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mattnrsa
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FAA Moves to Reduce Weather Delays at US Airports

Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:21 am

https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/new ... yptr=yahoo

The article mentions ORD/MDW and DEN specifically, but would benefits be seen by other airports too (NYC, SFO)? I’m not very familiar with the technical aspect of it, but hopefully this is something that would generate results.
 
UALifer
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Re: FAA Moves to Reduce Weather Delays at US Airports

Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:08 pm

I could see this helping at EWR, but I don’t think it will help SFO. Since SFO arrives and departs on crossing runways, they’ll still need adequate spacing between arrivals to ensure departures can shoot the gap between arrivals. Really the only way to improve the situation at SFO is to allow parallel arrivals in poor weather, which won’t happen with this change.
 
DiscoverCSG
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Re: FAA Moves to Reduce Weather Delays at US Airports

Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:20 pm

UALifer wrote:
I could see this helping at EWR, but I don’t think it will help SFO. Since SFO arrives and departs on crossing runways, they’ll still need adequate spacing between arrivals to ensure departures can shoot the gap between arrivals. Really the only way to improve the situation at SFO is to allow parallel arrivals in poor weather, which won’t happen with this change.


This article isn't talking about the spacing of arrivals on final approach. It's talking about the en route restrictions imposed on aircraft at cruise when the arrival rate drops at a destination (hub) airport due to yucky weather.

Artificially-imposed miles-in-trail restrictions lead to flow control delays on aircraft departing an outstation (or make them fly slower en route) to ensure that the weather-beaten hub airport doesn't have to put planes into holding patterns or diversions when it can't handle all the scheduled arrivals in a reduced-capacity situation. If I understand correctly (and I'm sure someone will correct me if not), the FAA wants to use more accurate data on past restriction situations to squeeze more flights into hubs when the weather is iffy, as opposed to when it's truly awful or else totally fine.
 
ericm2031
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Re: FAA Moves to Reduce Weather Delays at US Airports

Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:03 pm

Odd that DEN is mentioned as there rarely are weather delays there
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: FAA Moves to Reduce Weather Delays at US Airports

Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:15 pm

It's been a decade or so since my system ops days, so forgive me if some of these things have changed. I suspect it has not, because I still experience flights leaving for example RDU for ATL where we leave the gate on-time only to find we have to wait 45 min for a GAP in the flow. Even with no published GDP.

I've never been a fan of MIT delays. They are not transparent at all to the pilots and system ops. You may leave say MHT and wait a hour to take off for IAD due to restrictions in N90. Or you may have no delay...but you won't know until you taxi out. US ATC doesn't do a good job of communicating what the issue is or when they will be allowed to continue. Even in system control, they often don't know where in the lineup they are because you're competing with flights from other airports also transitioning that airspace. The system would be more transparent if they were able to provide EDCTs proactively so carriers could plan around them.
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AWACSooner
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Re: FAA Moves to Reduce Weather Delays at US Airports

Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:33 pm

Hope they start with DFW...
 
bomber996
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Re: FAA Moves to Reduce Weather Delays at US Airports

Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:34 pm

ericm2031 wrote:
Odd that DEN is mentioned as there rarely are weather delays there


Get strong west or east winds and the airport goes into very lengthy weather delays. Typically you're correct, but when weather delays happen, they happen big at DEN.

Peace :box:
"We've recently upped our standards, so up yours." - Federal Aviation Administration
 
BCEaglesCO757
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Re: FAA Moves to Reduce Weather Delays at US Airports

Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:35 pm

ericm2031 wrote:
Odd that DEN is mentioned as there rarely are weather delays there


Try keeping up with the TAF at DEN and watch it yo-yo...
 
drdisque
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Re: FAA Moves to Reduce Weather Delays at US Airports

Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:14 pm

This will impact SFO as there are still delays due to Miles-in-Trail requirements, although it will not benefit SFO as much as ORD, EWR, LGA (really only usable on the ILS 4 or ILS 22), and JFK and to a lesser extent ATL, DCA, BOS and PHL

DEN does have arrival rate problems when there are strong winds that make the field only operate in one direction and in the middle of a bank (in those conditions the airfield becomes single runway for arrivals) These delays really only happen due to miles in trail, so a relaxation of miles in trail should alleviate delays at DEN, even though they're not common.

ORD honestly doesn't have delays due to arrival rate anymore because in most winds they can fly 3x parallel arrivals if needed. Delays there are more common due to facility constraints (more aircraft on the ground than the field can hold).
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: FAA Moves to Reduce Weather Delays at US Airports

Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:00 pm

ericm2031 wrote:
Odd that DEN is mentioned as there rarely are weather delays there

You've never been to DEN in the summer.
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MNgopher
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Re: FAA Moves to Reduce Weather Delays at US Airports

Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:59 pm

Between afternoon thunderstorms in the summer (many with hail), and strong east or west winds, DEN gets its fair share of delays. Add in some winter fun too. Not a whole lot that can be done about the weather.
 
Dreamflight767
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Re: FAA Moves to Reduce Weather Delays at US Airports

Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:29 pm

These people are all filled with crap (FAA, airlines, airport operations, airport operators).

You can reduce your in-trail spacing down to 10 feet if you want. But what the hell does it make a difference if first airplane needs space to slow and vacate the RWY? Or wake turbulence issues/separation, or 4 miles between landing A/C to hit a departure hole. Moreover, when you are down to half or less of your RWYs because the other RWYs are closed for construction or haven't been treated for ice/snow, etc.?

The problem is outed ground infrastructure (airports), WX, environmental concerns, communities that bitch about noise, and airlines (& PAX) who insist on flying into major hubs w/ 13 flights that land and depart from the same city pairs within 5 mins. of each other.

For some reason, nobody speaks the truth.
 
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EstherLouise
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Re: FAA Moves to Reduce Weather Delays at US Airports

Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:46 am

Remember when MSP never closed? I wonder why they cave every time there's 2 inches of snow now.
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peak86
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Re: FAA Moves to Reduce Weather Delays at US Airports

Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:58 am

Tonight is a great example of when DEN can become a total mess.

Snow and freezing fog = planes that have been taxiing in circles and parked on taxiways. Based on FR24 - looks like multiple planes that pushed back between 4-6pm are still on the ground and taxiing... and this leads to inevitable airborne delays as gates quickly disappear. Not sure how the FAA plans to mitigate that
 
rainaviation2
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Re: FAA Moves to Reduce Weather Delays at US Airports

Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:15 pm

EstherLouise wrote:
Remember when MSP never closed? I wonder why they cave every time there's 2 inches of snow now.


They still never close. The snow event that occurred earlier this week was 8 inches of snow and they were only closed for 1-2 hours. They had 109 snow removal vehicles out there trying their best to keep the airport open but the snow was falling at rates of 2 inches per hour. 8 inches of snow in many other cities would shut them down all day, MSP only had a little over 100 cancelations.
 
ATCSuggester
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Re: FAA Moves to Reduce Weather Delays at US Airports

Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:16 pm

Anybody here work in TMU somewhere that can shed more light on this project? If it's such a great idea to remove intrail spacing why hasn't it been done before? ORD has been able to run trips now for a while in a two flow configuration so you think they would have tried whatever they're conjuring up now, a while ago considering they probably have a greater AAR now.

It all seems like a good idea until convective activity in the summer causes a thunderstorm to blow up on final causing wind shear and extreme precip, then a wind shift. When that happens, what do you do with the absurd amount of planes in the terminal airspace?

On another note. Our tower is getting a new system that will allow us to get flow times into airports that we have call for release programs with using a computer in the tower with time based flow management software instead of us calling the TMU at the center for a flow times. I think EDCT times are still generated by the center TMU though. Maybe this is part of the new program they are rolling out?
 
twaconnie
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Re: FAA Moves to Reduce Weather Delays at US Airports

Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:24 pm

bomber996 wrote:
ericm2031 wrote:
Odd that DEN is mentioned as there rarely are weather delays there


Get strong west or east winds and the airport goes into very lengthy weather delays. Typically you're correct, but when weather delays happen, they happen big at DEN.

Peace :box:


Same scenario at EWR with strong northwest winds.And if LGA had another rwy maybe traffic would move better.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: FAA Moves to Reduce Weather Delays at US Airports

Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:04 pm

ATCSuggester wrote:
Anybody here work in TMU somewhere that can shed more light on this project? If it's such a great idea to remove intrail spacing why hasn't it been done before? ORD has been able to run trips now for a while in a two flow configuration so you think they would have tried whatever they're conjuring up now, a while ago considering they probably have a greater AAR now.

It all seems like a good idea until convective activity in the summer causes a thunderstorm to blow up on final causing wind shear and extreme precip, then a wind shift. When that happens, what do you do with the absurd amount of planes in the terminal airspace?

On another note. Our tower is getting a new system that will allow us to get flow times into airports that we have call for release programs with using a computer in the tower with time based flow management software instead of us calling the TMU at the center for a flow times. I think EDCT times are still generated by the center TMU though. Maybe this is part of the new program they are rolling out?

I'm not TMU, but yes, I assume this is just transitioning more airports from a miles in-trail restriction to TBFM. Airports like EWR and CLT already use TBFM regularly. In enroute, it sets a specific time target for each flight to gain or lose in each sector, because it projects the time that aircraft will hit the runway and aims to hit that time. The controller will then attempt to gain or lose time to meet that target. It's far more accurate than a MIT restriction, but it isn't perfect. Usually things revert to a MIT restriction when weather moves in. The upside is that it schedules out exact EDCT times, and it's generally pretty accurate so that the aircraft reaches its destination at the intended time.

It should increase efficiencies for most airports simply because it's more precise, and it takes multiple feeds into account. That said, I have doubts on how well it would work for some airports, especially LGA. The field simply can't handle the amount of traffic it currently handles on most days.

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