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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:23 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
At what point did all of this happen in the approach? Were they on final approach? If not, why was he hand flying the aircraft? If I'm seated in the first two rows of F I can hear when the autopilot is disconnected. Usually it's jist a minute or two before landing.


It was on autopilot and they were about 24 miles from the field. He overrode the autopilot by forcing the nose down input.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:39 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
At what point did all of this happen in the approach? Were they on final approach? If not, why was he hand flying the aircraft? If I'm seated in the first two rows of F I can hear when the autopilot is disconnected. Usually it's jist a minute or two before landing.


I hand fly below 10,000 feet unless the weather requires the Auto Pilot, and a lot of pilots I fly with do the same. Doing so keeps your skills sharp, Unlike the skills of this FO.
 
NW747-400
Posts: 445
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:00 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
At what point did all of this happen in the approach? Were they on final approach? If not, why was he hand flying the aircraft? If I'm seated in the first two rows of F I can hear when the autopilot is disconnected. Usually it's jist a minute or two before landing.


They were approximately 30 miles from the airport at 6,000, so not final approach. The airplane was on autopilot, and on the 757/767 the autopilot disconnect warning does not sound provided you press the autopilot disconnect switch twice in rapid succession.

Also, it’s not uncommon to hand fly well before the final approach segment. It’s part of maintaining proficiency, and also really fun ;-)
Last edited by NW747-400 on Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4251
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:02 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
In this case, the accident FO didn’t report and actively failed to disclose employment at two carriers. It’s not a “.jacket” with every record from every employer. This is one advantage a military pilot gives HR—documentary evidence of every training event, every evaluations, every fitness report. HR asks for the Form 5, OPR record and FEF folder and an USAF pilot’s history is there, in detail. I can show checkrides taken 40 years ago.

GF


Perhaps it's time for the FAA to require mandatory record keeping in a central database for ATP flying. It can hold all training records, or at the minimum summaries of them - and also require quarterly updates to the certificate holder's file of hours in type with that carrier. No more voluntarily withheld information - this dude lied and killed 2 innocent men.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:08 pm

Maybe, but there might be privacy issues there. Rumor from what appears to be an Atlas insider is that he was also fired from Colgan and there’s a trail of employment discrimination suits over his terminations. And, to add icing, his family has sued Amazon and Atlas citing the fact he shouldn’t have been hired. The court cases, outside of the NTSB investigation, will be interesting.
 
jetmatt777
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Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:11 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Maybe, but there might be privacy issues there. Rumor from what appears to be an Atlas insider is that he was also fired from Colgan and there’s a trail of employment discrimination suits over his terminations. And, to add icing, his family has sued Amazon and Atlas citing the fact he shouldn’t have been hired. The court cases, outside of the NTSB investigation, will be interesting.


I have a credit score - if I apply for a loan from Chase, they can see my payment dates, outstanding balances, and any other financial information from any other company.

If someone applies for a job flying people or property - the company hiring should be able to see whatever they need to with regards to safety, experience, and potentially dangerous behavior.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:29 pm

With from the investigation we know more about the pilots flying, their flying records, the CVR and FDR records, the weather conditions, as with many crashes, several factors were involved. Many will be first to blame the pilots and there seems to be plenty of evidence to do so. Some will blame poor management and processes of hiring and training their pilots. Some will blame poor CRM or Boeing or the makers of what was a possible faulty instrument. Fatigue doesn't seem to be an issue. Although the plane had an significant number of hours and cycle, it was still in very good flyable condition. MX doesn't seem to be an issue either.

From what we know so far, Atlas group needs to make some critical changes as to the hiring and management of their pilots. Clearly the FO was borderline at best as to qualifications, CRM and his record was poor. The co-pilot was weak in experience and CRM too. We are fortunate this didn't crash into a populated area so only those on the plane were killed, but it was 3 too many.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:35 pm

NW747-400 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
At what point did all of this happen in the approach? Were they on final approach? If not, why was he hand flying the aircraft? If I'm seated in the first two rows of F I can hear when the autopilot is disconnected. Usually it's jist a minute or two before landing.


They were approximately 30 miles from the airport at 6,000, so not final approach. The airplane was on autopilot, and on the 757/767 the autopilot disconnect warning does not sound provided you press the autopilot disconnect switch twice in rapid succession.

Also, it’s not uncommon to hand fly well before the final approach segment. It’s part of maintaining proficiency, and also really fun ;-)


More power to you so long as you can still provide the passengers the same ride the autopilot provides. I knew a chief pilot for a corporate fleet and they forbid it for that reason. Can't have the champagne flying with an abrupt turn.
 
EC135C
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:50 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:37 pm

arcticcruiser wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
CaptCoolHand wrote:

I don’t fly the 767, but Yes it’s called a TOGA switch. It triggers the take off and go around mode for the plane.
12 hrs ago When I was doing my IOE we had to do a no auto throttle approach and instead of turning off the auto throttles I hit the TOGA. It was a surprise but an easy fix. Bottom line, when the plane isn’t doing what it’s supposed to reduce automation. Turn it all off. Fly the plane.


Actually on the 767-200/-300 and 757, the TO/GA Switch doesn’t initiate takeoff thrust, only go-around. It’s actually called the GA Switches. You push the THR Switch on the MCP to engage the Autothrottle for takeoff.

The TO/GA Switch does initiate takeoff on the 767-400 and KC-46.
BoeingGuy wrote:
Indy wrote:

Just amazing. Is there a 767 pilot that can confirm whether or not the events described in the post are plausible. I am not a pilot and I have no idea if a go around switch exists and whether or not it is located where the post describes and whether or not you could accidentally hit it.


The Go-Around Switches on the 757/767 are on the aft side of the throttle quadrant (they’re forward on the 777/787 and on both sides on the 767-400 and KC-46).

This is why they are called accidents.
On the 767, you push them in and a bit up with your thumb. They aren’t a very big target. Knowing the geometry of the GA Switches and how you push then, I’m having trouble believing that one’s arm could accidentally hit them without also hitting the thrust levers themselves. I’m not sure I could do that if I tried.

Even if this did occur, didn’t the F/O figure out quickly what to do? You go click-click and click-click and actually fly the airplane. This is a skill that many pilots seem to lack.

The number of airplanes that fall out of the sky because of a simple malfunction or unintended action of the auto flight system is amazing. TK, OZ, maybe this. Whatever happened to flying the airplane?

The other thing suspect is the implication they could hear the trim motors. If the meant the moving trim wheels like the 737, then it’s a bogus report. The 767 trim wouldn’t be heard on the CVR. I’m not sure it would kick in automatically either as implied in the article.

To me, the authenticity of that report is inconclusive.


I don’t buy this GA switch thing either. It would take a massively incompetent crew. I have about 12K hrs on 757/767 which have identical setup (sans the 764). Last 16 years as an instructor and a lot of line training. Never seen an issue. A couple of accidental GA selections (iso A/T off). But never an issue.
 
EC135C
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:38 pm

This is why they are called accidents.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:45 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
NW747-400 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
At what point did all of this happen in the approach? Were they on final approach? If not, why was he hand flying the aircraft? If I'm seated in the first two rows of F I can hear when the autopilot is disconnected. Usually it's jist a minute or two before landing.


They were approximately 30 miles from the airport at 6,000, so not final approach. The airplane was on autopilot, and on the 757/767 the autopilot disconnect warning does not sound provided you press the autopilot disconnect switch twice in rapid succession.

Also, it’s not uncommon to hand fly well before the final approach segment. It’s part of maintaining proficiency, and also really fun ;-)


More power to you so long as you can still provide the passengers the same ride the autopilot provides. I knew a chief pilot for a corporate fleet and they forbid it for that reason. Can't have the champagne flying with an abrupt turn.


I flew a lot of corporate, 18 years, hand flew whenever it was appropriate or I wanted to. Also, as a corporate chief pilot, I wouldn’t have thought to restrict my pilots from hand flying. There’s no excuse for “abrupt” turns, if you are held decent at hand flying. One thing formation teaches is smoothness.
 
OB1504
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:46 pm

cdark wrote:
The FO freaked out. Plain and simple.

Turning off automation and clearly designating a flying pilot would’ve prevented this accident. If you read this thread in full, there are several 757/767 pilots who have seen an accidental Go-Around activation and described it as a “non-event”.

This may go down as one of the worst pilot-error accidents ever.


Too busy panicking and saying his prayers to focus on what is actually happening with the airplane.
 
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zeke
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:55 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
In this case, the accident FO didn’t report and actively failed to disclose employment at two carriers. It’s not a “.jacket” with every record from every employer. This is one advantage a military pilot gives HR—documentary evidence of every training event, every evaluations, every fitness report. HR asks for the Form 5, OPR record and FEF folder and an USAF pilot’s history is there, in detail. I can show checkrides taken 40 years ago.


When conducting checks on pilots I never look at their previous reports, never ask about their previous experience. I just look at what they do I front of me on the day.

To use previous reports as the basis to either pass or fail a pilot is not only illegal under most HR systems, it is illegal under the regulatory check requirements. You can only work with what you have personally seen.

There is a very wide band of competency that is permitted under the regulations and airline SOP's, some pilots would be described as above average, others below average, however that average box is very big. I have never come across someone I would describe as being exceptional, in reality checks flights are benign flights from A to B with normal Wx conditions.

When it comes to new hires, it is up to the airline to get them up to standard before they are released to the line. If they cannot make it past the simulator and line flying training the airline should let them go. Previous experience and previous reports should not be used as the basis to let them being released from training.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 187
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:16 pm

zeke wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
In this case, the accident FO didn’t report and actively failed to disclose employment at two carriers. It’s not a “.jacket” with every record from every employer. This is one advantage a military pilot gives HR—documentary evidence of every training event, every evaluations, every fitness report. HR asks for the Form 5, OPR record and FEF folder and an USAF pilot’s history is there, in detail. I can show checkrides taken 40 years ago.


When conducting checks on pilots I never look at their previous reports, never ask about their previous experience. I just look at what they do I front of me on the day.

To use previous reports as the basis to either pass or fail a pilot is not only illegal under most HR systems, it is illegal under the regulatory check requirements. You can only work with what you have personally seen.

There is a very wide band of competency that is permitted under the regulations and airline SOP's, some pilots would be described as above average, others below average, however that average box is very big. I have never come across someone I would describe as being exceptional, in reality checks flights are benign flights from A to B with normal Wx conditions.

When it comes to new hires, it is up to the airline to get them up to standard before they are released to the line. If they cannot make it past the simulator and line flying training the airline should let them go. Previous experience and previous reports should not be used as the basis to let them being released from training.


Let me guess...you don't work in America and aren't familiar with PRIA? The whole point of PRIA is to expose previous training and checking deficiencies to future potential employers. There's a reason every single part 121/135 operator uses PRIA information for hiring decisions. A history of training issues has been a factor in many mishaps, hence why that legislation was passed and still exists today. And shocker, this accident, caused by gross incompetence by a terrible pilot with a horrible training history could have been prevented if all his past was properly exposed and he wasn't employed by any airline (as the case should have been).
 
jetmatt777
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Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:22 pm

zeke wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
In this case, the accident FO didn’t report and actively failed to disclose employment at two carriers. It’s not a “.jacket” with every record from every employer. This is one advantage a military pilot gives HR—documentary evidence of every training event, every evaluations, every fitness report. HR asks for the Form 5, OPR record and FEF folder and an USAF pilot’s history is there, in detail. I can show checkrides taken 40 years ago.


When conducting checks on pilots I never look at their previous reports, never ask about their previous experience. I just look at what they do I front of me on the day.

To use previous reports as the basis to either pass or fail a pilot is not only illegal under most HR systems, it is illegal under the regulatory check requirements. You can only work with what you have personally seen.

There is a very wide band of competency that is permitted under the regulations and airline SOP's, some pilots would be described as above average, others below average, however that average box is very big. I have never come across someone I would describe as being exceptional, in reality checks flights are benign flights from A to B with normal Wx conditions.

When it comes to new hires, it is up to the airline to get them up to standard before they are released to the line. If they cannot make it past the simulator and line flying training the airline should let them go. Previous experience and previous reports should not be used as the basis to let them being released from training.


So, can I apply for a job with your company with a fake pilot's certificate and you will not do any background check to see if I am lying about having 25,000 hours of FT? As long as I can talk the talk I am good to go?

If you are flying the public or the public's goods on federally maintained and managed airways, landing and taking off on publicly owned and maintained airports, flying aircraft that are certified under publicly governed bodies - your records should not be private information. We aren't talking about working at Mcdonald's - your flying records should not be withheld from employers - I am not saying it should be public record, but it should be available to any part 121 carrier making the request with a valid reason - I.E. hiring.
 
Cubsrule
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Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:43 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Maybe, but there might be privacy issues there. Rumor from what appears to be an Atlas insider is that he was also fired from Colgan and there’s a trail of employment discrimination suits over his terminations. And, to add icing, his family has sued Amazon and Atlas citing the fact he shouldn’t have been hired. The court cases, outside of the NTSB investigation, will be interesting.


I have a credit score - if I apply for a loan from Chase, they can see my payment dates, outstanding balances, and any other financial information from any other company.

If someone applies for a job flying people or property - the company hiring should be able to see whatever they need to with regards to safety, experience, and potentially dangerous behavior.


Other than the fact that no “score” is calculated, isn’t this more or less what PRIA is supposed to do? It didn’t work here (read the factual report) but in theory it provides a history.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1036
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:45 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
zeke wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
In this case, the accident FO didn’t report and actively failed to disclose employment at two carriers. It’s not a “.jacket” with every record from every employer. This is one advantage a military pilot gives HR—documentary evidence of every training event, every evaluations, every fitness report. HR asks for the Form 5, OPR record and FEF folder and an USAF pilot’s history is there, in detail. I can show checkrides taken 40 years ago.


When conducting checks on pilots I never look at their previous reports, never ask about their previous experience. I just look at what they do I front of me on the day.

To use previous reports as the basis to either pass or fail a pilot is not only illegal under most HR systems, it is illegal under the regulatory check requirements. You can only work with what you have personally seen.

There is a very wide band of competency that is permitted under the regulations and airline SOP's, some pilots would be described as above average, others below average, however that average box is very big. I have never come across someone I would describe as being exceptional, in reality checks flights are benign flights from A to B with normal Wx conditions.

When it comes to new hires, it is up to the airline to get them up to standard before they are released to the line. If they cannot make it past the simulator and line flying training the airline should let them go. Previous experience and previous reports should not be used as the basis to let them being released from training.


Let me guess...you don't work in America and aren't familiar with PRIA? The whole point of PRIA is to expose previous training and checking deficiencies to future potential employers. There's a reason every single part 121/135 operator uses PRIA information for hiring decisions. A history of training issues has been a factor in many mishaps, hence why that legislation was passed and still exists today. And shocker, this accident, caused by gross incompetence by a terrible pilot with a horrible training history could have been prevented if all his past was properly exposed and he wasn't employed by any airline (as the case should have been).


That’s not what Zeke meant. I agree with him when I give a pilot a check ride I do not look back at his previous training because eI don’t want to be bias.

My assumption as an evaluator is that the company hired the best pilot and our training department gave him/her the best training and I am now going to give this pilot his final check ride.

That is what Zeke said. If we give a check ride with a bias it is not fair to the applicant.
 
NW747-400
Posts: 445
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 1999 4:42 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:47 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
NW747-400 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
At what point did all of this happen in the approach? Were they on final approach? If not, why was he hand flying the aircraft? If I'm seated in the first two rows of F I can hear when the autopilot is disconnected. Usually it's jist a minute or two before landing.


They were approximately 30 miles from the airport at 6,000, so not final approach. The airplane was on autopilot, and on the 757/767 the autopilot disconnect warning does not sound provided you press the autopilot disconnect switch twice in rapid succession.

Also, it’s not uncommon to hand fly well before the final approach segment. It’s part of maintaining proficiency, and also really fun ;-)


More power to you so long as you can still provide the passengers the same ride the autopilot provides. I knew a chief pilot for a corporate fleet and they forbid it for that reason. Can't have the champagne flying with an abrupt turn.


In many situations, a professional pilot can be more smooth on the controls than the autopilot. Sometimes when the autopilot gets a bit aggressive we disconnect earlier than planned.

Also, your chief pilot friend is setting up his crews for failure. Maintaining proficiency with all levels of automation is absolutely paramount to safety of flight. 5Y3591 is a perfect example; something tells me the first officer was less than comfortable hand flying the 767 because neither the autopilot nor the autothrottle disconnect switches were ever pressed.

I have plenty of friends that are current / ex corporate pilots and they would all tell you that rule is bogus.
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:04 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
zeke wrote:

When conducting checks on pilots I never look at their previous reports, never ask about their previous experience. I just look at what they do I front of me on the day.

To use previous reports as the basis to either pass or fail a pilot is not only illegal under most HR systems, it is illegal under the regulatory check requirements. You can only work with what you have personally seen.

There is a very wide band of competency that is permitted under the regulations and airline SOP's, some pilots would be described as above average, others below average, however that average box is very big. I have never come across someone I would describe as being exceptional, in reality checks flights are benign flights from A to B with normal Wx conditions.

When it comes to new hires, it is up to the airline to get them up to standard before they are released to the line. If they cannot make it past the simulator and line flying training the airline should let them go. Previous experience and previous reports should not be used as the basis to let them being released from training.


Let me guess...you don't work in America and aren't familiar with PRIA? The whole point of PRIA is to expose previous training and checking deficiencies to future potential employers. There's a reason every single part 121/135 operator uses PRIA information for hiring decisions. A history of training issues has been a factor in many mishaps, hence why that legislation was passed and still exists today. And shocker, this accident, caused by gross incompetence by a terrible pilot with a horrible training history could have been prevented if all his past was properly exposed and he wasn't employed by any airline (as the case should have been).


That’s not what Zeke meant. I agree with him when I give a pilot a check ride I do not look back at his previous training because eI don’t want to be bias.

My assumption as an evaluator is that the company hired the best pilot and our training department gave him/her the best training and I am now going to give this pilot his final check ride.

That is what Zeke said. If we give a check ride with a bias it is not fair to the applicant.


The topic being discussed by galaxyflyer to which zeke replied was about pilot hiring practices, so that's what I (mis)read zeke's post as being about, not about an individual checking event. Aska's multiple training failures at multiple airlines, as well as those within Atlas itself, should speak for themselves. He should have never gotten to Atlas, nor should he have gotten behind the wheel of a real 767. Hindsight is 20/20, but there was enough that existed that it shouldn't have ever been looked at with hindsight because he shouldn't have ever been there.
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1036
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:11 am

JoseSalazar wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:

Let me guess...you don't work in America and aren't familiar with PRIA? The whole point of PRIA is to expose previous training and checking deficiencies to future potential employers. There's a reason every single part 121/135 operator uses PRIA information for hiring decisions. A history of training issues has been a factor in many mishaps, hence why that legislation was passed and still exists today. And shocker, this accident, caused by gross incompetence by a terrible pilot with a horrible training history could have been prevented if all his past was properly exposed and he wasn't employed by any airline (as the case should have been).


That’s not what Zeke meant. I agree with him when I give a pilot a check ride I do not look back at his previous training because eI don’t want to be bias.

My assumption as an evaluator is that the company hired the best pilot and our training department gave him/her the best training and I am now going to give this pilot his final check ride.

That is what Zeke said. If we give a check ride with a bias it is not fair to the applicant.


The topic being discussed by galaxyflyer to which zeke replied was about pilot hiring practices, so that's what I (mis)read zeke's post as being about, not about an individual checking event. Aska's multiple training failures at multiple airlines, as well as those within Atlas itself, should speak for themselves. He should have never gotten to Atlas, nor should he have gotten behind the wheel of a real 767. Hindsight is 20/20, but there was enough that existed that it shouldn't have ever been looked at with hindsight because he shouldn't have ever been there.


Agreed....he is a fraud in my eyes.
 
astaz
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:41 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:15 am

zeke wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
In this case, the accident FO didn’t report and actively failed to disclose employment at two carriers. It’s not a “.jacket” with every record from every employer. This is one advantage a military pilot gives HR—documentary evidence of every training event, every evaluations, every fitness report. HR asks for the Form 5, OPR record and FEF folder and an USAF pilot’s history is there, in detail. I can show checkrides taken 40 years ago.


When conducting checks on pilots I never look at their previous reports, never ask about their previous experience. I just look at what they do I front of me on the day.

To use previous reports as the basis to either pass or fail a pilot is not only illegal under most HR systems, it is illegal under the regulatory check requirements. You can only work with what you have personally seen.

There is a very wide band of competency that is permitted under the regulations and airline SOP's, some pilots would be described as above average, others below average, however that average box is very big. I have never come across someone I would describe as being exceptional, in reality checks flights are benign flights from A to B with normal Wx conditions.

When it comes to new hires, it is up to the airline to get them up to standard before they are released to the line. If they cannot make it past the simulator and line flying training the airline should let them go. Previous experience and previous reports should not be used as the basis to let them being released from training.


For checking events, I agree. However, the fact that he was able to hide washouts from an employer, is inexcusable. This needs to be readily available to a 121 hiring department prior to making a hiring decision. I’m not talking about a guy who failed one, or two, or even three check rides years ago, but someone who has failed check rides at EVERY airline he’s worked at (in this case 4 previous that we know about, and some are saying 5) should be a serious red flag to a future employer. The FAA should centralize these records, and make them universally accessible to airlines.
 
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zeke
Posts: 14960
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:16 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
So, can I apply for a job with your company with a fake pilot's certificate and you will not do any background check to see if I am lying about having 25,000 hours of FT? As long as I can talk the talk I am good to go?


We take around 150 pilots a year with no experience and we take pilots with thousands of hours of experience.

There is nothing stopping you from applying with fake credentials and experience, the process clearly indicates there is serious implications if false or misleading information is supplied. We have terminated the recruitment process a number of times during the interview and simulator assessments when people not meet expectations.

Even people with real experience and qualifications do not always pass. You would be surprised at the standards out there and why I don’t travel on some airlines.

When hired every new pilot with experience needs to have their licence converted. This involves our CAA verifying the foreign licence with the CAA that issued the certificate.

The information supplied during the application process includes a licence conversion form and certified copy of the certificate. If the certificate is found to be fake by the original CAA that issued the certificate it has resulted in criminal charges a number of times, and obviously no licence is issued by our CAA.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
mysfit
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:16 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:22 am

I thought somewhere on this thread it was stated he was hired by HR over objections....to avoid legal action.

Sounds more like he could respond to canned responses and push buttons rather than being a pilot.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2367
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:30 am

NW747-400 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
NW747-400 wrote:

They were approximately 30 miles from the airport at 6,000, so not final approach. The airplane was on autopilot, and on the 757/767 the autopilot disconnect warning does not sound provided you press the autopilot disconnect switch twice in rapid succession.

Also, it’s not uncommon to hand fly well before the final approach segment. It’s part of maintaining proficiency, and also really fun ;-)


More power to you so long as you can still provide the passengers the same ride the autopilot provides. I knew a chief pilot for a corporate fleet and they forbid it for that reason. Can't have the champagne flying with an abrupt turn.


In many situations, a professional pilot can be more smooth on the controls than the autopilot. Sometimes when the autopilot gets a bit aggressive we disconnect earlier than planned.

Also, your chief pilot friend is setting up his crews for failure. Maintaining proficiency with all levels of automation is absolutely paramount to safety of flight. 5Y3591 is a perfect example; something tells me the first officer was less than comfortable hand flying the 767 because neither the autopilot nor the autothrottle disconnect switches were ever pressed.

I have plenty of friends that are current / ex corporate pilots and they would all tell you that rule is bogus.


He was based in Dubai. When you are flying around people with that kind of money you are probably going to try and make their flight as comfortable as possible. On a windy day you can definitely tell when the autopilot is kicked off.

While manual flying skills were likely an issue for this pilot, if he had taken two seconds to assess the situation he would have seen they were in no peril. He should never have been near an airplane. I do agree that basic airmanship skills need to be regularly evaluated. And if you're going into someplace like Cedar Rapid Iowa then by all means hand fly the approach. But when maneuvering through busy airspace like New York or Atlanta then it would be best to utilize all available automation to lessen the workload.
 
NW747-400
Posts: 445
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 1999 4:42 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:00 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
NW747-400 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

More power to you so long as you can still provide the passengers the same ride the autopilot provides. I knew a chief pilot for a corporate fleet and they forbid it for that reason. Can't have the champagne flying with an abrupt turn.


In many situations, a professional pilot can be more smooth on the controls than the autopilot. Sometimes when the autopilot gets a bit aggressive we disconnect earlier than planned.

Also, your chief pilot friend is setting up his crews for failure. Maintaining proficiency with all levels of automation is absolutely paramount to safety of flight. 5Y3591 is a perfect example; something tells me the first officer was less than comfortable hand flying the 767 because neither the autopilot nor the autothrottle disconnect switches were ever pressed.

I have plenty of friends that are current / ex corporate pilots and they would all tell you that rule is bogus.


He was based in Dubai. When you are flying around people with that kind of money you are probably going to try and make their flight as comfortable as possible. On a windy day you can definitely tell when the autopilot is kicked off.

While manual flying skills were likely an issue for this pilot, if he had taken two seconds to assess the situation he would have seen they were in no peril. He should never have been near an airplane. I do agree that basic airmanship skills need to be regularly evaluated. And if you're going into someplace like Cedar Rapid Iowa then by all means hand fly the approach. But when maneuvering through busy airspace like New York or Atlanta then it would be best to utilize all available automation to lessen the workload.


Are you a pilot? I have 10,000 hours of flight time, 3,000 in the aircraft involved in this thread. We handfly into NYC and ATL all the time.

Also, autopilots are typically far more aggressive in gusty winds than an experienced pilot because they tend to over correct.

Please stop arguing with us about this if you don’t actually have any experience.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 5600
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:11 am

zeke wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
In this case, the accident FO didn’t report and actively failed to disclose employment at two carriers. It’s not a “.jacket” with every record from every employer. This is one advantage a military pilot gives HR—documentary evidence of every training event, every evaluations, every fitness report. HR asks for the Form 5, OPR record and FEF folder and an USAF pilot’s history is there, in detail. I can show checkrides taken 40 years ago.


When conducting checks on pilots I never look at their previous reports, never ask about their previous experience. I just look at what they do I front of me on the day.

To use previous reports as the basis to either pass or fail a pilot is not only illegal under most HR systems, it is illegal under the regulatory check requirements. You can only work with what you have personally seen.

There is a very wide band of competency that is permitted under the regulations and airline SOP's, some pilots would be described as above average, others below average, however that average box is very big. I have never come across someone I would describe as being exceptional, in reality checks flights are benign flights from A to B with normal Wx conditions.

When it comes to new hires, it is up to the airline to get them up to standard before they are released to the line. If they cannot make it past the simulator and line flying training the airline should let them go. Previous experience and previous reports should not be used as the basis to let them being released from training.


Zeke,

I’m posting about HIRING, not checking. In the US, military pilots tend to have a complete record of flying and professional background; records that are well known and understood by hiring officials. Agreed on giving Evans, though.

GF
 
Spetsnaz55
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:38 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:18 am

NW747-400 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
NW747-400 wrote:

In many situations, a professional pilot can be more smooth on the controls than the autopilot. Sometimes when the autopilot gets a bit aggressive we disconnect earlier than planned.

Also, your chief pilot friend is setting up his crews for failure. Maintaining proficiency with all levels of automation is absolutely paramount to safety of flight. 5Y3591 is a perfect example; something tells me the first officer was less than comfortable hand flying the 767 because neither the autopilot nor the autothrottle disconnect switches were ever pressed.

I have plenty of friends that are current / ex corporate pilots and they would all tell you that rule is bogus.


He was based in Dubai. When you are flying around people with that kind of money you are probably going to try and make their flight as comfortable as possible. On a windy day you can definitely tell when the autopilot is kicked off.

While manual flying skills were likely an issue for this pilot, if he had taken two seconds to assess the situation he would have seen they were in no peril. He should never have been near an airplane. I do agree that basic airmanship skills need to be regularly evaluated. And if you're going into someplace like Cedar Rapid Iowa then by all means hand fly the approach. But when maneuvering through busy airspace like New York or Atlanta then it would be best to utilize all available automation to lessen the workload.


Are you a pilot? I have 10,000 hours of flight time, 3,000 in the aircraft involved in this thread. We handfly into NYC and ATL all the time.

Also, autopilots are typically far more aggressive in gusty winds than an experienced pilot because they tend to over correct.

Please stop arguing with us about this if you don’t actually have any experience.



Quite a lot of people on here talk about things they know nothing about and argue for the sake of arguing..
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14960
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:27 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I’m posting about HIRING, not checking. In the US, military pilots tend to have a complete record of flying and professional background; records that are well known and understood by hiring officials. Agreed on giving Evans, though.

GF


I was talking about hiring also, I don’t give a toss if the were on a KC135 or a C172, they have to perform on the day before being released from training.

I have failed a USAF KC135 pilot before, and their employment was terminated. If people don’t put the work in, keep bragging about what they used to do, what they used to fly, the procedures they used to follow does not cut it with me.

I need them to follow the airlines published SOPs and fly the aircraft they are being checked on.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 5600
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:39 am

zeke wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I’m posting about HIRING, not checking. In the US, military pilots tend to have a complete record of flying and professional background; records that are well known and understood by hiring officials. Agreed on giving Evans, though.

GF


I was talking about hiring also, I don’t give a toss if the were on a KC135 or a C172, they have to perform on the day before being released from training.

I have failed a USAF KC135 pilot before, and their employment was terminated. If people don’t put the work in, keep bragging about what they used to do, what they used to fly, the procedures they used to follow does not cut it with me.

I need them to follow the airlines published SOPs and fly the aircraft they are being checked on.


Doesn’t cut it with me, either. I’m talking from the perceptive of HR reviewing work history—one group has an easily understood background, well documented. The other group can hide failures, may have work history gaps that create records problems that the PRIA Act was supposed to solve. After the date of hire is a new day—meet standards, period. I had a squadron mate that flunked out of a US legacy in week 2 and we could have predicted it happening—poor CRM and a big head over his background. Recently, an operation I’m well familiar with had a well experienced pilot fail to be recommended for his rating ride, now out of work.
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 2133
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:51 am

EC135C wrote:
This is why they are called accidents.


A superior pilot is one that uses their superior knowledge to avoid situations that would require their superior skills

Do the math. This guy shouldn't have even been in a simulator let alone an actual cockpit. Accident? Seriously?

This was flat out stupidity. Across the board.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
User avatar
GE90man
Posts: 221
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:10 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:53 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
NW747-400 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
At what point did all of this happen in the approach? Were they on final approach? If not, why was he hand flying the aircraft? If I'm seated in the first two rows of F I can hear when the autopilot is disconnected. Usually it's jist a minute or two before landing.


They were approximately 30 miles from the airport at 6,000, so not final approach. The airplane was on autopilot, and on the 757/767 the autopilot disconnect warning does not sound provided you press the autopilot disconnect switch twice in rapid succession.

Also, it’s not uncommon to hand fly well before the final approach segment. It’s part of maintaining proficiency, and also really fun ;-)


More power to you so long as you can still provide the passengers the same ride the autopilot provides. I knew a chief pilot for a corporate fleet and they forbid it for that reason. Can't have the champagne flying with an abrupt turn.


Can't [shouldn't] have champagne under 10,000.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2367
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:55 am

NW747-400 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
NW747-400 wrote:

In many situations, a professional pilot can be more smooth on the controls than the autopilot. Sometimes when the autopilot gets a bit aggressive we disconnect earlier than planned.

Also, your chief pilot friend is setting up his crews for failure. Maintaining proficiency with all levels of automation is absolutely paramount to safety of flight. 5Y3591 is a perfect example; something tells me the first officer was less than comfortable hand flying the 767 because neither the autopilot nor the autothrottle disconnect switches were ever pressed.

I have plenty of friends that are current / ex corporate pilots and they would all tell you that rule is bogus.


He was based in Dubai. When you are flying around people with that kind of money you are probably going to try and make their flight as comfortable as possible. On a windy day you can definitely tell when the autopilot is kicked off.

While manual flying skills were likely an issue for this pilot, if he had taken two seconds to assess the situation he would have seen they were in no peril. He should never have been near an airplane. I do agree that basic airmanship skills need to be regularly evaluated. And if you're going into someplace like Cedar Rapid Iowa then by all means hand fly the approach. But when maneuvering through busy airspace like New York or Atlanta then it would be best to utilize all available automation to lessen the workload.


Are you a pilot? I have 10,000 hours of flight time, 3,000 in the aircraft involved in this thread. We handfly into NYC and ATL all the time.

Also, autopilots are typically far more aggressive in gusty winds than an experienced pilot because they tend to over correct.

Please stop arguing with us about this if you don’t actually have any experience.


Yes I have had my PPL and instrument ratings for nearly a decade and recently got my commerical rating. I have no intention of flying for an airline though. But I know plenty of pilots that do fly for airlines. The airline pilots I know are also quite humble. So maybe that is where the difference comes in. I've never heard any of them claim they can fly better than the autopilot. But I'll take your word for it that you can. I tend to believe a combination of automation and good airmanship are ideal. An over-reliance on automation is where trouble comes in. But there are boards out there just for airline pilots. Maybe that would suit you better if you don't like hearing from anyone else. Keep in mind that you're the one who chose to respond to my post. I never rang your bell.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2367
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:56 am

GE90man wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
NW747-400 wrote:

They were approximately 30 miles from the airport at 6,000, so not final approach. The airplane was on autopilot, and on the 757/767 the autopilot disconnect warning does not sound provided you press the autopilot disconnect switch twice in rapid succession.

Also, it’s not uncommon to hand fly well before the final approach segment. It’s part of maintaining proficiency, and also really fun ;-)


More power to you so long as you can still provide the passengers the same ride the autopilot provides. I knew a chief pilot for a corporate fleet and they forbid it for that reason. Can't have the champagne flying with an abrupt turn.


Can't [shouldn't] have champagne under 10,000.


Yes, shouldn't being the key word. ;)
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1036
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 2:14 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
NW747-400 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

He was based in Dubai. When you are flying around people with that kind of money you are probably going to try and make their flight as comfortable as possible. On a windy day you can definitely tell when the autopilot is kicked off.

While manual flying skills were likely an issue for this pilot, if he had taken two seconds to assess the situation he would have seen they were in no peril. He should never have been near an airplane. I do agree that basic airmanship skills need to be regularly evaluated. And if you're going into someplace like Cedar Rapid Iowa then by all means hand fly the approach. But when maneuvering through busy airspace like New York or Atlanta then it would be best to utilize all available automation to lessen the workload.


Are you a pilot? I have 10,000 hours of flight time, 3,000 in the aircraft involved in this thread. We handfly into NYC and ATL all the time.

Also, autopilots are typically far more aggressive in gusty winds than an experienced pilot because they tend to over correct.

Please stop arguing with us about this if you don’t actually have any experience.


Yes I have had my PPL and instrument ratings for nearly a decade and recently got my commerical rating. I have no intention of flying for an airline though. But I know plenty of pilots that do fly for airlines. The airline pilots I know are also quite humble. So maybe that is where the difference comes in. I've never heard any of them claim they can fly better than the autopilot. But I'll take your word for it that you can. I tend to believe a combination of automation and good airmanship are ideal. An over-reliance on automation is where trouble comes in. But there are boards out there just for airline pilots. Maybe that would suit you better if you don't like hearing from anyone else. Keep in mind that you're the one who chose to respond to my post. I never rang your bell.


There are times when a pilot can fly better than the autopilot, especially on older generation aircraft.

Examples:

- sharp vectors to a Localizer. The Localizer will come alive and the AP will perform a rapid bank to intercept and will usually overshoot causing an S turn down final. A pilot can anticipate the LOC coming alive.

- a vector where the LOC and glide slope capture at the same time. The AP will not capture the GS until the LOC is captured. So the LOC will capture then the plane will aggressively pitch down. The AT will lag and the speed will increase. You can over speed flaps or need speed breaks in this situation.

- as mentioned gusty winds cause the AP problems and will cause S turns down final. Also the AT in a 757/767 for example cannot keep up causing significant speed changes causing uncomfortable pitch momentS about the vertical axis.

- Windshear cannot be flown with all AP the 787 does a great job......767 not so much.

- quick level offs. Most APs have logic built in that “smooths the ride”. So it will pitch down and reduce throttles slowly. If you are within 1000’ of an alt climbing at 3000 FPM and ATC gives you a traffic advisory with a quick level off if you leave the AP on you will overshoot your altitude by several hundred feet.

These are just a few examples....mostly I don’t want to type anymore.... :D . What do you notice about the examples given? They are all approach and departure situations. That is why a lot of pilots hand fly below 10,000 and yes sometimes a pilot can fly better than the AP.....ego has nothing to do with it.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2367
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 2:16 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
NW747-400 wrote:

Are you a pilot? I have 10,000 hours of flight time, 3,000 in the aircraft involved in this thread. We handfly into NYC and ATL all the time.

Also, autopilots are typically far more aggressive in gusty winds than an experienced pilot because they tend to over correct.

Please stop arguing with us about this if you don’t actually have any experience.


Yes I have had my PPL and instrument ratings for nearly a decade and recently got my commerical rating. I have no intention of flying for an airline though. But I know plenty of pilots that do fly for airlines. The airline pilots I know are also quite humble. So maybe that is where the difference comes in. I've never heard any of them claim they can fly better than the autopilot. But I'll take your word for it that you can. I tend to believe a combination of automation and good airmanship are ideal. An over-reliance on automation is where trouble comes in. But there are boards out there just for airline pilots. Maybe that would suit you better if you don't like hearing from anyone else. Keep in mind that you're the one who chose to respond to my post. I never rang your bell.


There are times when a pilot can fly better than the autopilot, especially on older generation aircraft.

Examples:

- sharp vectors to a Localizer. The Localizer will come alive and the AP will perform a rapid bank to intercept and will usually overshoot causing an S turn down final. A pilot can anticipate the LOC coming alive.

- a vector where the LOC and glide slope capture at the same time. The AP will not capture the GS until the LOC is captured. So the LOC will capture then the plane will aggressively pitch down. The AT will lag and the speed will increase. You can over speed flaps or need speed breaks in this situation.

- as mentioned gusty winds cause the AP problems and will cause S turns down final. Also the AT in a 757/767 for example cannot keep up causing significant speed changes causing uncomfortable pitch momentS about the vertical axis.

- Windshear cannot be flown with all AP the 787 does a great job......767 not so much.

- quick level offs. Most APs have logic built in that “smooths the ride”. So it will pitch down and reduce throttles slowly. If you are within 1000’ of an alt climbing at 3000 FPM and ATC gives you a traffic advisory with a quick level off if you leave the AP on you will overshoot your altitude by several hundred feet.

These are just a few examples....mostly I don’t want to type anymore.... :D . What do you notice about the examples given? They are all approach and departure situations. That is why a lot of pilots hand fly below 10,000 and yes sometimes a pilot can fly better than the AP.....ego has nothing to do with it.


Thank for the thoughtful and detailed response. I appreciate it.
 
Moosefire
Posts: 135
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:47 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:39 am

bennett123 wrote:
How did this guy keep getting jobs?.


Just about every airline he was hired at (except maybe Wisconsin) is generally at the bottom rungs among their peers. They need to fill the seats to fulfill their contracted flying obligations, so folks like this get hired.

What’s scary is knowing theirs others like him out there.
MD-11F/C-17A Pilot
 
kalvado
Posts: 2711
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:15 am

Whenever any system - in this case prior training and employment data verification - is suggested, one has to look at unintended consequences as well. Is there any guarantee that such records cannot be used for other purposes, e.g. long turm revenge for conflicts or intimidating into worse employment conditions?
For example, someone puts some nasty comments on file regarding a check (passed, but... ) - and there is no way to remove or counter those comments. Would that give too much personal power to instructor or examiner?
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2367
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:19 am

kalvado wrote:
Whenever any system - in this case prior training and employment data verification - is suggested, one has to look at unintended consequences as well. Is there any guarantee that such records cannot be used for other purposes, e.g. long turm revenge for conflicts or intimidating into worse employment conditions?
For example, upset puts some nasty comments regarding a check (passed, but... ) - and there is no way to remove or counter those comments. Would that give too much personal power to instructor or examiner?


Just make it a multi-person panel that decides. That would make it fair. If you've pissed off 4-5 people at your airline then the problem is most likely you.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2711
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:33 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Whenever any system - in this case prior training and employment data verification - is suggested, one has to look at unintended consequences as well. Is there any guarantee that such records cannot be used for other purposes, e.g. long turm revenge for conflicts or intimidating into worse employment conditions?
For example, upset puts some nasty comments regarding a check (passed, but... ) - and there is no way to remove or counter those comments. Would that give too much personal power to instructor or examiner?


Just make it a multi-person panel that decides. That would make it fair. If you've pissed off 4-5 people at your airline then the problem is most likely you.

Multiperson panel for what? For each check and test? Or if you consider ability to appeal a failure - I specifically mention "passed the check, but (nasty words)" situation. It may make sense to appeal a failure, but why appeal an OK result? And it bites at the next interview...
People do get into conflicts, sometimes pretty understandable. Just apply situation above to union activity or refused sexual favors.... Put a heavy layer of lawsuit icing... And this is why employment feedback is usually limited to personal references, and you can select who would be contacted.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4413
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:45 am

Captains last words were, "what's going on?" I don't get it. Was the Captain in his seat? I ask because it appears the Captain kind of just sat there in silence, even when the FO kept saying his name. It almost seems like the FO was the only one in that cockpit at that point. It took 22 seconds from the whoa to the end of recording, and the FO only spoke once. I don't get it. And it sounds like the FO was asking the Captain to step in.

What a shame. I couldn't imagine how the jumpseater felt in those 20 seconds, and what he saw going on in front of him.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
NW747-400
Posts: 445
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 1999 4:42 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:56 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
NW747-400 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

He was based in Dubai. When you are flying around people with that kind of money you are probably going to try and make their flight as comfortable as possible. On a windy day you can definitely tell when the autopilot is kicked off.

While manual flying skills were likely an issue for this pilot, if he had taken two seconds to assess the situation he would have seen they were in no peril. He should never have been near an airplane. I do agree that basic airmanship skills need to be regularly evaluated. And if you're going into someplace like Cedar Rapid Iowa then by all means hand fly the approach. But when maneuvering through busy airspace like New York or Atlanta then it would be best to utilize all available automation to lessen the workload.


Are you a pilot? I have 10,000 hours of flight time, 3,000 in the aircraft involved in this thread. We handfly into NYC and ATL all the time.

Also, autopilots are typically far more aggressive in gusty winds than an experienced pilot because they tend to over correct.

Please stop arguing with us about this if you don’t actually have any experience.


Yes I have had my PPL and instrument ratings for nearly a decade and recently got my commerical rating. I have no intention of flying for an airline though. But I know plenty of pilots that do fly for airlines. The airline pilots I know are also quite humble. So maybe that is where the difference comes in. I've never heard any of them claim they can fly better than the autopilot. But I'll take your word for it that you can. I tend to believe a combination of automation and good airmanship are ideal. An over-reliance on automation is where trouble comes in. But there are boards out there just for airline pilots. Maybe that would suit you better if you don't like hearing from anyone else. Keep in mind that you're the one who chose to respond to my post. I never rang your bell.


Ok, well I very patiently attempted to explain various situations to you and you kept contradicting me when you haven’t even flown a transport category jet.

I apologize for jumping down your throat, but it’s very irritating when I’m trying to explain how things work to someone that refuses to accept that I actually know what I’m talking about.

Thirty minutes before my last reply, I literally hand flew a 757 from 10,000’ to touchdown in ATL.
 
mzlin
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:32 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:20 am

GA switch hit by mistake by captain, somatogravic illusion of FO caused him to push nose down, as I postulated in post #1500. I took some flak for that post but figured I'd just wait for the report.

Same basic cause as in FlyDubai 981 although that was the captain dialing nose-down trim in that case. That report also came out this month BTW.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14960
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:56 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I had a squadron mate that flunked out of a US legacy in week 2 and we could have predicted it happening—poor CRM and a big head over his background. Recently, an operation I’m well familiar with had a well experienced pilot fail to be recommended for his rating ride, now out of work.


That basically sums up the reasons I don’t like using historical records. As they say on the stock market past performed does not guarantee future returns.

The hiring process which includes the interview, sim
ride, through to their final check after training is what should weed people out or bring them up to standard. You can and do have perfectly capable pilots just not suited to a particular operation, and you have airlines sending pilots out to the line without reaching the desired standard because MBA types do not budget for spare simulator time.

kalvado wrote:
Whenever any system - in this case prior training and employment data verification - is suggested, one has to look at unintended consequences as well.


If an employee asks our company for a referral when seeking out new employment we just provide a letter stating the period they were employed. We provide no details on their career progression or reasons for leaving.

Every pilot has multiple bad days through their career, and the training environment is where these should be identified and rectified. If a pilot is provided training to be competent after failing an item that should be the end of it. It has little relevance on future performance. No pilot comes to work to perform poorly, and if provided the correct training and support will be a better pilot if the fail something and get training. At the end of the day every pilot wants to do a good job and go home to their family.

What I suspect is happening is some carriers don’t do the initial or remedial training and pass people that shouldn’t be passed.

I would be very interested to see the budget this airline has set aside for remedial simulator training.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Whiplash6
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:30 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:10 am

mzlin wrote:
GA switch hit by mistake by captain, somatogravic illusion of FO caused him to push nose down, as I postulated in post #1500. I took some flak for that post but figured I'd just wait for the report.

Same basic cause as in FlyDubai 981 although that was the captain dialing nose-down trim in that case. That report also came out this month BTW.

I doubt the Captain hit the GA switch given that it was 10 seconds after he selected flaps 1 that the click is heard and power was increased to 85% N1. More likely is the FO himself brushed the GA paddle while maneuvering the speed brakes on the other side of the thrust levers.The Captain appears to have been heads down extending the final approach course on the FMS. I’d also like to add that that process was complicated by the FO who forgot to hit Heading Select after given a heading of 270, so the FMS gave them a message of “not on intercept heading”. It took him over a minute after receiving the clearance to begin his turn. Total meltdown.
 
efisher
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:19 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:24 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Maybe, but there might be privacy issues there. Rumor from what appears to be an Atlas insider is that he was also fired from Colgan and there’s a trail of employment discrimination suits over his terminations. And, to add icing, his family has sued Amazon and Atlas citing the fact he shouldn’t have been hired. The court cases, outside of the NTSB investigation, will be interesting.


I've worked with GTI and had the opportunity to work along side some of their employee's... I distinctly recall one LM who attempted to use the pallet of 1.2 Explosives as a battering ram to guide another pallet out the side door....
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 23924
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:44 pm

mysfit wrote:
I thought somewhere on this thread it was stated he was hired by HR over objections....to avoid legal action.

Interesting to read that, along with the family of the same person suing Atlas and Amazon for deciding to hire him!

Moosefire wrote:
Just about every airline he was hired at (except maybe Wisconsin) is generally at the bottom rungs among their peers. They need to fill the seats to fulfill their contracted flying obligations, so folks like this get hired.

What’s scary is knowing theirs others like him out there.

Reminds me of the old joke:

Q: What do they call the person who graduates with the worst grades in medical school?
A: Doctor.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:08 pm

res 'history' versus test flights, and this is a question.

It appears there are no regulatory depositories for pilots history. i.e., training, results of tests, flight simulator training, discipline and medical issues. Companies are reluctant to pass on this sort of information. FAA does not have it, or at least does not share it.

So new regional airline/cargo carrier has to hire a pilot blind. Wouldn't they have a good paper pusher who could ask for said pilot's history and get some sort of idea about their competence? This would not be the same person who does test flights and observes the pilot before hiring.

Would this hypothetical new company have access to a flight simulator, so they could 'pile on' the work load of prospective pilots to see how they perform when everything might be going wrong?
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1807
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:39 pm

F9Animal wrote:
Captains last words were, "what's going on?" I don't get it. Was the Captain in his seat? I ask because it appears the Captain kind of just sat there in silence, even when the FO kept saying his name. It almost seems like the FO was the only one in that cockpit at that point. It took 22 seconds from the whoa to the end of recording, and the FO only spoke once. I don't get it. And it sounds like the FO was asking the Captain to step in.

What a shame. I couldn't imagine how the jumpseater felt in those 20 seconds, and what he saw going on in front of him.

True. While the FO clearly bears most of the blame, the captains actions are questionable as well. He may have been PNF but he didn't notice the engines spooling up without a "go around" call. He didn't react to the FO at all, despite his outcries in an "elevated voice" (per the report). No comment on the FO's call "we're stalling". He didn't disable the autopilot even though the plane was doing weird stuff that contradicted his inputs. The elevators split at around 12:38:45, within seconds of the accidental GA push, but neither pilot commented on odd elevator behaviour.
Meanwhile, the jumpseater who could've seen the entire scene unfold was completely passive (of course he wasn't a part of the crew but still ...).

A perfect example of how NOT to do CRM.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1807
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:59 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
res 'history' versus test flights, and this is a question.

It appears there are no regulatory depositories for pilots history. i.e., training, results of tests, flight simulator training, discipline and medical issues. Companies are reluctant to pass on this sort of information. FAA does not have it, or at least does not share it.

So new regional airline/cargo carrier has to hire a pilot blind. Wouldn't they have a good paper pusher who could ask for said pilot's history and get some sort of idea about their competence? This would not be the same person who does test flights and observes the pilot before hiring.

Would this hypothetical new company have access to a flight simulator, so they could 'pile on' the work load of prospective pilots to see how they perform when everything might be going wrong?

You don't know the people who assessed the pilot previously, you don't know the environment the test was done in and you don't know if the pilot changed in the meantime. A bad review could ruin their career. You want the pilot to focus on their skills and their flying; if they make mistakes they get additional training.
Not to mention that such reports could make the future employer a target for anti-discrimination lawsuits. You can argue that your own test is unbiased but the supervisor at the previous employer may have been a discriminating a**hole. Was he? Maybe not, but difficult to prove.
The only safe way would be regular FAA-supervised and -registered standard checkrides (or do those exist already?). Then the blame would shift from the pilot to the company (who'd need to falsify records) or the FAA (who'd have given their OK to an unsafe pilot).

Looking at the specific case here, the crew had the proper licenses and were not incapacitated. They were legally allowed to fly and none of them had suicidal intentions. The FO, arguably, had problems dealing with stressful, abnormal situations; this was apparently also noted in previous checkrides. Many posters here say that this FO should never have flown a 767 but yet he did without breaking any laws. Given that the FO seemed incapable of realising his own shortcomings, the instructors and supervisors that let him get that far bear as much responsibility for his own death as he himself.
 
HPRamper
Posts: 5017
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:00 pm

mxaxai wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
Captains last words were, "what's going on?" I don't get it. Was the Captain in his seat? I ask because it appears the Captain kind of just sat there in silence, even when the FO kept saying his name. It almost seems like the FO was the only one in that cockpit at that point. It took 22 seconds from the whoa to the end of recording, and the FO only spoke once. I don't get it. And it sounds like the FO was asking the Captain to step in.

What a shame. I couldn't imagine how the jumpseater felt in those 20 seconds, and what he saw going on in front of him.

True. While the FO clearly bears most of the blame, the captains actions are questionable as well. He may have been PNF but he didn't notice the engines spooling up without a "go around" call. He didn't react to the FO at all, despite his outcries in an "elevated voice" (per the report). No comment on the FO's call "we're stalling". He didn't disable the autopilot even though the plane was doing weird stuff that contradicted his inputs. The elevators split at around 12:38:45, within seconds of the accidental GA push, but neither pilot commented on odd elevator behaviour.
Meanwhile, the jumpseater who could've seen the entire scene unfold was completely passive (of course he wasn't a part of the crew but still ...).

A perfect example of how NOT to do CRM.

To be fair, it's pretty darn possible the jumpseater was asleep in his seat until he was awakened by the FO's "elevated" voice. Everything happened at that point so quickly that really what else would he have been able to do other than what he did....yell at the FO to pull up? Yes, some seconds went by there, but I feel it would be a reasonable assumption on the jumpseater's part that the flight crew was competent, and his one exclamation was when he realized that competency did not exist.

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