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ual763
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:12 pm

What I don’t understand, is how one puts an aircraft into a 45 degree nose down angle by accident? Especially when the aircraft isn’t actually stalling with full throttle..... If it actually was stalling, sure, the break itself, combined with positive forward pressure could do that. But, they were a good margin above the stall speed, the throttles were advancing to full G/A thrust. In that situation, the nose doesn’t just drop down to that angle easily. It would require considerable and prolonged downward force by the FO. To me, that illustrates a complete lack of quality stall training. This is something that is usually practiced on the very first flight lesson one ever has. Absolutely mind-boggling to me.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:21 pm

Training can only go so far, as a former DO asked me about a weak pilot, “what do you tell a guy flying planes that he should be selling ladies shoes?” This guy eventually passed all the tests except the real life one.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:26 pm

ual763 wrote:
What I don’t understand, is how one puts an aircraft into a 45 degree nose down angle by accident? Especially when the aircraft isn’t actually stalling with full throttle..... If it actually was stalling, sure, the break itself, combined with positive forward pressure could do that. But, they were a good margin above the stall speed, the throttles were advancing to full G/A thrust. In that situation, the nose doesn’t just drop down to that angle easily. It would require considerable and prolonged downward force by the FO. To me, that illustrates a complete lack of quality stall training. This is something that is usually practiced on the very first flight lesson one ever has. Absolutely mind-boggling to me.


May I ask a dumb question? Why did he think he was stalling? Pitch up caused by dramatically increased thrust?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:26 pm

ual763 wrote:
What I don’t understand, is how one puts an aircraft into a 45 degree nose down angle by accident? Especially when the aircraft isn’t actually stalling with full throttle..... If it actually was stalling, sure, the break itself, combined with positive forward pressure could do that. But, they were a good margin above the stall speed, the throttles were advancing to full G/A thrust. In that situation, the nose doesn’t just drop down to that angle easily. It would require considerable and prolonged downward force by the FO. To me, that illustrates a complete lack of quality stall training. This is something that is usually practiced on the very first flight lesson one ever has. Absolutely mind-boggling to me.


How? By panicked full force on the yoke. The plane turned about 50⁰ in the vertical in, what, 10 seconds. That’s impressive, not in a good way. It’s also why I don’t think saying, “my airplane” would have been enough to get him to release the yoke.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:30 pm

With today's automation, 95% of the pilots time is just watching the plane fly, 4% is real flying, and 1% is critical flying where the AP has tripped out and a serious issue needs to be addressed - be it a fault or a bird strike.

Pilots need to be proficient for the 4 & 1 scenarios, that takes a reasonable amount of manual flying, take offs and landings test / train skills better than cruise where everything is steady state. There needs to be regular training, even just Laptop based 15 min 'tests' on how to solve a specific issue that gain proficiency on solving a problem. That also provides some feedback to the company who is good and who is a problem.

In our litigious world (with the US the worst this way) it is quite difficult to weed out the poor performers. In my state of Washington for Doctors the state turned over nearly all of the review & discipline to a 'program'. In trade for staying anon and avoiding a licensing action, the 'subject' agrees to follow the program. All the drug, behavior, illness, alcohol, etc is covered by them. It works here because it is a very tough program. What is good is that it is statewide, if someone changes employ it doesn't matter. If one state revokes a license, all other states the doctor has licenses in will be reviewing. This might be a good approach for pilots.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:43 pm

A pilot should be judged on past behavior or performance when applying for a job. There should be no hiding of your records, it is in everyone's best interest.

If you have 1 failed checkride but otherwise solid history of performance, I don't see any reason for that candidate to have a problem getting hired anywhere. As mentioned, everyone has a bad day. This guy failed multiple checkrides at every company - he shouldn't have even gotten an interview. He was hired because he HID parts of his previous record. This should not be allowed to happen. There needs to be centralized record keeping for pilot records. Period.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:52 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
A pilot should be judged on past behavior or performance when applying for a job. There should be no hiding of your records, it is in everyone's best interest.

If you have 1 failed checkride but otherwise solid history of performance, I don't see any reason for that candidate to have a problem getting hired anywhere. As mentioned, everyone has a bad day. This guy failed multiple checkrides at every company - he shouldn't have even gotten an interview. He was hired because he HID parts of his previous record. This should not be allowed to happen. There needs to be centralized record keeping for pilot records. Period.



There is...

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/pilot_records_database/
 
jetmatt777
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:56 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
A pilot should be judged on past behavior or performance when applying for a job. There should be no hiding of your records, it is in everyone's best interest.

If you have 1 failed checkride but otherwise solid history of performance, I don't see any reason for that candidate to have a problem getting hired anywhere. As mentioned, everyone has a bad day. This guy failed multiple checkrides at every company - he shouldn't have even gotten an interview. He was hired because he HID parts of his previous record. This should not be allowed to happen. There needs to be centralized record keeping for pilot records. Period.



There is...

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/pilot_records_database/


But it says this:

"Previous aviation employers (if entered by the airman into the PRD)"

It seems very voluntary.
 
MrBretz
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:59 pm

CriticalPoint reminds me of a Delta captain I once sat next to on a flight. She said she almost always hand flies up to 15000’ or so and does the same thing on landing. She added that Delta would prefer she turn on the AP as soon as the plane left the ground but she didn’t because she wanted to keep her skills.
 
ual763
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:00 pm

Wouldn’t a federal background check show places of prior employment, regardless of whether an applicant listed them in their 10-year work history?
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:00 pm

The FAA has been working only for the last decade, give them time. NextGen upgrade to ATC is what, 20 years old and still waiting fielding.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:01 pm

ual763 wrote:
Wouldn’t a federal background check show places of prior employment, regardless of whether an applicant listed them in their 10-year work history?


Only shows criminal history, no-fly list, no employment history.
 
mysfit
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:07 pm

Went back and re-read the threads here and on PPRUNE.

WSJ had the events correctly in mid March.

Posters were repeatedly incredulous that very experienced pilots could possibly make the errors alledged.

Experience was based on hours flown. Maybe that number needs to be broken down in terms of flown under automation and hand flown to get a more complete picture of experience.
 
ual763
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:09 pm

MrBretz wrote:
CriticalPoint reminds me of a Delta captain I once sat next to on a flight. She said she almost always hand flies up to 15000’ or so and does the same thing on landing. She added that Delta would prefer she turn on the AP as soon as the plane left the ground but she didn’t because she wanted to keep her skills.


A number of years ago, there were quite a few airlines who were very adamant on using automation whenever able, in the name of “passenger comfort”. They proclaimed it was the wave of the future, and the “safe” choice. In fact, I think I have lying around one of the very first issues of the United “Safetyliner” magazine which encouraged pilots not to handfly (I think this was in 1990). Many of the European carriers still mandate AP on from 400’ at TO all the way to minimums during landing. Luckily, many US airlines (and some of the major EU carriers) are now (within the last 5 years) emphasizing hand-flying skills whenever prudent to do so. I can’t comment on Delta’s specific policies, but I have a friend who flies the Maddog for Delta and when given a short enough leg (CHA-ATL), he will hand fly the entire flight, cruise and all.
Last edited by ual763 on Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ual763
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:10 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
ual763 wrote:
Wouldn’t a federal background check show places of prior employment, regardless of whether an applicant listed them in their 10-year work history?


Only shows criminal history, no-fly list, no employment history.


Ahh gotcha. I must be thinking of a security clearance.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
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pilotkev1
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:19 pm

If the ridiculously excessive 1500hr rule weren't in place, Atlas would have a flood of competent pilots ready to fly for them at a moments notice.

The only reason this FO was allowed to fly this airplane was due to the desperation airlines face in pilot staffing, resulting from the 1500hr ATP requirement.

Those without the means/resources to accumulate 1500hrs, can, and typically do in fact end up finding a job in aviation just as profitable/enjoyable.
 
glideslope900
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:59 pm

pilotkev1 wrote:
If the ridiculously excessive 1500hr rule weren't in place, Atlas would have a flood of competent pilots ready to fly for them at a moments notice.

The only reason this FO was allowed to fly this airplane was due to the desperation airlines face in pilot staffing, resulting from the 1500hr ATP requirement.

Those without the means/resources to accumulate 1500hrs, can, and typically do in fact end up finding a job in aviation just as profitable/enjoyable.



If the 1500 hour rule was not in place, it is arguable he would have never got the jobs at those regionals he flunked out of. Therefore, there will be less of a failure history.

Perhaps he would have gotten hired with just some multi prop time. You never know. Diversity hiring can go a long way.
 
AABusDrvr
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:18 pm

pilotkev1 wrote:
If the ridiculously excessive 1500hr rule weren't in place, Atlas would have a flood of competent pilots ready to fly for them at a moments notice.

The only reason this FO was allowed to fly this airplane was due to the desperation airlines face in pilot staffing, resulting from the 1500hr ATP requirement.

Those without the means/resources to accumulate 1500hrs, can, and typically do in fact end up finding a job in aviation just as profitable/enjoyable.



It's not ridiculous to have some minimum requirements for pilots flying transport airplanes for hire. The ATP certificate is a pretty good baseline IMHO. And the staffing issues aren't due to the 1500 hour rule. It's because people aren't interested in the job, for the current pay and quality of life.
 
NW747-400
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:27 pm

pilotkev1 wrote:
If the ridiculously excessive 1500hr rule weren't in place, Atlas would have a flood of competent pilots ready to fly for them at a moments notice.

The only reason this FO was allowed to fly this airplane was due to the desperation airlines face in pilot staffing, resulting from the 1500hr ATP requirement.

Those without the means/resources to accumulate 1500hrs, can, and typically do in fact end up finding a job in aviation just as profitable/enjoyable.


I would argue that the 1500 hour rule doesn’t have any affect on pilot recruiting. It would be like opening a dam to a lake that is only fed by a small stream.

If the FAA lifted the 1500 hour rule today, it would allow low time pilots to get hired at a regional immediately. That will solve staffing issues for a few months for only the most attractive regionals. All you’ve down now is emptied the training pipeline for immediate but temporary staffing relief, and now the regionals will be waiting once again for the trickle of pilots to finish their ratings and enter the flight deck with 250 hours instead of 1500.

None of that determines if any of the experienced regional pilots will make the decision to work at Atlas anyway. Atlas has to compete for pilots with AA/DL/FX/UA/WN/5X plus AS/B6/F9/G4/NK all on massive wiring waves.

That’s not to say I am in complete agreement with the 1500 hour (1000 for many) rule. I think 750 is a reasonable experience level to go to a regional. I don’t think putting 250 hour pilots back in the control seat of an E175 is a good idea though, and I say that as someone who began a career doing exactly that.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:34 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
May I ask a dumb question? Why did he think he was stalling? Pitch up caused by dramatically increased thrust?


Obviously, we don't know what he was thinking given his apparently-minimal ability to respond correctly to information inputs in an unusual situation.

However, remember that the 767 autothrottles, if armed, have a "wake up" mode that will provide stall protection even when they are not engaged (except in certain MCP modes). If airspeed deteriorates to near the stick shaker speed, the autothrottles engage and advance the thrust levers to achieve the greater of minimum maneuvering speed or the speed set in the MCP window.

Accordingly, one possible interpretation of a sudden and unexpected advance of the autothrottles is that the aircraft is approaching a stall. That may explain why he asked "What's my airspeed?"

The correct response to the aircraft telling you that it is approaching a stall by advancing the autothrottles, however, is not what this guy did, of course.

Moreover, he had no other clear indications of an impending stall, and the rapidly-advancing airspeed should have assuaged his concerns. Add somatogravic illusion to his mistaken understanding as to why the throttles advanced, and it appears that he vapor-locked. (If I'm being very-generous, I might theorize that he interpreted the chop as stall buffet, but frankly it's also a fair theory that he began immediately to be confused about the information that he was taking in.)

(After Asiana, there was much talk about the "FLCH Trap", because the Asiana guys had the MCP configured in a way that autothrottle stall protection was inhibited [the FLCH Trap], something that apparently wasn't at the top of their minds, or they just didn't know.)
 
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pilotkev1
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:50 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:
pilotkev1 wrote:
If the ridiculously excessive 1500hr rule weren't in place, Atlas would have a flood of competent pilots ready to fly for them at a moments notice.

The only reason this FO was allowed to fly this airplane was due to the desperation airlines face in pilot staffing, resulting from the 1500hr ATP requirement.

Those without the means/resources to accumulate 1500hrs, can, and typically do in fact end up finding a job in aviation just as profitable/enjoyable.



It's not ridiculous to have some minimum requirements for pilots flying transport airplanes for hire. The ATP certificate is a pretty good baseline IMHO. And the staffing issues aren't due to the 1500 hour rule. It's because people aren't interested in the job, for the current pay and quality of life.


I never said it's ridiculous to have some minimum requirements for ATP, I said it's ridiculous that it's 1500hrs.

I personally know about a dozen individuals, including myself (most of which are ATC or Dispatchers) who would throw themselves into the pilot profession if the minimum hour requirement was 500, perhaps 750. Nearly all of them would be threefold more competent than this FO. Just because someone has the means to grind up to 1500hrs, doesn't make them any more competent/skillful than a pilot with 250-500hrs.
 
NW747-400
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:02 pm

pilotkev1 wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
pilotkev1 wrote:
If the ridiculously excessive 1500hr rule weren't in place, Atlas would have a flood of competent pilots ready to fly for them at a moments notice.

The only reason this FO was allowed to fly this airplane was due to the desperation airlines face in pilot staffing, resulting from the 1500hr ATP requirement.

Those without the means/resources to accumulate 1500hrs, can, and typically do in fact end up finding a job in aviation just as profitable/enjoyable.



It's not ridiculous to have some minimum requirements for pilots flying transport airplanes for hire. The ATP certificate is a pretty good baseline IMHO. And the staffing issues aren't due to the 1500 hour rule. It's because people aren't interested in the job, for the current pay and quality of life.


I never said it's ridiculous to have some minimum requirements for ATP, I said it's ridiculous that it's 1500hrs.

I personally know about a dozen individuals, including myself (most of which are ATC or Dispatchers) who would throw themselves into the pilot profession if the minimum hour requirement was 500, perhaps 750. Nearly all of them would be threefold more competent than this FO. Just because someone has the means to grind up to 1500hrs, doesn't make them any more competent/skillful than a pilot with 250-500hrs.


You’re correct that less time does not make a pilot less competent, but the point of a minimum flight experience rule is to flesh out the ones that can hack it and the ones that can’t while they are still operating in a lower liability environment. The flight deck of a regional jet is not the place to be doing that. Sadly that didn’t work as planned for this Atlas FO, mostly because he didn’t disclose his training failures. It’s still sound logic, however. I think a reduction to about 750 hours would be appropriate though, with a rATP.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:10 pm

pilotkev1 wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
pilotkev1 wrote:
If the ridiculously excessive 1500hr rule weren't in place, Atlas would have a flood of competent pilots ready to fly for them at a moments notice.

The only reason this FO was allowed to fly this airplane was due to the desperation airlines face in pilot staffing, resulting from the 1500hr ATP requirement.

Those without the means/resources to accumulate 1500hrs, can, and typically do in fact end up finding a job in aviation just as profitable/enjoyable.



It's not ridiculous to have some minimum requirements for pilots flying transport airplanes for hire. The ATP certificate is a pretty good baseline IMHO. And the staffing issues aren't due to the 1500 hour rule. It's because people aren't interested in the job, for the current pay and quality of life.


I never said it's ridiculous to have some minimum requirements for ATP, I said it's ridiculous that it's 1500hrs.

I personally know about a dozen individuals, including myself (most of which are ATC or Dispatchers) who would throw themselves into the pilot profession if the minimum hour requirement was 500, perhaps 750. Nearly all of them would be threefold more competent than this FO. Just because someone has the means to grind up to 1500hrs, doesn't make them any more competent/skillful than a pilot with 250-500hrs.


No they wouldn't. People like yourself who come in nothing but light piston time are all dangerous, until they get some experience. What needs to be done is a requirement to fly 135/91 turbine prior to flying 121 time. The worst FO's I fly with day in/day out are the nothing but 172 time guys who think they're god's gift to aviation. Some come in with a good attitude and try to learn, and do well and move on. The ones with an attitude are quite frankly dangerous, and there's often times that the captain's would be better off alone than with these low time, cocky, no experience FO's.

Sorry you can't get your dream job, the rest of us figured out a way to do it. Go get the time and get the job, or sit and complain the choice is yours.
From my cold, dead hands
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:18 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
May I ask a dumb question? Why did he think he was stalling? Pitch up caused by dramatically increased thrust?


Obviously, we don't know what he was thinking given his apparently-minimal ability to respond correctly to information inputs in an unusual situation.

However, remember that the 767 autothrottles, if armed, have a "wake up" mode that will provide stall protection even when they are not engaged (except in certain MCP modes). If airspeed deteriorates to near the stick shaker speed, the autothrottles engage and advance the thrust levers to achieve the greater of minimum maneuvering speed or the speed set in the MCP window.

Accordingly, one possible interpretation of a sudden and unexpected advance of the autothrottles is that the aircraft is approaching a stall. That may explain why he asked "What's my airspeed?"

The correct response to the aircraft telling you that it is approaching a stall by advancing the autothrottles, however, is not what this guy did, of course.

Moreover, he had no other clear indications of an impending stall, and the rapidly-advancing airspeed should have assuaged his concerns. Add somatogravic illusion to his mistaken understanding as to why the throttles advanced, and it appears that he vapor-locked. (If I'm being very-generous, I might theorize that he interpreted the chop as stall buffet, but frankly it's also a fair theory that he began immediately to be confused about the information that he was taking in.)

(After Asiana, there was much talk about the "FLCH Trap", because the Asiana guys had the MCP configured in a way that autothrottle stall protection was inhibited [the FLCH Trap], something that apparently wasn't at the top of their minds, or they just didn't know.)


Thanks for your detailed response and all of your substantive contributions to this thread (and the others where you are a resource). But coming from the place I'm in - zero time in anything nearly as complex as a 767 - I'm still a bit befuddled. Taking a look at your instruments as a first step when you are flying in IMC and feel like the airplane is doing something you do not expect is like Day 1 of instrument training stuff. And any number of instruments in front of this gentleman's face would have told him that he was nowhere near a stall. Maybe I'm trying to explain the inexplicable . . .
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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pilotkev1
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:30 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
pilotkev1 wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:


It's not ridiculous to have some minimum requirements for pilots flying transport airplanes for hire. The ATP certificate is a pretty good baseline IMHO. And the staffing issues aren't due to the 1500 hour rule. It's because people aren't interested in the job, for the current pay and quality of life.


I never said it's ridiculous to have some minimum requirements for ATP, I said it's ridiculous that it's 1500hrs.

I personally know about a dozen individuals, including myself (most of which are ATC or Dispatchers) who would throw themselves into the pilot profession if the minimum hour requirement was 500, perhaps 750. Nearly all of them would be threefold more competent than this FO. Just because someone has the means to grind up to 1500hrs, doesn't make them any more competent/skillful than a pilot with 250-500hrs.


No they wouldn't. People like yourself who come in nothing but light piston time are all dangerous, until they get some experience. What needs to be done is a requirement to fly 135/91 turbine prior to flying 121 time. The worst FO's I fly with day in/day out are the nothing but 172 time guys who think they're god's gift to aviation. Some come in with a good attitude and try to learn, and do well and move on. The ones with an attitude are quite frankly dangerous, and there's often times that the captain's would be better off alone than with these low time, cocky, no experience FO's.

Sorry you can't get your dream job, the rest of us figured out a way to do it. Go get the time and get the job, or sit and complain the choice is yours.


I'm not saying they'd all be the best, but they certainly wouldn't push the airplane into the ground from 6000ft just because they're in IMC.

It sounds like you've had some pretty bad experiences, which leads me to believe all the dangerous folks your referring to are not only 172/piston pilots, but 172/piston pilots who've been told their whole lives that as soon as they hit 1500hrs they're god's gift to aviation and can fly any airplane they want with relative ease.

I was simply trying to make a point that there are plenty of good pilots, humble pilots with a hunger and appreciation for learning from their peers, who would like an opportunity to do it as a profession, but don't have the means/resources to reach 1500hrs without seriously affecting their livelihood, thus contributing significantly to the pilot shortage.

I agree, if it's your dream job, you'll find a way. Most people found a different career they're perfectly happy with. Would they be happier as a pilot? Certainly, but that's nothing to give up a comfortable life for.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:55 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
Thanks for your detailed response and all of your substantive contributions to this thread (and the others where you are a resource). But coming from the place I'm in - zero time in anything nearly as complex as a 767 - I'm still a bit befuddled. Taking a look at your instruments as a first step when you are flying in IMC and feel like the airplane is doing something you do not expect is like Day 1 of instrument training stuff. And any number of instruments in front of this gentleman's face would have told him that he was nowhere near a stall. Maybe I'm trying to explain the inexplicable . . .


You are 1000-percent correct in all respects, including your final sentence.

One possible contributing factor: automation complacency. He has his mind on what he is going to have to do to effectuate the landing. He is letting the aircraft figure out what it's supposed to do to accomplish the basic requirements of flight while in the clouds. At some level, he assumes that it's always going to do that when automation is active. He and the captain are monitoring, and commenting on how the automation is doing in terms of achieving the various height and speed metrics at the waypoints that they have programmed. It's doing okay, but not perfectly, and they're talking about that. So they are in fact looking at the instruments, including speed. Of course, speed can bleed off quickly and one can't assume, but perhaps while he was actually talking about speed, he wasn't thinking about it in terms of adequacy for flight. He's mentally in, "Is the automation doing what I told it to?" mode, not, "What parameters are necessary for flight?" mode. The latter should always be in one's mind, of course, but that's what automation complacency does to people. Given this guy's proven difficulties in responding to new and sudden information inputs with quick and correct analysis of the meaning and significance of those inputs, it certainly follows that shifting gears immediately into completely-hand-flying the plane ("Click-click", "Click-click", in Vandenberg's terms) would be something he might have difficulty doing and/or be disinclined to do.

That instructor who described the simulator incident where the guy turned around in his seat with his oxygen mask on and just stared at him while the simulator was "still angry", waiting for the guy to step in and fix it, must have that moment burned into his brain by reading the preliminary report. Because that's pretty much what the guy did here.

I am convinced that this guy went to his death believing that what was happening was not his fault. In the words of one instructor, that "he did not understand how unsafe he was". It was up to others to tell the guy, "No", regardless of the personal consequences to them, and many instead kept their heads down and crossed their fingers. There's plenty of blame to go around. I don't, however, believe that that issue is one that it is appropriate for his relatives to be raising in a lawsuit (which is what they are doing). Nobody should be legally-liable for not protecting him from himself. The jumpseater's family, hell yeah. The FO's, no. It's gross.

(Were this a situation where airlines kept telling him, "You're great! You're fantastic! Keep flying bigger and bigger planes and you'll be a captain soon for sure!" despite his own expressed misgivings, my view might be different. Here, however, it appears that he was so convinced of his own excellence, and that others were holding him back because of exogenous issues, not his demonstrated performance, that he basically forced his way onto flight decks, including by misrepresenting his past. Yes, people's unwillingness to put their foot down -- their unwillingness to be slimed once they knew of his history -- wrongly affected their decision-making, but as to the consequences to himself of his actions here -- those are on him.)
 
cdark
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:21 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
ual763 wrote:
What I don’t understand, is how one puts an aircraft into a 45 degree nose down angle by accident? Especially when the aircraft isn’t actually stalling with full throttle..... If it actually was stalling, sure, the break itself, combined with positive forward pressure could do that. But, they were a good margin above the stall speed, the throttles were advancing to full G/A thrust. In that situation, the nose doesn’t just drop down to that angle easily. It would require considerable and prolonged downward force by the FO. To me, that illustrates a complete lack of quality stall training. This is something that is usually practiced on the very first flight lesson one ever has. Absolutely mind-boggling to me.


May I ask a dumb question? Why did he think he was stalling? Pitch up caused by dramatically increased thrust?


It’s not a dumb question because it boggles the mind. My answer is simply: he was a terrible pilot. I really don’t like to speak ill of the dead and by no means am I saying I’m a perfect pilot, because I’m not, but he failed out of so many training programs and airlines that it is almost seems unreal. He was incredibly persistent, but lacked incredible self-awareness. If he looked at his situation objectively, he would realize that being a professional pilot wasn’t the best pick for him.
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:38 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
With today's automation, 95% of the pilots time is just watching the plane fly, 4% is real flying, and 1% is critical flying where the AP has tripped out and a serious issue needs to be addressed - be it a fault or a bird strike.

Pilots need to be proficient for the 4 & 1 scenarios, that takes a reasonable amount of manual flying, take offs and landings test / train skills better than cruise where everything is steady state. There needs to be regular training, even just Laptop based 15 min 'tests' on how to solve a specific issue that gain proficiency on solving a problem. That also provides some feedback to the company who is good and who is a problem.

In our litigious world (with the US the worst this way) it is quite difficult to weed out the poor performers. In my state of Washington for Doctors the state turned over nearly all of the review & discipline to a 'program'. In trade for staying anon and avoiding a licensing action, the 'subject' agrees to follow the program. All the drug, behavior, illness, alcohol, etc is covered by them. It works here because it is a very tough program. What is good is that it is statewide, if someone changes employ it doesn't matter. If one state revokes a license, all other states the doctor has licenses in will be reviewing. This might be a good approach for pilots.


The FO supposedly had a long history of suing employers based on being fired because of his race and lying on PRIA checks. Pilots have yearly checks in the sim to prove that they are competent for the job done by their employer and the FO had failed them multiple times.

The real problem here is that Atlas was employing someone/passing him through training that shouldn't have been near an FSX sim much rather a transportation category jet. I would be very nervous if I was anywhere near the Atlas HR and training department simply because this entire event could have been avoided if Atlas paid their pilots a fair wage and Atlas HR actually did their job.

Edit Imagine a hospital that tried to hire as many undesirable doctors as possible because they knew that they could never leave and couldn't ask for more money because of their inability to be hired elsewhere. That philosophy is pretty much what Atlas corporate has been trying to foster over the past couple of years with it finally culminating in this tragedy. This crash doesn't represent airline pilots today but it does show what happens when a bad HR department and an overly litigious society combine to create a dangerous situation.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:59 am

The simple fact that demand for qualified pilots exceeds the supply means that those airlines at the bottom of the feeding trough are often faced with poor choices. Do we hire this questionable guy or do we leave some planes on the ground? Unfortunately as long as the supply problem exists there will be pilots who have no business being in the cockpit of a commercial plane continuing to slip through the cracks, simply because managers will either deliberately or subconsciously close their eyes to their shortcomings. The Colgan crash was another example. To me it is surprising that there haven’t been more.

As to the 1500 hour requirement, I support it. As a strictly private, single engine pilot with around 1100 hours, I can confidently say that I am a much better pilot than I was when I had 500 hours. And one big advantage: you are giving the Darwin Award contestants that much more time to make their contest entries before attempting them in an airliner, hence thinning the herd. Training can remedy many problems and bad attitudes, but there will likely continue to be those who slip through who either come apart when faced with a crisis or just do not have a good safety attitude. And these will tend to be found at the bottom of the food chain.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:59 pm

Interestingly, the FO once flew at Gulfstream Airlines (his LinkedIn page), pilots who flew there went on to be involved in 4 out of 5 post-9/11 US airline accidents—Pinnacle 3701 high dive from 410 , Comair 5191 KLEX , Colgan 3407 KBUF and Atlas. The outlier is AA587.

GF
 
Whiplash6
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:47 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Interestingly, the FO once flew at Gulfstream Airlines (his LinkedIn page), pilots who flew there went on to be involved in 4 out of 5 post-9/11 US airline accidents—Pinnacle 3701 high dive from 410 , Comair 5191 KLEX , Colgan 3407 KBUF and Atlas. The outlier is AA587.

GF



UPS1354 feels like it was only 6 years ago. UPS6 only feels like 9.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:05 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Interestingly, the FO once flew at Gulfstream Airlines (his LinkedIn page), pilots who flew there went on to be involved in 4 out of 5 post-9/11 US airline accidents—Pinnacle 3701 high dive from 410 , Comair 5191 KLEX , Colgan 3407 KBUF and Atlas. The outlier is AA587.

GF


Boy that’s a bad stat.......
 
wjcandee
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:20 am

Whiplash6 wrote:
UPS1354 feels like it was only 6 years ago. UPS6 only feels like 9.


So well said, my friend.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:21 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Interestingly, the FO once flew at Gulfstream Airlines (his LinkedIn page), pilots who flew there went on to be involved in 4 out of 5 post-9/11 US airline accidents—Pinnacle 3701 high dive from 410 , Comair 5191 KLEX , Colgan 3407 KBUF and Atlas. The outlier is AA587.

GF


Boy that’s a bad stat.......


For more reasons than you realize.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:41 am

Ok, 4 out 7 still ain’t good.
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:09 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Ok, 4 out 7 still ain’t good.
Yeah, the UPS crashes don’t really change your original point. UPS6 wasn’t pilot error - they performed heroically til the very end.

It’s interesting 6 out of 7 were Pilot Error.

Then 4 out of 6 had Gulfstream Airlines as a common factor. That is just absolutely amazing, and of course, not in a good way.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
Flow2706
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:18 am

Obviously the FO had a bad history and shouldn't have been hired, but somatogravic illusion is a very really threat to basically all pilots. If you have never experienced it, you can probably not imagine how strongly it affects you. Early in my airline flying career I had to do an unexpected go around (my very first go around in the real aircraft outside of the simulator) in a very light A319...I had the sensation of pitching up to near vertical even though my PFD showed the pitch at not more than 20°. I was just startled for a moment, I couldn't make any sense of the situation and it took me several seconds to get oriented again, luckily the Autopilot was still engaged and I had a very good Captain next to me. Even though this happened many years ago, it will remain one of the most memorable events in my flying career. It's very hard or impossible to remove this by simulator training, even though experiencing this illusion in reality at least once will probably help to avoid or mitigate its consequences in the future.
Concerning below average pilots, there will always be below average pilots. If there are differences in skill level (which there will always be, we are human after all) it follows logically that you will have below average, average and above average pilots. The training department has to make sure that even the worst pilot in the company is trained to an acceptable standard.
There are always some characters that just shouldn't be in the airline industry. I know a captain who got kicked out of four different airlines within two years for massive lack of basic CRM (some FO who flew with her told me that she introduced herself to him and told him, 'just to get things straight, I am the Captain, so we follow my SOPs, not the companies SOPs') and she is still getting some job somewhere - as long as you have a serious pilot shortage you will always have airlines hiring people with a questionable history (or people who hide part of there history, like the FO in this accident did...)
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:00 pm

Blancolirio’s analysis and explanation of the crash:

https://youtu.be/GR4xhTF-13g
 
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CALTECH
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:03 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Ok, 4 out 7 still ain’t good.


The stories about that outfit here in MCO......

Boarding during a severe thunderrstorm, umbrella got away from the co-pilot. #2 propeller sucked it under the fuselage and into it's blades. Co-pilot and their Ops in Miami wanted us to sign it off for flight with passengers. One of the blades had a cut across the blade with composite fibers showing and sticking out a bit.

Another severe thunderstorm, and a big traffic cone went into a propeller. Wanted the aircraft to be released to fly on.

900 lbs stuck in a tank, couldn't pump it out. Wanted a release to fly down to Miami with passengers.

Refused their demands, their own mechanics came up and did the right things. Many more incidents.

There were some good kids over there flying, they were just trying to build hours up.
You are here.
 
CMHtraveler
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:13 pm

CALTECH wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Ok, 4 out 7 still ain’t good.


The stories about that outfit here in MCO......


The U.S. aviation industry is unquestionably safer a decade after the demise of Gulfstream and their churning out of pay-to-work pilots into the pipeline. Towards the end they were assessed a major fine by the FAA for among other things, falsifying pilot records and substandard maintenance practices.

I guess it shouldn’t come as a surprise given that the company founder and chief pilot was a scab from the EAL strike. Selling out your colleagues doesn’t exactly portend empathy for your fellow humans.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:38 pm

Even pilots with several times 1500 hours flying time make serious mistakes that put people at risk of or caused death and injury while someone with 500 hours might be better than average vs. one with 1500+ hours. Maturity, common sense, psychological makeup, able to follow directions, can think smart and fast must be considered in pilot applicants even if 'qualified' on paper.

I also wonder if in this crash there was a equally flawed and inexperienced co-pilot and poor CRM. To me if proper CRM, then the 2nd pilot could have recognized there was a serious problem developing, taken charge and possibly prevented this crash.
 
Antarius
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:11 am

NTSB public docket released with some details: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... 91-downing

https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/hitl ... 94646BA690

Sounds like a bloody mess in the cockpit
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
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Revelation
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:59 pm

And now NTSB releases its "determination":

​WASHINGTON (July 14, 2020) — The National Transportation Safety Board determined during a public board meeting held Tuesday that Atlas Air flight 3591 crashed in Trinity Bay, Texas, because of the first officer’s inappropriate response to an inadvertent activation of the airplane’s go-around mode, resulting in his spatial disorientation that led him to place the airplane in a steep descent from which the crew did not recover.



And:

As a result of its investigation, the NTSB issued six new safety recommendations to the Federal Aviation Administration and reiterated six previously issued safety recommendations to the FAA, four of which the NTSB also classified “Open—Unacceptable Response.” The new safety recommendations issued Tuesday address flight crew performance, industry pilot hiring process deficiencies, and adaptations of automatic ground collision avoidance system technology. Two of the reiterated safety recommendations seek the installation of cockpit imaging recorders on all aircraft operated under Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 121 or 135 required to have cockpit voice and flight data recorders. The four recommendations that were reiterated and classified address maintaining accurate pilot training records.

An abstract of the final report, which includes the findings, probable cause, and all safety recommendations, is available at https://go.usa.gov/xfbcb.

Links to the accident docket and other publicly released information about this investigation are available at https://go.usa.gov/xfTNs.

The final report for the investigation of the accident is expected to post to the NTSB website in the next few weeks.

Ref: https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-release ... 00714.aspx

We can only hope FAA pays some attention to these recommendations.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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gregorous
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:47 pm

In addition to what was mentioned above, NTSB also released a video that summarizes what they found in regards to instrument display and control inputs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKbDj7jd_uw

Tragic.
 
ordbosewr
Posts: 621
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:11 pm

gregorous wrote:
In addition to what was mentioned above, NTSB also released a video that summarizes what they found in regards to instrument display and control inputs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKbDj7jd_uw

Tragic.


That is amazing, how quickly that flight went from being a normal ordinary descent to being in an unrecoverable accident. That is scary.....

very humbling.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:56 pm

This isn't going to be something repeatable. You had a guy flying a transport-category aircraft who simply wasn't up to the task in an abnormal situation, well documentedly-so. Atlas hired him anyway, for a variety of reasons, and then didn't take him off the line when they should have.

The freaking primary flight display would have been reading GA GA GA, and yet he thought it was a stall. This is consistent with everyone who trained him saying that he simply couldn't correctly and sufficiently-quickly process certain unusual inputs, although he understood and could eloquently-articulate what one should do; he just couldn't do it in a pinch. He was also apparently a really good guy personality-wise, which is of course one significant way that folks stay employed (and get promoted) when they shouldn't be.

I haven't read the report or looked at the video yet, but I'm pretty sure it's not going to show or say anything that we weren't talking about within weeks of the accident.
 
n7371f
Posts: 1850
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:40 am

Well hopefully the downturn will allow these more fringe carriers to scrape off the mediocre pilots. The paper trail for the FO of resignations from clearly failing training and then failure to upgrade (yeah, Mesa!) should've been obvious to anyone.
 
IAHWorldflyer
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:43 am

I just wanted to say thank you to the many real, and several armchair pilots who commented on this thread at the beginning. You essentially called it correctly, with the GO switch accidentally activated, and the FO losing spacial awareness and pushing the throttle down to get out of what he thought was a stall. It's tragic that this occurred, but I must say I'm impressed that some of you guys understood enough to speculate correctly what brought this plane down with loss of life.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:34 am

Revelation wrote:
And now NTSB releases its "determination":

​WASHINGTON (July 14, 2020) — The National Transportation Safety Board determined during a public board meeting held Tuesday that Atlas Air flight 3591 crashed in Trinity Bay, Texas, because of the first officer’s inappropriate response to an inadvertent activation of the airplane’s go-around mode, resulting in his spatial disorientation that led him to place the airplane in a steep descent from which the crew did not recover.




Moment of silence for the lost lives.

And, had we seen the above on the day of the accident... it would have been a very hard thing to believe.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2056
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:41 am

n7371f wrote:
Well hopefully the downturn will allow these more fringe carriers to scrape off the mediocre pilots. The paper trail for the FO of resignations from clearly failing training and then failure to upgrade (yeah, Mesa!) should've been obvious to anyone.

The thing is, he was fully qualified, had a valid license and passed his checkrides. We can call him a bad pilot all day, but IMHO the system failed to detect and correct his shortcomings. It's now up to the FAA to create appropriate guidelines.

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