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wjcandee
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:09 pm

OldB747Driver wrote:


Nice find, although I think it smells a little.

Hard to believe that anybody who has actually heard the audio, as is asserted here, would disclose publicly. Only the folks in the transcript-creating listening crew would actually have heard it. An Atlas union rep would be among those, and there is likely some sharing of info with the airline to help it work on safety, but playing the actual tape? No. That makes me suspicious about the rest of this. It also seems to understate the role of the FO. I think it's close, but seems to put too much on captain. Also, aren't the GA paddles disabled until after the flaps are selected? So the bump would be after, not before, moving the handle, no? The general reminder that stuff can go sideways amazingly quickly is warranted, but I'm not sure the rest of what happened is exactly on all fours. It is very gentle to the FO. It's close, though. Just a bit of secondhand confusion, I think.
 
OldB747Driver
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:39 pm

IMHO, describing the actions (which at this point are about the only plausible scenario) fit the NTSB scenario adequately.

In describing the FO's and Captain's actions without drama, the idea that anyone certified to be at the controls of this type of aircraft would push the nose down to THAT extreme and the very basic/essential component of unusual attitude recovery, nose low BEGINS with the reduction of power, screams lack of [pick all that apply]: General Training, Monitoring through airline programs/Oversight, Adequate Background Check, Mental Competence, Upset Training Knowledge & Competence, CRM Training and Compliance.

As I said a month ago, while the official cause will be pilot error (rightfully so), the underlying symptom - that whoever allowed a person to be at the controls of a widebody jet whose reaction to whatever stimulus was FULL FORWARD INPUT to his control yolk should have never been there in the first place, and less so and yet as guilty, a Captain whose first thought was not to reduce the thust when he apparently recognized the nose was VERY low, or lacked the ability to communicate in a manner to which the FO would simply release his controls maybe should not have been placed in command. And sadly, the industry and companies that had both direct and indirect input into why this was so will simply move on to the next tragedy.

I know this harsh and I do not wish to speak poorly of the deceased, but unfortunately (as this completely avoidable tragedy demonstrates) we only improve ourselves and the system by being critical and calling the shots as they are and not as we wish they had been.

RIP crew of Atlas 3591 - I hope the lessons of your tragedy will help prevent such an occurrence from ever happening again.
 
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litz
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:56 pm

Outside of the normal release just after the accident (which we've had), it's not uncommon for an investigation to essentially "go dark" until it's complete or near complete, and the NTSB holds its hearing to reveal the findings.

There's usually no news unless there's something that needs rectifying ASAP (mechanical, training, etc).

That hearing could be 12-18 months after the accident.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun May 12, 2019 5:19 pm

litz wrote:
There's usually no news unless there's something that needs rectifying ASAP (mechanical, training, etc).


Which is a statement by itself as well...
 
Indy
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun May 12, 2019 8:00 pm

OldB747Driver wrote:


Just amazing. Is there a 767 pilot that can confirm whether or not the events described in the post are plausible. I am not a pilot and I have no idea if a go around switch exists and whether or not it is located where the post describes and whether or not you could accidentally hit it.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun May 12, 2019 8:24 pm

Pretty well covered upthread. Yes, there are go around switches on the throttles that select go around thrust.

GF
 
CaptCoolHand
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun May 12, 2019 11:02 pm

Indy wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:


Just amazing. Is there a 767 pilot that can confirm whether or not the events described in the post are plausible. I am not a pilot and I have no idea if a go around switch exists and whether or not it is located where the post describes and whether or not you could accidentally hit it.



I don’t fly the 767, but Yes it’s called a TOGA switch. It triggers the take off and go around mode for the plane.
12 hrs ago When I was doing my IOE we had to do a no auto throttle approach and instead of turning off the auto throttles I hit the TOGA. It was a surprise but an easy fix. Bottom line, when the plane isn’t doing what it’s supposed to reduce automation. Turn it all off. Fly the plane.
 
MD80Ttail
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue May 14, 2019 1:20 am

CaptCoolHand wrote:
Indy wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:


Just amazing. Is there a 767 pilot that can confirm whether or not the events described in the post are plausible. I am not a pilot and I have no idea if a go around switch exists and whether or not it is located where the post describes and whether or not you could accidentally hit it.



I don’t fly the 767, but Yes it’s called a TOGA switch. It triggers the take off and go around mode for the plane.
12 hrs ago When I was doing my IOE we had to do a no auto throttle approach and instead of turning off the auto throttles I hit the TOGA. It was a surprise but an easy fix. Bottom line, when the plane isn’t doing what it’s supposed to reduce automation. Turn it all off. Fly the plane.


BUT...what if you can’t fly the plane?. Too many pilots today lack basic airmanship skills. No doubt they have degraded.
 
Lrockeagle
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue May 14, 2019 1:58 am

MD80Ttail wrote:
CaptCoolHand wrote:
Indy wrote:

Just amazing. Is there a 767 pilot that can confirm whether or not the events described in the post are plausible. I am not a pilot and I have no idea if a go around switch exists and whether or not it is located where the post describes and whether or not you could accidentally hit it.



I don’t fly the 767, but Yes it’s called a TOGA switch. It triggers the take off and go around mode for the plane.
12 hrs ago When I was doing my IOE we had to do a no auto throttle approach and instead of turning off the auto throttles I hit the TOGA. It was a surprise but an easy fix. Bottom line, when the plane isn’t doing what it’s supposed to reduce automation. Turn it all off. Fly the plane.


BUT...what if you can’t fly the plane?. Too many pilots today lack basic airmanship skills. No doubt they have degraded.

What are you basing this on? What studies have shown this?
Lrockeagle
15 years ago

I got $20 says AA takes their 787's with GE powerplants. Just a hunch. Any takers?
 
freakyrat
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue May 14, 2019 1:58 am

MD80Ttail wrote:
CaptCoolHand wrote:
Indy wrote:

Just amazing. Is there a 767 pilot that can confirm whether or not the events described in the post are plausible. I am not a pilot and I have no idea if a go around switch exists and whether or not it is located where the post describes and whether or not you could accidentally hit it.



I don’t fly the 767, but Yes it’s called a TOGA switch. It triggers the take off and go around mode for the plane.
12 hrs ago When I was doing my IOE we had to do a no auto throttle approach and instead of turning off the auto throttles I hit the TOGA. It was a surprise but an easy fix. Bottom line, when the plane isn’t doing what it’s supposed to reduce automation. Turn it all off. Fly the plane.


BUT...what if you can’t fly the plane?. Too many pilots today lack basic airmanship skills. No doubt they have degraded.


You add in an early morning trip and a crew that may not be to brght eyed and bushy tailed and not paying close attention to what is happening and who overlooked basic CRM procedures. Also if you hear the engines accelerating it's got to be the thrust levers. I mean pull back on the thrust levers, throttles or whatever and no accident occurs.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue May 14, 2019 3:32 am

Indy wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:


Just amazing. Is there a 767 pilot that can confirm whether or not the events described in the post are plausible. I am not a pilot and I have no idea if a go around switch exists and whether or not it is located where the post describes and whether or not you could accidentally hit it.


The Go-Around Switches on the 757/767 are on the aft side of the throttle quadrant (they’re forward on the 777/787 and on both sides on the 767-400 and KC-46).

On the 767, you push them in and a bit up with your thumb. They aren’t a very big target. Knowing the geometry of the GA Switches and how you push then, I’m having trouble believing that one’s arm could accidentally hit them without also hitting the thrust levers themselves. I’m not sure I could do that if I tried.

Even if this did occur, didn’t the F/O figure out quickly what to do? You go click-click and click-click and actually fly the airplane. This is a skill that many pilots seem to lack.

The number of airplanes that fall out of the sky because of a simple malfunction or unintended action of the auto flight system is amazing. TK, OZ, maybe this. Whatever happened to flying the airplane?

The other thing suspect is the implication they could hear the trim motors. If the meant the moving trim wheels like the 737, then it’s a bogus report. The 767 trim wouldn’t be heard on the CVR. I’m not sure it would kick in automatically either as implied in the article.

To me, the authenticity of that report is inconclusive.
Last edited by BoeingGuy on Tue May 14, 2019 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue May 14, 2019 3:34 am

Lrockeagle wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
CaptCoolHand wrote:


I don’t fly the 767, but Yes it’s called a TOGA switch. It triggers the take off and go around mode for the plane.
12 hrs ago When I was doing my IOE we had to do a no auto throttle approach and instead of turning off the auto throttles I hit the TOGA. It was a surprise but an easy fix. Bottom line, when the plane isn’t doing what it’s supposed to reduce automation. Turn it all off. Fly the plane.


BUT...what if you can’t fly the plane?. Too many pilots today lack basic airmanship skills. No doubt they have degraded.

What are you basing this on? What studies have shown this?


What he said is completely accurate. In service reports and accidents show this. In the accidents I cited above and many others, pilots lacked even the simplest skills like monitoring their airspeed during approach or flying manually when needed.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue May 14, 2019 3:39 am

CaptCoolHand wrote:
Indy wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:


Just amazing. Is there a 767 pilot that can confirm whether or not the events described in the post are plausible. I am not a pilot and I have no idea if a go around switch exists and whether or not it is located where the post describes and whether or not you could accidentally hit it.



I don’t fly the 767, but Yes it’s called a TOGA switch. It triggers the take off and go around mode for the plane.
12 hrs ago When I was doing my IOE we had to do a no auto throttle approach and instead of turning off the auto throttles I hit the TOGA. It was a surprise but an easy fix. Bottom line, when the plane isn’t doing what it’s supposed to reduce automation. Turn it all off. Fly the plane.


Actually on the 767-200/-300 and 757, the TO/GA Switch doesn’t initiate takeoff thrust, only go-around. It’s actually called the GA Switches. You push the THR Switch on the MCP to engage the Autothrottle for takeoff.

The TO/GA Switch does initiate takeoff on the 767-400 and KC-46.
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue May 14, 2019 10:55 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
CaptCoolHand wrote:
Indy wrote:

Just amazing. Is there a 767 pilot that can confirm whether or not the events described in the post are plausible. I am not a pilot and I have no idea if a go around switch exists and whether or not it is located where the post describes and whether or not you could accidentally hit it.


I don’t fly the 767, but Yes it’s called a TOGA switch. It triggers the take off and go around mode for the plane.
12 hrs ago When I was doing my IOE we had to do a no auto throttle approach and instead of turning off the auto throttles I hit the TOGA. It was a surprise but an easy fix. Bottom line, when the plane isn’t doing what it’s supposed to reduce automation. Turn it all off. Fly the plane.


Actually on the 767-200/-300 and 757, the TO/GA Switch doesn’t initiate takeoff thrust, only go-around. It’s actually called the GA Switches. You push the THR Switch on the MCP to engage the Autothrottle for takeoff.

The TO/GA Switch does initiate takeoff on the 767-400 and KC-46.
BoeingGuy wrote:
Indy wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:


Just amazing. Is there a 767 pilot that can confirm whether or not the events described in the post are plausible. I am not a pilot and I have no idea if a go around switch exists and whether or not it is located where the post describes and whether or not you could accidentally hit it.


The Go-Around Switches on the 757/767 are on the aft side of the throttle quadrant (they’re forward on the 777/787 and on both sides on the 767-400 and KC-46).

On the 767, you push them in and a bit up with your thumb. They aren’t a very big target. Knowing the geometry of the GA Switches and how you push then, I’m having trouble believing that one’s arm could accidentally hit them without also hitting the thrust levers themselves. I’m not sure I could do that if I tried.

Even if this did occur, didn’t the F/O figure out quickly what to do? You go click-click and click-click and actually fly the airplane. This is a skill that many pilots seem to lack.

The number of airplanes that fall out of the sky because of a simple malfunction or unintended action of the auto flight system is amazing. TK, OZ, maybe this. Whatever happened to flying the airplane?

The other thing suspect is the implication they could hear the trim motors. If the meant the moving trim wheels like the 737, then it’s a bogus report. The 767 trim wouldn’t be heard on the CVR. I’m not sure it would kick in automatically either as implied in the article.

To me, the authenticity of that report is inconclusive.


I don’t buy this GA switch thing either. It would take a massively incompetent crew. I have about 12K hrs on 757/767 which have identical setup (sans the 764). Last 16 years as an instructor and a lot of line training. Never seen an issue. A couple of accidental GA selections (iso A/T off). But never an issue.
 
flightlevel41
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue May 14, 2019 11:35 am

If the synopsis is true, reads a little like China Airlines Flight 140.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Airlines_Flight_140
 
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OA940
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue May 14, 2019 11:47 am

Ok you can all judge the pilots very easily while sitting on your chairs and typing away at your computers, but in the cockpit it's a vastly different environment and it's easier to make a mistake and miss it. The whole ''pilot skill has degraded'' BS is just that. There have been much more severe cases of pilot error in the past, and considering the number of flights has increased sharply and the number of accidents has gone down significantly I'd say we're okay.

Also I'm not a pilot, but the whole go-around switch story seems very one-in-a-billion and extremely far-fetched. I'm not suggesting it's not a possibility (we've seen crazier things happen) but considering it came from an unofficial source (which is also completely unrelated to aviation) I'd suggest we take it with a grain of salt.
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highflier92660
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue May 14, 2019 12:49 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Indy wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:


Just amazing. Is there a 767 pilot that can confirm whether or not the events described in the post are plausible. I am not a pilot and I have no idea if a go around switch exists and whether or not it is located where the post describes and whether or not you could accidentally hit it.


The Go-Around Switches on the 757/767 are on the aft side of the throttle quadrant (they’re forward on the 777/787 and on both sides on the 767-400 and KC-46).

On the 767, you push them in and a bit up with your thumb. They aren’t a very big target. Knowing the geometry of the GA Switches and how you push then, I’m having trouble believing that one’s arm could accidentally hit them without also hitting the thrust levers themselves. I’m not sure I could do that if I tried.

Even if this did occur, didn’t the F/O figure out quickly what to do? You go click-click and click-click and actually fly the airplane. This is a skill that many pilots seem to lack.

The number of airplanes that fall out of the sky because of a simple malfunction or unintended action of the auto flight system is amazing. TK, OZ, maybe this. Whatever happened to flying the airplane?

The other thing suspect is the implication they could hear the trim motors. If the meant the moving trim wheels like the 737, then it’s a bogus report. The 767 trim wouldn’t be heard on the CVR. I’m not sure it would kick in automatically either as implied in the article.

To me, the authenticity of that report is inconclusive.



What is frustrating are the increasingly implausible explanations given as to how the F/O pitched the aircraft downward at 49-degrees at maximum thrust, did not then quickly retard the thrust levers to flight idle and not relinquish control to the captain if, in-fact, he experienced spatial disorientation.

Equally troubling is the theory that the captain inadvertently engaged the TOGA switches like a MLB pitcher throwing an underhand sidewinder to home plate. A retired airline pilot I spoke with put it succinctly: hogwash. The last time there was a demonstration of that degree of nimble elasticity was nearly a half-centuy ago when Richard Nixon's secretary somehow erased 18 1/2 minutes worth of tape.
 
glideslope900
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:18 am

[*]

Has there been any more info on this? CVR transcript would be nice.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:29 am

I imagine it is just a matter of time before the report is released. They have been very quiet so I don't think there are any doubts about what happened.
 
MO11
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:36 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I imagine it is just a matter of time before the report is released. They have been very quiet so I don't think there are any doubts about what happened.


No, the docket isn't even open yet. We pretty much know what happened to the Southwest 737-700 in April 2018, but the report isn't complete.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:40 am

MO11 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I imagine it is just a matter of time before the report is released. They have been very quiet so I don't think there are any doubts about what happened.


No, the docket isn't even open yet. We pretty much know what happened to the Southwest 737-700 in April 2018, but the report isn't complete.


Do you understand what a "matter of time" means? It means an indefinite time period.
 
Natflyer
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:34 am

Well, the silence is deafening...
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:37 am

is there any safety catch/pawl (not know how on english) for TOGA button?
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:41 am

Armadillo1 wrote:
is there any safety catch/pawl (not know how on english) for TOGA button?


No. It is where it has been on every 757/767 since 1982/3. Not been an issue hitherto...
 
Natflyer
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:24 am

glideslope900 wrote:
[*]

Has there been any more info on this? CVR transcript would be nice.


Exactly how would that be “nice”? This beats your idiotic comment on another thread.
 
glideslope900
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:02 pm

Natflyer wrote:
glideslope900 wrote:
[*]

Has there been any more info on this? CVR transcript would be nice.


Exactly how would that be “nice”? This beats your idiotic comment on another thread.


Calm down.

As a pilot, it would be nice to know exactly what happened here. You learn a lot from others mistakes.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:24 am

Checking back... no news?
 
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PW100
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:00 pm

It seems "the pilot did it gang" are fully occupied with / concentrating on the MAX grounding thread only . . .

/sarcasm
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MO11
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:04 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
Checking back... no news?


It has only been 5 months....
 
Usmcflyer
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:57 pm

I’ve been visiting this thread for the past 9 months looking for some definitive info. What’s the deal?
 
2175301
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:56 pm

Usmcflyer wrote:
I’ve been visiting this thread for the past 9 months looking for some definitive info. What’s the deal?


The deal is that it typically takes 12-18 months before the final crash report is released. There is a lot (and I mean "A LOT") of work that has to be done - with tons of cross checking. The process is deliberately slow to ensure that all adequate testing is completed, all factors considered, etc. This has proven over and over to be far more effective at identifying causes and issues than using quicker processes.

Please be patient and allow the process to run its normal course without undue time pressure.

Have a great day,
 
jetmatt777
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:08 pm

Usmcflyer wrote:
I’ve been visiting this thread for the past 9 months looking for some definitive info. What’s the deal?


I think if you read between the lines you can identify vaguely what happened. wjcandee provides his own opinion, and I don't disagree with his findings and/or assumptions.

We can pretty much rule out an equipment failure since there have not been any AD's or service bulletins published. If the investigation was going along an equipment malfunction road, we would see some kind of preliminary safety bulletins for inspections or modifications to procedures. We have seen none.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:50 pm

Rumor at Atlas has it the NTSB will release the public docket of factual information by year’s end. Might include FDR/CVR transcriptions, interviews.
 
adamant365
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:16 pm

The public docket was released today, so those rumors would be correct. Very interesting factual information.
 
 
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:00 pm

Relevant parts of the transcript, before this things seemed relatively normal, despite a hurried descent, and the FO's instruments being apparently temporarily disable earlier and then started working again. The FO is the PF.

12:38:43.6
CAM-2 (oh)
12:38:44.0
CAM [Sound similar to a mechanical click.]
12:38:45.0
CAM-2 woah. [Spoken in elevated voice.]
12:38:45.9
CAM-2 (where's) my speed my speed [Spoken in elevated
voice.]
12:38:46.9
CAM [Sound similar to louder mechanical click.]
12:38:47.3
RDO-1 okay.
12:38:47.9
CAM [Sound similar to multiple random thumping noises.]
12:38:48.0
HOT-2 we're stalling. [Spoken in elevated voice.]
12:38:50.5
HOT-2 stall. [Exclaimed.]
12:38:51.9
HOT-? #.
12:38:52.3
HOT-2 oh Lord have mercy myself. [Spoken in elevated
voice.]
12:38:53.3
CAM [Sound similar to multiple random thumping noises.]
12:38:53.9
HOT-2 Lord have mercy. [Exclaimed.]
12:38:55.1
HOT-2 @Capt. [Spoken in elevated voice.]
12:38:55.7
HOT-1 what's goin' on?
12:38:56.0
HOT-2 (Lord)– [Spoken in elevated voice.]
12:38:56.3
CAM [Sound of 1000 Hz series of beeps with
approximately .25 second spacing begin. Group could
not determine if audible sound lasted until end of
recording.] 4
12:38:56.4
HOT-2 @Capt. [Spoken in elevated voice.]
12:38:56.6
CAM-3 what's goin' on? [Spoken in an elevated voice.]
12:38:56.8
HOT-? [Sound of rapid breathing.]
12:38:57.4
HOT-2 @Capt12:38:58.1
CAM [Sound of quick series of four beeps at 1200 Hz.] 5
12:38:58.9
CAM [Sound of longer duration pulse tone about 1000 Hz,
similar to Siren. Group could not determine if audible
sounds lasted until end of recording.] 6
12:38:59.4
CAM-3 * pull up. [Shouted.]
12:39:00.9
HOT-2 [Unintelligible shout.]
12:39:02.0
HOT-? (oh God). [Shouted.]
12:39:02.0
HOT-2 Lord * * you have my soul. [Shouted.]
1239:03.9 END OF TRANSCRIPT
END OF RECORDING
Last edited by AirlineCritic on Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:00 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:

That sucks, especially the last few pages.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:05 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
Relevant parts of the transcript, before this things seemed relatively normal, despite a hurried descent, and the FO's instruments being apparently temporarily disable earlier and then started working again. The FO is the PF.

It'd be interesting to know what the mechanical clicks were.

It's interesting that the crew transmitted "OK" on the radio between the concern about speed then "we're stalling".
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:08 pm

Just before the excerpt that I provided above from the transcript, there was a "click" at 12:38:31.1, heard on the CVR tape. The CVR soundspectrum study is here:
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/63000-63499 ... 631201.pdf

It theorizes that the click may have been the GA switch. The conclusion:

In summary, the clicking noise shares some characteristics of the exemplar GA button
activation, specifically the release portion of an exemplar GA button activation, however,
it cannot be conclusively determined if it is the same sound due to the degraded quality
of the CAM channel recording at the time of the sound detection (12:38:31.1 CST).
 
cdark
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:59 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:15 pm

In summary:

Click, click. Click, click. “My aircraft”.

Would’ve saved 3 people’s lives.
 
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AirlineCritic
Posts: 1765
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:07 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:22 pm

The confusion part of the transcript lasts just 19 seconds and they have impacted the ground. Horrible to think how fast things can go wrong.

And if one counts from the click sound, it is 31 seconds.

The Captain was, I guess, in charge of radio communications as PNF. Right after the click sound he had an exchange with the ATC, including the final "OK" response that was said only 13 seconds before impact.

The only verbal interaction the captain has in the cockpit during this sequence is the "what's goin' on?" said at 12:38:55.7 or 6.5s from impact.

I'm not sure I fully understand what happened here, but FO gets confused/disoriented/instrument failure, and captain doesn't take control in the literally few seconds where the situation could be saved?

Continuing to read further.
Last edited by AirlineCritic on Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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AirlineCritic
Posts: 1765
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:07 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:27 pm

FDR analysis link:
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/63000-63499 ... 631198.pdf

Again, the most relevant part:

At 12:38:31 the autoflight system entered go around mode, the engines began advancing to go around thrust setting, the control column, which had been neutral, moved slightly aft and elevator deflected up, the aircraft pitch began to increase, and altitude stopped descending and began to climb.

At 12:38:37 the speedbrake handle was retracted and the engines approached their
commanded go around power settings.

At 12:38:40 a Master Caution was recorded along with Autopilot Caution. The control column was had moved to be deflected forward at the time, pitch was decreasing, and airspeed began to accelerate rapidly from 240 knots. Autoflight systems remained in Go Around modes and the aircraft continued a shallow climb for a short time before entering a rapid descent. Control column remained deflected forward for the next 10 seconds.

At 12:38:46 the throttles were brought to idle for about 2 seconds then readvanced to the previous power setting. At this point the aircraft pitch was rapidly decreasing and vertical g became negative for nearly 11 seconds.

At 12:38:47 a split between left and right elevators was noted ranging between 2 to 7 degrees split until 12:38:57. The aircraft Overspeed and 3 MCP altitude, speed, and heading parameters were recorded as superframe parameters, meaning they were recorded once every 64 seconds. It is impossible to know where changes to these parameters occurred other than at their recorded points. The last points of these parameters were recorded slightly under one minute prior to the end of the recording.

Master Warning alerts were recorded at 12:38:55 with airspeed increasing beyond 350 knots.

At 12:38:57, altitude crossed through 3,000 ft and the autothrottle switched out of go around mode and engine TRA began to decrease.

12:38:58 with altitude at about 2,000 ft, the control column moved to the aft stop until the end of the recording. Aircraft pitch was about 50 degrees nose down. Vertical acceleration went from 0 g to 4.2 g and pitch increased rapidly until its final recorded position of 16 degrees nose down at 12:39:03. The final recorded airspeed was 433.5 kts.
 
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N14AZ
Posts: 4140
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:28 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
Just before the excerpt that I provided above from the transcript, there was a "click" at 12:38:31.1, heard on the CVR tape. The CVR soundspectrum study is here:
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/63000-63499 ... 631201.pdf

It theorizes that the click may have been the GA switch. The conclusion:

In summary, the clicking noise shares some characteristics of the exemplar GA button
activation, specifically the release portion of an exemplar GA button activation, however,
it cannot be conclusively determined if it is the same sound due to the degraded quality
of the CAM channel recording at the time of the sound detection (12:38:31.1 CST).

But why would pushing the GA-button lead to a stall?
 
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AirlineCritic
Posts: 1765
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:07 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:32 pm

N14AZ wrote:
But why would pushing the GA-button lead to a stall?


It looks like the FO thought they were in a stall. In reality he flew the aircraft into a full power, overspeed descent into ground.

But I'll keep reading.
 
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AirlineCritic
Posts: 1765
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:07 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:41 pm

Was the GA mode switch toggle (if that's now what it was) intentional or accidental?
 
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SierraPacific
Posts: 435
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:44 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
Was the GA mode switch toggle (if that's now what it was) intentional or accidental?


Accidental I believe
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6011
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:45 pm

N14AZ wrote:
AirlineCritic wrote:
Just before the excerpt that I provided above from the transcript, there was a "click" at 12:38:31.1, heard on the CVR tape. The CVR soundspectrum study is here:
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/63000-63499 ... 631201.pdf

It theorizes that the click may have been the GA switch. The conclusion:

In summary, the clicking noise shares some characteristics of the exemplar GA button
activation, specifically the release portion of an exemplar GA button activation, however,
it cannot be conclusively determined if it is the same sound due to the degraded quality
of the CAM channel recording at the time of the sound detection (12:38:31.1 CST).

But why would pushing the GA-button lead to a stall?


It doesn’t! The PF THOUGHT it was stalling and took an extreme effort to employ upset/stall recovery by overpowering the A/P and stuffing the nose 49 degrees AND
 
mysfit
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:16 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:23 pm

Trying to understand.

The plane was in go around with increasing speed. The PF thought they were in a stall so pitched down? Basically flying the aircraft into the ground at high speed?

And the jumpseater was emphatically calling out pull up?
Jaysus
Last edited by mysfit on Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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