conversion program. It is the inability of the upper deck to handle general cargo densities due to using CFRP floors. Those will need to be ripped out and replaced with aluminum ones and the labor cost for that will be extremely high.
 
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:27 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
The 787 has provisions for a cargo door to be cut without affecting existing wiring or systems.

But Boeing is still selling the 767F and is increasing the rate to 3 planes per month, so it will be some time before a 787F is offered.

This. I expect the engineering to be more of a challenge than expected (say 9 month delay), but I expect it to happen. When will be as ANA and JAL retire early builds.

With others have noted, I expect a P2F before factory freighters.

With a level of validity if 66,000 flight cycles and 200,000 flight hours, we know there will be a 787F. The old frames have cycle and hour lives that have decades more to go. In particular in the low utilization world of most freight.

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IAmGaroott
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:27 pm

Spacepope wrote:
IAmGaroott wrote:
Just as every car eventually gets an LS motor swap. On a long enough timeline, every passenger aircraft gets a freighter conversion.


Yes, I do think the A380 will get one, too.


A340 won't get one.
717 won't get one.
MD-90 won't get one.
A380 won't either.


Honestly, I feel like the 717 has a better chance of getting a freighter conversation than the A380. It would only be a handful or less to replace a DC-9F in some small cargo outfit.

But like I said: “on a long enough timeline”. The A340 and MD-90 didn’t have a long enough service life (or even make sense for a cargo conversion) to become freighters.
 
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:36 pm

TWA902fly wrote:
IAmGaroott wrote:
Just as every car eventually gets an LS motor swap. On a long enough timeline, every passenger aircraft gets a freighter conversion.


Yes, I do think the A380 will get one, too.


I'm skeptical about the A380 because of the location of it's cockpit - halfway between the two passenger decks. This would prevent nose loading that the 747 and AN-124 are capable of.

'902


It's definitely no 747F nor Antonov competitor. But I can see a handful or less getting a cargo door installed. Maybe even a combi for emerging African markets :duck:
 
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:54 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Given the foresight in how Boeing designed the aircraft it will make passenger to freighter conversions very easy to do. Won't have to worry as much about moving systems around and all the extra effort that goes into re-certifying those systems. I wouldn't be surprised to see Boeing Global Services put together a conversion mod in the next 10 years.


Wasn't there a big issue with 777 P2F due to the floor beams? Has this been handled differently for the 787?
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:01 am

Antarius wrote:
Wasn't there a big issue with 777 P2F due to the floor beams?


Yes, the 777 has CFRP floor beams and these are not strong enough to support general cargo densities. The 777F uses stronger aluminum floor beams.
 
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:07 am

Stitch wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Wasn't there a big issue with 777 P2F due to the floor beams?


Yes, the 777 has CFRP floor beams and these are not strong enough to support general cargo densities. The 777F uses stronger aluminum floor beams.


Right. I would assume the 787 would be similar? Would't that made a 787 P2F similarly difficult/not feasible or did Boeing proactively resolve it somehow?
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:27 am

Stitch wrote:
TWA902fly wrote:
I'm skeptical about the A380 because of the location of it's cockpit - halfway between the two passenger decks. This would prevent nose loading that the 747 and AN-124 are capable of.


The inability to nose-load is not why the A380 will not see a passenger to freighter conversion program. It is the inability of the upper deck to handle general cargo densities due to using CFRP floors. Those will need to be ripped out and replaced with aluminum ones and the labor cost for that will be extremely high.


Also the need for specialty equipment to handle and less than awesome airport compatibility. A pair of A330F makes more sense at this point in time. Kinda wonder why the A330F hasn't done better as the passenger demand for the frames has declined.
 
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:28 am

2175301 wrote:
It is my understanding that Boeing planned to eventually launch a 787F. It will not likely happen until they catch up on the backlog of passenger aircraft. A 787p2f conversion might occur first.

Have a great day,


But at the same time, the B789 will still be in high enough demand that a P2F might be more than a decade away from happening. I see a wide opening here for Airbus, basing it on the 251t A330-800neo, which is why I always saw it as good for Airbus to proceed with that development, since the 251t A330-800neo in a passenger form is an 8000-nmi frame. That would have the potential to cut into the 777F for lighter but bulkier loads (while the 777F can handle heavier, denser loads). The B777 freighter was developed specifically because of the lack of prior feedstock, and because as a passenger frame, the B77L sold poorly (59 frames), but the 777 freighter based on it has chalked up 213 sales.
 
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:24 am

lightsaber wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
The 787 has provisions for a cargo door to be cut without affecting existing wiring or systems.


With others have noted, I expect a P2F before factory freighters.

With a level of validity if 66,000 flight cycles and 200,000 flight hours, we know there will be a 787F. The old frames have cycle and hour lives that have decades more to go. In particular in the low utilization world of most freight.

Thanks,
Lightsaber



trpmb6 wrote:
Given the foresight in how Boeing designed the aircraft it will make passenger to freighter conversions very easy to do. Won't have to worry as much about moving systems around and all the extra effort that goes into re-certifying those systems. I wouldn't be surprised to see Boeing Global Services put together a conversion mod in the next 10 years.



It would surprise me if there is a P2F for the 787. The floor beams would need to be replaced, and it seems that is quite expensive.

It's the same problem the 777 has, and there is no realistic 777P2F.
 
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:17 am

IAmGaroott wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
IAmGaroott wrote:
Just as every car eventually gets an LS motor swap. On a long enough timeline, every passenger aircraft gets a freighter conversion.


Yes, I do think the A380 will get one, too.


A340 won't get one.
717 won't get one.
MD-90 won't get one.
A380 won't either.


Honestly, I feel like the 717 has a better chance of getting a freighter conversation than the A380. It would only be a handful or less to replace a DC-9F in some small cargo outfit.

But like I said: “on a long enough timeline”. The A340 and MD-90 didn’t have a long enough service life (or even make sense for a cargo conversion) to become freighters.

The thing is, there never was a DC-9 p2f, all were factory built. There were a few dozen at mst MD-80s converted. It will be a few years till the lethargic A330 p2f catches up. 787, d signed with a cargo door in mind, likely has the floor beams issue addressed at the outset, something the old A3XX program never did. Cargo companies will add frequency with smaller frames rather than convert the whale.
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:50 am

Considering the 707, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767 and 777 all had freighter versions I have no doubt that Boeing made long term provision for the 787 to be converted into a freighter and / or allow for new builds



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2175301
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:20 am

kitplane01 wrote:
It would surprise me if there is a P2F for the 787. The floor beams would need to be replaced, and it seems that is quite expensive.

It's the same problem the 777 has, and there is no realistic 777P2F.


That may not be true. It is quite plausible that Boeing designed the existing 787 floor and structure in such a way that it could just be reinforced without requiring replacement given the known issue with the 777. That's what I would have done; or at least strongly recommended; and I'm sure many other engineers would have at least considered and recommended that.

IF Boeing has designed the 787 that way; a p2f would not be expensive.

Key is: Did they design the 787 floor structure for a future Freight reinforcement option? I personally don't know; but, would not be surprised if they did so.

Have a great day,
 
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:07 am

2175301 wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
It would surprise me if there is a P2F for the 787. The floor beams would need to be replaced, and it seems that is quite expensive.

It's the same problem the 777 has, and there is no realistic 777P2F.


That may not be true. It is quite plausible that Boeing designed the existing 787 floor and structure in such a way that it could just be reinforced without requiring replacement given the known issue with the 777. That's what I would have done; or at least strongly recommended; and I'm sure many other engineers would have at least considered and recommended that.

IF Boeing has designed the 787 that way; a p2f would not be expensive.

Key is: Did they design the 787 floor structure for a future Freight reinforcement option? I personally don't know; but, would not be surprised if they did so.


Seeing as they left a provision for a cargo door, it would make sense that the floor is (or was designed to be) workable too.
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:34 am

Stitch wrote:
TWA902fly wrote:
I'm skeptical about the A380 because of the location of it's cockpit - halfway between the two passenger decks. This would prevent nose loading that the 747 and AN-124 are capable of.


The inability to nose-load is not why the A380 will not see a passenger to freighter conversion program. It is the inability of the upper deck to handle general cargo densities due to using CFRP floors. Those will need to be ripped out and replaced with aluminum ones and the labor cost for that will be extremely high.


That's all 100% true. But it gets even worse. Even if that could be done in a day and for free, it's still a Busted Flush.

That floor between the Main and Upper Decks is integral to the airframe and is load bearing. It has to stay, CFRP, Al, or otherwise. For the main deck, that makes for a ceiling significantly lower than what's found aboard 74Fs (aft of the hump, all series). In fact, even a 76F would have significantly higher clearance there. Same problem for the Upper deck of the 388. With significantly less overhead there than on a 330, the ability to carry anything beyond mid-small sized UDs limits severely the freight potential.

We'd be left with a 380 that bulks out in literally every possible configuration. Its only strength would be range, and that's not something package haulers will ever value anything like enough to look into a quad jet.

Spacepope wrote:
The thing is, there never was a DC-9 p2f, all were factory built.


Wait, what? So what's up with the windows then?

https://hiveminer.com/Tags/dc9f/Timeline

https://www.flickr.com/photos/sandsy/3426962107

IAmGaroott wrote:
Honestly, I feel like the 717 has a better chance of getting a freighter conversation than the A380. It would only be a handful or less to replace a DC-9F in some small cargo outfit.


It may have a better chance than the 380, but it's still not good. HAL use the 717 because it's the best plane for their needs. DL keep them because they have enough that their MX costs can be spread somewhat thinner. But those BR715s have only one overhaul shop (In NZ), and aren't particularly inexpensive to deal with. If you're not either of the two aforementioned carriers, the 717 quickly loses most of its viability due to powerplant issues alone.

If they were to be converted, it would have to be an outfit of significantly large size to spread that cost efficiently. A small outfit would be swallowing a porcupine taking those on.

I do agree though; still a better chance than a 388 conversion.
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:08 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:

It may have a better chance than the 380, but it's still not good. HAL use the 717 because it's the best plane for their needs. DL keep them because they have enough that their MX costs can be spread somewhat thinner. But those BR715s have only one overhaul shop (In NZ), and aren't particularly inexpensive to deal with. If you're not either of the two aforementioned carriers, the 717 quickly loses most of its viability due to powerplant issues alone.

If they were to be converted, it would have to be an outfit of significantly large size to spread that cost efficiently. A small outfit would be swallowing a porcupine taking those on.

I do agree though; still a better chance than a 388 conversion.

I was under the impression that the overhaul shop in NZ was for the particular version of IAE V2500 used on the MD90 instead of the BR715s.
 
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:46 am

jeffrey0032j wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:

It may have a better chance than the 380, but it's still not good. HAL use the 717 because it's the best plane for their needs. DL keep them because they have enough that their MX costs can be spread somewhat thinner. But those BR715s have only one overhaul shop (In NZ), and aren't particularly inexpensive to deal with. If you're not either of the two aforementioned carriers, the 717 quickly loses most of its viability due to powerplant issues alone.

If they were to be converted, it would have to be an outfit of significantly large size to spread that cost efficiently. A small outfit would be swallowing a porcupine taking those on.

I do agree though; still a better chance than a 388 conversion.

I was under the impression that the overhaul shop in NZ was for the particular version of IAE V2500 used on the MD90 instead of the BR715s.


Yeah, I crossed a wire on that one. I was thinking of the new DL shop; not in NZ. It's still the only one though, so it doesn't change the dynamic. A small operator would have a very difficult time with the 717 as an F conversion.
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:05 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:

Spacepope wrote:
The thing is, there never was a DC-9 p2f, all were factory built.


Wait, what? So what's up with the windows then?

https://hiveminer.com/Tags/dc9f/Timeline

https://www.flickr.com/photos/sandsy/3426962107

.

Yep! It’s the damndest thing. Notice on your first pic of your first link that the SCD has windows. Many were operated for long pax careers with that factory cargo door. The Airborne/DHL 9s are a different case, as they used special containers that rolled through the front passenger door to load the plane, not a cargo door. That’s how they could run DC-9-40s on freight routes even though none of the type ever got a SCD.

Technically the only member of that family to ever get an aftermarket door is the MD-80 conversion slowly getting done now.
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trpmb6
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:37 pm

Yes the floor beams would also be a challenge on a 787 P2F conversion, similar to that of 777 P2F issues. Fact of the matter is it is not weight efficient for passenger variants to carry around a floor capable of handling the loads associated with cargo. The wiring of the systems for a cargo door does not come with a huge weight penalty.

An STC package that redoes the floors for any P2F conversion is standard. The A321 conversions out there do this. The conversions for other Boeing aircraft do this. It's basically baked into the costs. Even a purpose built freighter would have to redo the floors. So the cost associated with it is ultimately irrelevant. What IS relevant is *how* the floors are modified. If they can be simply reinforced by adding structure and not having to remove existing structure the cost is greatly reduced. The how is important for installation costs and certification efforts.

Another thing that may be interesting to know is if Boeing had already reinforced the area in which a cargo door would be placed, or if there would need to be structural reinforcements there as well. Added doublers/triplers and frames/stringers boxing it all out. Again the question is how much weight they'd want to carry on the passenger variant just to make it easier to resell later as a conversion. I doubt the airlines would like carrying around that weight knowing they'll never need it.
 
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:07 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Yes the floor beams would also be a challenge on a 787 P2F conversion, similar to that of 777 P2F issues. Fact of the matter is it is not weight efficient for passenger variants to carry around a floor capable of handling the loads associated with cargo. The wiring of the systems for a cargo door does not come with a huge weight penalty.

An STC package that redoes the floors for any P2F conversion is standard. The A321 conversions out there do this. The conversions for other Boeing aircraft do this. It's basically baked into the costs. Even a purpose built freighter would have to redo the floors. So the cost associated with it is ultimately irrelevant. What IS relevant is *how* the floors are modified. If they can be simply reinforced by adding structure and not having to remove existing structure the cost is greatly reduced. The how is important for installation costs and certification efforts.

Another thing that may be interesting to know is if Boeing had already reinforced the area in which a cargo door would be placed, or if there would need to be structural reinforcements there as well. Added doublers/triplers and frames/stringers boxing it all out. Again the question is how much weight they'd want to carry on the passenger variant just to make it easier to resell later as a conversion. I doubt the airlines would like carrying around that weight knowing they'll never need it.


Now, one would think tha learning for the 777 issues concerning conversion, and with Boeing making the wiring systems ready for an aftermarket cargo door from the outset, they would have taken steps to ensure the floor strengthening or replacement would be simple and cost-effective. Even with all the program mistakes, I can't think of them making the fuselage barrel conversion-ready and then saying "Shit! We forgot that floor bit thing again!"
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:40 pm

Spacepope wrote:

Now, one would think tha learning for the 777 issues concerning conversion, and with Boeing making the wiring systems ready for an aftermarket cargo door from the outset, they would have taken steps to ensure the floor strengthening or replacement would be simple and cost-effective. Even with all the program mistakes, I can't think of them making the fuselage barrel conversion-ready and then saying "Shit! We forgot that floor bit thing again!"


I have no specific knowledge to provide, but I'm inclined to agree. That being said, we are always in a constant struggle with the requirements. No doubt they've already done some loads and mission spectrum definition and given it some thought. This will have given them an advantage on producing a P2F conversion before some mod shop out there has a chance to move in. I have to give credit to Boeing (over airbus) in how they approach the modifications of their aircraft and retaining that business segment. It seems Airbus is more than willing to cede that business to the market and let various mod shops do the conversions instead.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:25 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Spacepope wrote:

Now, one would think tha learning for the 777 issues concerning conversion, and with Boeing making the wiring systems ready for an aftermarket cargo door from the outset, they would have taken steps to ensure the floor strengthening or replacement would be simple and cost-effective. Even with all the program mistakes, I can't think of them making the fuselage barrel conversion-ready and then saying "Shit! We forgot that floor bit thing again!"


I have no specific knowledge to provide, but I'm inclined to agree. That being said, we are always in a constant struggle with the requirements. No doubt they've already done some loads and mission spectrum definition and given it some thought. This will have given them an advantage on producing a P2F conversion before some mod shop out there has a chance to move in. I have to give credit to Boeing (over airbus) in how they approach the modifications of their aircraft and retaining that business segment. It seems Airbus is more than willing to cede that business to the market and let various mod shops do the conversions instead.


I agree. If you take the A300/310 conversion programs out of the equation, even with aftermarket conversion houses, they have less than a dozen A330s converted and that's it. I'm not counting the belugas ether. Hopefully in the next few years with pending A300F retirements as well as the older 744F fleet, things might get more interesting on the WB freighter side.
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rbavfan
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:54 pm

IAmGaroott wrote:
Just as every car eventually gets an LS motor swap. On a long enough timeline, every passenger aircraft gets a freighter conversion.


Yes, I do think the A380 will get one, too.


There were comments in the early years that the A380 would have to be built as a freighter due to floor/weight limits. It would be too expensive to convert.
 
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:57 pm

Stitch wrote:
AA777223 wrote:
As the title suggests, will there be a 787F?


I believe that we will eventually see one, but probably not for some time as the 747, 767 and 777 freighter programs are delivering frames and those will have decades-long useful lives.


ORDfan101 wrote:
It will happen in time to replace a300 type aircraft


The 767-300F and A330-200F are already doing that.


Yes and FedX went with the 767 instead. Now the A330F could repace other airlines A330F's, but time will tell about sales.
 
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:02 am

Antarius wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Wasn't there a big issue with 777 P2F due to the floor beams?


Yes, the 777 has CFRP floor beams and these are not strong enough to support general cargo densities. The 777F uses stronger aluminum floor beams.


Right. I would assume the 787 would be similar? Would't that made a 787 P2F similarly difficult/not feasible or did Boeing proactively resolve it somehow?


Boeing already designed the carbon floors to handle the load along with all equipment runs to be clear of the already spec'd cutout for a cargo door. So no it will not have that issue.
 
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:07 am

I'd say so but probably in the late 2020s at the earliest - 767F and 777F are enough right now
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rbavfan
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:08 am

2175301 wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
It would surprise me if there is a P2F for the 787. The floor beams would need to be replaced, and it seems that is quite expensive.

It's the same problem the 777 has, and there is no realistic 777P2F.


That may not be true. It is quite plausible that Boeing designed the existing 787 floor and structure in such a way that it could just be reinforced without requiring replacement given the known issue with the 777. That's what I would have done; or at least strongly recommended; and I'm sure many other engineers would have at least considered and recommended that.

IF Boeing has designed the 787 that way; a p2f would not be expensive.

Key is: Did they design the 787 floor structure for a future Freight reinforcement option? I personally don't know; but, would not be surprised if they did so.

Have a great day,


If they had not done that already they would not have pre-designed a cutout place for the cargo door.
 
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:10 am

rbavfan wrote:
IAmGaroott wrote:
Just as every car eventually gets an LS motor swap. On a long enough timeline, every passenger aircraft gets a freighter conversion.


Yes, I do think the A380 will get one, too.


There were comments in the early years that the A380 would have to be built as a freighter due to floor/weight limits. It would be too expensive to convert.


When UPS or Fedex cancelled their A380F order the CEO said something to the effect they may take some converted ones in the future. I assume he realized the issues at the time.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:34 am

rbavfan wrote:
Stitch wrote:
AA777223 wrote:
As the title suggests, will there be a 787F?


I believe that we will eventually see one, but probably not for some time as the 747, 767 and 777 freighter programs are delivering frames and those will have decades-long useful lives.


ORDfan101 wrote:
It will happen in time to replace a300 type aircraft


The 767-300F and A330-200F are already doing that.


Yes and FedX went with the 767 instead. Now the A330F could repace other airlines A330F's, but time will tell about sales.


I think people in this thread should spend a little time reading this forecast. Basically, retirements and growth can't be filled by current gen aircraft alone, and they expect a 787P2F line to open up in a few years. https://www.precisionaircraft.com/wp-co ... 21_FRT.pdf
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Antarius
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Re: Will there be a 787F?

Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:08 am

rbavfan wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Stitch wrote:

Yes, the 777 has CFRP floor beams and these are not strong enough to support general cargo densities. The 777F uses stronger aluminum floor beams.


Right. I would assume the 787 would be similar? Would't that made a 787 P2F similarly difficult/not feasible or did Boeing proactively resolve it somehow?


Boeing already designed the carbon floors to handle the load along with all equipment runs to be clear of the already spec'd cutout for a cargo door. So no it will not have that issue.


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