Lrockeagle
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:40 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:38 am

glideslope900 wrote:
I have heard a rumour unofficially that this is what happened-

FO calls for flaps 1, and CA accidentally hits TOGA. TOGA does not engage until flaps hit 1.

Throttles go to GA power and airplane pitches up. FO, startled, pushes down. CA pulls back and there is a tug of war. CA shears the bolts of his control column.

Upon breaking out of IMC, FO sees water, gets re oriented, and tries to pull out of dive.

CVR “very startling, loud noises, unbelievable, thud which could be JS hitting ceiling.”

So you’re telling me the third world pilot did it? The unions will be all over this like the Colgan crash.
Lrockeagle
14 years ago

I got $20 says AA takes their 787's with GE powerplants. Just a hunch. Any takers?
 
deltadart106
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:46 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:38 am

glideslope900 wrote:
I have heard a rumour unofficially that this is what happened-

FO calls for flaps 1, and CA accidentally hits TOGA. TOGA does not engage until flaps hit 1.

Throttles go to GA power and airplane pitches up. FO, startled, pushes down. CA pulls back and there is a tug of war. CA shears the bolts of his control column.

Upon breaking out of IMC, FO sees water, gets re oriented, and tries to pull out of dive.

CVR “very startling, loud noises, unbelievable, thud which could be JS hitting ceiling.”


If the CA's control column bolts sheared off, I'm guessing there would be a noticeable ruckus. Wouldn't the FO notice what was happening and start pulling? Ok, say it happened this way and for some bizarre reason the captain and jumpseater (who would be observing the whole thing) did not say a word to the FO. Why would he wait until they saw water to continue pulling up? Surely as soon as the CA lost control the instruments would have shown them in a dive. And we're to believe nobody thought to reduce power as soon as it was clear it was unintentionally added?

Would a "tug of war" between the pilots even be strong enough to break the bolts of the control column? I'd imagine with the redundancy in commercial airliners, control columns are engineered to take far more force than a single human can provide. In addition, if the pilots were engaged in a "tug of war" wouldn't the plane have continued on a relatively straight or upwards trajectory for at least a few seconds, as their inputs cancelled each other out until the CA lost control, rather than going straight into a dive?

Either way, This story just doesn't add up to me. Stranger things have happened, but there would have to be miscommunication and incompetence beyond even AF447 for it to happen this way, after all this crew had reliable instruments unlike the Air France flight so it would have been immediately obvious they were in a dive.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1147
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:17 am

deltadart106 wrote:
glideslope900 wrote:
I have heard a rumour unofficially that this is what happened-

FO calls for flaps 1, and CA accidentally hits TOGA. TOGA does not engage until flaps hit 1.

Throttles go to GA power and airplane pitches up. FO, startled, pushes down. CA pulls back and there is a tug of war. CA shears the bolts of his control column.

Upon breaking out of IMC, FO sees water, gets re oriented, and tries to pull out of dive.

CVR “very startling, loud noises, unbelievable, thud which could be JS hitting ceiling.”


If the CA's control column bolts sheared off, I'm guessing there would be a noticeable ruckus. Wouldn't the FO notice what was happening and start pulling? Ok, say it happened this way and for some bizarre reason the captain and jumpseater (who would be observing the whole thing) did not say a word to the FO. Why would he wait until they saw water to continue pulling up? Surely as soon as the CA lost control the instruments would have shown them in a dive. And we're to believe nobody thought to reduce power as soon as it was clear it was unintentionally added?

Would a "tug of war" between the pilots even be strong enough to break the bolts of the control column? I'd imagine with the redundancy in commercial airliners, control columns are engineered to take far more force than a single human can provide. In addition, if the pilots were engaged in a "tug of war" wouldn't the plane have continued on a relatively straight or upwards trajectory for at least a few seconds, as their inputs cancelled each other out until the CA lost control, rather than going straight into a dive?

Either way, This story just doesn't add up to me. Stranger things have happened, but there would have to be miscommunication and incompetence beyond even AF447 for it to happen this way, after all this crew had reliable instruments unlike the Air France flight so it would have been immediately obvious they were in a dive.


Thanks. Those are my thoughts as well. Seems like something out of Looney Tunes.
 
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trpmb6
Posts: 2545
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:51 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
deltadart106 wrote:
glideslope900 wrote:
I have heard a rumour unofficially that this is what happened-

FO calls for flaps 1, and CA accidentally hits TOGA. TOGA does not engage until flaps hit 1.

Throttles go to GA power and airplane pitches up. FO, startled, pushes down. CA pulls back and there is a tug of war. CA shears the bolts of his control column.

Upon breaking out of IMC, FO sees water, gets re oriented, and tries to pull out of dive.

CVR “very startling, loud noises, unbelievable, thud which could be JS hitting ceiling.”


If the CA's control column bolts sheared off, I'm guessing there would be a noticeable ruckus. Wouldn't the FO notice what was happening and start pulling? Ok, say it happened this way and for some bizarre reason the captain and jumpseater (who would be observing the whole thing) did not say a word to the FO. Why would he wait until they saw water to continue pulling up? Surely as soon as the CA lost control the instruments would have shown them in a dive. And we're to believe nobody thought to reduce power as soon as it was clear it was unintentionally added?

Would a "tug of war" between the pilots even be strong enough to break the bolts of the control column? I'd imagine with the redundancy in commercial airliners, control columns are engineered to take far more force than a single human can provide. In addition, if the pilots were engaged in a "tug of war" wouldn't the plane have continued on a relatively straight or upwards trajectory for at least a few seconds, as their inputs cancelled each other out until the CA lost control, rather than going straight into a dive?

Either way, This story just doesn't add up to me. Stranger things have happened, but there would have to be miscommunication and incompetence beyond even AF447 for it to happen this way, after all this crew had reliable instruments unlike the Air France flight so it would have been immediately obvious they were in a dive.


Thanks. Those are my thoughts as well. Seems like something out of Looney Tunes.


Torque tubes of the control column installation are usually sized to take dual pilot efforts and pilots fighting each other. Improbable, but not impossible that something failed - no doubt there would be evidence on the cvr.
 
glideslope900
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:09 am

I’m not saying I think that’s what happened. Just relaying the rumour.
 
OldB747Driver
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:40 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:12 am

I typed about a dozen "No way, Jose" unsent responses to glideslope900's rumor, but as I read around the 'net, what should not have even been possible may have indeed happened.

Filling in a few of the gaps, one poster stated that if the TOGA switch is pressed (and it is located on the bottom of the thrust levers where it could be contacted by the Captain reaching over to select Flaps from below the thrust levers) the B767 does, indeed, go to max thrust until achieving 2000 FPM and then reduces to to GA thrust; thus, if the target climb rate is not achieved, max thrust is maintained.

I'm still at a loss to explain how neither crewmember simply pulled back the thrust levers.

The only thing I can say is, if true, Atlas's training program as well as the FAA's oversight has a LOT of explaining to do.

I'm also trying to figure out why the NTSB was unable, or felt it unnecessary to include that Flaps were selected just prior to the TOGA button pushed, both conditions that would be obvious on the FDR readout.

Hell, I'm still hoping that this rumor is just that and that I will owe a posthumous apology to the crew.

[Edit: I would also tend to believe that the "bolts" of the control column were not sheared, but the torque tube connection between the controls was sheared, as designed to do if different inputs are received]
 
MR27122
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 3:00 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:34 am

glideslope900 wrote:
I have heard a rumour unofficially that this is what happened-

FO calls for flaps 1, and CA accidentally hits TOGA. TOGA does not engage until flaps hit 1.

Throttles go to GA power and airplane pitches up. FO, startled, pushes down. CA pulls back and there is a tug of war. CA shears the bolts of his control column.

Upon breaking out of IMC, FO sees water, gets re oriented, and tries to pull out of dive.

CVR “very startling, loud noises, unbelievable, thud which could be JS hitting ceiling.”


Y'all will read the identical rumor splashed all over PPRUNE w/ the CVR is incredibly "startling" peppered throughout.
 
mzlin
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:32 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:42 am

OldB747Driver wrote:
I typed about a dozen "No way, Jose" unsent responses to glideslope900's rumor, but as I read around the 'net, what should not have even been possible may have indeed happened.

Filling in a few of the gaps, one poster stated that if the TOGA switch is pressed (and it is located on the bottom of the thrust levers where it could be contacted by the Captain reaching over to select Flaps from below the thrust levers) the B767 does, indeed, go to max thrust until achieving 2000 FPM and then reduces to to GA thrust; thus, if the target climb rate is not achieved, max thrust is maintained.

I'm still at a loss to explain how neither crewmember simply pulled back the thrust levers.

The only thing I can say is, if true, Atlas's training program as well as the FAA's oversight has a LOT of explaining to do.

I'm also trying to figure out why the NTSB was unable, or felt it unnecessary to include that Flaps were selected just prior to the TOGA button pushed, both conditions that would be obvious on the FDR readout.

Hell, I'm still hoping that this rumor is just that and that I will owe a posthumous apology to the crew.

[Edit: I would also tend to believe that the "bolts" of the control column were not sheared, but the torque tube connection between the controls was sheared, as designed to do if different inputs are received]


I had assumed both pilots felt the somatogravic illusion so they were both pushing down, but given the ability of the yokes to separate based on the antijam breakiut mechanism, indeed only one needs to.

I've thought the linked yokes were a nice feature to allow feedback from one pilot to the other but they do break free with only 30 pounds force difference. You'd think it would be better to have the yokes stably linked to prevent one pilot from losing all input, and if they wanted to get out of a jam they would need to pull on a handle somewhere in addition to pulling the yokes in opposite directions.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7663
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:53 am

Guys, the accident sequence is pretty-clear, and the questions you are asking are sometimes based on a misinterpretation of a couple of things reported. There's a clear path through the information, and it is viable and fits the reported aircraft performance. Everybody flying an aircraft at an airline has by now heard the rumours, usually with one or two details a little off, but what happened is out there. It is gruesome, horrible, and the kind of thing that nobody is going to just take on faith, and nobody is going to want to believe could have happened.

This is why the NTSB is being so circumspect. They're lining up the ducks, crossing the Ts and dotting the Is so their initial factual report will be bulletproof. And of course at that time, all they will do is report out the accident sequence. They will not assign blame or cause. Then, a year later, after a hearing, they will do so, and make recommendations about training, etc. I think it's a fair bet that much of what we are hearing is a more-or-less accurate summary of the sequence. The question that everybody is going to ask is "Why? How?" And that's the more difficult question that the NTSB is going to really have to delve into: Is this a one-off freak occurrence of Head-Up Illusion that is beyond the beyond? Or is there something that could have been screened out or trained out? Is there something wrong with the structure and operation of the airlines?

And that will likely lead to a big debate. I posted something a while back -- when it was clear, before the detailed rumours came out, that this was probably going to be largely pilot-error -- about how this was likely to play out politically and among groups with vested interests, and so far I have sadly been right. And the union is already doubling-down on the ticking-time-bomb story, and we will see a lot more of it in the future, no doubt. (Not saying that it isn't justified, given this.)

Make no mistake: This is a watershed moment and quite possibly a turning point. It isn't getting the publicity that the MAX stuff is, but only because this was an Atlas 767 flight carrying cargo rather than an Atlas 767 flight carrying troops. Very easily could have been.

Nobody is saying anything publicly out of respect for the families. I think we should to a significant extent continue that practice. The fact is that this is gonna fall right on top of the FO, who, it seems from the very-widespread-now rumour, experienced the Head Up Somatogravic illusion in IMC and reacted as badly as one can react and then did not relinquish control. Obviously, the instruments were there to read, and it appears that the Captain would have had zero difficulty handling the plane, as he attempted to respond correctly, but the FO did exactly what happens in this illusion, just to the maximum-possible bad effect: he pushed the thing over into a 4G (holy crap!) dive and, because of the illusion, still felt that he was going up, so continued to force the yoke forward. The captain apparently tried to counteract this (and we have no idea what the conversation was right now, of course), but lost the ability to do so when the shear bolts did what they were designed to do -- and they will do this with less force than most here seem to think. Apparently when the guy came out of the clouds, the visual cues oriented him and he tried to pull up, which explains the shallowing seen on the jail video. This all happened very, very fast because of the low starting altitude. There are already things circulating about his training and prior employment records which may or may not be true, and I think should await the NTSB preliminary report, where they likely will be detailed. There will be a lot of pushback from a lot of quarters on all of this, because...well...because.

Which is why now that curiosity about what happened is being rewarded with as horrifying a tale as is probably-possible, I think much more discussion isn't really too helpful, as we're not going to get much more that we can count on until more information is released.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 1705
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:44 am

wjcandee wrote:
Guys, the accident sequence is pretty-clear,...

Make no mistake: This is a watershed moment and quite possibly a turning point. It isn't getting the publicity that the MAX stuff is, but only because this was an Atlas 767 flight carrying cargo rather than an Atlas 767 flight carrying troops. Very easily could have been.

... I think much more discussion isn't really too helpful, as we're not going to get much more that we can count on until more information is released.


I don't know who you are, or if you are 100% correct, but I'm happy buying what you're selling so I will just add a simple thank you.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
deltadart106
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:46 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:17 pm

If all of this is indeed true, I guess the most baffling part to me is that the FO did not just look at the damn instruments. I mean, they were in IMC so it's not like he's looking out the window. He saw solid brown on the attitude indicator and continued to push down? Of this turns out to be the case then that person should not have been piloting a Cessna 172 let alone a 767.

I realize they only had about 15sec from the initial event to the impact. But the comedy of errors for this to happen is insane. Nobody pulled the throttles back and the captain never took control from the FO (pardon me if I'm incorrect, but isn't there a switch to lock out the other pilot's controls, at least temporarily?)
 
User avatar
DalDC9Bos
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:54 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:36 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Guys, the accident sequence is pretty-clear, and the questions you are asking are sometimes based on a misinterpretation of a couple of things reported. There's a clear path through the information, and it is viable and fits the reported aircraft performance. Everybody flying an aircraft at an airline has by now heard the rumours, usually with one or two details a little off, but what happened is out there. It is gruesome, horrible, and the kind of thing that nobody is going to just take on faith, and nobody is going to want to believe could have happened.

This is why the NTSB is being so circumspect. They're lining up the ducks, crossing the Ts and dotting the Is so their initial factual report will be bulletproof. And of course at that time, all they will do is report out the accident sequence. They will not assign blame or cause. Then, a year later, after a hearing, they will do so, and make recommendations about training, etc. I think it's a fair bet that much of what we are hearing is a more-or-less accurate summary of the sequence. The question that everybody is going to ask is "Why? How?" And that's the more difficult question that the NTSB is going to really have to delve into: Is this a one-off freak occurrence of Head-Up Illusion that is beyond the beyond? Or is there something that could have been screened out or trained out? Is there something wrong with the structure and operation of the airlines?

And that will likely lead to a big debate. I posted something a while back -- when it was clear, before the detailed rumours came out, that this was probably going to be largely pilot-error -- about how this was likely to play out politically and among groups with vested interests, and so far I have sadly been right. And the union is already doubling-down on the ticking-time-bomb story, and we will see a lot more of it in the future, no doubt. (Not saying that it isn't justified, given this.)

Make no mistake: This is a watershed moment and quite possibly a turning point. It isn't getting the publicity that the MAX stuff is, but only because this was an Atlas 767 flight carrying cargo rather than an Atlas 767 flight carrying troops. Very easily could have been.

Nobody is saying anything publicly out of respect for the families. I think we should to a significant extent continue that practice. The fact is that this is gonna fall right on top of the FO, who, it seems from the very-widespread-now rumour, experienced the Head Up Somatogravic illusion in IMC and reacted as badly as one can react and then did not relinquish control. Obviously, the instruments were there to read, and it appears that the Captain would have had zero difficulty handling the plane, as he attempted to respond correctly, but the FO did exactly what happens in this illusion, just to the maximum-possible bad effect: he pushed the thing over into a 4G (holy crap!) dive and, because of the illusion, still felt that he was going up, so continued to force the yoke forward. The captain apparently tried to counteract this (and we have no idea what the conversation was right now, of course), but lost the ability to do so when the shear bolts did what they were designed to do -- and they will do this with less force than most here seem to think. Apparently when the guy came out of the clouds, the visual cues oriented him and he tried to pull up, which explains the shallowing seen on the jail video. This all happened very, very fast because of the low starting altitude. There are already things circulating about his training and prior employment records which may or may not be true, and I think should await the NTSB preliminary report, where they likely will be detailed. There will be a lot of pushback from a lot of quarters on all of this, because...well...because.

Which is why now that curiosity about what happened is being rewarded with as horrifying a tale as is probably-possible, I think much more discussion isn't really too helpful, as we're not going to get much more that we can count on until more information is released.


"I think much more discussion isn't really too helpful"? Really? From the person whose posts are speculative, long winded novels? Look at your posts over the past three pages.

Btw, my post about a potential mental health issue playing a role in this was a simple question. More for experienced pilots on this site. I have followed this thread from first page, but wanted to know given the most recent information whether it further negatived that possibility or whether it left open that possibility.

And yes, my suggestion of being, 'attacked', was exactly because of people like you. Respect the fact that we are all coming from different backgrounds, experiences, and point of views, but that we all share an interest in aviation.
 
OldB747Driver
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:40 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:59 pm

I am still attempting to hold my judgement on this event until the facts are known, but in the theoretical:

The reason I am stunned that this could even possibly happen is twofold: One, that such a basic skill as unusual attitude recovery was not taught or evaluated very well - if at ALL - and two, that regardless of what physiological illusion may be suffered, that a pilot does not remove themselves from the control picture when a Captain attempts control is, well, it calls into question the very basis of the crew concept.

The very basis of the safety of flight is based on the crew concept and the dysfunction that might be exemplified by this case is the bastard child of a ideology that began as a lucrative enterprise being raped by mismanagement and short-sightedness. We, as an industry, have arrived at the destination where, IF the automation (designed to replace experienced pilots) isn't outright driving the airplane into the ground, aka B737 Max, then the automation (also designed to assist pilot inexperience) is performing operations with a similar outcome, creating confusion, thus driving otherwise good aircraft (and their occupants) into the ground.

I'd say unbelievable, but it is anything BUT unbelievable - we're just beginning to reap what we've been given to sow by those who surely knew better. While this accident may go down to "pilot error", surely the way we got here should be assessed as "Ideology Error"... when will THAT ever get changed???
Last edited by OldB747Driver on Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
achmafooma
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:30 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:09 pm

mzlin wrote:
I had assumed both pilots felt the somatogravic illusion so they were both pushing down, but given the ability of the yokes to separate based on the antijam breakiut mechanism, indeed only one needs to.

I've thought the linked yokes were a nice feature to allow feedback from one pilot to the other but they do break free with only 30 pounds force difference. You'd think it would be better to have the yokes stably linked to prevent one pilot from losing all input, and if they wanted to get out of a jam they would need to pull on a handle somewhere in addition to pulling the yokes in opposite directions.

Can somebody explain (in dumb layman terms ;) ) why the yokes are set up this way? I always liked the idea of the linked yokes since they let the CA and FO know what each-other are doing, and I always thought that yoke position (on both sides) would always correspond to the position of the control surfaces....vs. the Airbus approach where different sidestick inputs are (as I understand it) just averaged out and have no direct relationship to the position of the control surfaces.

Hypothetically, if I'm the CA and I'm trying to pull up, and the FO has the yoke pushed hard down, and the breakout occurs, what does the yoke feel like to me? Can I still tell that the FO is commanding the opposite of what I'm commanding, or do they go pretty much fully independent after the breakout? And what does the plane do in response...does it average the inputs and stay in level-ish flight? Is there any way for me to forcibly override the other input if necessary in an emergency?

I'm not saying that's what happened here. I'm just trying to understand how the yokes work and what the purpose is for them working that way. (And if I missed an explanation upthread or elsewhere, I'd appreciate a link so I can check it out.) As an interested outsider, I just always assumed that Boeing yokes were always 'truthfully' positioned, relative to each other and to the control surfaces. So the very existence of a breakout mechanism is new information to me. Of course a fully-linked setup still wouldn't prevent the crew from trying to give opposite inputs, but it would then become a matter of communication (if possible) or physical strength and determination (if necessary) between them to control the plane.

Thanks in advance. This site is so great for learning the nuances of how these things work.
Last edited by achmafooma on Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 2918
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:10 pm

A high percentage of recent crashes have involved lack of orientation as to what the plane is doing, and more particularly what the plane is doing relative to the earth - including this accident and probably the two MAXs. Only recently did Einstein established that gravity and acceleration are the same thing. Unfortunately the earth's gravity field (?) and the planes acceleration field (?) while connected are not the same. Most of a pane's instruments are based on the plan'e acceleration. I understand some instruments on planes address this issue, but they are fairly primitive at this time. Augmented GPS and perhaps specialized radar offer some promise. I suspect before ten years this sort of instrument will become standard. If they achieve appropriately high accuracy their connection to AP will be awesome. Do any military planes have such instruments?
Last edited by frmrCapCadet on Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
glideslope900
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:17 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
A high percentage of recent crashes have involved lack of orientation as to what the plane is doing, and more particularly what the plane is doing relative to the earth - including this accident and probably the two MAXs. Only recently did Einstein established that gravity and acceleration are the same thing. Unfortunately the earth's gravity field (?) and the planes acceleration field (?) while connected are not the same. I understand some instruments on planes address this issue, but they are fairly primitive at this time. Augmented GPS offers some promise. I suspect before ten years this sort of instrument will become standard.


What are you talking about? The planes acceleration toward earth is measured with VS and altitude. Those instruments are more than capable of telling a pilot what is going on.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7663
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:22 pm

OldB747Driver wrote:
I am still attempting to hold my judgement on this event until the facts are known, but in the theoretical:

The reason I am stunned that this could even possibly happen is twofold: One, that such a basic skill as unusual attitude recovery was not taught or evaluated very well - if at ALL - and two, that regardless of what physiological illusion may be suffered, that a pilot does not remove themselves from the control picture when a Captain attempts control is, well, it calls into question the very basis of the crew concept.

The very basis of the safety of flight is based on the crew concept and the dysfunction that might be exemplified by this case is the bastard child of a ideology that began as a lucrative enterprise being raped by mismanagement and short-sightedness. We, as an industry, have arrived at the destination where, IF the automation (designed to replace experienced pilots) isn't outright driving the airplane into the ground, aka B737 Max, then the automation (also designed to assist pilot inexperience) is performing operations with a similar outcome, creating confusion, thus driving otherwise good aircraft (and their occupants) into the ground.

I'd say unbelievable, but it is anything BUT unbelievable - we're just beginning to reap what we've been given to sow by those who surely knew better. While this accident may go down to "pilot error", surely the way we got here should be assessed as "Ideology Error"... when will THAT ever get changed???


Beautiful post, my friend!
 
OldB747Driver
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:40 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:03 pm

achmafooma wrote:
Can somebody explain (in dumb layman terms ;) ) why the yokes are set up this way?


All modern airliners have to have redundancy for ANY critical control (one of the problems with the B737 Max is lack of redundancy to the sensor triggering the pitch down, for instance) and the PRIMARY controls certainly fall in that category. In order to do this, the engineers have to anticipate loss of hydraulics which power the controls, loss or malfunction of PCU's which actually move the controls, jammed controls, and so on. As far as the B767 is concerned (and most aircraft that are not "Fly By Wire") the solution to redundancy is this:

Make the Captain's(CA) control column and yolk control the left side controls, and the First Officer's(FO) control column control the right side controls (its not the exact layout, but helps to explain the concept) and then connect the columns and yolks together beneath the cockpit floor so that they work in harmony 99.99% of the time. If the FO's elevator gets jammed (won't move for whatever reason), it doesn't mean doom because with the proper amount of effort, the connection between the FO's and CA's controls would be severed through control movement and allow the CA to control the left side elevator. No, he would NOT have BOTH sides to work with, but if the other elevator was jammed/not moving, it would be enough to fly the aircraft to a safe landing. Also, severing the control column interconnect would not necessarily sever the aileron harmony.

This configuration will definitely have it's limitation if the controls are severed and operated independently in opposite directions; they would essentially "cancel" each other, so if the FO's controls command both elevators to pitch the airplane nose down and is abrupt, even when the CA's controls are pulled back to correct the pitch over, the best it will do when the interconnect is severed is counter the nose down pitch tendency, not recover. What WOULD have saved the day is that the CA's pitch TRIM, having priority to the trim system, would have counteracted the FO's inputs although at the moment that the FO finally released his controls, the airplanes sudden pitch up could also lead to a control issue.
Last edited by OldB747Driver on Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
OldB747Driver
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:40 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:07 pm

Thanks to you too, wjcandee - I figured you had some inside knowledge on the topic but were reluctant to share it directly, what with all the predicted negative responses.
 
Pbb152
Posts: 634
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2000 2:57 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:12 pm

OldB747Driver wrote:
achmafooma wrote:
Can somebody explain (in dumb layman terms ;) ) why the yokes are set up this way?


All modern airliners have to have redundancy for ANY critical control (one of the problems with the B737 Max is lack of redundancy to the sensor triggering the pitch down, for instance) and the PRIMARY controls certainly fall in that category. In order to do this, the engineers have to anticipate loss of hydraulics which power the controls, loss or malfunction of PCU's which actually move the controls, jammed controls, and so on. As far as the B767 is concerned (and most aircraft that are not "Fly By Wire") the solution to redundancy is this:

Make the Captain's(CA) control column and yolk control the left side controls, and the First Officer's(FO) control column control the right side controls (its not the exact layout, but helps to explain the concept) and then connect the columns and yolks together beneath the cockpit floor so that they work in harmony 99.99% of the time. If the FO's elevator gets jammed (won't move for whatever reason), it doesn't mean doom because with the proper amount of effort, the connection between the FO's and CA's controls would be severed through control movement and allow the CA to control the left side elevator. No, he would NOT have BOTH sides to work with, but if the other elevator was jammed/not moving, it would be enough to fly the aircraft to a safe landing. Also, severing the control column interconnect would not necessarily severe the aileron harmony.

This configuration will definitely have it's limitation if the controls are severed and operated independently in opposite directions; they would essentially "cancel" each other, so if the FO's controls command both elevators to pitch the airplane nose down and is abrupt, even when the CA's controls are pulled back to correct the pitch over, the best it will do when the interconnect is severed is counter the nose down pitch tendency, not recover. What WOULD have saved the day is that the CA's pitch TRIM, having priority to the trim system, would have counteracted the FO's inputs although at the moment that the FO finally released his controls, the airplanes sudden pitch up could also lead to a control issue.


Same thing I said to wjcandee. I really appreciate the time you have taken to give provide immense information to this thread. I have learned a lot reading both of your posts. Thank you for your time posting great info. I think I speak for many when I say it is very much appreciated.
 
OldB747Driver
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:25 pm

Pbb152 wrote:
Same thing I said to wjcandee. I really appreciate the time you have taken to give provide immense information to this thread. I have learned a lot reading both of your posts. Thank you for your time posting great info. I think I speak for many when I say it is very much appreciated.


Thanks for saying so - must be that flight instructor background in me...
 
achmafooma
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:32 pm

Pbb152 wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:
achmafooma wrote:
Can somebody explain (in dumb layman terms ;) ) why the yokes are set up this way?


All modern airliners have to have redundancy for ANY critical control (one of the problems with the B737 Max is lack of redundancy to the sensor triggering the pitch down, for instance) and the PRIMARY controls certainly fall in that category. In order to do this, the engineers have to anticipate loss of hydraulics which power the controls, loss or malfunction of PCU's which actually move the controls, jammed controls, and so on. As far as the B767 is concerned (and most aircraft that are not "Fly By Wire") the solution to redundancy is this:

Make the Captain's(CA) control column and yolk control the left side controls, and the First Officer's(FO) control column control the right side controls (its not the exact layout, but helps to explain the concept) and then connect the columns and yolks together beneath the cockpit floor so that they work in harmony 99.99% of the time. If the FO's elevator gets jammed (won't move for whatever reason), it doesn't mean doom because with the proper amount of effort, the connection between the FO's and CA's controls would be severed through control movement and allow the CA to control the left side elevator. No, he would NOT have BOTH sides to work with, but if the other elevator was jammed/not moving, it would be enough to fly the aircraft to a safe landing. Also, severing the control column interconnect would not necessarily severe the aileron harmony.

This configuration will definitely have it's limitation if the controls are severed and operated independently in opposite directions; they would essentially "cancel" each other, so if the FO's controls command both elevators to pitch the airplane nose down and is abrupt, even when the CA's controls are pulled back to correct the pitch over, the best it will do when the interconnect is severed is counter the nose down pitch tendency, not recover. What WOULD have saved the day is that the CA's pitch TRIM, having priority to the trim system, would have counteracted the FO's inputs although at the moment that the FO finally released his controls, the airplanes sudden pitch up could also lead to a control issue.


Same thing I said to wjcandee. I really appreciate the time you have taken to give provide immense information to this thread. I have learned a lot reading both of your posts. Thank you for your time posting great info. I think I speak for many when I say it is very much appreciated.

100% agreed. Thank you so much for the clear explanation of why the yokes behave the way they do.
 
ryanov
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:18 pm

HPRamper wrote:
trnswrld wrote:
ryanov wrote:
Is it time to ask about a cargo shift for the 547th time?


Highly doubt it. Based on what people said the freight it was carrying is relatively light and even if there was a shift it’s nothing that a 767 couldn’t handle. Most shifts occur on takeoff and not mostly level flight. On top of that I thought I read that those airplanes are completely filled with containers (even empty ones) so that a shift isn’t really even possible.

Yes, plus rows of multiple locks between every single position making it incredibly unlikely for anything to move, and even if the load crew forgot to set some locks, you're looking at maybe a 1-position load shift, about 10 feet or so, for a container that weighs less than 3k. It's really time to put this "theory" to bed.

Oh god, I'm sorry, I was being sarcastic and thought it was obvious; sorry to have made anyone respond to this.
 
ryanov
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:45 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Someone mentioned 'train wreck'. There actually is an appropriately relevant NTSB report not yet finished long after the Amtrak disaster near the Nisqually delta December 2017. Obviously the engineer failed to slow the train for a 30mph corner, and hit it at 79mph. Three people were killed (and not the engineer). People have complained that NTSB is too slow. But knowing the previously mentioned fact does not explain the 'why?'. Was the engineer sick, distracted, inappropriately hired, trained, inappropriately unfamiliar with the route, were the tracks and or signals partially at fault? There was no Positive Train Control, was it reckless not to have waited for that improvement? All of that takes a lot of time, and there is a possibility that there will only be probable contributing causes as well as operator error.

The engineer was relatively unfamiliar with the route, if you look at the information that has been reported so far. There has been some criticism since then of the amount of training Amtrak was expecting to be sufficient. Most of the time you follow these things back far enough, there was some form of inappropriate pressure being applied somewhere (on engineers to not say "I'm not comfortable with this," even if it's internal pressure, on the company not to "waste" money on non-revenue work, on or by politicians to deliver the thing they asked for, etc). In the case of PTC, let's not forget that the primary alternative to a train with PTC is an automobile with squat. Drive a couple thousand people to their cars with plodding schedules or service adjustments required by PTC and you may kill a much larger number of people in the long run.

Fairly sure that in airline accidents, fatigue is almost always a factor (have not run the statistics there), and there's a pretty direct line from money to fatigue.
 
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WALmsp
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:49 pm

ryanov wrote:
HPRamper wrote:
trnswrld wrote:

Highly doubt it. Based on what people said the freight it was carrying is relatively light and even if there was a shift it’s nothing that a 767 couldn’t handle. Most shifts occur on takeoff and not mostly level flight. On top of that I thought I read that those airplanes are completely filled with containers (even empty ones) so that a shift isn’t really even possible.

Yes, plus rows of multiple locks between every single position making it incredibly unlikely for anything to move, and even if the load crew forgot to set some locks, you're looking at maybe a 1-position load shift, about 10 feet or so, for a container that weighs less than 3k. It's really time to put this "theory" to bed.

Oh god, I'm sorry, I was being sarcastic and thought it was obvious; sorry to have made anyone respond to this.


Some of us caught your sarcasm :lol:
In memory of my Dad, Robert "Bob" Fenrich, WAL 1964-1979, MSP ONT LAX
 
ryanov
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:52 pm

DalDC9Bos wrote:
And yes, my suggestion of being, 'attacked', was exactly because of people like you. Respect the fact that we are all coming from different backgrounds, experiences, and point of views, but that we all share an interest in aviation.

Can I ask: are you a pilot? Of what?
 
Yakflyer
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:19 am

glideslope900 wrote:
I’m not saying I think that’s what happened. Just relaying the rumour.


I think you're correct. I received this today with a few more details from a source I can not credit......

The initial bobble is from turbulence at 6200’. When the FO called for flaps 1, the captain accidentally hit the toga button. Toga didn’t engage until after flaps were set to 1, which then brought engine power to full, and started the initial pitch of 10 degrees nose up. The FO was startled, and shoved the nose forward... The CVR is startling, and baffling. The CA was pulling so hard against the FO that he sheared the pins on the stick and at that point had no control. They were IMC at the time. When they broke out into VMC, the FO said oh schit and started to pull. That was the round out you see. I won’t get into anything more until everything comes out. The records, the CVR, and what happened in the flight deck is truly shocking. They hit a negative 4 G dive initialy on the FOs push. All you hear is stuff hitting the ceiling and at one point a loud thud. They think the thud may have been the JS hitting the ceiling and maybe not wearing the shoulder harness. Like I said, I won’t get into anything more about the background of how it all happened. This is the accident in a nutshell. The facts that will come out are shocking.
 
freakyrat
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:24 am

So this will all boil down to pilot error and a failure of Cockpit Resource Management.

The accident probably wouldn't have happened if one of the crew would have disengaged the auto throttle and/or reduced power.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:05 am

Yak -- that exact quote was published verbatim on another forum, and I think it has a couple of errors in details, but the basic idea seems to comport with most other leaks.
 
dragon6172
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:47 am

achmafooma wrote:
mzlin wrote:
I had assumed both pilots felt the somatogravic illusion so they were both pushing down, but given the ability of the yokes to separate based on the antijam breakiut mechanism, indeed only one needs to.

I've thought the linked yokes were a nice feature to allow feedback from one pilot to the other but they do break free with only 30 pounds force difference. You'd think it would be better to have the yokes stably linked to prevent one pilot from losing all input, and if they wanted to get out of a jam they would need to pull on a handle somewhere in addition to pulling the yokes in opposite directions.

Can somebody explain (in dumb layman terms ;) ) why the yokes are set up this way? I always liked the idea of the linked yokes since they let the CA and FO know what each-other are doing, and I always thought that yoke position (on both sides) would always correspond to the position of the control surfaces....vs. the Airbus approach where different sidestick inputs are (as I understand it) just averaged out and have no direct relationship to the position of the control surfaces.

Hypothetically, if I'm the CA and I'm trying to pull up, and the FO has the yoke pushed hard down, and the breakout occurs, what does the yoke feel like to me? Can I still tell that the FO is commanding the opposite of what I'm commanding, or do they go pretty much fully independent after the breakout? And what does the plane do in response...does it average the inputs and stay in level-ish flight? Is there any way for me to forcibly override the other input if necessary in an emergency?

I'm not saying that's what happened here. I'm just trying to understand how the yokes work and what the purpose is for them working that way. (And if I missed an explanation upthread or elsewhere, I'd appreciate a link so I can check it out.) As an interested outsider, I just always assumed that Boeing yokes were always 'truthfully' positioned, relative to each other and to the control surfaces. So the very existence of a breakout mechanism is new information to me. Of course a fully-linked setup still wouldn't prevent the crew from trying to give opposite inputs, but it would then become a matter of communication (if possible) or physical strength and determination (if necessary) between them to control the plane.

Thanks in advance. This site is so great for learning the nuances of how these things work.


From this old thread about Egypt Air:
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19897

The elevator system on all 767s is the same It is a cable operated system which uses cables, torque tubes, bellcranks, and push-pull rods to open and close hydraulic valves on the elevator PCAs

The control columns are the manual input devices into the system The pilot's side is the primary with the f/o as backup, although they work together The yokes extend through the floor to a torque tube assembly The yokes rotate around a point above the torque tube assembly, NOT the center of it There are two halves to the assembly, pilot's and f/o Where they meet there is a breakout or override mechanism This is to maintain elevator control if one side jams

To understand the breakout, you might need to see a drawing of it, so let's make one Get a paper and pen Go ahead, I'll wait Okay, ready?

1) Draw a circle That's the torque tube
2) Draw an isosceles triangle on top of the circle The top of the triangle is the pivot point for the yoke
3) Draw a box on the right side of the triangle That is the support for the spring (we'll come back to it in a minute)
4) Draw what looks like a the end of a book lying open pages down under the circle, so that the spine just touches the bottom of the circle That's the cam plate
5) Draw a small circle where the pages of the book come together That's the cam following roller
6) Draw a beam from the 'left' pages, just touching the roller, and about two inches past the right pages
7) Draw a spring pulling the spring support to the end of the beam

Wasn't that fun???????

Okay so here's how it works Normally, the roller is held against the cam plate by the spring tension through the beam Forces from one yoke are transmitted via the breakout to the other side If there is a cable jam, when force in excess of 25 lbs aft is applied to the non-jammed side, the roller comes out of the groove in the cam plate (the spine of the book) This splits the elevators and allows each yoke to control its on side elevator As the split increases, so does the force required up to 41 lbs If the jam unsticks, or the force is reduced to below 25 lbs, the spring force the cam roller to reseat in the cam groove and the yokes are back in synch

If the force isn't removed, or the jam doesn't go away, the elevators will continue to move together with a 20 degree split.

So lets imagine for a moment. The f/o pushes the nose over and locks his elbows. The pilot pulls back. When he pulls with 25 lbs, the breakout activates and the elevators split. The split increases until 20 degrees separate left and right, but both are still aircraft nose down. As he continues to pull above 41 lbs, he will overcome the f/o, because he has mechanical advantage on his side (pulling is easier than pushing, except for rope). At that point the aircraft nose begins to come up. The f/o isn't expecting this and after a few moments of fighting, lets go of the yoke, reaches over, and puts the fuel levers to cutoff. The pilot can't pull back and restart at the same time.
Phrogs Phorever
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:00 am

cdark wrote:
Anyone suggesting adding cameras on the flight deck are most likely not in professional aviation. I say this because our airplanes and companies already have massive amounts of data about each and every flight outside of FDR and CVR systems. Commercial pilots in the 121 environment are held to such a high standard and are always under scrutiny for the decisions they make.

Adding cameras to the flight deck would absolutely change the way people behave, in a bad way. It’s difficult enough to make a tough decision when you’re in an emergency or urgent situation, there is no need to have the added pressure of knowing you are being video recorded.

When it comes to trains, subways, buses etc. cameras were added to combat sleeping, cell phone use and other similar safety issues that arose with accidents.

Lastly, cameras would do nothing for determining causes of crashes. It’s hard to think of any crashes that couldn’t be determined through the CVR and FDR systems. The video footage would do little more than appease prying and curious eyes when the footage inevitably gets leaked to the public. And we all know it would get leaked.

FDRs can give investigators thousands of perimeters, tell them the exact location of switches, flight control inputs, system statueses and engine information. It gives a far clearer image of the flight than any video footage would offer.

It’s a bad, exspensive, and ultimately pointless idea that no pilots unions will ever agree to.

This reads like a union press release....I got ripped to shreds a few weeks ago for suggesting such a thing would be impossible to implement because of unions and this thread is backing me up beyond belief.

Nobody thinks twice because of a CVR or FDR system, why would they react any different with a camera? I'm all for privacy, but damn, you have lives in your hands, sometimes you've gotta bite the bullet for the greater good.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
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Pudelhund
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:06 am

What a ghastly rumor. Even if the sequence of events posted above is accurate, there are still so many questions. You know it almost has to be true because nobody could make up something with so many obvious objections to it... like why didn’t anyone do X... It is like being told about what actually happened to AF447 for the first time.
 
spacecadet
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:16 am

OldB747Driver wrote:
The reason I am stunned that this could even possibly happen is twofold: One, that such a basic skill as unusual attitude recovery was not taught or evaluated very well - if at ALL - and two, that regardless of what physiological illusion may be suffered, that a pilot does not remove themselves from the control picture when a Captain attempts control is, well, it calls into question the very basis of the crew concept.


Did the captain actually attempt a positive change of controls, or did he just grab the yoke?

Crews are not trained to relinquish control unless a positive change (ie. a callout of "I have control", "you have control" and then a second "I have control") is made, because you have no idea what the other guy is actually doing. Maybe he just grabbed the yoke to make a radio callout - if you let go, nobody is flying the plane.

I haven't read every page of the thread so maybe the captain did do that, but it's not included in any of the summaries of the rumors posted in the past page or two.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
wjcandee
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:14 am

Space -- that's a good question. We obviously don't have the CVR transcript yet, and it seems like people are being careful not to talk too much about what's on it. (Although I have to say that what has been leaked is gruesome, so I do expect that it's going to be one of the most upsetting ever to read.) Based upon having read a fair number of transcripts of accident CVRs, and some familiarity with the UAL 747 almost-accident, I do have an educated guess. In United, the two bunkies were on the jumpseats for takeoff, and were literally screaming at the FO, who was similarly locked into what he was doing, with massive tunnel vision, but did relinquish control when the CPT finally told him to. I think it's probably a safe assumption that the CPT here was issuing commands and that the jumpseater, if conscious, would likely have broken protocol and not remained quiet. But that's just a guess in a circumstance that we can all agree was beyond unimaginable. I guess we will know soon enough.

This whole thing happened so fast that questions about what people were saying or doing need to take that into account. Of the 18-ish seconds in the accident sequence, plainly a number of them occur after the aircraft exits IMC and the FO becomes oriented and pulls the yoke aft. From the video, we can estimate that they were in VMC for least 5 seconds, and probably more. So we are talking about the 10-13 seconds that the aircraft is in a dive in IMC. Even if you had a cattle prod in your hands, realized what the guy had done, verbally took command, realized that the guy wasn't relinquishing control, and hit him with it, you would have used I would think 5-6 seconds of that 10-13, meaning that it would be very close as to whether one could recover in the extra 5-6 seconds you would get by having some means of disabling the errant pilot. That said, they did get the nose up 30 degrees after exiting IMC, which is an important data point. I am sure that the NTSB will try to calculate whether it was possible, given the remaining altitude, to recover from the dive once it had been established, giving the crew a few seconds to react and do everything right, and it will be interesting to see how they calculate all of that. The initial 4G event would have had significant aerodynamic and structural effects, and so would the attempted recovery, so somebody is going to have to work all of that through. The answer is probably that it was recoverable after the initial pitch-over, but there wasn't a lot of time to do it.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:41 am

glideslope900 wrote:
I have heard a rumour unofficially that this is what happened-

FO calls for flaps 1, and CA accidentally hits TOGA. TOGA does not engage until flaps hit 1.

Throttles go to GA power and airplane pitches up. FO, startled, pushes down. CA pulls back and there is a tug of war. CA shears the bolts of his control column.

Upon breaking out of IMC, FO sees water, gets re oriented, and tries to pull out of dive.

CVR “very startling, loud noises, unbelievable, thud which could be JS hitting ceiling.”

Yakflyer wrote:
They think the thud may have been the JS hitting the ceiling and maybe not wearing the shoulder harness


It took a while for all the acronyms to percolate through my addled grey cells, but when I eventually twigged that "JS hitting the ceiling" was the not a reference to a broken joystick, something went clunk in my head.

If the jumpseater (JS) was not strapped in, maybe he was standing, watching and learning from the more experienced 767 crew, then indeed when the dive started and the 767 went into negative g, he might have found himself on the ceiling.
Assuming that possibility is accepted, what happened next could be the key.

As the plane stabilised in the dive, g forces returned to normal, and the jumpseater came down off the ceiling, but where did he land? With the plane in a steep dive, he would naturally be driven towards the front end.

If he came down (arms and legs flailing around) on top of the FO, maybe right onto his arms and the control yoke, we suddenly have 160 lbs of jumpseater driving the yoke forward regardless of what the Captain is doing next door. That would be when the shear bolts failed.

Failing that, did the JS end up straddled horizontally across the windscreen, the instrument panel, the throttles?
Did he rip the pilots headsets off as his body crashed through?
This would go a long way to explaining any apparent lack of proper response from the pilots.
If it took the three of them five seconds to disentangle his body from the controls, that was five seconds they couldn't afford.

The upside of this scenario is that it eliminates the supposed tug-of war between Captain & FO.

So, question #1; Is it a reasonable possibility the jumpseater was not adequately strapped in?

(remember - all this came from the comment above regarding a suspicious "thud" heard on the CVR)
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Scarebus34
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:42 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
glideslope900 wrote:
I have heard a rumour unofficially that this is what happened-

FO calls for flaps 1, and CA accidentally hits TOGA. TOGA does not engage until flaps hit 1.

Throttles go to GA power and airplane pitches up. FO, startled, pushes down. CA pulls back and there is a tug of war. CA shears the bolts of his control column.

Upon breaking out of IMC, FO sees water, gets re oriented, and tries to pull out of dive.

CVR “very startling, loud noises, unbelievable, thud which could be JS hitting ceiling.”

Yakflyer wrote:
They think the thud may have been the JS hitting the ceiling and maybe not wearing the shoulder harness


It took a while for all the acronyms to percolate through my addled grey cells, but when I eventually twigged that "JS hitting the ceiling" was the not a reference to a broken joystick, something went clunk in my head.

If the jumpseater (JS) was not strapped in, maybe he was standing, watching and learning from the more experienced 767 crew, then indeed when the dive started and the 767 went into negative g, he might have found himself on the ceiling.
Assuming that possibility is accepted, what happened next could be the key.

As the plane stabilised in the dive, g forces returned to normal, and the jumpseater came down off the ceiling, but where did he land? With the plane in a steep dive, he would naturally be driven towards the front end.

If he came down (arms and legs flailing around) on top of the FO, maybe right onto his arms and the control yoke, we suddenly have 160 lbs of jumpseater driving the yoke forward regardless of what the Captain is doing next door. That would be when the shear bolts failed.

Failing that, did the JS end up straddled horizontally across the windscreen, the instrument panel, the throttles?
Did he rip the pilots headsets off as his body crashed through?
This would go a long way to explaining any apparent lack of proper response from the pilots.
If it took the three of them five seconds to disentangle his body from the controls, that was five seconds they couldn't afford.

The upside of this scenario is that it eliminates the supposed tug-of war between Captain & FO.

So, question #1; Is it a reasonable possibility the jumpseater was not adequately strapped in?

(remember - all this came from the comment above regarding a suspicious "thud" heard on the CVR)

It’s reasonable to suggest he may not have been strapped in, but not standing and “watching and learning.”
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:57 pm

Scarebus34 wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
So, question #1; Is it a reasonable possibility the jumpseater was not adequately strapped in?

It’s reasonable to suggest he may not have been strapped in, but not standing and “watching and learning.”


Ok, I'm willing to be educated; what are the rules?
With (passenger) seatbelts it is "whenever deemed necessary" by the aircraft commander.
I don't think I have ever seen a specific height specified, for fairly obvious reasons.

Distracting the pilots by talking about Seattle Seahawks game from last night is obviously a no-no.
But way back I did ask if a jumpseater asking pertinent questions might violate the 10,000 feet sterile cockpit rule.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Lrockeagle
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:57 pm

spacecadet wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:
The reason I am stunned that this could even possibly happen is twofold: One, that such a basic skill as unusual attitude recovery was not taught or evaluated very well - if at ALL - and two, that regardless of what physiological illusion may be suffered, that a pilot does not remove themselves from the control picture when a Captain attempts control is, well, it calls into question the very basis of the crew concept.


Did the captain actually attempt a positive change of controls, or did he just grab the yoke?

Crews are not trained to relinquish control unless a positive change (ie. a callout of "I have control", "you have control" and then a second "I have control") is made, because you have no idea what the other guy is actually doing. Maybe he just grabbed the yoke to make a radio callout - if you let go, nobody is flying the plane.

I haven't read every page of the thread so maybe the captain did do that, but it's not included in any of the summaries of the rumors posted in the past page or two.

I’m going to put this out here just as something I’ve been told and am not trying to speak ill or make any kind of guesstimation of what may have happened; on my first checkride my DPE told me that on more than one occasion he had to elbow the person he was examining to get let them to relinquish the controls when they were losing control. Hard enough he was scared he may have broken ribs. Sometimes people freeze up when things go sideways. Again, not making any speculation as to what happened here just relaying experiences from tight situations
Lrockeagle
14 years ago

I got $20 says AA takes their 787's with GE powerplants. Just a hunch. Any takers?
 
Scarebus34
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:14 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Scarebus34 wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
So, question #1; Is it a reasonable possibility the jumpseater was not adequately strapped in?

It’s reasonable to suggest he may not have been strapped in, but not standing and “watching and learning.”


Ok, I'm willing to be educated; what are the rules?
With (passenger) seatbelts it is "whenever deemed necessary" by the aircraft commander.
I don't think I have ever seen a specific height specified, for fairly obvious reasons.

Distracting the pilots by talking about Seattle Seahawks game from last night is obviously a no-no.
But way back I did ask if a jumpseater asking pertinent questions might violate the 10,000 feet sterile cockpit rule.

Yes a jumpseater must abide by sterile cockpit. No hard rule about when a jumpseater must be strapped in. I just find it hard to believe he was “standing and watching or learning” as you had suggested. It’s very likely he may not have been fully strapped in, however.
 
Indy
Posts: 4840
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:14 pm

OldB747Driver wrote:
Loss of life or an aircraft is no laughing matter, but do you remember the "Breaking News" report of that San Francisco area station about the names of the flight crew involved with the Asiana B777 that impacted the sea wall?

    Sum Tin Wong
    Wi Tu Lo
    Ho Lee Fuk
    Bang Ding Ow

Because it exposed the 'fact-free' reporting that the media attempts as they report on aviation-related topics (much like that Business Insider article), I appreciated the probable exasperation of the person at the NTSB in responding to the relentless persuit of the media to have a shiny object (not information that will benefit the public, but something that helps them sell more ad space). Point is, as far as the media is concerned, you probably aren't reading the direct words of the lead investigator.

In the same vein, I'm not sure who finally transcribes the press release updates, but I assume they are someone with aviation knowledge that is given information for release but not necessarily how it is to be worded and assumptions can be made. In this case, what they came up with was later questioned and found, for one reason or another, to make an assumption they did not know for certain or was incorrect on its face.


You can and cannot blame the media for that one. What do you do when you run the names by the NTSB and they confirm them? Then again... just read the damn names out loud and have enough sense to know something isn't right. Even if the NTSB confirms it.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14100
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:38 pm

If this crash was a question of CRM, then the pilots had weak points in their training, follow up training or personalities. That is something Atlas as well as the NTSB will look at and if part of what happened here, will lead to action at Atlas and their pilots. Still we cannot ignore possible information, mechanical, electrical or other problem that contributed to it and improperly handled by the pilots.
 
achmafooma
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:30 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:15 pm

dragon6172 wrote:
From this old thread about Egypt Air:
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19897

The elevator system on all 767s is the same It is a cable operated system which uses cables, torque tubes, bellcranks, and push-pull rods to open and close hydraulic valves on the elevator PCAs

The control columns are the manual input devices into the system The pilot's side is the primary with the f/o as backup, although they work together The yokes extend through the floor to a torque tube assembly The yokes rotate around a point above the torque tube assembly, NOT the center of it There are two halves to the assembly, pilot's and f/o Where they meet there is a breakout or override mechanism This is to maintain elevator control if one side jams

To understand the breakout, you might need to see a drawing of it, so let's make one Get a paper and pen Go ahead, I'll wait Okay, ready?

1) Draw a circle That's the torque tube
2) Draw an isosceles triangle on top of the circle The top of the triangle is the pivot point for the yoke
3) Draw a box on the right side of the triangle That is the support for the spring (we'll come back to it in a minute)
4) Draw what looks like a the end of a book lying open pages down under the circle, so that the spine just touches the bottom of the circle That's the cam plate
5) Draw a small circle where the pages of the book come together That's the cam following roller
6) Draw a beam from the 'left' pages, just touching the roller, and about two inches past the right pages
7) Draw a spring pulling the spring support to the end of the beam

Wasn't that fun???????

Okay so here's how it works Normally, the roller is held against the cam plate by the spring tension through the beam Forces from one yoke are transmitted via the breakout to the other side If there is a cable jam, when force in excess of 25 lbs aft is applied to the non-jammed side, the roller comes out of the groove in the cam plate (the spine of the book) This splits the elevators and allows each yoke to control its on side elevator As the split increases, so does the force required up to 41 lbs If the jam unsticks, or the force is reduced to below 25 lbs, the spring force the cam roller to reseat in the cam groove and the yokes are back in synch

If the force isn't removed, or the jam doesn't go away, the elevators will continue to move together with a 20 degree split.

So lets imagine for a moment. The f/o pushes the nose over and locks his elbows. The pilot pulls back. When he pulls with 25 lbs, the breakout activates and the elevators split. The split increases until 20 degrees separate left and right, but both are still aircraft nose down. As he continues to pull above 41 lbs, he will overcome the f/o, because he has mechanical advantage on his side (pulling is easier than pushing, except for rope). At that point the aircraft nose begins to come up. The f/o isn't expecting this and after a few moments of fighting, lets go of the yoke, reaches over, and puts the fuel levers to cutoff. The pilot can't pull back and restart at the same time.

Thank you for finding and sharing that. I won't pretend to fully understand the mechanical design (I didn't get a piece of paper out and I'm no good at drawing anyway), but the description of what happens in the hypothetical scenario is very helpful at demonstrating how this works in practice.
 
trnswrld
Posts: 1357
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 2:19 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:22 pm

So let me get this straight.... The initial mess up was caused by the captain accidentally hitting the toga button when reaching for the flaps lever? I did not know there was a toga button located down on the console. I thought it was up near the auto pilot console on the glare shield. So hitting this button did nothing until the flaps completely moved to their selected setting? For those more familiar, so it's possible the captain had no idea he even hit this button?
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1147
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:24 pm

I still can't understand how the FO could put the aircraft in such an extreme attitude. Why would he overreact to such an extreme degree? And why did Atlas hire him if he failed his upgrades when he was at the regionals?
 
highflier92660
Posts: 690
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:16 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:33 pm

Lrockeagle wrote:
So you’re telling me the third world pilot did it? The unions will be all over this like the Colgan crash.


A career in diplomacy awaits you sir. Whether or not the F/O was one of we fair-haired chaps is of lesser importance than how an incidence of somatogravic illusion escalated into an apparent panic reaction. Despite the contradictions between his flight instruments, his sensory illusion and the captain, who most certainly early in the sequence of events said something to the effect "I have the aircraft", this man fought with all his strength and determination to maintain a pitch-down (fatal) nose attitude. The psychologists and human factors experts are going to have a field day with this one.
 
B737900ER
Posts: 1028
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:26 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:37 pm

trnswrld wrote:
So let me get this straight.... The initial mess up was caused by the captain accidentally hitting the toga button when reaching for the flaps lever? I did not know there was a toga button located down on the console. I thought it was up near the auto pilot console on the glare shield. So hitting this button did nothing until the flaps completely moved to their selected setting? For those more familiar, so it's possible the captain had no idea he even hit this button?

Sounds like a design flaw. Let the NYT know so they can whip up some uninformed hysteria. Let’s blame the manufacturer and ground the aircraft. Sound familiar?
 
ikramerica
Posts: 14836
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:03 pm

B737900ER wrote:
trnswrld wrote:
So let me get this straight.... The initial mess up was caused by the captain accidentally hitting the toga button when reaching for the flaps lever? I did not know there was a toga button located down on the console. I thought it was up near the auto pilot console on the glare shield. So hitting this button did nothing until the flaps completely moved to their selected setting? For those more familiar, so it's possible the captain had no idea he even hit this button?

Sounds like a design flaw. Let the NYT know so they can whip up some uninformed hysteria. Let’s blame the manufacturer and ground the aircraft. Sound familiar?

Ground all aircraft for a year until pilot error can be ruled out in the final report. That's safety.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3356
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:17 pm

The TOGA switches are on back side of the power levers. This summation is more than a little far fetched IMO. Even if you hit the switches, I don't think selecting flaps 1 after pushing the TOGA switches would cause TOGA power to be applied. You need a better story than this.
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 568
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:22 pm

trnswrld wrote:
So let me get this straight.... The initial mess up was caused by the captain accidentally hitting the toga button when reaching for the flaps lever? I did not know there was a toga button located down on the console. I thought it was up near the auto pilot console on the glare shield. So hitting this button did nothing until the flaps completely moved to their selected setting? For those more familiar, so it's possible the captain had no idea he even hit this button?


"GA" will show up on the ADI screen indicating it's armed.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1147
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:42 pm

BravoOne wrote:
The TOGA switches are on back side of the power levers. This summation is more than a little far fetched IMO. Even if you hit the switches, I don't think selecting flaps 1 after pushing the TOGA switches would cause TOGA power to be applied. You need a better story than this.


Agreed. It's not in a location where it would easily be hit by moving the flap handle.

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