wjcandee
Posts: 7663
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:09 pm

OldB747Driver wrote:


Nice find, although I think it smells a little.

Hard to believe that anybody who has actually heard the audio, as is asserted here, would disclose publicly. Only the folks in the transcript-creating listening crew would actually have heard it. An Atlas union rep would be among those, and there is likely some sharing of info with the airline to help it work on safety, but playing the actual tape? No. That makes me suspicious about the rest of this. It also seems to understate the role of the FO. I think it's close, but seems to put too much on captain. Also, aren't the GA paddles disabled until after the flaps are selected? So the bump would be after, not before, moving the handle, no? The general reminder that stuff can go sideways amazingly quickly is warranted, but I'm not sure the rest of what happened is exactly on all fours. It is very gentle to the FO. It's close, though. Just a bit of secondhand confusion, I think.
 
OldB747Driver
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:40 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:39 pm

IMHO, describing the actions (which at this point are about the only plausible scenario) fit the NTSB scenario adequately.

In describing the FO's and Captain's actions without drama, the idea that anyone certified to be at the controls of this type of aircraft would push the nose down to THAT extreme and the very basic/essential component of unusual attitude recovery, nose low BEGINS with the reduction of power, screams lack of [pick all that apply]: General Training, Monitoring through airline programs/Oversight, Adequate Background Check, Mental Competence, Upset Training Knowledge & Competence, CRM Training and Compliance.

As I said a month ago, while the official cause will be pilot error (rightfully so), the underlying symptom - that whoever allowed a person to be at the controls of a widebody jet whose reaction to whatever stimulus was FULL FORWARD INPUT to his control yolk should have never been there in the first place, and less so and yet as guilty, a Captain whose first thought was not to reduce the thust when he apparently recognized the nose was VERY low, or lacked the ability to communicate in a manner to which the FO would simply release his controls maybe should not have been placed in command. And sadly, the industry and companies that had both direct and indirect input into why this was so will simply move on to the next tragedy.

I know this harsh and I do not wish to speak poorly of the deceased, but unfortunately (as this completely avoidable tragedy demonstrates) we only improve ourselves and the system by being critical and calling the shots as they are and not as we wish they had been.

RIP crew of Atlas 3591 - I hope the lessons of your tragedy will help prevent such an occurrence from ever happening again.
 
User avatar
litz
Posts: 2267
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:56 pm

Outside of the normal release just after the accident (which we've had), it's not uncommon for an investigation to essentially "go dark" until it's complete or near complete, and the NTSB holds its hearing to reveal the findings.

There's usually no news unless there's something that needs rectifying ASAP (mechanical, training, etc).

That hearing could be 12-18 months after the accident.
 
User avatar
AirlineCritic
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:07 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun May 12, 2019 5:19 pm

litz wrote:
There's usually no news unless there's something that needs rectifying ASAP (mechanical, training, etc).


Which is a statement by itself as well...
 
Indy
Posts: 4840
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun May 12, 2019 8:00 pm

OldB747Driver wrote:


Just amazing. Is there a 767 pilot that can confirm whether or not the events described in the post are plausible. I am not a pilot and I have no idea if a go around switch exists and whether or not it is located where the post describes and whether or not you could accidentally hit it.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3129
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun May 12, 2019 8:24 pm

Pretty well covered upthread. Yes, there are go around switches on the throttles that select go around thrust.

GF
 
CaptCoolHand
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:24 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sun May 12, 2019 11:02 pm

Indy wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:


Just amazing. Is there a 767 pilot that can confirm whether or not the events described in the post are plausible. I am not a pilot and I have no idea if a go around switch exists and whether or not it is located where the post describes and whether or not you could accidentally hit it.



I don’t fly the 767, but Yes it’s called a TOGA switch. It triggers the take off and go around mode for the plane.
12 hrs ago When I was doing my IOE we had to do a no auto throttle approach and instead of turning off the auto throttles I hit the TOGA. It was a surprise but an easy fix. Bottom line, when the plane isn’t doing what it’s supposed to reduce automation. Turn it all off. Fly the plane.
 
MD80Ttail
Posts: 159
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:22 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue May 14, 2019 1:20 am

CaptCoolHand wrote:
Indy wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:


Just amazing. Is there a 767 pilot that can confirm whether or not the events described in the post are plausible. I am not a pilot and I have no idea if a go around switch exists and whether or not it is located where the post describes and whether or not you could accidentally hit it.



I don’t fly the 767, but Yes it’s called a TOGA switch. It triggers the take off and go around mode for the plane.
12 hrs ago When I was doing my IOE we had to do a no auto throttle approach and instead of turning off the auto throttles I hit the TOGA. It was a surprise but an easy fix. Bottom line, when the plane isn’t doing what it’s supposed to reduce automation. Turn it all off. Fly the plane.


BUT...what if you can’t fly the plane?. Too many pilots today lack basic airmanship skills. No doubt they have degraded.
 
Lrockeagle
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:40 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue May 14, 2019 1:58 am

MD80Ttail wrote:
CaptCoolHand wrote:
Indy wrote:

Just amazing. Is there a 767 pilot that can confirm whether or not the events described in the post are plausible. I am not a pilot and I have no idea if a go around switch exists and whether or not it is located where the post describes and whether or not you could accidentally hit it.



I don’t fly the 767, but Yes it’s called a TOGA switch. It triggers the take off and go around mode for the plane.
12 hrs ago When I was doing my IOE we had to do a no auto throttle approach and instead of turning off the auto throttles I hit the TOGA. It was a surprise but an easy fix. Bottom line, when the plane isn’t doing what it’s supposed to reduce automation. Turn it all off. Fly the plane.


BUT...what if you can’t fly the plane?. Too many pilots today lack basic airmanship skills. No doubt they have degraded.

What are you basing this on? What studies have shown this?
Lrockeagle
14 years ago

I got $20 says AA takes their 787's with GE powerplants. Just a hunch. Any takers?
 
freakyrat
Posts: 1653
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue May 14, 2019 1:58 am

MD80Ttail wrote:
CaptCoolHand wrote:
Indy wrote:

Just amazing. Is there a 767 pilot that can confirm whether or not the events described in the post are plausible. I am not a pilot and I have no idea if a go around switch exists and whether or not it is located where the post describes and whether or not you could accidentally hit it.



I don’t fly the 767, but Yes it’s called a TOGA switch. It triggers the take off and go around mode for the plane.
12 hrs ago When I was doing my IOE we had to do a no auto throttle approach and instead of turning off the auto throttles I hit the TOGA. It was a surprise but an easy fix. Bottom line, when the plane isn’t doing what it’s supposed to reduce automation. Turn it all off. Fly the plane.


BUT...what if you can’t fly the plane?. Too many pilots today lack basic airmanship skills. No doubt they have degraded.


You add in an early morning trip and a crew that may not be to brght eyed and bushy tailed and not paying close attention to what is happening and who overlooked basic CRM procedures. Also if you hear the engines accelerating it's got to be the thrust levers. I mean pull back on the thrust levers, throttles or whatever and no accident occurs.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6243
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue May 14, 2019 3:32 am

Indy wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:


Just amazing. Is there a 767 pilot that can confirm whether or not the events described in the post are plausible. I am not a pilot and I have no idea if a go around switch exists and whether or not it is located where the post describes and whether or not you could accidentally hit it.


The Go-Around Switches on the 757/767 are on the aft side of the throttle quadrant (they’re forward on the 777/787 and on both sides on the 767-400 and KC-46).

On the 767, you push them in and a bit up with your thumb. They aren’t a very big target. Knowing the geometry of the GA Switches and how you push then, I’m having trouble believing that one’s arm could accidentally hit them without also hitting the thrust levers themselves. I’m not sure I could do that if I tried.

Even if this did occur, didn’t the F/O figure out quickly what to do? You go click-click and click-click and actually fly the airplane. This is a skill that many pilots seem to lack.

The number of airplanes that fall out of the sky because of a simple malfunction or unintended action of the auto flight system is amazing. TK, OZ, maybe this. Whatever happened to flying the airplane?

The other thing suspect is the implication they could hear the trim motors. If the meant the moving trim wheels like the 737, then it’s a bogus report. The 767 trim wouldn’t be heard on the CVR. I’m not sure it would kick in automatically either as implied in the article.

To me, the authenticity of that report is inconclusive.
Last edited by BoeingGuy on Tue May 14, 2019 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6243
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue May 14, 2019 3:32 am

freakyrat wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
CaptCoolHand wrote:


I don’t fly the 767, but Yes it’s called a TOGA switch. It triggers the take off and go around mode for the plane.
12 hrs ago When I was doing my IOE we had to do a no auto throttle approach and instead of turning off the auto throttles I hit the TOGA. It was a surprise but an easy fix. Bottom line, when the plane isn’t doing what it’s supposed to reduce automation. Turn it all off. Fly the plane.


BUT...what if you can’t fly the plane?. Too many pilots today lack basic airmanship skills. No doubt they have degraded.


You add in an early morning trip and a crew that may not be to brght eyed and bushy tailed and not paying close attention to what is happening and who overlooked basic CRM procedures. Also if you hear the engines accelerating it's got to be the thrust levers. I mean pull back on the thrust levers, throttles or whatever and no accident occurs.


Delete.
Last edited by BoeingGuy on Tue May 14, 2019 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6243
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue May 14, 2019 3:34 am

Lrockeagle wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
CaptCoolHand wrote:


I don’t fly the 767, but Yes it’s called a TOGA switch. It triggers the take off and go around mode for the plane.
12 hrs ago When I was doing my IOE we had to do a no auto throttle approach and instead of turning off the auto throttles I hit the TOGA. It was a surprise but an easy fix. Bottom line, when the plane isn’t doing what it’s supposed to reduce automation. Turn it all off. Fly the plane.


BUT...what if you can’t fly the plane?. Too many pilots today lack basic airmanship skills. No doubt they have degraded.

What are you basing this on? What studies have shown this?


What he said is completely accurate. In service reports and accidents show this. In the accidents I cited above and many others, pilots lacked even the simplest skills like monitoring their airspeed during approach or flying manually when needed.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6243
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue May 14, 2019 3:39 am

CaptCoolHand wrote:
Indy wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:


Just amazing. Is there a 767 pilot that can confirm whether or not the events described in the post are plausible. I am not a pilot and I have no idea if a go around switch exists and whether or not it is located where the post describes and whether or not you could accidentally hit it.



I don’t fly the 767, but Yes it’s called a TOGA switch. It triggers the take off and go around mode for the plane.
12 hrs ago When I was doing my IOE we had to do a no auto throttle approach and instead of turning off the auto throttles I hit the TOGA. It was a surprise but an easy fix. Bottom line, when the plane isn’t doing what it’s supposed to reduce automation. Turn it all off. Fly the plane.


Actually on the 767-200/-300 and 757, the TO/GA Switch doesn’t initiate takeoff thrust, only go-around. It’s actually called the GA Switches. You push the THR Switch on the MCP to engage the Autothrottle for takeoff.

The TO/GA Switch does initiate takeoff on the 767-400 and KC-46.
 
arcticcruiser
Posts: 353
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:16 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue May 14, 2019 10:55 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
CaptCoolHand wrote:
Indy wrote:

Just amazing. Is there a 767 pilot that can confirm whether or not the events described in the post are plausible. I am not a pilot and I have no idea if a go around switch exists and whether or not it is located where the post describes and whether or not you could accidentally hit it.


I don’t fly the 767, but Yes it’s called a TOGA switch. It triggers the take off and go around mode for the plane.
12 hrs ago When I was doing my IOE we had to do a no auto throttle approach and instead of turning off the auto throttles I hit the TOGA. It was a surprise but an easy fix. Bottom line, when the plane isn’t doing what it’s supposed to reduce automation. Turn it all off. Fly the plane.


Actually on the 767-200/-300 and 757, the TO/GA Switch doesn’t initiate takeoff thrust, only go-around. It’s actually called the GA Switches. You push the THR Switch on the MCP to engage the Autothrottle for takeoff.

The TO/GA Switch does initiate takeoff on the 767-400 and KC-46.
BoeingGuy wrote:
Indy wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:


Just amazing. Is there a 767 pilot that can confirm whether or not the events described in the post are plausible. I am not a pilot and I have no idea if a go around switch exists and whether or not it is located where the post describes and whether or not you could accidentally hit it.


The Go-Around Switches on the 757/767 are on the aft side of the throttle quadrant (they’re forward on the 777/787 and on both sides on the 767-400 and KC-46).

On the 767, you push them in and a bit up with your thumb. They aren’t a very big target. Knowing the geometry of the GA Switches and how you push then, I’m having trouble believing that one’s arm could accidentally hit them without also hitting the thrust levers themselves. I’m not sure I could do that if I tried.

Even if this did occur, didn’t the F/O figure out quickly what to do? You go click-click and click-click and actually fly the airplane. This is a skill that many pilots seem to lack.

The number of airplanes that fall out of the sky because of a simple malfunction or unintended action of the auto flight system is amazing. TK, OZ, maybe this. Whatever happened to flying the airplane?

The other thing suspect is the implication they could hear the trim motors. If the meant the moving trim wheels like the 737, then it’s a bogus report. The 767 trim wouldn’t be heard on the CVR. I’m not sure it would kick in automatically either as implied in the article.

To me, the authenticity of that report is inconclusive.


I don’t buy this GA switch thing either. It would take a massively incompetent crew. I have about 12K hrs on 757/767 which have identical setup (sans the 764). Last 16 years as an instructor and a lot of line training. Never seen an issue. A couple of accidental GA selections (iso A/T off). But never an issue.
 
flightlevel41
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:36 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue May 14, 2019 11:35 am

If the synopsis is true, reads a little like China Airlines Flight 140.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Airlines_Flight_140
 
User avatar
OA940
Posts: 1780
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue May 14, 2019 11:47 am

Ok you can all judge the pilots very easily while sitting on your chairs and typing away at your computers, but in the cockpit it's a vastly different environment and it's easier to make a mistake and miss it. The whole ''pilot skill has degraded'' BS is just that. There have been much more severe cases of pilot error in the past, and considering the number of flights has increased sharply and the number of accidents has gone down significantly I'd say we're okay.

Also I'm not a pilot, but the whole go-around switch story seems very one-in-a-billion and extremely far-fetched. I'm not suggesting it's not a possibility (we've seen crazier things happen) but considering it came from an unofficial source (which is also completely unrelated to aviation) I'd suggest we take it with a grain of salt.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
highflier92660
Posts: 690
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:16 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Tue May 14, 2019 12:49 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Indy wrote:
OldB747Driver wrote:


Just amazing. Is there a 767 pilot that can confirm whether or not the events described in the post are plausible. I am not a pilot and I have no idea if a go around switch exists and whether or not it is located where the post describes and whether or not you could accidentally hit it.


The Go-Around Switches on the 757/767 are on the aft side of the throttle quadrant (they’re forward on the 777/787 and on both sides on the 767-400 and KC-46).

On the 767, you push them in and a bit up with your thumb. They aren’t a very big target. Knowing the geometry of the GA Switches and how you push then, I’m having trouble believing that one’s arm could accidentally hit them without also hitting the thrust levers themselves. I’m not sure I could do that if I tried.

Even if this did occur, didn’t the F/O figure out quickly what to do? You go click-click and click-click and actually fly the airplane. This is a skill that many pilots seem to lack.

The number of airplanes that fall out of the sky because of a simple malfunction or unintended action of the auto flight system is amazing. TK, OZ, maybe this. Whatever happened to flying the airplane?

The other thing suspect is the implication they could hear the trim motors. If the meant the moving trim wheels like the 737, then it’s a bogus report. The 767 trim wouldn’t be heard on the CVR. I’m not sure it would kick in automatically either as implied in the article.

To me, the authenticity of that report is inconclusive.



What is frustrating are the increasingly implausible explanations given as to how the F/O pitched the aircraft downward at 49-degrees at maximum thrust, did not then quickly retard the thrust levers to flight idle and not relinquish control to the captain if, in-fact, he experienced spatial disorientation.

Equally troubling is the theory that the captain inadvertently engaged the TOGA switches like a MLB pitcher throwing an underhand sidewinder to home plate. A retired airline pilot I spoke with put it succinctly: hogwash. The last time there was a demonstration of that degree of nimble elasticity was nearly a half-centuy ago when Richard Nixon's secretary somehow erased 18 1/2 minutes worth of tape.
 
glideslope900
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:18 am

[*]

Has there been any more info on this? CVR transcript would be nice.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:29 am

I imagine it is just a matter of time before the report is released. They have been very quiet so I don't think there are any doubts about what happened.
 
MO11
Posts: 1079
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:07 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:36 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I imagine it is just a matter of time before the report is released. They have been very quiet so I don't think there are any doubts about what happened.


No, the docket isn't even open yet. We pretty much know what happened to the Southwest 737-700 in April 2018, but the report isn't complete.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:40 am

MO11 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I imagine it is just a matter of time before the report is released. They have been very quiet so I don't think there are any doubts about what happened.


No, the docket isn't even open yet. We pretty much know what happened to the Southwest 737-700 in April 2018, but the report isn't complete.


Do you understand what a "matter of time" means? It means an indefinite time period.
 
Natflyer
Posts: 623
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:34 am

Well, the silence is deafening...
 
Armadillo1
Posts: 258
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:14 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:37 am

is there any safety catch/pawl (not know how on english) for TOGA button?
 
arcticcruiser
Posts: 353
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:16 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:41 am

Armadillo1 wrote:
is there any safety catch/pawl (not know how on english) for TOGA button?


No. It is where it has been on every 757/767 since 1982/3. Not been an issue hitherto...
 
Natflyer
Posts: 623
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:24 am

glideslope900 wrote:
[*]

Has there been any more info on this? CVR transcript would be nice.


Exactly how would that be “nice”? This beats your idiotic comment on another thread.
 
glideslope900
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:02 pm

Natflyer wrote:
glideslope900 wrote:
[*]

Has there been any more info on this? CVR transcript would be nice.


Exactly how would that be “nice”? This beats your idiotic comment on another thread.


Calm down.

As a pilot, it would be nice to know exactly what happened here. You learn a lot from others mistakes.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos