questions
Topic Author
Posts: 1857
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Delta B739 vs A321

Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:27 am

Do the 739 and 321 have different missions in Delta’s network? If so what are they? Are they used interchangeably? If so, when/how?
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 7198
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Delta B739 vs A321

Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:55 am

At a high-level not really much different in their deployment, at least at this time.

A321 (192 or 189) vs. 739ER (180); the A321 has a few more seats but deployment is more a function of capacity planning and aircraft availiability / routing.

739 deliveries will wrap-up later this year while there are a lot more A321 CEO and NEO deliveries to go.

For the most part, both A321 and 739 aircraft are flying from domestic hubs and fly a varying range of flights. Anything from relatively short-hops to near-trans-cons.
They are taking over many of the flights that used to be 757. Or, upgauging flights that were flown by 150-160 seat aircraft.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 7198
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Delta B739 vs A321

Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:57 am

The 757s (200) are being pulled from longer flights that don't need their performance capabilities and being replaced by 739 / A321 where feasible.

They are both being used to add capacity on routes without changing frequency. Particularly at ATL where they can't really add more flights at peak times, they can upgauge to the large narrowbodies where it makes sense.
 
ctrabs0114
Posts: 783
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:09 am

Re: Delta B739 vs A321

Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:45 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The 757s (200) are being pulled from longer flights that don't need their performance capabilities and being replaced by 739 / A321 where feasible.

They are both being used to add capacity on routes without changing frequency. Particularly at ATL where they can't really add more flights at peak times, they can upgauge to the large narrowbodies where it makes sense.


SEA-DTW comes to mind. My trip on that red eye in late April was originally booked on a 752, but was switched to a 739 not too long after I booked the flight.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
Next: AA: DFW-PHL (752), PHL-MIA (763), MIA-LAX (77W), LAX-DFW (789)
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 4997
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Delta B739 vs A321

Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:39 am

The initial 321 rollout had them on shorter median stage lengths than the 739s but they are now seeing longer runs.
 
tinpusher007
Posts: 936
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:03 am

Re: Delta B739 vs A321

Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:01 pm

The longest routes we fly the 321 on are ATL-California and JFK-SLC. The 739 has more range and does full on transcons where the 321ceo cannot. However we have 100 firm plus 100 options on the P&W GTF powered 321 neo. Stay tuned!!!
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3634
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Delta B739 vs A321

Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:10 pm

tinpusher007 wrote:
The longest routes we fly the 321 on are ATL-California and JFK-SLC. The 739 has more range and does full on transcons where the 321ceo cannot. However we have 100 firm plus 100 options on the P&W GTF powered 321 neo. Stay tuned!!!


I think I read that Delta didn’t put aux fuel tanks in the A321s to save weight and allow more cargo, so they can’t do a full transcon. The 737-900ER has more fuel storage so it can do transcons so it flies longer missions than the A321.
 
evank516
Posts: 1919
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: Delta B739 vs A321

Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:17 pm

You used to see the 739 at LGA quite a bit, now you don't really see them at all. Lots of A321s though.
 
speedbird2263
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:07 pm

Re: Delta B739 vs A321

Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:32 pm

    evank516 wrote:
    You used to see the 739 at LGA quite a bit, now you don't really see them at all. Lots of A321s though.


    I wonder if given both frames, the A321 is a little more flexible when it comes to payload and performance with relatively short runways compared to the 739?
    Straight'n Up 'N Fly Right Son
     
    FB330
    Posts: 55
    Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:46 pm

    Re: Delta B739 vs A321

    Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:36 pm

    Given the similarity between the two, what were the the reasons Delta ordered both?
     
    User avatar
    flymco753
    Posts: 3223
    Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

    Re: Delta B739 vs A321

    Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:45 pm

    The 321 has basically invaded DTW at this point from what I've noticed. A lot of 739 routes are being replaced by the A321 from DTW like LAX, SAN, PHX, LAS, FLL, & TPA in particular. Also, they've reduced the amount of 738 and A320 flying and have been replaced with the A321. With the MD90s going out, most of those MD90 routes will become mostly A319/A320 which essentially, is being pulled from LGA, BOS, & DCA and being switched with the A321.
    ...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
     
    User avatar
    Revelation
    Posts: 20284
    Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

    Re: Delta B739 vs A321

    Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:46 pm

    FB330 wrote:
    Given the similarity between the two, what were the the reasons Delta ordered both?

    For an airline the size of DL, diversity has great advantages. It makes everyone from the manufacturer down compete on price. It helps their MRO business grow. DL already had A320 in house after the NW merger and have been a 737 operator for a while too so it wasn't as if they had to start a new training regime. They learn a lot from having both on property and it keeps the vendors honest. All in all a good strategy. Now, when are they gonna get some 787s? :biggrin:
    Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
    The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
    Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
    The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
     
    cledaybuck
    Posts: 1364
    Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

    Re: Delta B739 vs A321

    Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:47 pm

    FB330 wrote:
    Given the similarity between the two, what were the the reasons Delta ordered both?

    I'm guessing they got a good deal on both, and since they already operated large fleets of both A320's and 737's, it wasn't a big deal to operate both.
     
    evank516
    Posts: 1919
    Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

    Re: Delta B739 vs A321

    Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:57 pm

    speedbird2263 wrote:
      evank516 wrote:
      You used to see the 739 at LGA quite a bit, now you don't really see them at all. Lots of A321s though.


      I wonder if given both frames, the A321 is a little more flexible when it comes to payload and performance with relatively short runways compared to the 739?


      You see I thought the 739 had an edge on the A321 with shorter runways, or at least over the A321ceo, which is what Delta currently flies out of LGA.
       
      User avatar
      DL757NYC
      Posts: 258
      Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:07 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:10 pm

      PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
      The 757s (200) are being pulled from longer flights that don't need their performance capabilities and being replaced by 739 / A321 where feasible.

      They are both being used to add capacity on routes without changing frequency. Particularly at ATL where they can't really add more flights at peak times, they can upgauge to the large narrowbodies where it makes sense.



      I thought 757’s were pulled from short flights. There was a time when LGA-ATL/ATL-LGA was almost exclusively 757’s. It’s not to say you never see them on short flights in between long segments. However I could have sworn they were using them on longer flights.
       
      User avatar
      DL757NYC
      Posts: 258
      Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:07 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:14 pm

      questions wrote:
      Do the 739 and 321 have different missions in Delta’s network? If so what are they? Are they used interchangeably? If so, when/how?


      I love the technological marvel Boeing came up with. The 739 has this new tail stand. It’s going to take Airbus years to catch up to this level of innovation.
       
      User avatar
      BN727227Ultra
      Posts: 575
      Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:15 pm

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:24 pm

      DL757NYC wrote:
      questions wrote:
      Do the 739 and 321 have different missions in Delta’s network? If so what are they? Are they used interchangeably? If so, when/how?


      I love the technological marvel Boeing came up with. The 739 has this new tail stand. It’s going to take Airbus years to catch up to this level of innovation.


      (snort) :lol:
       
      evank516
      Posts: 1919
      Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:26 pm

      DL757NYC wrote:
      PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
      The 757s (200) are being pulled from longer flights that don't need their performance capabilities and being replaced by 739 / A321 where feasible.

      They are both being used to add capacity on routes without changing frequency. Particularly at ATL where they can't really add more flights at peak times, they can upgauge to the large narrowbodies where it makes sense.



      I thought 757’s were pulled from short flights. There was a time when LGA-ATL/ATL-LGA was almost exclusively 757’s. It’s not to say you never see them on short flights in between long segments. However I could have sworn they were using them on longer flights.


      I remember those days very well. However you see them on quite a few ATL-Florida runs, and I think they're on ATL-BNA now that WN flies the route as well.
       
      Web
      Posts: 341
      Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:56 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:27 pm

      Revelation wrote:
      FB330 wrote:
      Given the similarity between the two, what were the the reasons Delta ordered both?

      For an airline the size of DL, diversity has great advantages. It makes everyone from the manufacturer down compete on price. It helps their MRO business grow. DL already had A320 in house after the NW merger and have been a 737 operator for a while too so it wasn't as if they had to start a new training regime. They learn a lot from having both on property and it keeps the vendors honest. All in all a good strategy.


      I agree, but also, with the number of aircraft DL wanted (in the hundreds), splitting the order between two manufacturers enables faster deliveries. Maybe not twice as fast, but certainly faster than just placing one gigantic order with one manufacturer.
       
      MIflyer12
      Posts: 4997
      Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:55 pm

      Revelation wrote:
      FB330 wrote:
      Given the similarity between the two, what were the the reasons Delta ordered both?

      For an airline the size of DL, diversity has great advantages. It makes everyone from the manufacturer down compete on price. It helps their MRO business grow. DL already had A320 in house after the NW merger and have been a 737 operator for a while too so it wasn't as if they had to start a new training regime. They learn a lot from having both on property and it keeps the vendors honest. All in all a good strategy. Now, when are they gonna get some 787s? :biggrin:


      And that's why I'm confident there will be Delta Max 8s, even though there are 100 321Neos on order.
       
      EBiafore99
      Posts: 65
      Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:03 pm

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:50 pm

      FB330 wrote:
      Given the similarity between the two, what were the the reasons Delta ordered both?


      Wasn't the 739 order part of the "deal" when DL rescinded PMNWs order of the 787?
       
      User avatar
      DL757NYC
      Posts: 258
      Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:07 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:17 pm

      evank516 wrote:
      DL757NYC wrote:
      PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
      The 757s (200) are being pulled from longer flights that don't need their performance capabilities and being replaced by 739 / A321 where feasible.

      They are both being used to add capacity on routes without changing frequency. Particularly at ATL where they can't really add more flights at peak times, they can upgauge to the large narrowbodies where it makes sense.



      I thought 757’s were pulled from short flights. There was a time when LGA-ATL/ATL-LGA was almost exclusively 757’s. It’s not to say you never see them on short flights in between long segments. However I could have sworn they were using them on longer flights.


      I remember those days very well. However you see them on quite a few ATL-Florida runs, and I think they're on ATL-BNA now that WN flies the route as well.


      They do these quick hops in between segments I was on a 757 that went to Jacksonville I believe then to LAX. My buddy is a mechanic and he thinks it’s also to cut down on cycles. I don’t know how valid that is.
       
      FSDan
      Posts: 2401
      Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:02 pm

      DL757NYC wrote:
      PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
      The 757s (200) are being pulled from longer flights that don't need their performance capabilities and being replaced by 739 / A321 where feasible.

      They are both being used to add capacity on routes without changing frequency. Particularly at ATL where they can't really add more flights at peak times, they can upgauge to the large narrowbodies where it makes sense.



      I thought 757’s were pulled from short flights. There was a time when LGA-ATL/ATL-LGA was almost exclusively 757’s. It’s not to say you never see them on short flights in between long segments. However I could have sworn they were using them on longer flights.


      They do a mix of short and long segments. Looking at the June 2019 schedules, routes like ATL-FLL and ATL-MCO are entirely 752 (that's 14x daily on ATL-FLL and 17x daily on ATL-MCO!). There are also 752s scheduled on routes like MSP-MSN, DTW-IND, and ATL-JAX. On the other hand, there are also domestic 752s scheduled on JFK-SAN, BOS-SFO, LAX-MCO, and of course the longer hub-hub routes like DTW-SEA, DTW-LAX, ATL-SEA, and ATL-LAX.
      This is my signature until I think of a better one.
       
      SteelChair
      Posts: 879
      Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:15 pm

      I would be very surprised to ever see Delta take the 738 Max. Like Michael Corleone ever. There are no 787 slots to trade off this time and the 739neo pricing deal they got was end of the line special pricing. Delta said when they placed the 321neo order that it was the better product. All of this is why losing that deal was such a huge loss for Boeing.

      Back to the original posters question: I would point out that the 321ceo has slightly higher fuel burn than the 739ceo and the 321 also holds over 4,000 lb less fuel. Thus, in general it seems like the 739 flies slightly longer segments and goes more places. The slightly higher seating capacity, slightly shorter ranged 321ceo seems perfect for the dense, relatively short haul, traffic in the eastern half of the country: ATL-NEUSA-DTW-MSP-Florida.
       
      FSDan
      Posts: 2401
      Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:16 pm

      Regarding 739 vs 321, the biggest difference I've noticed is that certain destinations tend to see mostly 739s while others tend to see mostly 321s. For example, in the Summer 2019 schedules PDX sees mostly 739s, with few or no 321s. SAN is the opposite, seeing far more 321s and few or no 739s. LAS and PHX are both heavier on the 321s than the 739s, and SFO is another example in the opposite direction of seeing way more 739s than 321s. Florida seems to get quite an even mix of 739s and 321s.
      This is my signature until I think of a better one.
       
      PSU.DTW.SCE
      Posts: 7198
      Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:27 pm

      DL757NYC wrote:
      evank516 wrote:
      DL757NYC wrote:


      I thought 757’s were pulled from short flights. There was a time when LGA-ATL/ATL-LGA was almost exclusively 757’s. It’s not to say you never see them on short flights in between long segments. However I could have sworn they were using them on longer flights.


      I remember those days very well. However you see them on quite a few ATL-Florida runs, and I think they're on ATL-BNA now that WN flies the route as well.


      They do these quick hops in between segments I was on a 757 that went to Jacksonville I believe then to LAX. My buddy is a mechanic and he thinks it’s also to cut down on cycles. I don’t know how valid that is.


      Over the past year or so, there has been a bit of a transition of seeing fewer 757s on the DTW/MSP/ATL-west coast, with more 739 / A321 on these flights and a transition of the 757 back to more Florida flying. Like said, you are seeing more 757s on ATL-Florida again, versus when initially there was a lot of 739 and A321 on these when they were first introduced to the fleet.

      There is a routing / aircraft availability reason that it makes sense to do shorter turns in between longer segments and something you see a with a lot of RON flights.

      Yes, there is also a need to balance hours & cycles to optimize intervals between maintenance, etc. Hence the need to mix some 1 hr segments between 4 hour segments.


      FSDan wrote:
      Regarding 739 vs 321, the biggest difference I've noticed is that certain destinations tend to see mostly 739s while others tend to see mostly 321s. For example, in the Summer 2019 schedules PDX sees mostly 739s, with few or no 321s. SAN is the opposite, seeing far more 321s and few or no 739s. LAS and PHX are both heavier on the 321s than the 739s, and SFO is another example in the opposite direction of seeing way more 739s than 321s. Florida seems to get quite an even mix of 739s and 321s

      Starting last year, there has been a push to rationalize the number and types of aircraft that touch a given station, particularly for RONs. This makes it easier for crew scheduling, spare parts, maintenance, and IRROPS recovery. Its not the end-all-be-all justification, but in cases where all things are equal that is the case in some places.
       
      User avatar
      compensateme
      Posts: 3239
      Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:37 pm

      FSDan wrote:
      DL757NYC wrote:
      PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
      The 757s (200) are being pulled from longer flights that don't need their performance capabilities and being replaced by 739 / A321 where feasible.

      They are both being used to add capacity on routes without changing frequency. Particularly at ATL where they can't really add more flights at peak times, they can upgauge to the large narrowbodies where it makes sense.



      I thought 757’s were pulled from short flights. There was a time when LGA-ATL/ATL-LGA was almost exclusively 757’s. It’s not to say you never see them on short flights in between long segments. However I could have sworn they were using them on longer flights.


      They do a mix of short and long segments. Looking at the June 2019 schedules, routes like ATL-FLL and ATL-MCO are entirely 752 (that's 14x daily on ATL-FLL and 17x daily on ATL-MCO!). There are also 752s scheduled on routes like MSP-MSN, DTW-IND, and ATL-JAX. On the other hand, there are also domestic 752s scheduled on JFK-SAN, BOS-SFO, LAX-MCO, and of course the longer hub-hub routes like DTW-SEA, DTW-LAX, ATL-SEA, and ATL-LAX.


      This needs context:

      The average gauge of the 757 continues to decrease. When DL first introduced the 321, it was deployed on short-haul segments from ATL, primarily to Florida. As the type teethed in, the 321 shifted to primarily long-haul segments and most of the short-haul segments reverted to 757.

      Today, the 739, 321 and 753 operate the lion’s share of DL domestic flights over 3.5 hours, and an increasing number over 3 hours. The exceptions are generally 757 to continue onto Hawaii, 757 that operate (or continue onto operate, from LAX) special performance flights and flights sold with a D1 cabin; there’s also a noticeable increase in 757 flying during peak travel periods, when DL requires additional lift.

      It’s worth noting that on many flights over 3.5 hours, the 739 and 321 are replacing not only 757, but many 320 and 738 as well, yielding the MD-88’s direct replacement.

      With credible sources indicating that some 321NEO will be configured with ETOPS or D1, the average gauge of the 757 will continue to decrease, and a fair number of aircraft will be retired by 2023.
      We don’t care what your next flight is.
       
      User avatar
      compensateme
      Posts: 3239
      Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:43 pm

      EBiafore99 wrote:
      FB330 wrote:
      Given the similarity between the two, what were the the reasons Delta ordered both?


      Wasn't the 739 order part of the "deal" when DL rescinded PMNWs order of the 787?


      No. The 787 failed to live up to expectations guaranteed to NW, thus Boeing owed NW/DL compensation, which was credited toward the 739 purchase. Boeing would’ve owned DL compensation whether they took delivery of the 787 or not, although it’s not likely DL would’ve ordered the 739 without the credits (sources indicated DL would go for the 321).
      We don’t care what your next flight is.
       
      User avatar
      seabosdca
      Posts: 6374
      Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:49 pm

      compensateme wrote:
      With credible sources indicating that some 321NEO will be configured with ETOPS or D1, the average gauge of the 757 will continue to decrease, and a fair number of aircraft will be retired by 2023.


      This has to happen--there are a number of earlier 757s that will reach or approach cycle limits by then, especially if they continue to be used heavily as Florida shovels. Fortunately the arrival of more A321neos will free up some 739 and A321ceo capacity to fly this stuff.

      SteelChair wrote:
      I would be very surprised to ever see Delta take the 738 Max. Like Michael Corleone ever. There are no 787 slots to trade off this time and the 739neo pricing deal they got was end of the line special pricing. Delta said when they placed the 321neo order that it was the better product. All of this is why losing that deal was such a huge loss for Boeing.


      Don't oversell the level of drama. Delta will be making plenty of narrowbody orders in the future. I tend to agree they will see some strategic advantage in keeping MAX in the fleet at their size, so Boeing will have a real shot. Whether a desire for a dual-supplier fleet is enough to swing an order to MAX likely depends on the gauge of aircraft Delta needs. If they decide to get a direct replacement for A320 and 738, the MAX 8 will be pretty compelling. If they decide to keep upgauging and have most mainline out of hubs be on 180-seat aircraft, the MAX 10 will still face an uphill battle against the A321neo.
       
      YellowJ
      Posts: 99
      Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:59 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:06 pm

      SteelChair wrote:
      Delta said when they placed the 321neo order that it was the better product. All of this is why losing that deal was such a huge loss for Boeing.


      Ed Bastian never said anything of the sort.

      ""This is the right transaction at the right time for our customers, our employees and our shareholders,” says Ed Bastian, chief executive of Delta, in a statement."

      No mention of 'better product'. Rather he kept it generic by saying the right transaction at the right time.
      Last edited by YellowJ on Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
       
      SteelChair
      Posts: 879
      Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:14 pm

      seabosdca wrote:
      SteelChair wrote:
      I would be very surprised to ever see Delta take the 738 Max. Like Michael Corleone ever. There are no 787 slots to trade off this time and the 739neo pricing deal they got was end of the line special pricing. Delta said when they placed the 321neo order that it was the better product. All of this is why losing that deal was such a huge loss for Boeing.


      Don't oversell the level of drama. Delta will be making plenty of narrowbody orders in the future. I tend to agree they will see some strategic advantage in keeping MAX in the fleet at their size, so Boeing will have a real shot. Whether a desire for a dual-supplier fleet is enough to swing an order to MAX likely depends on the gauge of aircraft Delta needs. If they decide to get a direct replacement for A320 and 738, the MAX 8 will be pretty compelling. If they decide to keep upgauging and have most mainline out of hubs be on 180-seat aircraft, the MAX 10 will still face an uphill battle against the A321neo.


      No drama. It isn't personal, its just business.

      320/738 replacement will be 220-500.....hehe. mho.

      The only argument I can see for any Max is to keep competition between both major manufacturers
       
      FSDan
      Posts: 2401
      Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:19 pm

      compensateme wrote:
      FSDan wrote:
      DL757NYC wrote:


      I thought 757’s were pulled from short flights. There was a time when LGA-ATL/ATL-LGA was almost exclusively 757’s. It’s not to say you never see them on short flights in between long segments. However I could have sworn they were using them on longer flights.


      They do a mix of short and long segments. Looking at the June 2019 schedules, routes like ATL-FLL and ATL-MCO are entirely 752 (that's 14x daily on ATL-FLL and 17x daily on ATL-MCO!). There are also 752s scheduled on routes like MSP-MSN, DTW-IND, and ATL-JAX. On the other hand, there are also domestic 752s scheduled on JFK-SAN, BOS-SFO, LAX-MCO, and of course the longer hub-hub routes like DTW-SEA, DTW-LAX, ATL-SEA, and ATL-LAX.


      This needs context:

      The average gauge of the 757 continues to decrease. When DL first introduced the 321, it was deployed on short-haul segments from ATL, primarily to Florida. As the type teethed in, the 321 shifted to primarily long-haul segments and most of the short-haul segments reverted to 757.

      Today, the 739, 321 and 753 operate the lion’s share of DL domestic flights over 3.5 hours, and an increasing number over 3 hours. The exceptions are generally 757 to continue onto Hawaii, 757 that operate (or continue onto operate, from LAX) special performance flights and flights sold with a D1 cabin; there’s also a noticeable increase in 757 flying during peak travel periods, when DL requires additional lift.

      It’s worth noting that on many flights over 3.5 hours, the 739 and 321 are replacing not only 757, but many 320 and 738 as well, yielding the MD-88’s direct replacement.

      With credible sources indicating that some 321NEO will be configured with ETOPS or D1, the average gauge of the 757 will continue to decrease, and a fair number of aircraft will be retired by 2023.


      Agreed that overall the average stage length of 757 flights at DL has decreased significantly. I was just pointing out that they do still fly transcon-type flights as well, and not just the 75S international variant.

      As a side question, is gauge a common industry term when talking about route distance? I've always heard it used in reference to the size/capacity of an aircraft.
      This is my signature until I think of a better one.
       
      User avatar
      compensateme
      Posts: 3239
      Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:49 pm

      FSDan wrote:
      compensateme wrote:
      FSDan wrote:

      They do a mix of short and long segments. Looking at the June 2019 schedules, routes like ATL-FLL and ATL-MCO are entirely 752 (that's 14x daily on ATL-FLL and 17x daily on ATL-MCO!). There are also 752s scheduled on routes like MSP-MSN, DTW-IND, and ATL-JAX. On the other hand, there are also domestic 752s scheduled on JFK-SAN, BOS-SFO, LAX-MCO, and of course the longer hub-hub routes like DTW-SEA, DTW-LAX, ATL-SEA, and ATL-LAX.


      This needs context:

      The average gauge of the 757 continues to decrease. When DL first introduced the 321, it was deployed on short-haul segments from ATL, primarily to Florida. As the type teethed in, the 321 shifted to primarily long-haul segments and most of the short-haul segments reverted to 757.

      Today, the 739, 321 and 753 operate the lion’s share of DL domestic flights over 3.5 hours, and an increasing number over 3 hours. The exceptions are generally 757 to continue onto Hawaii, 757 that operate (or continue onto operate, from LAX) special performance flights and flights sold with a D1 cabin; there’s also a noticeable increase in 757 flying during peak travel periods, when DL requires additional lift.

      It’s worth noting that on many flights over 3.5 hours, the 739 and 321 are replacing not only 757, but many 320 and 738 as well, yielding the MD-88’s direct replacement.

      With credible sources indicating that some 321NEO will be configured with ETOPS or D1, the average gauge of the 757 will continue to decrease, and a fair number of aircraft will be retired by 2023.


      Agreed that overall the average stage length of 757 flights at DL has decreased significantly. I was just pointing out that they do still fly transcon-type flights as well, and not just the 75S international variant.

      As a side question, is gauge a common industry term when talking about route distance? I've always heard it used in reference to the size/capacity of an aircraft.


      It’s not. Gauge = size, stage length = distance...
      But my first boss mixed them up and I learned from him and sometimes bad habits are hard to changes.
      We don’t care what your next flight is.
       
      SteelChair
      Posts: 879
      Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:16 pm

      YellowJ wrote:
      SteelChair wrote:
      Delta said when they placed the 321neo order that it was the better product. All of this is why losing that deal was such a huge loss for Boeing.


      Ed Bastian never said anything of the sort.

      ""This is the right transaction at the right time for our customers, our employees and our shareholders,” says Ed Bastian, chief executive of Delta, in a statement."

      No mention of 'better product'. Rather he kept it generic by saying the right transaction at the right time.


      Your quote is not the only thing Delta has ever said on the subject. I believe, but am not 100%sure, that it was in one of the subsequent earnings call q and a's, Bastian said that the A321 was "the superior product." I believe that he said this in response to the Boeing insinuation in their statement that Airbus had won solely on price. (The same old sorry song)

      And no, I dont have a link....you'll have to find it for yourself. I remember it because it was a shocking statement. I'll bet someone airplane nerdier than myself can find it.
       
      SteelChair
      Posts: 879
      Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:18 pm

      Upon further reflection I believe he said, and I'm quoting from memory, that, "The A321 won on its merit, it was clearly the better product."
       
      okie73
      Posts: 353
      Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:09 pm

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:29 pm

      SteelChair wrote:
      Upon further reflection I believe he said, and I'm quoting from memory, that, "The A321 won on its merit, it was clearly the better product."


      I flown Delta in coach on both the 739 and the 321. I don’t know about the economics of the two, but from a passenger point of the the 321 is a far superior aircraft. The 739 sucks.
       
      PSU.DTW.SCE
      Posts: 7198
      Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:34 pm

      I find both to be equal in terms of suck in terms of passenger seat on a pure comfort basis.

      Exit row 19 on the 739 is nice, and Exit Row 13 in C+ on the A321 are good. All else equally suck.

      I haven't been on any A321 flights more than 1.5 hours yet for comparison but plenty of 3-4 hour flights on 739s that tend to generally suck unless in F or the Exit Row.
       
      jagraham
      Posts: 836
      Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:37 pm

      PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
      DL757NYC wrote:
      evank516 wrote:

      I remember those days very well. However you see them on quite a few ATL-Florida runs, and I think they're on ATL-BNA now that WN flies the route as well.


      They do these quick hops in between segments I was on a 757 that went to Jacksonville I believe then to LAX. My buddy is a mechanic and he thinks it’s also to cut down on cycles. I don’t know how valid that is.


      Over the past year or so, there has been a bit of a transition of seeing fewer 757s on the DTW/MSP/ATL-west coast, with more 739 / A321 on these flights and a transition of the 757 back to more Florida flying. Like said, you are seeing more 757s on ATL-Florida again, versus when initially there was a lot of 739 and A321 on these when they were first introduced to the fleet.

      There is a routing / aircraft availability reason that it makes sense to do shorter turns in between longer segments and something you see a with a lot of RON flights.

      Yes, there is also a need to balance hours & cycles to optimize intervals between maintenance, etc. Hence the need to mix some 1 hr segments between 4 hour segments.


      FSDan wrote:
      Regarding 739 vs 321, the biggest difference I've noticed is that certain destinations tend to see mostly 739s while others tend to see mostly 321s. For example, in the Summer 2019 schedules PDX sees mostly 739s, with few or no 321s. SAN is the opposite, seeing far more 321s and few or no 739s. LAS and PHX are both heavier on the 321s than the 739s, and SFO is another example in the opposite direction of seeing way more 739s than 321s. Florida seems to get quite an even mix of 739s and 321s

      Starting last year, there has been a push to rationalize the number and types of aircraft that touch a given station, particularly for RONs. This makes it easier for crew scheduling, spare parts, maintenance, and IRROPS recovery. Its not the end-all-be-all justification, but in cases where all things are equal that is the case in some places.


      I think the 757 routing is significant. Once upon a time 757s made repeated turns on routes such as ATL - MCO. But now it appears that when 757s go to MCO, they go to somewhere else. Far away.

      It suggests that 1) 757s have utility even though 739s and A321s are cheaper to operate, and 2) DL is managing their 757s to maximize their lifespan (rather than planning for an MD-80 style early exit).
       
      laca773
      Posts: 2079
      Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:10 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:04 pm

      I know DL has sent the 739ER on LAX/SEA-KOA in the past. I don't know if it wanted to see how they would do, since these are usually 752/753 depending on demand. I suspect LAX/SEA-KOA/LIH will see more 739ERs before HNL or OGG. Though it will be interesting to see when DL gets ETOPS on their A321NEOs as both HA & AA are flying them to the islands from the West Coast now, AA for sometime now from LAX to all the islands & PHX being added later this year with their incoming NEOs.

      I do hope we see DL replace their 738 & 739s with B737MAXs. They have large enough fleets from both to continue to make it work well for them.
       
      FSDan
      Posts: 2401
      Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:50 pm

      laca773 wrote:
      I know DL has sent the 739ER on LAX/SEA-KOA in the past. I don't know if it wanted to see how they would do, since these are usually 752/753 depending on demand. I suspect LAX/SEA-KOA/LIH will see more 739ERs before HNL or OGG.


      This summer, LAX-HNL is scheduled to have 2x daily 739s and LAX-KOA is also a daily 739. The rest of the West Coast-Hawai'i flights are on 752s and 753s, plus one daily 763 on LAX-HNL to rotate 763s between Pacific ops and the rest of the network.
      This is my signature until I think of a better one.
       
      DylanHarvey
      Posts: 114
      Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:45 pm

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:03 pm

      laca773 wrote:
      I know DL has sent the 739ER on LAX/SEA-KOA in the past. I don't know if it wanted to see how they would do, since these are usually 752/753 depending on demand. I suspect LAX/SEA-KOA/LIH will see more 739ERs before HNL or OGG. Though it will be interesting to see when DL gets ETOPS on their A321NEOs as both HA & AA are flying them to the islands from the West Coast now, AA for sometime now from LAX to all the islands & PHX being added later this year with their incoming NEOs.

      I do hope we see DL replace their 738 & 739s with B737MAXs. They have large enough fleets from both to continue to make it work well for them.

      Good luck with a 737-900ER potentially at OGG. Remember delta have more ceo’s coming, and then the Neo’s. Also the 739’s are all extremely young.
       
      User avatar
      seabosdca
      Posts: 6374
      Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:25 pm

      laca773 wrote:
      I know DL has sent the 739ER on LAX/SEA-KOA in the past. I don't know if it wanted to see how they would do, since these are usually 752/753 depending on demand. I suspect LAX/SEA-KOA/LIH will see more 739ERs before HNL or OGG. Though it will be interesting to see when DL gets ETOPS on their A321NEOs as both HA & AA are flying them to the islands from the West Coast now, AA for sometime now from LAX to all the islands & PHX being added later this year with their incoming NEOs.

      I do hope we see DL replace their 738 & 739s with B737MAXs. They have large enough fleets from both to continue to make it work well for them.


      Delta dropped ETOPS certification from most of its 737-900ERs and now only has 20 with ETOPS (I think), so it can only use them for a few Hawaii routes. Apparently performance was too compromised on many routes, so Delta decided to continue with 757s until ETOPS A321neos are in the fleet. The A321ceos are not ETOPS and in any case not configured for 7-hour flights.
       
      1989worstyear
      Posts: 522
      Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:13 am

      compensateme wrote:
      FSDan wrote:
      DL757NYC wrote:


      I thought 757’s were pulled from short flights. There was a time when LGA-ATL/ATL-LGA was almost exclusively 757’s. It’s not to say you never see them on short flights in between long segments. However I could have sworn they were using them on longer flights.


      They do a mix of short and long segments. Looking at the June 2019 schedules, routes like ATL-FLL and ATL-MCO are entirely 752 (that's 14x daily on ATL-FLL and 17x daily on ATL-MCO!). There are also 752s scheduled on routes like MSP-MSN, DTW-IND, and ATL-JAX. On the other hand, there are also domestic 752s scheduled on JFK-SAN, BOS-SFO, LAX-MCO, and of course the longer hub-hub routes like DTW-SEA, DTW-LAX, ATL-SEA, and ATL-LAX.


      This needs context:

      The average gauge of the 757 continues to decrease. When DL first introduced the 321, it was deployed on short-haul segments from ATL, primarily to Florida. As the type teethed in, the 321 shifted to primarily long-haul segments and most of the short-haul segments reverted to 757.

      Today, the 739, 321 and 753 operate the lion’s share of DL domestic flights over 3.5 hours, and an increasing number over 3 hours. The exceptions are generally 757 to continue onto Hawaii, 757 that operate (or continue onto operate, from LAX) special performance flights and flights sold with a D1 cabin; there’s also a noticeable increase in 757 flying during peak travel periods, when DL requires additional lift.

      It’s worth noting that on many flights over 3.5 hours, the 739 and 321 are replacing not only 757, but many 320 and 738 as well, yielding the MD-88’s direct replacement.

      With credible sources indicating that some 321NEO will be configured with ETOPS or D1, the average gauge of the 757 will continue to decrease, and a fair number of aircraft will be retired by 2023.


      Did any of these sources indicate the 2023 timeframe?
      Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
       
      Varsity1
      Posts: 1838
      Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:23 am

      BN727227Ultra wrote:
      DL757NYC wrote:
      questions wrote:
      Do the 739 and 321 have different missions in Delta’s network? If so what are they? Are they used interchangeably? If so, when/how?


      I love the technological marvel Boeing came up with. The 739 has this new tail stand. It’s going to take Airbus years to catch up to this level of innovation.


      (snort) :lol:


      That tail stand is the exact reason a cargo door can be installed on the 737. The A321 has forward CG issues.
      "PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
       
      User avatar
      compensateme
      Posts: 3239
      Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:31 am

      1989worstyear wrote:
      compensateme wrote:
      FSDan wrote:

      They do a mix of short and long segments. Looking at the June 2019 schedules, routes like ATL-FLL and ATL-MCO are entirely 752 (that's 14x daily on ATL-FLL and 17x daily on ATL-MCO!). There are also 752s scheduled on routes like MSP-MSN, DTW-IND, and ATL-JAX. On the other hand, there are also domestic 752s scheduled on JFK-SAN, BOS-SFO, LAX-MCO, and of course the longer hub-hub routes like DTW-SEA, DTW-LAX, ATL-SEA, and ATL-LAX.


      This needs context:

      The average gauge of the 757 continues to decrease. When DL first introduced the 321, it was deployed on short-haul segments from ATL, primarily to Florida. As the type teethed in, the 321 shifted to primarily long-haul segments and most of the short-haul segments reverted to 757.

      Today, the 739, 321 and 753 operate the lion’s share of DL domestic flights over 3.5 hours, and an increasing number over 3 hours. The exceptions are generally 757 to continue onto Hawaii, 757 that operate (or continue onto operate, from LAX) special performance flights and flights sold with a D1 cabin; there’s also a noticeable increase in 757 flying during peak travel periods, when DL requires additional lift.

      It’s worth noting that on many flights over 3.5 hours, the 739 and 321 are replacing not only 757, but many 320 and 738 as well, yielding the MD-88’s direct replacement.

      With credible sources indicating that some 321NEO will be configured with ETOPS or D1, the average gauge of the 757 will continue to decrease, and a fair number of aircraft will be retired by 2023.


      Did any of these sources indicate the 2023 timeframe?


      No timeline, but the NEO will be delivered 2020 through 2023.
      We don’t care what your next flight is.
       
      F27500
      Posts: 674
      Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:52 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:18 am

      Kind of sad to see everyone with such hard-ons over these cramped narrowbody planes .. I remember the days when transcons .. and DL's ATL-Florida, NYC, California would be widebodies … all this excitement over a 737 or A320 derivative ? Snore.
       
      PSU.DTW.SCE
      Posts: 7198
      Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:29 am

      Well that ship has long sailed....it is what it is.

      Like I said, they are all varying degrees of suck.
       
      TTailedTiger
      Posts: 1039
      Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:30 am

      F27500 wrote:
      Kind of sad to see everyone with such hard-ons over these cramped narrowbody planes .. I remember the days when transcons .. and DL's ATL-Florida, NYC, California would be widebodies … all this excitement over a 737 or A320 derivative ? Snore.


      Agreed. My first time flying included an MD-11 on ATL-MCO. And later it was always hard to choose between the 763, 764, and 777 on that route.
       
      User avatar
      compensateme
      Posts: 3239
      Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:16 am

      TTailedTiger wrote:
      F27500 wrote:
      Kind of sad to see everyone with such hard-ons over these cramped narrowbody planes .. I remember the days when transcons .. and DL's ATL-Florida, NYC, California would be widebodies … all this excitement over a 737 or A320 derivative ? Snore.


      Agreed. My first time flying included an MD-11 on ATL-MCO. And later it was always hard to choose between the 763, 764, and 777 on that route.


      The days when people shopped at malls instead of Amazon, listened to FM radio instead of streaming music, left their teacup dog at home instead of pretending it’s a service dog, met at bars instead of Tindr, and didn’t pretend to know what gulten was when asking if the bread is gulten free.

      Welcome to 2019, where 15x-16x daily service to Florida triumphs over 8 or 9 widebodies, where load factors are in the 90s instead of the 50s... and where DL is making lots of $$$$.
      We don’t care what your next flight is.
       
      TTailedTiger
      Posts: 1039
      Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

      Re: Delta B739 vs A321

      Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:27 am

      compensateme wrote:
      TTailedTiger wrote:
      F27500 wrote:
      Kind of sad to see everyone with such hard-ons over these cramped narrowbody planes .. I remember the days when transcons .. and DL's ATL-Florida, NYC, California would be widebodies … all this excitement over a 737 or A320 derivative ? Snore.


      Agreed. My first time flying included an MD-11 on ATL-MCO. And later it was always hard to choose between the 763, 764, and 777 on that route.


      The days when people shopped at malls instead of Amazon, listened to FM radio instead of streaming music, left their teacup dog at home instead of pretending it’s a service dog, met at bars instead of Tindr, and didn’t pretend to know what gulten was when asking if the bread is gulten free.

      Welcome to 2019, where 15x-16x daily service to Florida triumphs over 8 or 9 widebodies, where load factors are in the 90s instead of the 50s... and where DL is making lots of $$$$.


      What's wrong with remembering better times? I don't care about Delta's profits. I'm not an investor. And don't remember ATL-MCO ever being that low. Looking at the BTS data it was still 13x daily in 1999. And very rare that there was an empty seat next to me. Maybe that was true in the 70's and 80's but that's way before my time.

      Popular Searches On Airliners.net

      Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

      Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

      Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

      Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

      Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

      Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

      Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

      Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

      Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

      Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

      Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

      Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

      Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

      Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

      Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos