EWRandMDW
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"after hours" air service

Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:41 pm

Many airports have curfews severely limiting late night and early morning arrivals and departures. Let's say curfews are in place between 22:30 and 05:30 the next morning.

There are many services departing a curfew-enforced airport before the cut-off time which arrive at the destination sometime early the next morning. I recall several years ago a post on this site regarding flights to and from India which arrive and depart between midnight and 5:00 AM. The author of that post asked why people in India have to endure overnight noise and other forms of disturbance while folks in Europe and North America don't. The answers, as far as I can remember, were that it worked for business people and was otherwise economically beneficial for the airlines involved.

Suppose India or some other country where there's a lot of overnight flights decides to impose its own curfew on air service mandating that flights need to arrive before a certain time and depart no earlier than another time in the morning. They justify it by saying their populations need to sleep too. How would such possibly conflicting curfews impact air service? I'm really curious to read what you say.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: "after hours" air service

Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:57 pm

IIRC, late departures is not uncommon in South Asia and Southeast Asia. If airlines want to connect passengers via their European hubs, they often need to have a late night departure bank.
 
Andy33
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Re: "after hours" air service

Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:09 pm

EWRandMDW wrote:
Suppose India or some other country where there's a lot of overnight flights decides to impose its own curfew on air service mandating that flights need to arrive before a certain time and depart no earlier than another time in the morning. They justify it by saying their populations need to sleep too. How would such possibly conflicting curfews impact air service? I'm really curious to read what you say.


Then India, or whichever country you're thinking of, won't have air service to the other curfew-limited airports at all, unless it is possible to work out some window of time which suits the curfews at both ends.
Airports such as FRA or LHR have curfews now, sometimes embedded in laws or in legally binding agreements. Flights to/from India, although important, are only a very small part of the overall number of flights, so nobody is likely to agree to change the laws or agreements just for them. Oh, and these airports may well be slot-constrained too. If it is possible to work out a window in which flights can depart from one end and arrive at the other without infringing curfews at either, there might be no slots available at the times required.
 
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Channex757
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Re: "after hours" air service

Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:33 pm

One other way round is the QC system. Allocate an airport a certain number of QC points per year; each aircraft type a QC rating and deduct each movement inside curfew hours from that total. There can be a ban on aircraft with excessive QC ratings and also severe enforcement of noise abatement where an airline has been determined not to have a valid reason to break the rules.

It would potentially mean aircraft like the A350 and 787 with their quiet engines could operate a limited number of services from a curfewed airport.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: "after hours" air service

Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:37 pm

EWRandMDW wrote:
Suppose India or some other country where there's a lot of overnight flights decides to impose its own curfew on air service mandating that flights need to arrive before a certain time and depart no earlier than another time in the morning. They justify it by saying their populations need to sleep too. How would such possibly conflicting curfews impact air service?


There's less service and average fares go up. Whether that's a net gain (better sleep for the airport-proximate residents vs. higher fares for flyers) is hard to say.
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: "after hours" air service

Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:41 pm

Andy33 wrote:
EWRandMDW wrote:
Suppose India or some other country where there's a lot of overnight flights decides to impose its own curfew on air service mandating that flights need to arrive before a certain time and depart no earlier than another time in the morning. They justify it by saying their populations need to sleep too. How would such possibly conflicting curfews impact air service? I'm really curious to read what you say.


Then India, or whichever country you're thinking of, won't have air service to the other curfew-limited airports at all, unless it is possible to work out some window of time which suits the curfews at both ends.
Airports such as FRA or LHR have curfews now, sometimes embedded in laws or in legally binding agreements. Flights to/from India, although important, are only a very small part of the overall number of flights, so nobody is likely to agree to change the laws or agreements just for them. Oh, and these airports may well be slot-constrained too. If it is possible to work out a window in which flights can depart from one end and arrive at the other without infringing curfews at either, there might be no slots available at the times required.


Interesting the view of "India won't have air service to airports such as FRA or LHR" instead of "Germany or France won't have service to India". Bottom line is that it's not going to happen either way.

If curfews are imposed in Asia and middle east airports, schedules around the world will adjust and air service will face minimal impacts. For example, Europe-India/ME would depart after 1600 and arrive in the morning, India/ME-Europe would depart early morning and be at destinations early afternoon.
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Web500sjc
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Re: "after hours" air service

Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:25 pm

There is a way to make these flight work if there is a curfew on both sides, it just hurts the ability of airlines to offer connections and passengers to have more options. Currently, DEL-FRA is 2x daily between 2 airlines (LH and AI). LH leaves DEL at 330 and arrives FRA at 735, meaning all the LH passengers can connect to any flight that day (including anyplace in the NA bank). AI leaves at 1335 and arrives FRA at 1800, which leaves passengers without a westward connection, and limits them to intra-Europe, Southbound or eastbound connections. As you can see, the LH flight is built mostly for connections in FRA (but can receive a lot of connections in DEL) and the AI flight is built for connections in DEL. If there were a curfew at the Indian airport and European airport, it would limit India->NA passengers to either a Non stop routing, a routing through east Asia, or an extremely long connection (12+ hours) in Europe.

The limiting of connections is not just a NA->India issue, a lot of connections in DXB would not work if DXB had a curfew. If one wants to travel from JNB-DXB-LHR, it is basically required that you stay overnight if you want to avoid curfews. JNB-DXB arrives 10 hours after departure, and DXB-LHR arrives 4 hours after departure, meaning the journey is going to take 14 hours as your watch sees it. So if you departed at 7am in JNB and walked straight off one flight on to the next, you wouldn't arrive in LHR til 9pm.

Similarly, if you look at long north to south routes, you can see that passengers naturally avoid awkward flights that leave at inopportune times or do not allow connections on one end. That is why most flights from NA to SA and EUR to South Africa leave in the evening and arrive in the morning in both directions, it allows passengers to have inbound and outbound connections on the north end of the route and the south end of the route.
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raylee67
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Re: "after hours" air service

Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:57 pm

Potential curfew is less of a problem for East Asian airports. Avoiding curfew is one of the reasons to build the new airports on reclaimed lands in the middle of the sea (e.g. KIX, HKG, ICN, etc.) or at least have runways sticking out towards the sea (e.g. HND), so really don't see those curfews coming back.
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alan3
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Re: "after hours" air service

Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:24 pm

Would indeed be complicated to avoid curfews on all sides. India imposing curfews would pose a problem as customers connecting from North America wouldn't be able to connect through Europe without hitting a European curfew. The gulf airports for example are a hive of activity in the middle of the night as it's by far in their best interest to do so for the sake of connections.

Ultimately they will do what works in their best interest. The airports too want to earn money and losing slots because their customers can't find the right timing isn't in anyone's interest.

Even in the West, it's not uncommon. YVR for example, has a number night departures to Asia and Australia. Between 23:30 and 02:30 YVR has 3 Australian and at least another 5 or 6 Asian flights that depart. BR, CI, CX and PR all depart their flights around or after 01:00am. And that's despite the fact that airport services and public transit are largely closed, and a flight path is often directly over residential neighborhoods.
 
TWA902fly
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Re: "after hours" air service

Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:18 pm

alan3 wrote:
Would indeed be complicated to avoid curfews on all sides. India imposing curfews would pose a problem as customers connecting from North America wouldn't be able to connect through Europe without hitting a European curfew. The gulf airports for example are a hive of activity in the middle of the night as it's by far in their best interest to do so for the sake of connections.

Ultimately they will do what works in their best interest. The airports too want to earn money and losing slots because their customers can't find the right timing isn't in anyone's interest.

Even in the West, it's not uncommon. YVR for example, has a number night departures to Asia and Australia. Between 23:30 and 02:30 YVR has 3 Australian and at least another 5 or 6 Asian flights that depart. BR, CI, CX and PR all depart their flights around or after 01:00am. And that's despite the fact that airport services and public transit are largely closed, and a flight path is often directly over residential neighborhoods.


I would even go as far as to say that most airports in the US and Canada do not have curfews. In Australia, the only major airport with a curfew I believe is SYD. I think the most strict curfews tend to be in Europe.I can also think of HND off the top of my head in Asia.

'902
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Carpethead
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Re: "after hours" air service

Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:30 pm

TWA902fly wrote:
I can also think of HND off the top of my head in Asia.
'902

Top of your head is quite wrong. But I think you are alluding to the other Tokyo Airport - NRT, which has a curfew 2300 to 0600.
Actually, HND is only one of few in Japan that is open 24 hours.

Another reason there are quite a number of operations in the middle of the night at Middle East and India airports are previous generation airplanes had severe performance restrictions in the hot environment.
New aircraft performance matter little now but historical tendencies have carried on.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: "after hours" air service

Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:32 am

alan3 wrote:
YVR for example, has a number night departures to Asia and Australia. Between 23:30 and 02:30 YVR has 3 Australian and at least another 5 or 6 Asian flights that depart. BR, CI, CX and PR all depart their flights around or after 01:00am.


One needs to be at the airport before the arrival of the last train, anyway. CI, BR, PI, CX all were scheduled by 0115 today.
 
airtrantpa
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Re: "after hours" air service

Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:36 am

Didn't we just have a topic on this a few days ago discussing flights departing at 0330 or something like this
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SurfandSnow
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Re: "after hours" air service

Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:58 am

TWA902fly wrote:
alan3 wrote:
Would indeed be complicated to avoid curfews on all sides. India imposing curfews would pose a problem as customers connecting from North America wouldn't be able to connect through Europe without hitting a European curfew. The gulf airports for example are a hive of activity in the middle of the night as it's by far in their best interest to do so for the sake of connections.

Ultimately they will do what works in their best interest. The airports too want to earn money and losing slots because their customers can't find the right timing isn't in anyone's interest.

Even in the West, it's not uncommon. YVR for example, has a number night departures to Asia and Australia. Between 23:30 and 02:30 YVR has 3 Australian and at least another 5 or 6 Asian flights that depart. BR, CI, CX and PR all depart their flights around or after 01:00am. And that's despite the fact that airport services and public transit are largely closed, and a flight path is often directly over residential neighborhoods.


I would even go as far as to say that most airports in the US and Canada do not have curfews. In Australia, the only major airport with a curfew I believe is SYD. I think the most strict curfews tend to be in Europe.I can also think of HND off the top of my head in Asia.

'902


Curfews are extremely rare at U.S. airports. Are there any other LHR/SYD-style curfews than SNA, which was grandfathered in before a blanket nationwide FAA policy against local curfews was enacted?
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PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: "after hours" air service

Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:40 am

EWRandMDW wrote:
Many airports have curfews severely limiting late night and early morning arrivals and departures. Let's say curfews are in place between 22:30 and 05:30 the next morning.

There are many services departing a curfew-enforced airport before the cut-off time which arrive at the destination sometime early the next morning. I recall several years ago a post on this site regarding flights to and from India which arrive and depart between midnight and 5:00 AM. The author of that post asked why people in India have to endure overnight noise and other forms of disturbance while folks in Europe and North America don't. The answers, as far as I can remember, were that it worked for business people and was otherwise economically beneficial for the airlines involved.

Suppose India or some other country where there's a lot of overnight flights decides to impose its own curfew on air service mandating that flights need to arrive before a certain time and depart no earlier than another time in the morning. They justify it by saying their populations need to sleep too. How would such possibly conflicting curfews impact air service? I'm really curious to read what you say.


Several points come to mind for me:

1) Connecting traffic. It is not just India, but the entire Middle East: look at any European airline's departure times - they are timed so that they can have an early arrival into (fill in any major European airport here), connecting much of this traffic to North and South America. A prime example: Lufthansa has a very large number of devoted fliers on the BLR-MUC/FRA-SFO route, all of it high-tech related. Of course they're going to compete with the ME3 carriers, but it requires that particular departure time.

2) Early morning fog at DEL is legendary. Departing in the middle of the night not only works timing-wise for the hub airport, but avoids the worst of the nightmarish delays and rebookings that will result.

3) Monsoon season is a hassle that is mostly avoidable by arriving after dark, when it has cooled off (relatively speaking), and shower activity is less than in the heat of the day.

4) As far as the Middle East carriers are concerned, however, avoiding the heat of the day - especially in summer - is the number one priority. 3 AM in August at DXB is a much better time to launch an A380, no matter how long a runway is. Too hot is just too hot.

I realize those deal with ops at airports that are long used to night operations. As far as imposed curfews, some additional points more towards the original question:

1) The 23:30-06;30 curfew at SAN isn't a burden to the extent many people believe. Realistically, the only routes we cannot have are San Diego to the Central Time Zone on a red-eye, which from LAX have a 1:00 AM departure. However, given that AA and UA both run red-eyes to ORD (on again/off again), it shows that some people are willing to put themselves through a 4:40 AM arrival at ORD. First connecting bank won't leave until 7:00 or so, so this flight might have enough O&D to justify racing the curfew. The only other red-eye possibilities are SAN-MSP, SAN-DFW, and SAN-IAH. That's it. DL's red-eyes are to hubs ATL and DTW (on again/off again) (did they ever do CVG as a red-eye?), AA does MIA, UA does ORD and EWR, B6 has their traditional overnight flights, DEN and SLC have no overnight banks, so realistically every base is covered.

2) Times of "dealing with things" is cultural. My husband was a server at a 24 hour diner for a while, and he occasionally would cover a very late night shift on Friday or Saturday night into the next morning. He was utterly astounded at the number of Mexican families eating at 2 AM, with children awake and acting normally! This isn't every night, mind you, but this is a tradition on the weekends. There's nothing wrong with this in the slightest, obviously; however, because the vast majority of diners are of one ethnicity, this implies a cultural tradition. The same is true in other parts of the world as well - any desert dweller will tell you nighttime is the best time of day in summer!

3) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition

This is a concept my 9th-grade students learn from me, and although this is a complicated topic, suffice it to say that all populations go through five stages:

Stage 1 is hunting and gathering tribes. With the exception of the isolated Andaman island tribes, no country is in Stage 1.

Stage 2 is sedentary farming, with high birth rates, high death rates, and lots of children needed to work on the farms. Most countries were primarily in Stage 2 until the dawn of the 20th century.

Stage 3 is industrialization, with the main change in population coming in the form of women's roles changing: more education, less child marriage, fewer children being born later. This is also coupled with a sharp rise in life expectancy, The older portion of the population rises while the number of children born in the country drops dramatically.

Stage 4 is post-industrialization, with an even higher life expectancy and larger elderly population, but fewer and fewer children are being born. Countries in this stage experience a drop in the total fertility rate (the average number of children a woman is expected to produce in her lifetime), coming close to and then dropping below the natural replacement rate of two children per couple (their replacements). Because of this precipitous drop, jobs that once were easily filled go unfilled, as employers turn to immigrants to fill these positions. Most of Europe is in this stage, and both Canada and the U.S. would be as well, were it not for immigration.

Stage 5 is a theorized stage, where the population drop of stage four has reached the point of no return. Both Japan and Korea are approaching stage five, with Japan's population expected to decline massively in the next 50 years.

The point of this (and thank you for sticking with me) is that a trend I notice is that the more the country "ages" - stage 3 and 4 - the more opposition there is to anything. Public works projects upset grandpa and grandma's peaceful slumber, and they think all us whippersnappers should quiet down! But here's the thing: in every country you find these people, they vote! And they turn out, and they make their voices disproportionately heard - at least they do in the U.S.

Anyone remember the episode of the Simpsons where after a battle between the adults and kids the geriatric crowd outvotes them and imposes a 65-and-under 5 PM curfew? It's not really that far off...
 
ytib
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Re: "after hours" air service

Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:04 am

SurfandSnow wrote:

Curfews are extremely rare at U.S. airports. Are there any other LHR/SYD-style curfews than SNA, which was grandfathered in before a blanket nationwide FAA policy against local curfews was enacted?


SAN has some restrictions on departures. Arrivals can happen at any time.

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pwm2txlhopper
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Re: "after hours" air service

Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:06 am

I don't know of many curfews in the USA. I think that's a European thing. In the thrid world, I doubt they're going to impose any curfew or regulation about anything. Especially jet noise.
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: "after hours" air service

Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:01 am

I believe Long Beach has curfews, which is what caused B6 so many issues with their late night arrivals from KJFK.

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