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7BOEING7
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:54 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
trnswrld wrote:
So let me get this straight.... The initial mess up was caused by the captain accidentally hitting the toga button when reaching for the flaps lever? I did not know there was a toga button located down on the console. I thought it was up near the auto pilot console on the glare shield. So hitting this button did nothing until the flaps completely moved to their selected setting? For those more familiar, so it's possible the captain had no idea he even hit this button?


"GA" will show up on the ADI screen indicating it's armed.


After the flaps are out or Glide slope capture. “GA” will not show up by pushing either switch prior to the either of the above occurring — just to be clear.

It’s possible when selecting Flaps 1 the captain accidentally pushed the right switch if he went “under” rather than “over” to select the flaps. But one would have expected him to immediately notice that and take corrective action. Similarly if the PF had his hands on/near the throttles like he should have he could have prevented the throttles from moving excessively.
 
trueblew
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:00 pm

Scarebus34 wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Scarebus34 wrote:
It’s reasonable to suggest he may not have been strapped in, but not standing and “watching and learning.”


Ok, I'm willing to be educated; what are the rules?
With (passenger) seatbelts it is "whenever deemed necessary" by the aircraft commander.
I don't think I have ever seen a specific height specified, for fairly obvious reasons.

Distracting the pilots by talking about Seattle Seahawks game from last night is obviously a no-no.
But way back I did ask if a jumpseater asking pertinent questions might violate the 10,000 feet sterile cockpit rule.

Yes a jumpseater must abide by sterile cockpit. No hard rule about when a jumpseater must be strapped in. I just find it hard to believe he was “standing and watching or learning” as you had suggested. It’s very likely he may not have been fully strapped in, however.


I cannot imagine a single reasonable scenario where a jumpseater would not be seated with at least the lap belt on below 10,000' during normal operations. The shoulder harnesses must be on for landing, but in theory he could have left them off until the last minute.
 
Whiplash6
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:05 pm

trueblew wrote:
Scarebus34 wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:

Ok, I'm willing to be educated; what are the rules?
With (passenger) seatbelts it is "whenever deemed necessary" by the aircraft commander.
I don't think I have ever seen a specific height specified, for fairly obvious reasons.

Distracting the pilots by talking about Seattle Seahawks game from last night is obviously a no-no.
But way back I did ask if a jumpseater asking pertinent questions might violate the 10,000 feet sterile cockpit rule.

Yes a jumpseater must abide by sterile cockpit. No hard rule about when a jumpseater must be strapped in. I just find it hard to believe he was “standing and watching or learning” as you had suggested. It’s very likely he may not have been fully strapped in, however.


I cannot imagine a single reasonable scenario where a jumpseater would not be seated with at least the lap belt on below 10,000' during normal operations. The shoulder harnesses must be on for landing, but in theory he could have left them off until the last minute.


Have you ever flown, or even been on, a 767 freighter with a Jumpseat and 3 supernumerary seats behind that against the bulkhead?
 
trueblew
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:46 pm

Whiplash6 wrote:
trueblew wrote:
Scarebus34 wrote:
Yes a jumpseater must abide by sterile cockpit. No hard rule about when a jumpseater must be strapped in. I just find it hard to believe he was “standing and watching or learning” as you had suggested. It’s very likely he may not have been fully strapped in, however.


I cannot imagine a single reasonable scenario where a jumpseater would not be seated with at least the lap belt on below 10,000' during normal operations. The shoulder harnesses must be on for landing, but in theory he could have left them off until the last minute.


Have you ever flown, or even been on, a 767 freighter with a Jumpseat and 3 supernumerary seats behind that against the bulkhead?


Yes. And in sterile I was seated and belted, as I'd imagine any jumpseater would be.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:07 pm

ikramerica wrote:
B737900ER wrote:
Let’s blame the manufacturer and ground the aircraft. Sound familiar?

Ground all aircraft for a year until pilot error can be ruled out in the final report. That's safety.


Salty! :)

If two 767s had crashed in very similar circumstances with poorly implemented flight control software, killing hundreds of passengers early in service, I imagine they could well have been grounded.

And we'll just gloss over the fact that this 767 wasn't flown by "3rd World, poorly-trained, low-skilled, inexperienced" pilots. :wink2:
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There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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PW100
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:03 pm

scbriml wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
B737900ER wrote:
Let’s blame the manufacturer and ground the aircraft. Sound familiar?

Ground all aircraft for a year until pilot error can be ruled out in the final report. That's safety.


Salty! :)

If two 767s had crashed in very similar circumstances with poorly implemented flight control software, killing hundreds of passengers early in service, I imagine they could well have been grounded.

And we'll just gloss over the fact that this 767 wasn't flown by "3rd World, poorly-trained, low-skilled, inexperienced" pilots. :wink2:


Well stated.
You could have added to the "gloss" the fact that the 767 has 50 - 100 MILLION flight hours in its pocket over 30 years of service, compared to the baby 150K or so of the MAX.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
cdark
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:08 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
cdark wrote:
Anyone suggesting adding cameras on the flight deck are most likely not in professional aviation. I say this because our airplanes and companies already have massive amounts of data about each and every flight outside of FDR and CVR systems. Commercial pilots in the 121 environment are held to such a high standard and are always under scrutiny for the decisions they make.

Adding cameras to the flight deck would absolutely change the way people behave, in a bad way. It’s difficult enough to make a tough decision when you’re in an emergency or urgent situation, there is no need to have the added pressure of knowing you are being video recorded.

When it comes to trains, subways, buses etc. cameras were added to combat sleeping, cell phone use and other similar safety issues that arose with accidents.

Lastly, cameras would do nothing for determining causes of crashes. It’s hard to think of any crashes that couldn’t be determined through the CVR and FDR systems. The video footage would do little more than appease prying and curious eyes when the footage inevitably gets leaked to the public. And we all know it would get leaked.

FDRs can give investigators thousands of perimeters, tell them the exact location of switches, flight control inputs, system statueses and engine information. It gives a far clearer image of the flight than any video footage would offer.

It’s a bad, exspensive, and ultimately pointless idea that no pilots unions will ever agree to.

This reads like a union press release....I got ripped to shreds a few weeks ago for suggesting such a thing would be impossible to implement because of unions and this thread is backing me up beyond belief.

Nobody thinks twice because of a CVR or FDR system, why would they react any different with a camera? I'm all for privacy, but damn, you have lives in your hands, sometimes you've gotta bite the bullet for the greater good.


My simple response is, why? There is no point to adding cameras. Accident causes are determined just fine with FDR and CVR. Cameras would just give the company another way to penalize pilots and after a crash or incident video footage would be released to the public. The footage would be subject to public opinion and conclusions would be made on a topic that they don’t know about. It wouldn’t be good for anyone.
 
Yakflyer
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:07 pm

BravoOne wrote:
The TOGA switches are on back side of the power levers. This summation is more than a little far fetched IMO. Even if you hit the switches, I don't think selecting flaps 1 after pushing the TOGA switches would cause TOGA power to be applied. You need a better story than this.


Frankly I don't know how the logic or mechanics would work. I do have several thousand 767 hours but it was not something I ever ran across. However we used to mess with new hires or flight attendants on the 727 by pulling the flush motor CB for the forward lav and then tripping the lever to flush the toilet. When the victim would go into the lav and get "settled" we would push the CB back in and the flush motor would flush. Anyway I guess I could see it working that way.
 
Yakflyer
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:19 pm

scbriml wrote:
And we'll just gloss over the fact that this 767 wasn't flown by "3rd World, poorly-trained, low-skilled, inexperienced" pilots. :wink2:



I can not confirm this, but in talking to an Atlas pilot the FO on this flight was fired not only from a previous regional, but also Atlas. Apparently he filed a law suit and Altas had to take him back. The LCAs were told he could not fail. I'm told there are FOs choosing not to upgrade because they are concerned about being hurt by some of the junior FOs.

If the USA has courts and judges willing to override the opinions of evaluators, we have become the third world.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:37 am

Yakflyer wrote:
scbriml wrote:
And we'll just gloss over the fact that this 767 wasn't flown by "3rd World, poorly-trained, low-skilled, inexperienced" pilots. :wink2:



I can not confirm this, but in talking to an Atlas pilot the FO on this flight was fired not only from a previous regional, but also Atlas. Apparently he filed a law suit and Altas had to take him back. The LCAs were told he could not fail. I'm told there are FOs choosing not to upgrade because they are concerned about being hurt by some of the junior FOs.

If the USA has courts and judges willing to override the opinions of evaluators, we have become the third world.


Y'all are forgetting that the FO wasn't from the US, I think.

What I think was meant to be sarcasm with the "third world" comments sort of takes on a different meaning when you remember that...
 
Whiplash6
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:36 am

Jouhou wrote:
Yakflyer wrote:
scbriml wrote:
And we'll just gloss over the fact that this 767 wasn't flown by "3rd World, poorly-trained, low-skilled, inexperienced" pilots. :wink2:



I can not confirm this, but in talking to an Atlas pilot the FO on this flight was fired not only from a previous regional, but also Atlas. Apparently he filed a law suit and Altas had to take him back. The LCAs were told he could not fail. I'm told there are FOs choosing not to upgrade because they are concerned about being hurt by some of the junior FOs.

If the USA has courts and judges willing to override the opinions of evaluators, we have become the third world.


Y'all are forgetting that the FO wasn't from the US, I think.

What I think was meant to be sarcasm with the "third world" comments sort of takes on a different meaning when you remember that...

Antigua is 3rd world.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:57 am

Yakflyer wrote:
I can not confirm this, but in talking to an Atlas pilot the FO on this flight was fired not only from a previous regional, but also Atlas. Apparently he filed a law suit and Altas had to take him back.


I think we should be careful about getting ahead of this kind of stuff based on rumor. I did a little search, and the guy was never a party to a lawsuit in US Federal court, where a lot of labor actions are brought. Doesn't mean he didn't bring a state law case or bring a grievance, but at least as far as a federal lawsuit, he doesn't seem to appear in the nationwide database of cases going back like 30 years. Also not a party to any case in the NY State supreme court (trial court) database. (NY is where Atlas is headquartered, so it is often sued there.)
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:05 am

Whiplash6 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Yakflyer wrote:


I can not confirm this, but in talking to an Atlas pilot the FO on this flight was fired not only from a previous regional, but also Atlas. Apparently he filed a law suit and Altas had to take him back. The LCAs were told he could not fail. I'm told there are FOs choosing not to upgrade because they are concerned about being hurt by some of the junior FOs.

If the USA has courts and judges willing to override the opinions of evaluators, we have become the third world.


Y'all are forgetting that the FO wasn't from the US, I think.

What I think was meant to be sarcasm with the "third world" comments sort of takes on a different meaning when you remember that...

Antigua is 3rd world.


That's what I was saying. People are cracking jokes as if the dude was from the US.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:15 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Whiplash6 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Y'all are forgetting that the FO wasn't from the US, I think.

What I think was meant to be sarcasm with the "third world" comments sort of takes on a different meaning when you remember that...

Antigua is 3rd world.

That's what I was saying. People are cracking jokes as if the dude was from the US.

Or just maybe they were offering an observation about the supposed infallibility of pilots flying for a US airline, in US airspace, under strict US regulations?

The FULL original quote was ""3rd World, poorly-trained, low-skilled, inexperienced"

Four distinct criteria, to be taken as a whole; that seems to be what y'all forgetting. :roll:

The actual birth origins of either pilot is about as relevant as arguing that 38th Governor of California was Austrian. That arcane fact can still be funny when expressed as a joke, but I guess you need to make allowances for those who are unable to see the bigger picture and probably still see the last POTUS as half-Kenyan.

Knowing the author of the joke, I am 100% certain that he meant no disrespect to the Atlas pilots. His ire was directed at those narrow-minded & racist individuals slinging mud on the MAX threads.

Until we know otherwise, we must believe that both of these Atlas pilots were well trained, experienced, and competent. Just like the two from Lion Air and the two from Ethiopian ET302. :tombstone:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
trnswrld
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:41 pm

^^^ET302 having experienced, well trained, and competent pilots? I know there will always be disagreements on this subject, but to me a 29 year old captain and a FO who has less hours than most private pilots is IMO downright scary.....just my opinion that’s all.
 
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PW100
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:57 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Whiplash6 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

Y'all are forgetting that the FO wasn't from the US, I think.

What I think was meant to be sarcasm with the "third world" comments sort of takes on a different meaning when you remember that...

Antigua is 3rd world.


That's what I was saying. People are cracking jokes as if the dude was from the US.


I guess the important thing in that respect is not so much where he was from, but where/how did he receive his training? Was that (equivalent) to US standards, or other "lesser standards"?
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:13 am

PW100 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Whiplash6 wrote:
Antigua is 3rd world.


That's what I was saying. People are cracking jokes as if the dude was from the US.


I guess the important thing in that respect is not so much where he was from, but where/how did he receive his training? Was that (equivalent) to US standards, or other "lesser standards"?


If the rumored sequence of events are true, the FO's issue wasn't his training, it was his control of his own instinctive responses in a stressful situation. When a crisis suddenly arises, some people freeze up, some people panic, and some people stay calm and handle the situation. I've seen some very intelligent people well trained in how to respond to a particular emergency, when faced with that same emergency for real, completely fail to respond in the manner in which they were trained.

Maybe not the best temperament for a pilot, but still just a common human thing.
 
Ruderod
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:19 am

I searched aircraft type and the word "elevator" in various ways and found this
http://asj.nolan-law.com/2011/02/jammed ... ed-design/

Possible small bit of debris in the right place jams that mechanism? RIP to pilots and sad job of looking for bodies.
 
FlyinRabbit88
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:50 am

Yakflyer wrote:
scbriml wrote:
And we'll just gloss over the fact that this 767 wasn't flown by "3rd World, poorly-trained, low-skilled, inexperienced" pilots. :wink2:



I can not confirm this, but in talking to an Atlas pilot the FO on this flight was fired not only from a previous regional, but also Atlas. Apparently he filed a law suit and Altas had to take him back. The LCAs were told he could not fail. I'm told there are FOs choosing not to upgrade because they are concerned about being hurt by some of the junior FOs.

If the USA has courts and judges willing to override the opinions of evaluators, we have become the third world.

Take it for what it’s worth but two of my friends who were captains on the E120 flew with the FO back when he was flying at InterCaribbean. Of course that was around 2008-2010 so who knows what kind of pilot he was at atlas since then. But the FO did not have a good flying reputation around the time they flew together.
 
b747400erf
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:51 am

The moment the picture got published of the first officer all the rumors started on every aviation related site. His mistakes led to the crash. He sued his employer. He had pilots at his old airline that hated him. You people spreading this racism should be ashamed of yourselves.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:59 am

Jouhou wrote:
PW100 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

That's what I was saying. People are cracking jokes as if the dude was from the US.


I guess the important thing in that respect is not so much where he was from, but where/how did he receive his training? Was that (equivalent) to US standards, or other "lesser standards"?


If the rumored sequence of events are true, the FO's issue wasn't his training, it was his control of his own instinctive responses in a stressful situation. When a crisis suddenly arises, some people freeze up, some people panic, and some people stay calm and handle the situation. I've seen some very intelligent people well trained in how to respond to a particular emergency, when faced with that same emergency for real, completely fail to respond in the manner in which they were trained.

Maybe not the best temperament for a pilot, but still just a common human thing.


During my flight training if my instructor said that she had the airplane then I immediately gave her control. It's something you are taught in the very beginning. In a crew environment if one pilot suspects that the other pilot is about to or has put the aircraft in imminent danger then they are to take control and the other pilot is to hand over control.

This is a good video of how that is supposed to happen.

https://youtu.be/rAstLZHjOi0
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:54 am

b747400erf wrote:
The moment the picture got published of the first officer all the rumors started on every aviation related site. His mistakes led to the crash. He sued his employer. He had pilots at his old airline that hated him. You people spreading this racism should be ashamed of yourselves.

How are observations about his life racist? You can say those things about anyone.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
impilot
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:26 pm

b747400erf wrote:
The moment the picture got published of the first officer all the rumors started on every aviation related site. His mistakes led to the crash. He sued his employer. He had pilots at his old airline that hated him. You people spreading this racism should be ashamed of yourselves.


Stop playing the race card. His previous job issues weren’t related to his race, but his performance (or lack thereof). I’m sure in due time it will come out in more official places than a.net.
 
Moosefire
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:02 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
b747400erf wrote:
The moment the picture got published of the first officer all the rumors started on every aviation related site. His mistakes led to the crash. He sued his employer. He had pilots at his old airline that hated him. You people spreading this racism should be ashamed of yourselves.


It has nothing to do with his race and everything to do with his reputation... this is a small business, especially in the pilot community.
MD-11F/C-17A Pilot
 
zanl188
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:25 am

As those of us who who follow NTSB investigations know, NTSB conducts 3 press conferences at the site before they leave to go back to DC. They've conducted the initial press conference but not the second. I expect the second to be a whopper.
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
glideslope900
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:35 am

Articles seem to confirm the above rumours.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.co ... 1552680411
 
ikramerica
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:39 am

scbriml wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
B737900ER wrote:
Let’s blame the manufacturer and ground the aircraft. Sound familiar?

Ground all aircraft for a year until pilot error can be ruled out in the final report. That's safety.


Salty! :)

If two 767s had crashed in very similar circumstances with poorly implemented flight control software, killing hundreds of passengers early in service, I imagine they could well have been grounded.

And we'll just gloss over the fact that this 767 wasn't flown by "3rd World, poorly-trained, low-skilled, inexperienced" pilots. :wink2:

Why are 2 necessary? 2 is barely more statistically significant than 1 with regard to the number of monthly flights. Until we know otherwise, latent defects can’t be ruled out, and if safety above all other considerations is the driving factor in aviation, most types should be grounded regularly until every unexplained incident is ruled pilot error..
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:38 am

ikramerica wrote:
Why are 2 necessary? 2 is barely more statistically significant than 1 with regard to the number of monthly flights.


Two very similar crashes of a recently introduced type, in a short period of time, that killed everyone on board appears to be the threshold that the World's aviation authorities agreed warranted a grounding. You've made it very obvious you disagree with that in other threads but most people (including those that matter most) see it as an eminently sensible approach.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:10 am

zanl188 wrote:
As those of us who who follow NTSB investigations know, NTSB conducts 3 press conferences at the site before they leave to go back to DC. They've conducted the initial press conference but not the second. I expect the second to be a whopper.


I don't expect another press conference until they release the initial report. The material is so explosive, and there are political constituencies that are going to scrutinize the report and push back hard, because they don't want to hear it and don't want to deal with it, so the NTSB is going to have to cross every T and dot every I and make the data bulletproof.

NTSB won't make any conclusions in the first report, just state the data, and it's going to be horrible, awful, heartbreaking, terrifying. That one already-dubious pilot completely screws up and won't let go is bad enough, but the actual details here are so vivid that those who read them are going to have nightmares for months, because it's very easy to put yourself in that cockpit.
Last edited by wjcandee on Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:24 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Guys, the accident sequence is pretty-clear,...

Make no mistake: This is a watershed moment and quite possibly a turning point. It isn't getting the publicity that the MAX stuff is, but only because this was an Atlas 767 flight carrying cargo rather than an Atlas 767 flight carrying troops. Very easily could have been.

... I think much more discussion isn't really too helpful, as we're not going to get much more that we can count on until more information is released.


I don't know who you are, or if you are 100% correct, but I'm happy buying what you're selling so I will just add a simple thank you.
And me.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:25 am

Do the 777 and 787 have priority buttons on the control columns since they are FBW? If not it might be a good idea to add them. It could be a good idea to combat against a scared rookie pilot or a senile old captain.

But I'll wait for the report before jumping in on the hysteria. If this is what really happened then it doesn't seem that different than other spatial disorientation or erroneous control input accidents. Now, if it is discovered that this FO was allowed to continue flying with known character flaws and insufficient flying ability then that's a different story. Affirmative action has no place in the flight deck. You either have the skills or you don't.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:40 am

impilot wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
The moment the picture got published of the first officer all the rumors started on every aviation related site. His mistakes led to the crash. He sued his employer. He had pilots at his old airline that hated him. You people spreading this racism should be ashamed of yourselves.


Stop playing the race card. His previous job issues weren’t related to his race, but his performance (or lack thereof). I’m sure in due time it will come out in more official places than a.net.
If he had a bad reputation then why was he hired?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:25 pm

RickNRoll wrote:
impilot wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
The moment the picture got published of the first officer all the rumors started on every aviation related site. His mistakes led to the crash. He sued his employer. He had pilots at his old airline that hated him. You people spreading this racism should be ashamed of yourselves.


Stop playing the race card. His previous job issues weren’t related to his race, but his performance (or lack thereof). I’m sure in due time it will come out in more official places than a.net.
If he had a bad reputation then why was he hired?


Because they needed pilots and wouldn’t pay the going wage for good ones. Because employers can’t get real references due to fear of lawsuits. It’s a horrible problem not being able to call a former chief pilot for a recommendation,
 
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CALTECH
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:31 pm

impilot wrote:
Stop playing the race card. His previous job issues weren’t related to his race, but his performance (or lack thereof). I’m sure in due time it will come out in more official places than a.net.


Pointing out the facts to a certain element of posters here on A.Net will trigger them. They believe everything is racist, rather than the facts if they can make that connection. They might just be the racists themselves, bringing it up whenever they can. They have to play it to convince others that they are not really the racists.

AF 447 was also pilot error after the incident, some of the crew were vilified for not following procedures, kinda like what has happened recently with the 767 and 737MAX8s. Do not remember when there were statements made about the AF 447 right seater Mr. Bonin, do not remember these same characters screaming racism back then.

Sad so many pilot errors have happened.

In the end, aircraft crashes that happen because of pilot error do not care what race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability, or age the flight crew is made of.
The gun is a precious Symbol of Freedom
Criminals are the deadly cancer on American society
Those who believe otherwise are consumed by an ideology
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Whiplash6
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:30 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:42 pm

RickNRoll wrote:
impilot wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
The moment that he picture got published of the first officer all the rumors started on every aviation related site. His mistakes led to the crash. He sued his employer. He had pilots at his old airline that hated him. You people spreading this racism should be ashamed of yourselves.


Stop playing the race card. His previous job issues weren’t related to his race, but his performance (or lack thereof). I’m sure in due time it will come out in more official places than a.net.
If he had a bad reputation then why was he hired?


Because turnover is so rapid at Atlas they hire whatever is willing to show up to class. The COO and VP of Flight Ops care only about one thing, and that is putting warm bodies in seats while keeping the wages and morale as low as possible. In the eyes of those two guys, all they care about is if you have the FAA certificates. What they don’t care about is the caliber of pilot that you are, because the jets keep moving one way or another.
 
glideslope900
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:08 pm

wjcandee wrote:
zanl188 wrote:
As those of us who who follow NTSB investigations know, NTSB conducts 3 press conferences at the site before they leave to go back to DC. They've conducted the initial press conference but not the second. I expect the second to be a whopper.


I don't expect another press conference until they release the initial report. The material is so explosive, and there are political constituencies that are going to scrutinize the report and push back hard, because they don't want to hear it and don't want to deal with it, so the NTSB is going to have to cross every T and dot every I and make the data bulletproof.

NTSB won't make any conclusions in the first report, just state the data, and it's going to be horrible, awful, heartbreaking, terrifying. That one already-dubious pilot completely screws up and won't let go is bad enough, but the actual details here are so vivid that those who read them are going to have nightmares for months, because it's very easy to put yourself in that cockpit.


How do you know? Have you read the CVR transcript?
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7672
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:32 pm

Whiplash6 wrote:
Because turnover is so rapid at Atlas they hire whatever is willing to show up to class. The COO and VP of Flight Ops care only about one thing, and that is putting warm bodies in seats while keeping the wages and morale as low as possible. In the eyes of those two guys, all they care about is if you have the FAA certificates. What they don’t care about is the caliber of pilot that you are, because the jets keep moving one way or another.


Until one doesn't make it to an airport...

And now they're adding another 20 planes for Amazon? (Just because it's at Southern shouldn't matter if the standards are the same.)

Maybe the FAA ought to put the brakes on Atlas's growth until it can show that it can operate safely. Like they did to ValuJet.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1048
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:37 pm

glideslope900 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
zanl188 wrote:
As those of us who who follow NTSB investigations know, NTSB conducts 3 press conferences at the site before they leave to go back to DC. They've conducted the initial press conference but not the second. I expect the second to be a whopper.


I don't expect another press conference until they release the initial report. The material is so explosive, and there are political constituencies that are going to scrutinize the report and push back hard, because they don't want to hear it and don't want to deal with it, so the NTSB is going to have to cross every T and dot every I and make the data bulletproof.

NTSB won't make any conclusions in the first report, just state the data, and it's going to be horrible, awful, heartbreaking, terrifying. That one already-dubious pilot completely screws up and won't let go is bad enough, but the actual details here are so vivid that those who read them are going to have nightmares for months, because it's very easy to put yourself in that cockpit.


How do you know? Have you read the CVR transcript?

Since all of his posts are incredibly vague yet push the reader to a specific direction, I can only assume that wjcandee is part of the investigation team with access to all data. Or he's pushing a political agenda and has been making up b******* for 34 thread pages.
 
N212R
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:46 pm

wjcandee wrote:
I don't expect another press conference until they release the initial report. The material is so explosive, and there are political constituencies that are going to scrutinize the report and push back hard, because they don't want to hear it and don't want to deal with it, so the NTSB is going to have to cross every T and dot every I and make the data bulletproof.

NTSB won't make any conclusions in the first report, just state the data, and it's going to be horrible, awful, heartbreaking, terrifying. That one already-dubious pilot completely screws up and won't let go is bad enough, but the actual details here are so vivid that those who read them are going to have nightmares for months, because it's very easy to put yourself in that cockpit.


Oh, the hyperbole! You should write trailers for the horror film industry. What ever happened to just the facts?
 
zanl188
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:03 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Since all of his posts are incredibly vague yet push the reader to a specific direction, I can only assume that wjcandee is part of the investigation team with access to all data. Or he's pushing a political agenda and has been making up b******* for 34 thread pages.


A great way to lose “party to the investigation” status is to talk about it in a public forum.
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
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SuperGee
Posts: 82
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:27 pm

Some info on and photos of Captain Sean Archuleta's last ride home. May he and the other pilots RIP. United's handling of this has been truly impressive.

https://thepilotwifelife.com/the-last-l ... ith-honor/

https://thepilotwifelife.com/united-air ... at-vacant/

https://thepilotwifelife.com/photo-of-t ... mpty-seat/
 
SwissCanuck
Posts: 134
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:06 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:59 am

SuperGee wrote:
Some info on and photos of Captain Sean Archuleta's last ride home. May he and the other pilots RIP. United's handling of this has been truly impressive.

https://thepilotwifelife.com/the-last-l ... ith-honor/

https://thepilotwifelife.com/united-air ... at-vacant/

https://thepilotwifelife.com/photo-of-t ... mpty-seat/


Who's cutting onions...

Very classy of United. Someone with a heart spoke up and got this done. Bravo to them.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4209
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:58 pm

SuperGee wrote:
Some info on and photos of Captain Sean Archuleta's last ride home. May he and the other pilots RIP. United's handling of this has been truly impressive.

https://thepilotwifelife.com/the-last-l ... ith-honor/

https://thepilotwifelife.com/united-air ... at-vacant/

https://thepilotwifelife.com/photo-of-t ... mpty-seat/


It takes alot to get my eyes watering, usually a really hot hot sauce does it. This however, really hit me in the feelers.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
777PHX
Posts: 962
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:36 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:31 pm

b747400erf wrote:
You people spreading this racism should be ashamed of yourselves.


This is just absurd. Calling his competency into question isn't the slightest bit racist.

I've heard the same rumors about him. He was fired from Mesa because he was having some sort of psychological/emotional problems. I hadn't heard the bit about him getting fired from Atlas so I'm not going to comment on it.
 
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Moose135
Posts: 3062
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:27 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:12 pm

777PHX wrote:
I've heard the same rumors about him. He was fired from Mesa because he was having some sort of psychological/emotional problems. I hadn't heard the bit about him getting fired from Atlas so I'm not going to comment on it.

I've been following this thread from the start, and find it quite interesting. It's considered insulting and inappropriate to suggest deliberate action by the flight crew as a potential cause, but it's fine to throw around rumors that one of the pilots was incompetent and shouldn't have been in the cockpit to start with.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
Moosefire
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:47 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:55 pm

Moose135 wrote:
777PHX wrote:
I've heard the same rumors about him. He was fired from Mesa because he was having some sort of psychological/emotional problems. I hadn't heard the bit about him getting fired from Atlas so I'm not going to comment on it.

I've been following this thread from the start, and find it quite interesting. It's considered insulting and inappropriate to suggest deliberate action by the flight crew as a potential cause, but it's fine to throw around rumors that one of the pilots was incompetent and shouldn't have been in the cockpit to start with.


Gotta disagree. Early on, sure. A month later there’s a clearer picture of what likely happened. Add to that it’s a small industry and this fella had a reputation, it’s not as if a rumor was simply started on this website and it’s being casually tossed around. People worked with him at the regionals and at atlas. It’s pertinent to the conversation.
MD-11F/C-17A Pilot
 
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AirlineCritic
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:07 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:35 am

I'm surprised that there are no news in this thread. When is the next release scheduled to come from NTSB?
 
zanl188
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:31 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
I'm surprised that there are no news in this thread. When is the next release scheduled to come from NTSB?


I’m surprised at the lack of news as well. I suspect NTSB is crossing the t’s and dotting the i’s prior to next press conference.
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wjcandee
Posts: 7672
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:31 pm

I don't think we're going to see much until a thorough preliminary report.
 
N212R
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:55 pm

zanl188 wrote:
I suspect NTSB is crossing the t’s and dotting the i’s prior to next press conference.


I suspect there are "interested" parties who would prefer nothing more than this pilot's career be quietly forgotten.

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