nomorerjs
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:54 am

AA has mega hubs at CLT and DFW and will do what it takes to preserve them. Yes, WN is 13 miles from DFW, but limited gates and WN isn’t exactly NK.

MIA has FLL nearby, keeps AA in check

ORD is a dual hub and WNs biggest non-hub at MDW, keeps AA in check

PHX has WN big non-hub, keeps AA in check

PHL close to so many options, keeps AA in check

LAX has too many options

DCA limited in slots, AA can get a premium
 
kondoo
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:26 am

SurfandSnow wrote:
Given AA's reaction to Y4 adding GDL-CLT, this move hardly comes as a surprise. After all, surely NK is a far greater threat to AA's CLT operation than Y4 is...



AA's reaction to Y4 shows you the stupidity of their strategy. They thought they were going to scare them away from CLT. Y4 did not blink and AA will exit the market in April.
 
Iloveboeing
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:39 am

nikeherc wrote:
This kind of tit-for-tat has been going on forever. It goes back to People Express, Laker, Fly I, Air South and on and on. Legacies don't let LCCs come in and eat their lunch. The standard response is to increase service, add new destinations and slash fares. The flying public being the sheep that they are think "Hmm, I can get the same fare on Delta that I would pay People Express. I know Delta, so I'll take them." Of course the strategy works and the LCC is forced out. When the LCC leaves, fares go back up, destinations are deleted and capacity goes back down to increase yields. Of course the LCC goes out of business, the legacy struggles to make up for the period when their yields were trashed and demand is suppressed again.


UA did exactly this to Independence Air at IAD. Plus, IIRC, they offered double or triple MileagePlus miles. It was insane. After they forced Independence out of business, capacity dropped and fares went up. It's amazing how the flying sheeple fall for this....every....single....time. Then they complain about high fares.
 
n7371f
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:06 am

F9 does 2,3,4 times a week. Big difference from daily - and all to major markets. I've been one to belittle the F9 copy of Allegiant but in this case, being daily as NK in the behemoth's crosshairs.

USAirALB wrote:
To be honest, I honestly don't even get why AA is retaliating against NK anyways. F9 has been doing CLT-TPA/MCO/PHL/DEN for a while now and AA hasn't really retaliated against them. I don't see why NK is any different. I hate to be blunt but NK and AA have different target markets, especially in CLT. There are going to be those that are loyal to AA to the end, and will continue to fly AA. CLT is a little over a 7 hour drive from MCO, so I am willing to bet that the majority of NK pax are likely those that would have likely driven instead.

I seem to recall that US had a similar predatory response when B6 launched CLT-FLL. US added flights and matched fares, and B6 was gone from CLT-FLL rather quickly.

8 daily flights on CLT-LAX is crazy. I get that it is a hub to hub route but still. I'm guessing the increases on CLT-LAX/ORD are to keep NK off those routes?

Also equally confusing is to where these extra flights are going to go. IIRC AA made it clear that they weren't able to expand at CLT until they gained new gates in A.

Here is an official AA PR: http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/20 ... fault.aspx
 
santi319
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:32 am

Shuttle wrote:
santi319 wrote:
Haha, are people here in A-net, still saying “NK serves a different market” in 2019??

Sure. 90s Ryanair used to “serve a different market” in Europe... go look where are they now...


This. AA (and other legacies) have learned from what happened in Europe. BA thought the average easyJet customer was different to BA's core customer... until it was too late and now they are fighting over the same passengers.

Shuttle

Exactly my friend. And this whole thread is further proof that they do serve similar markets..

Millenials also don’t care about flat beds and 30 meals on an hour flight... the writing is on the wall...
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:03 am

Why should AA be forced? Spirit has gained access.
 
Detroit313
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:07 am

DFW and CLT are becoming HUGE. 1500 daily departures combined.
 
9w748capt
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:29 am

YYZORD wrote:
I think that AA has potential for a CLT-YVR route, you got CX and JL flying into YVR and CLT offers easy connections to Carribean, FL & SC destinations.


LOL? Who on earth would double connect in YVR and CLT when there are one-stop options available? If AA starts CLT-YVR it sure as hell won't be to attract connections from CX or JL.
 
raddek
Posts: 325
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:52 am

What NK is today, is much like WN used to be in the 90's and early 2000s. Instead of the Southwest effect on routes, it's now, the "Spirit Effect."

NK did their research, and knew what they were up against. They are calculating that the reward is above the risk.

I believe that NK will dig in their heels in CLT.
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:36 pm

santi319 wrote:
Haha, are people here in A-net, still saying “NK serves a different market” in 2019??

Sure. 90s Ryanair used to “serve a different market” in Europe... go look where are they now...


When NK (or Ryanair for that matter) get a long haul fleet and start crossing oceans, you may be right. Until then, they still serve different markets (regional vs global).
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:05 pm

[threeid][/threeid]
Detroit313 wrote:
DFW and CLT are becoming HUGE. 1500 daily departures combined.



Actually 1600, the summer plan is DFW 900, CLT 700. i think that's about a 10% increase each. Very bold, especially since the operation last year was not great.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:13 pm

NK is on far better financial footing than AA is, as NK had long leased its entire fleet (its fleet ownership is closer to half owned, half leased now, with all the A321s and select A320s financed and select A319s owned or to be owned upon lease buyout). I expect that AA will eventually blink and retreat, just because NK is able to turn the plane around faster. NK competes on price; AA's yields will be trashed.
 
TWFlyGuy
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:34 pm

Iloveboeing wrote:
nikeherc wrote:
This kind of tit-for-tat has been going on forever. It goes back to People Express, Laker, Fly I, Air South and on and on. Legacies don't let LCCs come in and eat their lunch. The standard response is to increase service, add new destinations and slash fares. The flying public being the sheep that they are think "Hmm, I can get the same fare on Delta that I would pay People Express. I know Delta, so I'll take them." Of course the strategy works and the LCC is forced out. When the LCC leaves, fares go back up, destinations are deleted and capacity goes back down to increase yields. Of course the LCC goes out of business, the legacy struggles to make up for the period when their yields were trashed and demand is suppressed again.


UA did exactly this to Independence Air at IAD. Plus, IIRC, they offered double or triple MileagePlus miles. It was insane. After they forced Independence out of business, capacity dropped and fares went up. It's amazing how the flying sheeple fall for this....every....single....time. Then they complain about high fares.


And don't forget the DL response to B6 the first time they came to ATL.
 
mcdu
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:43 pm

I am glad to see AA respond. If they pulled flights in the competing markets there would be outrage here that AA isn’t willing to fight off competition.

There is nothing good about having a spirit flight available. It’s a torture chamber of an operation.
 
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flymco753
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:51 pm

NKs whole plane can sell for (hypothetically $80) whereas AA needs to sell more at a higher price. That's really a big difference.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
Lootess
Posts: 147
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:34 pm

Good to AA defend CLT and keep the bare fare airline that's not really cheaper at-bay. There are people here whom have never flown NK and just think they are like WN or something.

nc3rd wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
American has a substandard product and service! It is great to see competitors realize people want a choice in AA hubs! Now if only Delta would open up a focus city in CLT as well to provide a true premium product for travelers. AA really needs to put customer service first again. They were a nice airline in the 1990s.

The delta love around here is getting pretty ridiculous. UA/DL/AA are all pretty much the same. Delta may be a little bit better today, but its not huge.


Yes, being the most successful airline in the the US is pretty ridiculous. What a comment.
 
tkoenig95
Posts: 282
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:44 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
nc3rd wrote:
Good for them for fighting back against NK. You have to defend home court.


^^^^This

I have no idea why you people act surprised when AA has a history of retaliating like this.

AA will undercut NK on prices, and ultimately there will be no reason for travelers to take NK, when AA offers a better schedule and cheaper fares

AA is a business, why would they allow any sort of competition to affect their CLT fortress

The need of the market will show the real winner here. NK's decision to start CLT service in the summer is great in regards to increased seasonal traffic, but only autumn/winter comes around we will see who the real winner is.
 
flybry
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:39 pm

I wonder if AA will add a CLT route to South America. Didn't US Airways fly from CLT to Sao Paulo?
 
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FA9295
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:53 pm

flybry wrote:
I wonder if AA will add a CLT route to South America. Didn't US Airways fly from CLT to Sao Paulo?

Probably not, as this would end up canibalizing their South America routes from DFW.

I'm not sure if US Airways ever did, though.
 
717atOGG
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:55 pm

FA9295 wrote:
flybry wrote:
I wonder if AA will add a CLT route to South America. Didn't US Airways fly from CLT to Sao Paulo?

Probably not, as this would end up canibalizing their South America routes from DFW.

I'm not sure if US Airways ever did, though.

I think they flew CLT-GIG for a while on a 762 as a result of the DL-US slot swap, but it ended in 2015 IIRC. Not sure about CLT-GRU though.
Long live the Boeing 757!
 
USAirALB
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:17 pm

717atOGG wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
flybry wrote:
I wonder if AA will add a CLT route to South America. Didn't US Airways fly from CLT to Sao Paulo?

Probably not, as this would end up canibalizing their South America routes from DFW.

I'm not sure if US Airways ever did, though.

I think they flew CLT-GIG for a while on a 762 as a result of the DL-US slot swap, but it ended in 2015 IIRC. Not sure about CLT-GRU though.

US applied for CLT-GIG on their own. CLT-GRU was supposed to be the result of the slot-swap, but I believe it operated on slots leased from UA, IIRC. CLT-GIG was flown with a 762 during the Southern winter, and with an A332 during the Southern summer. CLT-GRU was started with a 762 but was eventually flown with an A332.
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RDUDDJI
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:22 pm

Iloveboeing wrote:
nikeherc wrote:
This kind of tit-for-tat has been going on forever. It goes back to People Express, Laker, Fly I, Air South and on and on. Legacies don't let LCCs come in and eat their lunch. The standard response is to increase service, add new destinations and slash fares. The flying public being the sheep that they are think "Hmm, I can get the same fare on Delta that I would pay People Express. I know Delta, so I'll take them." Of course the strategy works and the LCC is forced out. When the LCC leaves, fares go back up, destinations are deleted and capacity goes back down to increase yields. Of course the LCC goes out of business, the legacy struggles to make up for the period when their yields were trashed and demand is suppressed again.


UA did exactly this to Independence Air at IAD. Plus, IIRC, they offered double or triple MileagePlus miles. It was insane. After they forced Independence out of business, capacity dropped and fares went up. It's amazing how the flying sheeple fall for this....every....single....time. Then they complain about high fares.


FWIW, so did other airlines. My personal favorite was NW retaliating with LAN-IAD when Indy started it. That had to be a huge money loser with no feed on either end and not surprisingly was dropped when Indy dropped that market.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
Miamiairport
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:27 pm

Clearly AA as well as UA and DL see the ULCCs as competition hence BE. With differing cost structures and ULCCs having more of a leisure bent Spirit can sell more seats at BE fares while AA/DL/UA cannot. Expect AA to classify more seats at BE fares but is probably counting on a certain percentage to upgauge to Main Cabin.
 
JetBlueCLT
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:28 pm

Wonderful news for the city of Charlotte and connecting passengers! Looking forward to seeing how much more expansion we’ll see from AA once they get access to those 7 gates on concourse A.

Besides the 8th LAX flight, I’m assuming the additional flights to EWR/FLL/MCO will be flown outside one of the “banks”. Which is already being seen now with AA flight 788(CLT-MCO) which leaves at 1045.(Outside of a regular bank)

Very impressed with the 8 daily to LAX!
Pittsburgh Penguins, Steelers, Pirates and Charlotte Hornets Fan
 
RamblinMan
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:21 pm

mcdu wrote:
There is nothing good about having a spirit flight available. It’s a torture chamber of an operation.


Utterly asinine comment. Even if you don't take the Spirit flight, the fares and/or schedule will be better on your preferred legacy because of competition. Unless for some reason you really enjoy paying $350 and up on 1-hour routes- AA's shareholders really appreciate you lol.

Not to mention that there's hardly a distinguishable difference between the two if you are in a regular Y seat. On NK though I can spend $30ish for a typical shorthaul and get a "big front seat". With AA I have to buy up to main cabin just for the privilege of shelling out again to get on the upgrade list.
 
mcdu
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:22 pm

Is cheap airfare a right?
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:29 pm

TWFlyGuy wrote:
CLT is a city of ~2.5 million. Name another city that small with a massive fortress hub? AA has to defend it's share each. Each and every local pax that defects to NK is problematic for AA.


DL's hub at SLC has to be close to a fortress hub, no?
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
Next: AA: DFW-PHL (752), PHL-MIA (763), MIA-LAX (77W), LAX-DFW (789)
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:54 pm

FA9295 wrote:
flybry wrote:
I wonder if AA will add a CLT route to South America. Didn't US Airways fly from CLT to Sao Paulo?

Probably not, as this would end up canibalizing their South America routes from DFW.

I'm not sure if US Airways ever did, though.

That would take away from MIA, not DFW.
 
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ChaseCLT
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:02 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
Detroit313 wrote:
DFW and CLT are becoming HUGE. 1500 daily departures combined.



Actually 1600, the summer plan is DFW 900, CLT 700. i think that's about a 10% increase each. Very bold, especially since the operation last year was not great.



I’m so glad armchair CEO’s on here have dropped the “Charlotte’s going to be decreased by 35%” nonsense they kept going on and on about after the merger was announced.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:31 am

ctrabs0114 wrote:
TWFlyGuy wrote:
CLT is a city of ~2.5 million. Name another city that small with a massive fortress hub? AA has to defend it's share each. Each and every local pax that defects to NK is problematic for AA.


DL's hub at SLC has to be close to a fortress hub, no?


SLC is, in fact, an MSA with half the population of CLT but with more O&D passengers. The fraction of O&D at SLC is much higher than at CLT.
 
LAXtoATL
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:11 am

flymco753 wrote:
NKs whole plane can sell for (hypothetically $80) whereas AA needs to sell more at a higher price. That's really a big difference.


What your analysis is missing is the fact that AA has the power of the hub in CLT to rely on. While NK would need to fill their entire plane at $80, AA can fill 70% of their plane with connecting passengers at $240 and match NK’s $80 fare for the remaining 30% nonstop passengers. You wanna guess who really has the advantage when you look at the big picture? There is a reason AA responded with so many additional flights. They certainly aren’t pulling planes off of profitable routes to put them on money losing routes. They can take the loss in the nonstop market and still have a profitable flight. Meanwhile NK has an inferior product and inferior schedule with the same fare in the market. This is AA’s game to lose. There have been instances of ULCC’s succeeding on routes from legacy mega hubs, but there are many more instances of the ULCC’s throwing in the towel on those routes.
 
OneAA
Posts: 28
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:21 am

Moving more “kettle” traffic through a big “kettle” hub. Yuck.
 
UPNYGuy
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:55 pm

RamblinMan wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
AA will undercut NK on prices, and ultimately there will be no reason for travelers to take NK,


Other than NK's superior product, you mean? :stirthepot:


There have been times for me (twice so far) where an NK BFS has been less than an AA coach, even with carry on and checked. Even if it is a bit more, I’ll take an NK BFS over an AA coach seat.
 
UPNYGuy
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:11 pm

santi319 wrote:
Shuttle wrote:
santi319 wrote:
Haha, are people here in A-net, still saying “NK serves a different market” in 2019??

Sure. 90s Ryanair used to “serve a different market” in Europe... go look where are they now...


This. AA (and other legacies) have learned from what happened in Europe. BA thought the average easyJet customer was different to BA's core customer... until it was too late and now they are fighting over the same passengers.

Shuttle

Exactly my friend. And this whole thread is further proof that they do serve similar markets..

Millenials also don’t care about flat beds and 30 meals on an hour flight... the writing is on the wall...


^^^^THIS!!!!!

my wife and I are 35, upwardly mobile, and fly multiple times per year. We don’t see the value in FF programs any longer, as we have NEXUS. NEXUS gives us TSAPre (so no long lines), and GlobalEntry. Status used to be worth something BEFORE airlines started selling early boarding privileges. Every Tom, Dick, and Harry seemingly has Zone 2 on the card now. We see this every time we fly.

We usually fly short-ish routes. Longest is typically under 8 hours. We are fine with Premium Econ, and a decent meal. We expect efficient service. We view airline transportation as a way to get us to the destination and back, not this amazing glamazon of transportation. We could EASILY have status with one airline if we simply stuck with one carrier, but we don’t.

Since Jan ‘18, we have flown WW 3 times, NK twice, DY once, AA once, and UA once. So it is a generalization that people don’t understand what they get with these airlines, or flight options.
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2080
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Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:54 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:
TWFlyGuy wrote:
CLT is a city of ~2.5 million. Name another city that small with a massive fortress hub? AA has to defend it's share each. Each and every local pax that defects to NK is problematic for AA.


DL's hub at SLC has to be close to a fortress hub, no?


SLC is, in fact, an MSA with half the population of CLT but with more O&D passengers. The fraction of O&D at SLC is much higher than at CLT.


MSAs are irrelevant when discussing air travel markets. Do you really think the people in Odgen and Provo don't use SLC? A better measure is CSA which includes adjacent MSAs. The CLT CSA (2.68mil) is only marginally larger than SLCs (2.56mil).
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
TWFlyGuy
Posts: 394
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: AA retaliates against NK, ups frequencies on CLT-BWI/FLL/MCO/EWR, plans more growth

Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:42 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:

DL's hub at SLC has to be close to a fortress hub, no?


SLC is, in fact, an MSA with half the population of CLT but with more O&D passengers. The fraction of O&D at SLC is much higher than at CLT.


MSAs are irrelevant when discussing air travel markets. Do you really think the people in Odgen and Provo don't use SLC? A better measure is CSA which includes adjacent MSAs. The CLT CSA (2.68mil) is only marginally larger than SLCs (2.56mil).


I don't believe DL has nearly as many flights at SLC as AA does at CLT and there is, and has been for quite some time, a sizable WN presence at SLC which CLT doesn't have. And I don't imagine US previously or AA since the merger ever really looked at closing CLT whereas DL has considered closing SLC.

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