morrisond
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Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:51 pm

I posted another Similar thread for Airbus.

For Boeing the most significant near term decision they have to make is on NMA and whether or not the cross section can be reused for NSA.

I can see the 747 line being done by 2025 and the 748f space in the line-up taken over by 778F and possibly 779f for those who want Volume over Density.

Yes - The 777 does not have a nose door - but how many of those are really needed in the world fleet? I'm sure Boeing will let Freight operators know 748f is going out of production and make sure you have enough to last for a while. Given that freighters can fly an awfully long time - it would not be unrealistic to assume that a 2020 748f would be flying well into the 2050's.

Between now and then I'm sure a new large military transport will be designed/built to replace C5/C17/AN125/AN225.

Or Boeing or Airbus could launch a new VLA that could do the job.

So Option #1

Boeing chooses a 7W Fuselage for NMA that can be reused on NSA.

747 line winds up in time for space to be used for NMA production.

New production processes are proven on NMA - NSA is designed using NMA Nose/Cross Section with new smaller Gear/Wingbox/Wing and tail. Intro 2028-2029. Takes over 738/9/10 up to 3,500NM. Smaller NMA takes over over 3,500NM.

MAX stays in production as long as demand holds or until NSA ramps up enough in capacity to replace.

NSA could start on NMA or new greenfield site in South Carolina. Existing 737 plant transitions to NSA once South Carolina up to speed, so you have two plants producing NSA.

787 is extended with New engines after 2025 - possible MTOW bump/new gear to take on A350ULTRA.

777x line stays in production mainly as a freighter past 2025 at 12-25 per year - it just won't be able to compete with A350Ultra and 787MAX for passenger routes. Only way around this would be to throw a lot more money at it and extend to 80M and re-engine again but that doesn't seem wise.

Option #2

Boeing builds an 8W NMA for intro about 2025.

Uses 747 facilities to do this.

Then it goes and does a clean sheet 6W Single Aisle to replace 737. Takes longer than NMA based NSA - intro 2031/2032.

Greenfield in South Carolina as you can't build on NMA line as too dissimilar - eventually build in 737 plant as well when that winds down.

The big question is whether or not MAX can last that long if Airbus re-wings/extends A320/321/322 which should be available by 2025-2027 if they go that route.

Same as above with 787/777.


Just two possible options - what is your opinion of what will happen?
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:10 pm

The 737MAX has over 5,000 orders and even outsold the A320neo family last year. I don’t see Boeing working on a replacement before 2025. All the focus is on the NMA. The NMA would compete against any A321 stretches and the 737-8 is in a sweet spot and continues to sell well.
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:13 pm

Not sure about the 747 in 2025. Will enough freighters be built to keep it running?
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:53 pm

As we have seen with EK, knock out an important model (the 380 eventually), and the knock off effects careen down to the smallest plane.

The 220 could be be particularly strong from 100-150 passengers. The 797 from 200-270. Will the Embraer do OK? A 321/2 will for fleet commonality and shorter flights/few passenger do well but a 797 will excel at longer flights and heavier passenger loads.

This all may determine what A and B do with a new narrow body - we could end up with positioning not being as close as the 737/320. Airbus NSA bigger than the Boeing NSA? There is a stronger case for Boeing having to do a NSA?

Or Airbus could do a MOM. If Boeing launches the 797 Airbus response will be determined by what kind of orders it announces in the first year. Immediate response not needed, Boeing went years without a great response to the 330, and it didn't hurt them all that much. Lots of questions. Anyone see technical reasons to narrow down what might happen with all these re-alignments?
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:16 pm

I think EK will be the launch customer for the 777-1000 now. I think 25 frames will be announced soon.
The rest will be 787 and 737 with the 797 in testing.

747 will keep going as a freighter.
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:38 pm

Boeing will build the 737 for as long as they can get away with it, effectively until the competition makes it untenable. As Airbus seems more interested in seeing how long it can stretch the A320 than a new aircraft, that may be a while.

The 747 will go in the next few years sadly, there's no development left there unless they make a second bubble at the back.

The 737/757 replacement will be still rumours unless the A321neoXLRQWERTY really starts to take-off. Then Boeing will bring out the 757 plans, wipe the coffee stains off and write a 9 instead of a 5 whilst hoping no-one notices and oh god why did we kill this?

The 787 will get the odd upgrade or modernisation, maybe some new Ultrafan engines if RR feels up to it. Boeing will devise an option that causes the windows to de-tint when the sun is at full-power only.

The 777X will sell well for the carriers that need density (BA, EK etc), but for most it'll be too much plane. Boeing will attempt to build the -10 but will realise it's now so long that it sticks out each end of the Everett factory.
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:53 pm

I think Boeing definitely needs some 'new tech' in addition to the 787, as the current lineup is dated in its origins. A 7K7/797 would be an excellent start but the concern is over the B777X and its ability to compete with the lighter competition. Hopefully new engine tech on all models will maintain current equivalence.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:08 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
As we have seen with EK, knock out an important model (the 380 eventually), and the knock off effects careen down to the smallest plane.

The 220 could be be particularly strong from 100-150 passengers. The 797 from 200-270. Will the Embraer do OK? A 321/2 will for fleet commonality and shorter flights/few passenger do well but a 797 will excel at longer flights and heavier passenger loads.

This all may determine what A and B do with a new narrow body - we could end up with positioning not being as close as the 737/320. Airbus NSA bigger than the Boeing NSA? There is a stronger case for Boeing having to do a NSA?

Or Airbus could do a MOM. If Boeing launches the 797 Airbus response will be determined by what kind of orders it announces in the first year. Immediate response not needed, Boeing went years without a great response to the 330, and it didn't hurt them all that much. Lots of questions. Anyone see technical reasons to narrow down what might happen with all these re-alignments?


I think Airbus response will be dependent on NMA - If NMA is 8W they keep A330 going to compete on price and rewing/extend A320 on the bottom.

If NMA is 7W and it's small enough that it's apparent NSA will be a derivative of it I see Airbus extending/increasing MTOW of A220 to replace A320 and then launching a 7W to compete with Boeing replacing high end A320/A321 and A330.

At some point COMAC will get it together and it will be very difficult to compete with them on price with a 6W solution especially for the markets that are heavily under Chinese influence. I would have to guess that after 2025 Chinese orders for A320/737 will peter off quite a bit.

Boeing and Airbus will have to differentiate to command a premium and maintain market share (or not lose too much).
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:26 pm

fcogafa wrote:
I think Boeing definitely needs some 'new tech' in addition to the 787, as the current lineup is dated in its origins. A 7K7/797 would be an excellent start but the concern is over the B777X and its ability to compete with the lighter competition. Hopefully new engine tech on all models will maintain current equivalence.

You would find that part of the reasons why they did the 787 is to prepare for an eventual transition of the product line to composites. They took a few years to get the 787 production right, and the 797 is the next step (down scaling, validation and improvement) of the production methods. And the most important test will come with the NSA which analysts has predicted will be in 2030s.

If the 797 can prove that it matches a narrowbody in overall costs, it will mean the NSA will likely to be an A320 killer. But there is a question of Russian and Chinese competition by then.
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:07 pm

Noshow wrote:
Not sure about the 747 in 2025. Will enough freighters be built to keep it running?


Currently there are 24 747's on the backlog, the rate is 6 per year so that effectively takes it up to the end of 2022 at the earliest. I would say the next couple of years are critical, if they can still get orders in, they only need 6 per year. In the past 4 years they have managed to sell at least 6 a year so get some more orders should be achievable
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:22 pm

morrisond wrote:


747 line winds up in time for space to be used for NMA production.

NSA could start on NMA or new greenfield site in South Carolina. Existing 737 plant transitions to NSA once South Carolina up to speed, so you have two plants producing NSA.





I'm guessing there will probably be a FAL for the NSA or NMA in Brazil in addition to any FALs in the US.
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:27 pm

morrisond wrote:

777x line stays in production mainly as a freighter past 2025 at 12-25 per year - it just won't be able to compete with A350Ultra and 787MAX for passenger routes. Only way around this would be to throw a lot more money at it and extend to 80M and re-engine again but that doesn't seem wise.



I think you will find the 777X will easily go past 2025. The 77W replacement cycle has barely started and while the 777X wont get all of the 844 77W's ordered it should get some. There are also 307 777X's on the backlog (19 have been taken off due to EY's cancellation), last year delivered 48 777's. If this were to continue 307 777X's plus 103 777 classics would put production at 8 and a half years.

Now that the A388 has been canned from 2021, airlines wanting to replace A388's, the closest thing currently available is the 777X. QR has already indicated A388's will be replaced by the 777X. Currently they have 60 777X's on order (essentially a one for one replacement for the current fleet) they also have 40 options. Emirates has 50 options on the 777X. There are also other airlines that would order the 777X. It is quite plausible that we will see at least 500 777X's built, probably more and I havent included any freighters in the above numbers
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:24 pm

If Boeing decided not doing NMA, there will be a 787-6,.

787-8 fuselodge and wing with redesigned structure for 200T MTOW, RR ultrafan, deletion of center wing box tank. Good for mission up to 9 hours
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:36 pm

seahawk wrote:
I think EK will be the launch customer for the 777-1000 now. I think 25 frames will be announced soon.
The rest will be 787 and 737 with the 797 in testing.

747 will keep going as a freighter.


Why would Boeing would make the same mistake as Airbus. Hardly any customers would want the 777x-10. Why would they pour tens of millions into a large version? Just to make 25 builds? I can only see the ME3 and BA ordering the 777x-10
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:50 pm

If one manufacturer causes too much disruption, the other manufacturer has to react- but if neither does anything, then there is no reason to improve. Boeing's plan depends on what Airbus does ( and Airbus' plan depends on what Boeing does).

As it currently stands in the narrow body market, it looks like Airbus has a slight edge, but not enough of an edge to cause Boeing to react. If Boing were to react, they would need to build a plane that would force Airbus to do something besides a simple stretch/ re-engine of their current aircraft. At this point there isn't a set of upgrades that provides a large enough difference between the 73M/A32N and a 797 to sustain a $20-30B in development costs (especially if Boeing or Airbus could spend $2B just to stretch the A32N/B73M and put similar 797 engines in place). On the Airbus side, I don't think there is much desire to improve the A32N. If the A32N was improved to the point that it was Unequivocally better than the 73M, and airlines wouldn't buy the B73M- then Boeing would have to go ahead and do the 797 project (making a better aircraft than Airbus just paid to upgrade). So as it sits, neither company has an incentive to improve the narrow body line up.


The wide body market seams to be a much more interesting market, A+B have recently invested a lot in this area. they keep finding new technology and design innovations that are cheap enough to receive a sizable return on investment. In the wide body area, we continue to see PiPs and aerodynamic improvements, but I would hazard to guess that we might see some cool down in new models to recoup all the investment of the 748, 77X, 787, A33N, A350, and A380. I think beyond the announcements that have already been made, there is no reason should see any significant difference to the A+B line ups in the next 4-6 years.
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:52 pm

If they launch the 797 before 2025, they won't be able to launch any new programs because they will have used up all of the names. <tongue planted firmly in check. :) >
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:00 am

I happen to agree the 747 probably won't make it.

779/778/778F are the high end
787 still in volume production. Further PIPs push the optimum gauge up
797 finally dispaces the 767. But the 766F has a few more years.
737MAX still a mainstay, but due to the A220/A321 pressure, a CFRP winged narrowbody has already been announced. I do not know if it has a new cross section and cockpit or the 737's...
The E2 jets... I'm very curious how they sell going forward


qf789 wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Not sure about the 747 in 2025. Will enough freighters be built to keep it running?


Currently there are 24 747's on the backlog, the rate is 6 per year so that effectively takes it up to the end of 2022 at the earliest. I would say the next couple of years are critical, if they can still get orders in, they only need 6 per year. In the past 4 years they have managed to sell at least 6 a year so get some more orders should be achievable

I see production extended a little. But more and more is engineered as belly freight.
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:21 am

PHLspecial wrote:
seahawk wrote:
I think EK will be the launch customer for the 777-1000 now. I think 25 frames will be announced soon.
The rest will be 787 and 737 with the 797 in testing.

747 will keep going as a freighter.


Why would Boeing would make the same mistake as Airbus. Hardly any customers would want the 777x-10. Why would they pour tens of millions into a large version? Just to make 25 builds? I can only see the ME3 and BA ordering the 777x-10


I definitely see Boeing launching a 777-10 by 2025, with GE9X engines incorporating several rounds of improvement and the airframe optimized after a few years of production of the -9 and -8 models, it'll probably have a range of ~7000nm with 470-500 pax, the largest cargo volume in the industry, and with the option to put the forward lavs and galleys down in the hold for even more pax space on payload-limited long haul flights. Economics will be extremely good, and much better relative to the competition than either the A380 or 747-8I could ever have hoped to achieve, and the ability to fit Code E gates and taxiways means it's not nearly as airport limited as the A380 was.
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:31 am

pdp wrote:
Boeing will attempt to build the -10 but will realise it's now so long that it sticks out each end of the Everett factory.


Good one right there!
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JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:50 am

I feel the 748F will land 20 to 25 more orders beyond its current book. Hopefully it picks up PIPS that go into the GEnX series. I hope production makes it to 2027 or so.

The 767F and KC-46 will keep rumbling along, it should still be selling in 2025. If all goes well over 100 KC-46 frames still to build.

The 777-8 & 9 will do reasonably well, not like the 77W but a steady 8 or so a month. The -9 is like 78m, quite close to the 80m box dimension, at the MTOW limit of the gear, etc. Boeing probably feels the -9 is the biggest. Besides VLA's are not a hot market right now.

The 788, 9, & -10 will be chugging along with good sales numbers, in particular the -10 as best economics is a difference when airlines have plenty of frames that can do the routes the -10 can't. Steady engine pips, rate 14 will hold for 4 years, back down to rate 10 by 2026. No big changes here.

The 797 will be launching, initial low rate production at Everett. CHS will get the first full rate production plant opening about a year after first delivery in 2027.

B737 Max Chugging along, no official word about NSA but the buzz in 2025 is it is coming around 2031.
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:45 am

I think that the next 10-20 years will yield a step change in technology.
Designs will reflect that step change, so Airbus and Boeing may be forced to think outside of the "tube".
The NMA would have to wait for a new generation of engines and the design would still be rather conventional.
The beginning of the jet era was a step change revolution but not much has changed in the past 50 years except basic evolution and improvements.
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:49 am

I agree. Look at the B-2 and B-21. The change happens. Just commercial aircraft need to adapt to the technology. Some KC-135 follow on tanker might pave the way for some twin or three engine commercial BWB? Computer time is becoming cheaper maybe this leads us to more dramatic changes away from those "boring" tube and low wing twins?
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:12 pm

There won't be big changes in 2025

B737Max will remain

B777X is still brand new, so that won't go anywhere

They won't work a new version of B747, but I am sure they will get some freighter orders

The only new thing by 2025 I can expect from Boeing is the B797

I could see a longer range for the B787J maybe even a little stretch

other than that I don't see Boeing working on anything else new before 2030.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:25 pm

qf789 wrote:
morrisond wrote:

777x line stays in production mainly as a freighter past 2025 at 12-25 per year - it just won't be able to compete with A350Ultra and 787MAX for passenger routes. Only way around this would be to throw a lot more money at it and extend to 80M and re-engine again but that doesn't seem wise.



I think you will find the 777X will easily go past 2025. The 77W replacement cycle has barely started and while the 777X wont get all of the 844 77W's ordered it should get some. There are also 307 777X's on the backlog (19 have been taken off due to EY's cancellation), last year delivered 48 777's. If this were to continue 307 777X's plus 103 777 classics would put production at 8 and a half years.

Now that the A388 has been canned from 2021, airlines wanting to replace A388's, the closest thing currently available is the 777X. QR has already indicated A388's will be replaced by the 777X. Currently they have 60 777X's on order (essentially a one for one replacement for the current fleet) they also have 40 options. Emirates has 50 options on the 777X. There are also other airlines that would order the 777X. It is quite plausible that we will see at least 500 777X's built, probably more and I havent included any freighters in the above numbers


That makes sense on the 777X program - I wasn't doing the math on the backlog when I was guessing 12-25 per year after 2025 - I was getting a little too extreme when thinking they will never build 100 per year again. 40-50 per year for the next decade seems reasonable (assuming no Global Recession/Downturn) then tapering to the 12-25 per year after - unless Boeing throws a bunch of Money at it later next decade.
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:29 pm

I see roll out of 797 by then. The lessons from this project will go in to NSA by 2030ish.

I expect a MAX 787 to be in the works, powered by a GE GTF and UltraFan as options.

77X will continue to improve via PIPs, weight shavings, stretches, etc. I do think we'll see a CRFP 797, followed by a CRFP 737/E-jet replacement in cooperation with Embraer. The last to get the overhaul will be the 77X successor around 2035, which I predict will be a double decker, CRFP, twin engine.

By 2025
Tweaked E-Jet
737-8/10 MAX (7 and 9 phased out)
797-6/7
787-9/10 MAX ready for rollout
777-8/9 (maybe a 10)
777-8F

By 2030
NSA: Embraer/Boeing E-jet / 737 replacement
797 MAX
787 MAX
777-10 MAX (end of line)
778F

By 2035
Same as above but with the Boeing 808: a CRFP, double decker, twin GTF engine VLA.
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morrisond
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:46 pm

It seems like I am definitely in the minority on an NSA based on an 7W NMA and that it enters service before 2030.

There are four big reasons I see this happening - Extra Premium Seats, Cargo Volume, production cost and development cost.

I'm guessing that if Boeing does the tight light Ovalish 7W Cross Section - it is something like 170" H (A320 +7") and 188" W (737 + 20.5" for extra seat and two armrests + 19" Aisle).

Using a simple Elipse Area Calculator this gives a Cross Section of 25,101"sq, Vs 19,971"sq for A320 and 18,133"sq for 737.

That is 25.7% more for NMA/NSA over A320, and 10.1% A320 over 737.

For this extra drag you get approximately 52.6% more internal Volume in a Container assuming 30" W than LD3 and about 6" higher.

In Y you get 16.7% more seats (less than 25.7% increase in Surface area - but the extra 10.1% of the A320 over 737 doesn't seem to hurt it that much).

Domestic Business you could do a nice 2x2x2 and Lay Flat First 1x1x1 is doable easily - 50% more premium seats over an A320/737 Cross Section for a 25.1% increase in Surface area.

More room for Business class Seats and more room in the belly for Cargo as you won't need as much length in the belly for baggage.

This is a big advantage over an A320 Tube with ACT's, assuming they design NMA/NSA with enough internal fuel volume without having to resort to ACT's.

On production cost I expect NMA/NSA production to be highly automated increasing Boeing's cost advantage over Airbus.

Finally development cost and time. This is especially important if Airbus re-wings the A320 for intro in 5-6 years. If Boeing choose to do an 8W NMA they probably wouldn't have the Engineering resources to do another clean sheet Single Aisle before the early 2030's to respond.

By basing the NMA and NSA on the same 7W cross section - NSA could come a lot sooner and at a lower cost. If NMA is already in
development it would not take that many more years to do a new wing/wingbox/gear/tail for NSA. Especially as your Engineering teams will have just done NMA and will take into account NSA when Designing NMA (Possibly Common Forward Gear Bay to allow longer gear for NMA).

Your new production processes can be proven on NMA before having to ramp up for NSA and you can further refine the design to get as much weight out as possible.

I wouldn't launch NSA right away - I would wait until Airbus is fully committed to whatever their response is to NMA and also to not cannabalize sales of MAX. However a Launch in 2022/2023 for 2028 Service entry seems doable.
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:16 pm

With the above if you build a greenfield sight in South Carolina to start NSA production - Max can stay in production until NSA ramps up and replaces 737 on 737 lines. You may be able to get away with not offering as big Launch discounts either and sell NSA as a premium product until you get cost of production down and then drop price to promote volume.
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:47 pm

morrisond wrote:
It seems like I am definitely in the minority on an NSA based on an 7W NMA and that it enters service before 2030.

There are four big reasons I see this happening - Extra Premium Seats, Cargo Volume, production cost and development cost.

I'm guessing that if Boeing does the tight light Ovalish 7W Cross Section - it is something like 170" H (A320 +7") and 188" W (737 + 20.5" for extra seat and two armrests + 19" Aisle).

Using a simple Elipse Area Calculator this gives a Cross Section of 25,101"sq, Vs 19,971"sq for A320 and 18,133"sq for 737.

That is 25.7% more for NMA/NSA over A320, and 10.1% A320 over 737.

For this extra drag you get approximately 52.6% more internal Volume in a Container assuming 30" W than LD3 and about 6" higher.

In Y you get 16.7% more seats (less than 25.7% increase in Surface area - but the extra 10.1% of the A320 over 737 doesn't seem to hurt it that much).

Domestic Business you could do a nice 2x2x2 and Lay Flat First 1x1x1 is doable easily - 50% more premium seats over an A320/737 Cross Section for a 25.1% increase in Surface area.

More room for Business class Seats and more room in the belly for Cargo as you won't need as much length in the belly for baggage.

This is a big advantage over an A320 Tube with ACT's, assuming they design NMA/NSA with enough internal fuel volume without having to resort to ACT's.

On production cost I expect NMA/NSA production to be highly automated increasing Boeing's cost advantage over Airbus.

Finally development cost and time. This is especially important if Airbus re-wings the A320 for intro in 5-6 years. If Boeing choose to do an 8W NMA they probably wouldn't have the Engineering resources to do another clean sheet Single Aisle before the early 2030's to respond.

By basing the NMA and NSA on the same 7W cross section - NSA could come a lot sooner and at a lower cost. If NMA is already in
development it would not take that many more years to do a new wing/wingbox/gear/tail for NSA. Especially as your Engineering teams will have just done NMA and will take into account NSA when Designing NMA (Possibly Common Forward Gear Bay to allow longer gear for NMA).

Your new production processes can be proven on NMA before having to ramp up for NSA and you can further refine the design to get as much weight out as possible.

I wouldn't launch NSA right away - I would wait until Airbus is fully committed to whatever their response is to NMA and also to not cannabalize sales of MAX. However a Launch in 2022/2023 for 2028 Service entry seems doable.


I concur with your thoughts but with some variation.

If the MOM is 7ab oval that its initial models are 20% and 33% larger than the A321 it covers the growth of the existing NB's. Future models can then emphasise more capacity for less range or more range etc.

The dilemma of replacing the 737 without killing the backlog is to be more of a plane to justify a higher price. Only when the MOM reaches rate 30 can the NSA be efficiently introduced.

I am intrigued with the ability with CFRP barrels and automation, it allows the cross section to be changed far easier, yes all the certification but really no tooling cost to do the change. It opens the possibility of a different flat oval that is say 16" wider than the 737 being place on the MOM wing, a NB that can go 5,500 nm, the ultimate point to point machine. It also opens up the possibility of the MOM fuse going on the NSA wing for a 250 seat 2,500 mile people mover.
 
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rotating14
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:17 pm

Maybe I'm the only one with this idea but why couldn't Boeing manufacture a CFRP fuselage for the 777x? I'm thinking it could borrow a few techniques and technologies from the 787 and apply them to the 777x. A 777-9 or - 10 with the same wings but a CFRP Fuselage would be interesting.

I don't see too many more passenger versions of the 747-8i being sold and the next wb is the 777. Conventional wisdom says "they already have the 787". They do. However, the 789 will give you range but not more passengers and just the opposite with the 787-10. If Airbus does in fact hang those new engines on the A35K, the new wings of the 777x might not be enough to hold a lighter and more capable A350-1000 plus plus. (or whatever they end up naming it)
 
tealnz
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:46 am

At a guess the OEMs will move to re-engine the 787 and A350 in roughly the same timeframe. So they'll each retain a lead in their respective sweet spots. An ultra version of the 35K is going to make life more difficult for the 777X but, like the 380, it will presumably soldier on for a while because there is a market for a 400-seater.

Single aisle is more interesting. It seems pretty clear Airbus will launch the XLR. Given the weight savings from eliminating the ACTs you'd have to assume this will become the standard version of the A321. Boeing is at its limit with the MAX10 so it won't have a single aisle response to an A321 with 4700nm of range. The NMA will deal with the segment above the A321 but the absence of a competitor to the XLR will hurt the MAX in the market. Sure, Boeing won't want to undercut the MAX but at some point it will have to bite the bullet. On top of that it knows that Airbus is also doing studies on a future A321/322 with a CFRP wing - meaning the efficiency gains Boeing will need in a new single aisle will be steeper than they are right now.
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:58 am

The problem with 7Y is that you've got an empty aisle for every 3.5 passengers compared to 6 in a narrowbody or 4-5 in contemporary widebodies.
You can't fit additional business class seats versus a narrowbody except if you manage to squeeze in 2-1-2.

So all benefits of the oval shape would be lost in the double aisle.
Narrowbodies use the round shape quite efficiently, being tallest in the middle of the cabin and tapering into the sidewalls where pax are seated.

Perhaps Boeing can revisit with regulators putting pax and doors/windows in the lower deck either forward or aft of the wing in an oval-shaped fuselage.
Operators like Ryanair are flying around empty lower decks. What a waste.
Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:59 am

Boeing will start with the NMA, which will replace the 767-300 and 767-400 and also A330-200/800 and 787-8 on shorter-haul routes. A simple two-jet family (optimized base and simple stretch).

After the NMA and as the 777X program continues, I absolutely expect them to dedicate razor-sharp focus on an NSA to replace both 737 MAX and 757-200.

My prediction for the NSA is three models. First, an optimized base model seating 174 pax (29 full rows of 6-abreast seating at 32" min pitch), a touch smaller than the 738. Then a larger one, probably a simple stretch, seating 198 pax (33 rows of 6-abreast seating at 32" min pitch), roughly in the size category of the 739/737-10/A321. And then the largest of the lot will be 222 pax, 37 rows of 6-abreast seating at 32" min pitch, roughly in the size category of the A321acf and the 757-200. I'd also suspect that the largest jet will have a long range option to make it a reasonably direct 757-200 replacement.

I'd expect they'd make the NSA wider than the 737, too.

For anything beneath the small NSA model, presumably they'll rely on Embraer.

Regarding the bigger jets? Boeing and Airbus will probably both re-engine/neo/"update" the 787 and A350 platforms, and the market for jets bigger than the A350-1000 is limited. I wouldn't expect there to be any movement in that market segment until both the 787 and A350 have ran their course... and I suspect that the manufacturers will swap segments again, with Boeing developing the A350 replacement and Airbus developing the 787 replacement.
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:21 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
The problem with 7Y is that you've got an empty aisle for every 3.5 passengers compared to 6 in a narrowbody or 4-5 in contemporary widebodies.
You can't fit additional business class seats versus a narrowbody except if you manage to squeeze in 2-1-2.

So all benefits of the oval shape would be lost in the double aisle.
Narrowbodies use the round shape quite efficiently, being tallest in the middle of the cabin and tapering into the sidewalls where pax are seated.

Perhaps Boeing can revisit with regulators putting pax and doors/windows in the lower deck either forward or aft of the wing in an oval-shaped fuselage.
Operators like Ryanair are flying around empty lower decks. What a waste.


2X2X2 Domestic Business Class should fit no problem.

You are aware that the lower deck of an A320 or 737 or potential NMA is only about 50" in Height?
 
brindabella
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:30 pm

All very reasonable.
:checkmark:

tealnz wrote:
At a guess the OEMs will move to re-engine the 787 and A350 in roughly the same timeframe. So they'll each retain a lead in their respective sweet spots. An ultra version of the 35K is going to make life more difficult for the 777X but, like the 380, it will presumably soldier on for a while because there is a market for a 400-seater.


The A350-1000 will surely become an even more formidable competitor to an (AL-fuse) 777X..

However in general the A350 pair definitely do not need more range.
So in that respect the additional expenditure/higher price tag might go to waste - at least to some degree.

The 787-10, however, will become even more impressive than it is now.
That is the one to watch, IMHO.


tealnz wrote:
Single aisle is more interesting. It seems pretty clear Airbus will launch the XLR. Given the weight savings from eliminating the ACTs you'd have to assume this will become the standard version of the A321. Boeing is at its limit with the MAX10 so it won't have a single aisle response to an A321 with 4700nm of range. The NMA will deal with the segment above the A321 but the absence of a competitor to the XLR will hurt the MAX in the market. Sure, Boeing won't want to undercut the MAX but at some point it will have to bite the bullet. On top of that it knows that Airbus is also doing studies on a future A321/322 with a CFRP wing - meaning the efficiency gains Boeing will need in a new single aisle will be steeper than they are right now.


Which would seem to propel BA to an NSA earlier rather than later.
And I see little reason to doubt that Muilenberg is flogging his teams along at top pace - or even faster - with just that in mind(!). :D

Thoughts?

cheers
Billy
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:34 pm

Boeing will need some 737 follow on by that timeframe. It must be 100 percent right from the beginning. I expect it to be made of CFRP. That must be made in a way both to be cheap to produce and assemble. It will likely look like some mini-787.
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:54 pm

morrisond wrote:
Finally development cost and time. This is especially important if Airbus re-wings the A320 for intro in 5-6 years. If Boeing choose to do an 8W NMA they probably wouldn't have the Engineering resources to do another clean sheet Single Aisle before the early 2030's to respond.

By basing the NMA and NSA on the same 7W cross section - NSA could come a lot sooner and at a lower cost. If NMA is already in
development it would not take that many more years to do a new wing/wingbox/gear/tail for NSA. Especially as your Engineering teams will have just done NMA and will take into account NSA when Designing NMA (Possibly Common Forward Gear Bay to allow longer gear for NMA).
.


I think you are dramatically overemphasizing the effect of common geometry for the fuselage. The profile of the missions for the NMA and 737 are sufficiently different that the payload differences will be rather large. This will change the entire loading of the fuselage, which is where the engineering analysis is done. The loading on the frames, stringers, Longerons, and skin would be entirely different, which doesn’t take into account designing a whole new wing and wingbox. Common geometry helps with tooling, but that does not take years of development.

Look how much the fuselage has to be strengthened on a passenger to freighter conversion (green metal is the strengthened section):



The airplane systems architecture, landing gear, wings, tail, etc takes significant development time. Engineering re-use is a good thing, but it takes time to optimize an airplane. Boeing doesn’t spend enough on R&D to run Two simultaneous clean sheet development programs. A common fuselage diameter is not going to make that work.
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:25 pm

Speculation: a 797 will eat into the 737 ten and 321neo niche. Because the 321 is the more capable of that pair, it will lose a little more of its niche. The NSA for Boeing will be a little smaller than the NSA for Airbus. Likely in the next ten years Airbus will do some sort of NMA. Question will be where will they position it? And how will that relate to their NSA.
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morrisond
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:11 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Finally development cost and time. This is especially important if Airbus re-wings the A320 for intro in 5-6 years. If Boeing choose to do an 8W NMA they probably wouldn't have the Engineering resources to do another clean sheet Single Aisle before the early 2030's to respond.

By basing the NMA and NSA on the same 7W cross section - NSA could come a lot sooner and at a lower cost. If NMA is already in
development it would not take that many more years to do a new wing/wingbox/gear/tail for NSA. Especially as your Engineering teams will have just done NMA and will take into account NSA when Designing NMA (Possibly Common Forward Gear Bay to allow longer gear for NMA).
.


I think you are dramatically overemphasizing the effect of common geometry for the fuselage. The profile of the missions for the NMA and 737 are sufficiently different that the payload differences will be rather large. This will change the entire loading of the fuselage, which is where the engineering analysis is done. The loading on the frames, stringers, Longerons, and skin would be entirely different, which doesn’t take into account designing a whole new wing and wingbox. Common geometry helps with tooling, but that does not take years of development.

Look how much the fuselage has to be strengthened on a passenger to freighter conversion (green metal is the strengthened section):



The airplane systems architecture, landing gear, wings, tail, etc takes significant development time. Engineering re-use is a good thing, but it takes time to optimize an airplane. Boeing doesn’t spend enough on R&D to run Two simultaneous clean sheet development programs. A common fuselage diameter is not going to make that work.



Good points. However I'm assuming that NMA isn't as big as some are with NMA-Small not that much bigger than A321 - call it A322 capacity and NMA - L a size above that with lower range.

NSA - L would be same length as NMA - S - maybe a little shorter due to shorter middle section/wing box and NSA - S somewhere between 738/739 - Call it a real 200 seat single class airplane. NSA -L would have same length Front and rear sections as NMA - S.

Systems essentially the same which should save a ton of engineering time - other than accounting for Cabin Environmental needs for different fuselage lengths. Cabin Doors common, Cargo Doors common, Nose common, Cockpit common, etc. A mainly Electric architecture modelled on 787.

NSA would have lighter gear, smaller wing, smaller engines and not over ranged - call it 3,000 NM for NSA-L and 3,500 Nm for NSA-S.

3-4 years after NMA should be doable. It should be a common production system. Essentially it would be one program with two different wings.

They did 757/767 at the same time and they were even more different than my proposed NMA/NSA and without the benefit of today's digital design tools.
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:42 am

morrisond wrote:
...
I see Airbus extending/increasing MTOW of A220 to replace A320 and then launching a 7W to compete with Boeing replacing high end A320/A321 and A330.


Lets not forget at this stage the A320 and A321 are the leaders of the pack with an enorous backlog and cargo container option as selling point. No A220 can take a containers & going back to bulk loading as the standard is no option.

Any new Boeing NSA, NMA MoM or inbetween will have optional containers. Because the global market demands so. In between the lines Boeing admits in their NMA discussions.

I always assume Boeing planned a -10 version of the 777X. Otherwise the big wing, engines and high weight wouldn't be justified.

Image
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:25 pm

morrisond wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Finally development cost and time. This is especially important if Airbus re-wings the A320 for intro in 5-6 years. If Boeing choose to do an 8W NMA they probably wouldn't have the Engineering resources to do another clean sheet Single Aisle before the early 2030's to respond.

By basing the NMA and NSA on the same 7W cross section - NSA could come a lot sooner and at a lower cost. If NMA is already in
development it would not take that many more years to do a new wing/wingbox/gear/tail for NSA. Especially as your Engineering teams will have just done NMA and will take into account NSA when Designing NMA (Possibly Common Forward Gear Bay to allow longer gear for NMA).
.


I think you are dramatically overemphasizing the effect of common geometry for the fuselage. The profile of the missions for the NMA and 737 are sufficiently different that the payload differences will be rather large. This will change the entire loading of the fuselage, which is where the engineering analysis is done. The loading on the frames, stringers, Longerons, and skin would be entirely different, which doesn’t take into account designing a whole new wing and wingbox. Common geometry helps with tooling, but that does not take years of development.

Look how much the fuselage has to be strengthened on a passenger to freighter conversion (green metal is the strengthened section):



The airplane systems architecture, landing gear, wings, tail, etc takes significant development time. Engineering re-use is a good thing, but it takes time to optimize an airplane. Boeing doesn’t spend enough on R&D to run Two simultaneous clean sheet development programs. A common fuselage diameter is not going to make that work.



Good points. However I'm assuming that NMA isn't as big as some are with NMA-Small not that much bigger than A321 - call it A322 capacity and NMA - L a size above that with lower range.

NSA - L would be same length as NMA - S - maybe a little shorter due to shorter middle section/wing box and NSA - S somewhere between 738/739 - Call it a real 200 seat single class airplane. NSA -L would have same length Front and rear sections as NMA - S.

Systems essentially the same which should save a ton of engineering time - other than accounting for Cabin Environmental needs for different fuselage lengths. Cabin Doors common, Cargo Doors common, Nose common, Cockpit common, etc. A mainly Electric architecture modelled on 787.

NSA would have lighter gear, smaller wing, smaller engines and not over ranged - call it 3,000 NM for NSA-L and 3,500 Nm for NSA-S.

3-4 years after NMA should be doable. It should be a common production system. Essentially it would be one program with two different wings.

They did 757/767 at the same time and they were even more different than my proposed NMA/NSA and without the benefit of today's digital design tools.


There are some articles about how the NMA would translate into an NSA

Industry observers say Boeing may view the NMA, also dubbed the "797", as a means to initiate a broad business overhaul aimed ultimately at positioning the company to develop a 737 replacement.

That overhaul could see Boeing adopt new aircraft design technologies, rewrite relationships with suppliers and capture a larger slice of the aftermarket pie, they say.

"It's a two-aircraft deal," Kevin Michaels, managing director at consultancy AeroDynamic Advisory says of the NMA. "You work out this new business model on the 797, and you take this to the new single-aisle later on."

Teal Group vice-president Richard Aboulafia agrees the NMA could be Boeing's "driver" of broader business changes, particularly supply chain changes aimed at reducing costs.

"This is why so much of Boeing's efforts right now are focused on getting the cost down and the operating economics right," he says.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 37-455844/

I am reading about changes to supply chain, manufacturing costs, manufacturing technology, vertical integration, services, etc. These would be re-used

The company is considering the NMA though a "lifecycle lens," it says. "We’re thinking through how to design and architect an airplane so that it’s not only efficient to build and produce, but it's also efficient to support, maintain and upgrade over time, and that really creates value for customers."

Boeing adds it is unlikely to make technological leaps with its next new aircraft.

"We don't see the next new airplane, if we do middle of the market, as being a technology push airplane," it says. "There is significant technology reuse on things like composites manufacturing, and we would be more focused on manufacturing transformation for the NMA."


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 37-455844/

It sounds like a business model is being developed for the NMA that may be used for a 737 replacement, not the fuselage geometry although I’m sure many components would be reused.
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:13 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:

I think you are dramatically overemphasizing the effect of common geometry for the fuselage. The profile of the missions for the NMA and 737 are sufficiently different that the payload differences will be rather large. This will change the entire loading of the fuselage, which is where the engineering analysis is done. The loading on the frames, stringers, Longerons, and skin would be entirely different, which doesn’t take into account designing a whole new wing and wingbox. Common geometry helps with tooling, but that does not take years of development.

Look how much the fuselage has to be strengthened on a passenger to freighter conversion (green metal is the strengthened section):



The airplane systems architecture, landing gear, wings, tail, etc takes significant development time. Engineering re-use is a good thing, but it takes time to optimize an airplane. Boeing doesn’t spend enough on R&D to run Two simultaneous clean sheet development programs. A common fuselage diameter is not going to make that work.



Good points. However I'm assuming that NMA isn't as big as some are with NMA-Small not that much bigger than A321 - call it A322 capacity and NMA - L a size above that with lower range.

NSA - L would be same length as NMA - S - maybe a little shorter due to shorter middle section/wing box and NSA - S somewhere between 738/739 - Call it a real 200 seat single class airplane. NSA -L would have same length Front and rear sections as NMA - S.

Systems essentially the same which should save a ton of engineering time - other than accounting for Cabin Environmental needs for different fuselage lengths. Cabin Doors common, Cargo Doors common, Nose common, Cockpit common, etc. A mainly Electric architecture modelled on 787.

NSA would have lighter gear, smaller wing, smaller engines and not over ranged - call it 3,000 NM for NSA-L and 3,500 Nm for NSA-S.

3-4 years after NMA should be doable. It should be a common production system. Essentially it would be one program with two different wings.

They did 757/767 at the same time and they were even more different than my proposed NMA/NSA and without the benefit of today's digital design tools.


There are some articles about how the NMA would translate into an NSA

Industry observers say Boeing may view the NMA, also dubbed the "797", as a means to initiate a broad business overhaul aimed ultimately at positioning the company to develop a 737 replacement.

That overhaul could see Boeing adopt new aircraft design technologies, rewrite relationships with suppliers and capture a larger slice of the aftermarket pie, they say.

"It's a two-aircraft deal," Kevin Michaels, managing director at consultancy AeroDynamic Advisory says of the NMA. "You work out this new business model on the 797, and you take this to the new single-aisle later on."

Teal Group vice-president Richard Aboulafia agrees the NMA could be Boeing's "driver" of broader business changes, particularly supply chain changes aimed at reducing costs.

"This is why so much of Boeing's efforts right now are focused on getting the cost down and the operating economics right," he says.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 37-455844/

I am reading about changes to supply chain, manufacturing costs, manufacturing technology, vertical integration, services, etc. These would be re-used

The company is considering the NMA though a "lifecycle lens," it says. "We’re thinking through how to design and architect an airplane so that it’s not only efficient to build and produce, but it's also efficient to support, maintain and upgrade over time, and that really creates value for customers."

Boeing adds it is unlikely to make technological leaps with its next new aircraft.

"We don't see the next new airplane, if we do middle of the market, as being a technology push airplane," it says. "There is significant technology reuse on things like composites manufacturing, and we would be more focused on manufacturing transformation for the NMA."


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 37-455844/

It sounds like a business model is being developed for the NMA that may be used for a 737 replacement, not the fuselage geometry although I’m sure many components would be reused.


The interesting part IMO is that today you can not study this in the relative comfort of being a market leader. Things have changed. If you are "lazy" on moonshot technology or production efficiency, you are vulnerable. If you are conservative on new technology, the other will wait a few years, talk to your supply chain and customers, do evaluations and learn from your mistakes (assumptions that were 70% correct). Also for a new NSA, if you go too "capable" somebody more efficient will dive under you (e.g. CSeries) . If you go too small you be forced to upgrade more than you hoped (737-10).


That's said, I think the pressure on Boeing to offer a 150-200 seater with big efficient geared engines & container cargo as an option won't decrease, so better don't think about it, too deliberately.

:arrow: The train ain't waiting. The MAX backlog might be less solid & ensuring than you feel.

Image
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:16 am

keesje wrote:
That's said, I think the pressure on Boeing to offer a 150-200 seater with big efficient geared engines & container cargo as an option won't decrease, so better don't think about it, too deliberately.

:arrow: The train ain't waiting. The MAX backlog might be less solid & ensuring than you feel.


The good news for Boeing is that CFM LeapX is a very popular engine and cargo containers are now certified on the 737.

Image

Image


Image

http://magazine.groundhandling.com/news ... boeing-737

Perhaps that is why the 737 MAX has surpassed 5,000 orders and outsold the A320neo last year which allows Boeing to focus on the larger NMA. Boeing knows how solid that backlog is and how many sales campaigns they have for more 737s.
Last edited by Newbiepilot on Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:37 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
.


Yes, and it's even more containers than on an A321! :dopey:
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Jouhou
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:31 am

rotating14 wrote:
Maybe I'm the only one with this idea but why couldn't Boeing manufacture a CFRP fuselage for the 777x? I'm thinking it could borrow a few techniques and technologies from the 787 and apply them to the 777x. A 777-9 or - 10 with the same wings but a CFRP Fuselage would be interesting.

I don't see too many more passenger versions of the 747-8i being sold and the next wb is the 777. Conventional wisdom says "they already have the 787". They do. However, the 789 will give you range but not more passengers and just the opposite with the 787-10. If Airbus does in fact hang those new engines on the A35K, the new wings of the 777x might not be enough to hold a lighter and more capable A350-1000 plus plus. (or whatever they end up naming it)


You're not alone, I always felt they should have gone with a cfrp fuselage in 777x. I feel like the 777x is a cop-out.
 
SXDFC
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:36 am

I APOLOGIZE if this has been asked before.. What about a CFRP 737?

Lastly what about a 737MAX freighter? I’ve seen pictures of a presentation about it from a FX pilot.. Perhaps thats in the works as well?
 
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:03 pm

How difficult would it be to offer a military version of the 747-8f with the "I" hump for personal transport? How few frames world it take to make the design work worthwhile for military certification?

I know the C-40 combi world not be allowed in passenger service, but it was also something like 70 frames for the order, and the military is not going to order that many 747s.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing Lineup Circa 2025 - Where do they go Next

Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:22 pm

SXDFC wrote:
I APOLOGIZE if this has been asked before.. What about a CFRP 737?

It would be hard to make a mostly CFRP aircraft and still claim it is a 737.

On the other hand we see with 777x that one can change the wings and engines and retain the family designation.

Yet that was feasible because 77x already had fairly modern digital systems that were relatively easy to upgrade.

One would think the gain of making an all new 737 replacement with modern digital systems will exceed the pain of the R&D costs.

Yet we can't rule out a '737x' some day.

SXDFC wrote:
Lastly what about a 737MAX freighter? I’ve seen pictures of a presentation about it from a FX pilot.. Perhaps thats in the works as well?

Boeing is already delivering 738-BCF ( ref: https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2018-04-19 ... -Freighter and https://www.aircargonews.net/airlines/f ... freighter/ ).

Image

I think with the large number of NGs ready to hit the secondary market a new build MAX-8F does not make economic sense.
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Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos