B1168
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Questions about late night/early morning departure and arrivals

Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:48 am

If it has been discussed, offer the thread link to that and lock this thread.

As per Airlineroute, MIAT is to add Ulan Baatar to Guangzhou route starting next month. One thing that doesn’t make sense to me is it’s flight hours. How would most OD traffic bother to pay taxi fees and withstand the terrible timing, or does the route hope to use transfer flights to the SE Asia to keep the schedule to work?

For you guy’s reference, the flight lands in CAN at 0235 and departs at 0335.
 
c933103
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:01 am

Quite a number of flights around the world depart at these hours...For MIAT I believe they don't have much planes and if they want to add new destination without cutting existing service and without additional airframe, this is probably the only way they can do so as in increasing aircraft utilization by sending the aircraft out during midnight
This is a placeholder.
 
konkret
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:53 am

They can get away with this timing because there is no non stop competition on the route.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:35 am

konkret wrote:
They can get away with this timing because there is no non stop competition on the route.


This. Monopoly routes tend to downplay passenger concerns over timing, etc. On the other hand, operational concerns, like flying out at night (no heat, so better takeoff performance; less risk of delays due to little congestion) suddenly start to take priority.
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Faro
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:03 pm

konkret wrote:
They can get away with this timing because there is no non stop competition on the route.



:checkmark: :checkmark:


Just travelled back from HBE on TK via IST...outgoing arrives in HBE from IST at 02:40 and incoming leaves at 03:35...and only flight from HBE connecting directly to a major European hub airport...both flights were substantially full...


Faro
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9w748capt
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:24 pm

It's called running a business. Really quite simple. If passengers are willing to pay for a 3 AM flight then why wouldn't airlines offer them?
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:40 pm

Flights in the middle of the night are completely normal outside of NA/Europe/Japan.
 
jimbobjoe
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:53 pm

c933103 wrote:
For MIAT I believe they don't have much planes


Indeed. Wikipedia lists just five aircraft. I suspect that aircraft utilization is playing a big role in the airline's timing decision. More important routes get the prime daytime hours first.
 
pdp
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:06 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Flights in the middle of the night are completely normal outside of NA/Europe/Japan.


They're actually quite common in eastern Europe. The LOT flight from Tel Aviv to Lublin (LO166) runs at some very weird and wonderful times of night. Yesterday it landed at just after midnight and it landed at 0237 CET (having taken-off at 0019 Tel Aviv time) on the 9th!

If people want to fly, they will if it's cheap enough. The W6 flight from the same airport to LTN used to be at 6am and was *always* full without exception. This wasn't just Lublin and the surrounding area either, you'd get the occasional person from Rzeszow or Chelm because it was more convenient than WAW, RZE or KRK.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:19 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Flights in the middle of the night are completely normal outside of NA/Europe/Japan.


:checkmark:

Just look how busy Dubai is overnight.
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ncflyer
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:41 pm

I’ve always wondered why this practice isn’t done more in the markets where it’s not common such as US and Europe. Planes don’t make money sitting still and new flyers will come out of the woodwork for the right price.
 
pdp
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:45 pm

ncflyer wrote:
I’ve always wondered why this practice isn’t done more in the markets where it’s not common such as US and Europe. Planes don’t make money sitting still and new flyers will come out of the woodwork for the right price.


Two reasons:

  • Western Europeans are fussy about that time they travel
  • Most major European airports have a curfew or restricted flights between 2200LT and 0600LT for noise abatement
 
konkret
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:47 pm

ncflyer wrote:
I’ve always wondered why this practice isn’t done more in the markets where it’s not common such as US and Europe. Planes don’t make money sitting still and new flyers will come out of the woodwork for the right price.


Most major airports in Europe have a night time curfew.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:51 pm

scbriml wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Flights in the middle of the night are completely normal outside of NA/Europe/Japan.


:checkmark:

Just look how busy Dubai is overnight.

As already noted, planes do not make money sitting. Look at the flight times for India to the EU. Due to the curfews, they are at horrid times.

Aircraft utilization and airport congestion drive more routes to off hours. Unfortunately, that means passengers must accept either a transfer or the poor flight timing.

I'm a fan of aircraft utilization, but oh, such a flight out of LAX would be a hassle (why I suspect few such late flights).
But then again, the terminals aren't open at 3am:
https://www.flylax.com/en/hours-of-operation

There needs to be demand. If there is, use the aircraft.
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blueflyer
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:57 pm

pdp wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
I’ve always wondered why this practice isn’t done more in the markets where it’s not common such as US and Europe. Planes don’t make money sitting still and new flyers will come out of the woodwork for the right price.


Two reasons:

  • Western Europeans are fussy about that time they travel
  • Most major European airports have a curfew or restricted flights between 2200LT and 0600LT for noise abatement

Add airlines with enough capacity and capital to meet the demand during daytime...
 
pbodyphoto
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:59 pm

scbriml wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Flights in the middle of the night are completely normal outside of NA/Europe/Japan.


:checkmark:

Just look how busy Dubai is overnight.


The fact that Dubai is busy at night is completely unrelated. Dubai is busy at night because it's a major connecting hub with relatively low O&D numbers. The same doesn't apply to strangely timed flights on airlines such as MIAT
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:16 pm

Here's what we can deduce about this flight, with the stipulation that CAN has no nighttime restrictions, of course:

1) CAN probably has less demand in the middle of the night for landing and gate fees, and therefore those fees will be significantly cheaper in the middle of the night.
2) Using HKG as a guide for timing, it is roughly 4:30 going, 1:00 turn-around, and 4:45 returning, we can figure one airframe can do this run within an 11-hour span. An airplane that would have sat overnight is out making money.
3) The premium demand between ULN and CAN will be minimal (and already accounted for in MIAT #297/298, so this plane will most probably be filled mostly with economy fares.
4) The cargo demand on the return CAN-ULN will be filled to capacity with consumer goods hard to get in Mongolia. Given Southern China's economic boom, this has to be a shopper's paradise flight, and it will be departing from an airport with a 3800 meter-long runway at virtually sea level, which means nothing gets left behind, and MIAT maximizes cargo revenue fully.
5) As has been stated, what is inconvenient to one person is perfect for another. I love eastbound red-eye transcons from San Diego, as it gives me extra time at my destination, and I can catch up on sleep the next day. No arriving on the east coast at rush hour, no loss of a day...but that's me. For potential customers of this flight, the unusual hours might equal a savings on airfare that can be used for shopping and/or cargo fees on the return - which could mean a difference in whether a seat is filled.
 
jubaexpress
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:19 pm

B1168 wrote:
If it has been discussed, offer the thread link to that and lock this thread.

As per Airlineroute, MIAT is to add Ulan Baatar to Guangzhou route starting next month. One thing that doesn’t make sense to me is it’s flight hours. How would most OD traffic bother to pay taxi fees and withstand the terrible timing, or does the route hope to use transfer flights to the SE Asia to keep the schedule to work?

For you guy’s reference, the flight lands in CAN at 0235 and departs at 0335.


This case smells a bit like the TK flights into NBO, EBB, KGL; the plane is used elsewhere during the day and they can get an extra rotation in during the night.

They can be a blessing. In the case of Entebbe the traffic from Kampala to Entebbe can take a long time, so doing it in the dead of night can save quite some hassle and the airport is always empty.

On the other hand, finding a taxi is way more of a challenge, and leads to almost no sleep.

Others might be to get to a connecting bank. The 03.50 (ish) flight to NBO from EBB is useful to get downtown before the traffic gets horrible, or allows a connection onto the morning flights to Europe with KQ.
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:38 pm

I like the timing, maximizing the time for passengers from both side
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:02 pm

Using an aircraft when it would otherwise be sitting on the ground not earning any money is probably the biggest reason to run overnight. Then as people have mentioned slots can be available, can be cheaper, more efficient etc their are lots of reasons. With airlines trying to shake every penny out, I tend to think we will see more not less.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:44 pm

This is a clickbait "title" of this thread....."horrific timing"?????
 
B1168
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:42 pm

edealinfo wrote:
This is a clickbait "title" of this thread....."horrific timing"?????


That timing is indeed putting OD passengers in a dilemma, since CAN indeed wasn’t meant to be used in 2,3am, and any scheduling will involve significant time issues.
 
directorguy
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:02 pm

Faro wrote:
konkret wrote:
They can get away with this timing because there is no non stop competition on the route.



:checkmark: :checkmark:


Just travelled back from HBE on TK via IST...outgoing arrives in HBE from IST at 02:40 and incoming leaves at 03:35...and only flight from HBE connecting directly to a major European hub airport...both flights were substantially full...


Faro


FWIW it's worth TK has afternoon flights to HBE on certain days of the week. The road to and from HBE in the middle of the night must be depressing.

In many parts of the world, awkward departure times are the norm. Just look at India/Pakistan. 3 am arrivals and 5 am departures to the Gulf/Europe/America used to be the norm. For the ME3 and European airlines at least. As these flights need to be timed to coincide with departures and arrivals to North America and to work around airport curfews/time zones etc.
In North America nothing really happens between 0030 and 0600 in terms of arrivals or departures which I guess explains why so many people might find it unusual.
 
Gangurru
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Re: Questions about late night/early morning departure and arrivals

Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:14 pm

There can be other benefits of flights operating in the wee hours of the night. When Philippine Airlines operated Cairns-Manila, touchdown was about 03:30. Any time that starts with an 03 sounds ghastly, but my Pinyo friends loved it. At that time of day the airport commute was free from Manila’s normally grid-locked traffic.
 
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spinkid
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Re: Questions about late night/early morning departure and arrivals

Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:01 pm

I have taken Cathay's 130AM JFK departure and I'd have taken it even later. The traffic to certain airports can be unbearable.

In North America Spirit still flies Plattsburgh, NY-FLL departing 255AM and arriving 627AM. It allows for lots of connections to SA and the Caribbean.

Departing then is fine. Arriving between 200 and 400AM is tough. Its a difficult time for public transportation and arriving to a hotel. I've arrived in Europe at 8AM and then dreaded walking around until 3pm when check in time for most hotels is.
 
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RWA380
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Re: Questions about late night/early morning departure and arrivals

Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:30 pm

HA flies daily LAS-HNL 1:55am - 5:35am, F9 just recently changed it's PDX-DEN flight used to leave about 1am & arrived DEN at 4:30am, now they have changed to an evening flight.
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Faro
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:57 pm

directorguy wrote:
FWIW it's worth TK has afternoon flights to HBE on certain days of the week. The road to and from HBE in the middle of the night must be depressing.



Thanx for the information...have to look into that afternoon flight in my next booking...you are right, the red-eye to Alex HBE is quite a bummer...and very tiring too...


Faro
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mdavies06
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Re: Questions about late night/early morning departure and arrivals

Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:18 am

For the new flight you mentioned, it is down to slot issue. There are no slot at CAN available during the day similar to PEK and PVG. If you go to FR24 and look at CAN it is busy even at 1am.
 
gpasternak
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:13 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Using an aircraft when it would otherwise be sitting on the ground not earning any money is probably the biggest reason to run overnight. Then as people have mentioned slots can be available, can be cheaper, more efficient etc their are lots of reasons. With airlines trying to shake every penny out, I tend to think we will see more not less.



I have to agree that we will see more in the future. Although I'm not looking forward to my 0455 arrival in AMS later this year.

I'm guessing it changes depending on the airport and aircraft size/weight, but what is the rough range of costs associated with parking an aircraft overnight for QF at SYD or B6 at JFK , if not being worked on in a maintenance bay?
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QF1607
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:18 am

usflyer msp wrote:
Flights in the middle of the night are completely normal outside of NA/Europe/Japan.


PER has quite a few late night / early morning international arrivals and departures...

JQ 107: DPS - PER arr 2200h
EK 421: PER - DXB dep 2220h
CZ 319: CAN - PER arr 2225h CZ 320: PER - CAN dep 0025h
CX 171: HKG - PER arr 2240h CX 170: PER - HKG dep 2355h
QR 901: PER - DOH dep 2250h
GA 728: DPS - PER arr 2325h
NZ 162: PER - CHC dep 2330h
SA 281: PER - JNB dep 2350h
SQ 215: SIN - PER arr 2355h SQ 216: PER - SIN dep 0110h
QF 072: SIN - PER arr 0030h
MH 127: KUL - PER arr 0115h MH 126: PER - KUL dep 0205h
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Questions about late night/early morning departure and arrivals

Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:33 am

spinkid wrote:
I have taken Cathay's 130AM JFK departure and I'd have taken it even later. The traffic to certain airports can be unbearable.

In North America Spirit still flies Plattsburgh, NY-FLL departing 255AM and arriving 627AM. It allows for lots of connections to SA and the Caribbean.

Departing then is fine. Arriving between 200 and 400AM is tough. Its a difficult time for public transportation and arriving to a hotel. I've arrived in Europe at 8AM and then dreaded walking around until 3pm when check in time for most hotels is.


NK has a 1:30 am MSP-FLL as well...
 
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scbriml
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:06 am

pbodyphoto wrote:
The fact that Dubai is busy at night is completely unrelated. Dubai is busy at night because it's a major connecting hub with relatively low O&D numbers. The same doesn't apply to strangely timed flights on airlines such as MIAT


For Emirates of course, but look how many O&D flights from India, Thailand, Indonesia, Philippines, etc. arrive in Dubai overnight. There's a lot.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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melpax
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Re: Questions about late night/early morning departure and arrivals

Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:27 am

MEL also has it's share of late night/early morning departures, as a result of not being curfew constrained, and to fit in with connecting flights to Europe

FJ to Nadi - 00:25
JL to Tokyo 00:45
CX to HK 01:05
SQ to SIN 01:05
QF to SYD 05:30
EK to DBX 06:00 - this means an 04:00 checkin!

For arrivals;

VA from Darwin at 0:00
EK from DBX at 00:20
PR from Manila at 04:05
VA from PER 05:10
RB from Brunei at 05:20
EY from Abu Dhabi at 05:20
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oro
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Re: Questions about late night/early morning departure and arrivals

Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:17 pm

SQ from SIN to BCN - 00:05 h.
 
Gr8Circle
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:38 pm

scbriml wrote:
For Emirates of course, but look how many O&D flights from India


From almost all Indian airports, the flying public has, for decades now, been accustomed to the fact that most international flights arrive and depart during the night hours, in order to arrive in EU and NA airports during day hours......no one really complains about it.....ME bound flights operate both at daytime as well as night time, pretty evenly spread out....the EK flights are mostly used to connect to EU or NA, so they have the A380 at something like 3 am from cities like BOM.....but EK also has daytime 777 flights to BOM...…

Domestic flights are generally predominantly operated at regular daytime hours....the domestic terminal at BOM is pretty silent at night time....all the action is at the international terminal at night....its just a matter of what people are used to over the years....
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:11 pm

B1168 wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
This is a clickbait "title" of this thread....."horrific timing"?????


That timing is indeed putting OD passengers in a dilemma, since CAN indeed wasn’t meant to be used in 2,3am, and any scheduling will involve significant time issues.


You must not have been around in the 60's and 70's. In the US, airlines had significant numbers of flights between midnight and 06:00. DL and EA were especially active. As a kid I remember taking a flight that left CHA for CLT around 03:00, connecting to a 05:00-ish departure to EWR. AA had a small bank of departures from Dallas leaving around o2:00 to western destinations. I'd gladly fly at those times.
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B1168
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Re: Questions about late night/early morning departure and arrivals

Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:52 pm

I need to clarify just a bit. What I am confused at is some scheduling that result in very inconvenient timings for commuting in/out of airport. Usually, arriving by 0000 is most convenient, and going beyond 0100 (earlier than 0430) would be a nightmare; as for departure, anything beyond 0300 (aka 0100 check in) will be inconvenient for passengers relying on public transport to go to airports.
For this reason, I would in fact appreciate CTU’s 2 a.m. departure bank for most long haul flights ranging from Melbourne to Addis Ababa, since the passengers may use “last flight/HSR of day” (usually cheaper) to transfer, and OD passengers may use the last metro train to check in at ideal timing.
But it doesn’t explain why MIAT opt for that sort of timing. The only one that make sense is the “plane utilization” one, since MIAT has only a handful of planes.
 
B1168
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Re: Reason for horrifyingly inconvenient timing

Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:59 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
B1168 wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
This is a clickbait "title" of this thread....."horrific timing"?????


That timing is indeed putting OD passengers in a dilemma, since CAN indeed wasn’t meant to be used in 2,3am, and any scheduling will involve significant time issues.


You must not have been around in the 60's and 70's. In the US, airlines had significant numbers of flights between midnight and 06:00. DL and EA were especially active. As a kid I remember taking a flight that left CHA for CLT around 03:00, connecting to a 05:00-ish departure to EWR. AA had a small bank of departures from Dallas leaving around o2:00 to western destinations. I'd gladly fly at those times.


Indeed I have not been around that time. However, the similar things are happening in China, if you check out the tourism destinations (say BKK), there will be considerable amount of LCCs and legacy carrier narrowbodies flying around in those time using times just like what you have listed. IMHO, there are domestic planes landing at as late as 0200 in select airports, but overnight domestic flights are not common, mostly due to the short flight time (within 3 hrs unless involving extreme pairs of destinations or URC) and the popular HSR sleeper service.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Questions about late night/early morning departure and arrivals

Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:49 pm

B1168 wrote:
I need to clarify just a bit. What I am confused at is some scheduling that result in very inconvenient timings for commuting in/out of airport.


Now what really confuses me is why you ask about the time schedule on a MIAT flight? Would you care to clarify what made you pick this example??

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B1168
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Re: Questions about late night/early morning departure and arrivals

Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:29 pm

oschkosch wrote:
B1168 wrote:
I need to clarify just a bit. What I am confused at is some scheduling that result in very inconvenient timings for commuting in/out of airport.


Now what really confuses me is why you ask about the time schedule on a MIAT flight? Would you care to clarify what made you pick this example??

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I happened to see that flight being started in my Airlineroute daily feed, and I have seen a bunch of bizarre schedules like the (also recent) S7 flight to Guangzhou. This phenomenon is confusing for me so I asked with that MIAT example.
 
mdavies06
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Re: Questions about late night/early morning departure and arrivals

Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:36 am

At popular airports (say the top 10 airports in China, most are over 50mn+ annual pax count nowadays), slots are restricted. The pecking order is lower still for foreign carriers. CAN is pretty badly restricted and unless you have connection with the CAAC via relationship channel/network, it will be difficult to get day time slot (easier if one is a domestic airline, but will still be difficult). It is the same with nearly all new foreign airline flights into CAN in recent years e.g. AirAsia, Scott, etc. There is probably a second reason relating to MIAT flight utilisation but I don't know too much on that.

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