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FA9295
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Re: Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:07 pm

Wikipedia has already picked up on it now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Air_Flight_3591
 
Scarebus34
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Re: Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:11 pm

KICT wrote:
Did they fly right into the cell?

Image

They were likely beneath it...
 
Braniff7272
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Re: Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:12 pm

Familiar with that particular area. Because of the high security of Galveston/Trinity Bay, the Houston Ship Channel, due to the petroleum shipments and storage, there may be video of this horrible accident from any of the security cams mounted in the area. With luck and hope there is, and that it will aid the NTSB with their investigation.
Prayers and thoughts to everyone involved.
Last edited by Braniff7272 on Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Jshank83
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Re: Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:13 pm

Wonder if it had a load shift. Going thru storms and turbulence ,then on landing a strap broke or something?
 
KICT
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Re: Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:14 pm

Scarebus34 wrote:
They were likely beneath it...

Not an ideal place to be...
People are saying. Believe me.
 
Salina Chan
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Re: Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:14 pm

listening to the approach around that time, there was no distress call, but after the accident, there were questions about ELTs and a bit thereafter talk about an intermittent primary target. the latter makes me think of the tail floating down... pure speculation of course
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:15 pm

RIP to the crew. That said, why didn't ATC vector the flight south for a hold or eastward for a diversion? That's some pretty severe weather in that line.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:17 pm

Scarebus34 wrote:
KICT wrote:
Did they fly right into the cell?

Image

They were likely beneath it...


Even with a double flame out they wouldn't have had such a steep decent no?
Nikon from day one, Nikon till I die,
 
osiris30
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Re: Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:18 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Wonder if it had a load shift. Going thru storms and turbulence ,then on landing a strap broke or something?


Unlikely only because they were flying for Amazon and likely bulked out without any significant weight onboard.. it's not impossible but it would be unlikely IMHO.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
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OA940
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Re: Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:19 pm

Condolences to the families of those onboard.

I don't think it was a stall. I'd say there was weather involved, but it's way too early to make conclusions.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
Scarebus34
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Re: Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:19 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
RIP to the crew. That said, why didn't ATC vector the flight south for a hold or eastward for a diversion? That's some pretty severe weather in that line.

The weather wasn’t impacting the airport so a diversion/holding was not necessary. Likewise, other aircraft had no problem flying the approach so the weather doesn’t appear to have been as bad as some suspect.
 
KICT
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Re: Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:24 pm

But other aircraft did opt to deviate around the weather in question, as per the LiveATC archive recording.
Atlas Air did not opt to deviate?
People are saying. Believe me.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Atlas Air or Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:24 pm

Sudden cockpit fire? Structural failure? Such an odd point in flight to go down. Terrifying.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
BWIAUS
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Re: Atlas Air or Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:25 pm

Lightning perhaps? Even with static lines, could it have possibly struck an engine?
 
Austin787
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Re: Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:26 pm

KLASM83 wrote:
Man, it's been a long time since we we've had a commercial, domestic air crash with fatalities, and it's sad we ended that streak today.

Many condolences to the families and friends.

Last year, there was that Southwest engine explosion which killed one passenger - though may not technically be a crash depending on your interpretation. Before that, the last commercial airplane crash which resulted in fatalities and hull loss was the UPS A300 which crashed in Alabama in 2013.

It's been even longer since the last commercial airplane crash in Texas - DL 1141 which went down near DFW way back in 1988.
Last edited by Austin787 on Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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InnsbruckFlyer
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Re: Atlas Air or Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:26 pm

Awful. Hopefully the souls on board didn’t suffer. My condolences to the families of the crew.
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2019: A3 2x A320 | CL E195 | FB A319, E190 | LH A320, A321, A346, A359 | OS A320, B772, 3x DH8Q | UA A319
 
ilovelamp
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Re: Atlas Air or Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:26 pm

KICT wrote:
Did they fly right into the cell?

Image


I don’t think so. Everything I’ve seen so far suggests the crash sight is in the extreme north and east corner of the bay. Based on your image the weather wasn’t close enough to play a major role.


ILL
 
FlyinRabbit88
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Re: Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:27 pm

iseeyyc wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
Vladex wrote:

At least its not a passenger flight

True, but there were still people on the plane. 3 (possibly confirmed?) deaths is still 3 too many...

Prayers and thoughts go out to the families of those on board...


Would a flight like this have a loadmaster? Or is the 3rd person likely to have been deadheading?


Most likely an Atlas crew member jumpseating or another airline crew member commuting to/from work.
Last edited by FlyinRabbit88 on Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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blackbox67
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Re: Atlas Air or Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:27 pm

Here's a portion of the ATC chatter minutes before the accident. At some time the controller indicates she's picking up an ELT signal.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kiah/KIAH-App-Feb-23-2019-1830Z.mp3
 
N766UA
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Re: Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:27 pm

iseeyyc wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
Vladex wrote:

At least its not a passenger flight

True, but there were still people on the plane. 3 (possibly confirmed?) deaths is still 3 too many...

Prayers and thoughts go out to the families of those on board...


Would a flight like this have a loadmaster? Or is the 3rd person likely to have been deadheading?


Could be deadheading crew, offline jumpseater, etc.

In this phase of flight I’m very reluctant to start blaming weather. Modern airplanes can typically handle almost anything mother nature can throw at them, so long as they’ve got some speed and altitude, which they did. Undetected fire, payload shift, or mechanical failure seem more likely to me, but that’s obviously conjecture and has no basis in any fact. The simple truth is we lost 3 of our brothers/sisters today and that hurts.
 
log0008
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Re: Atlas Air or Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:28 pm

Note the left turn towards they bay about 2 mins before impact is not part of the standard approach the aircraft was on. Dispute a number of aircraft including UAL1788 flying the same route right after GTI3591 no others made that turn.

Image
 
osiris30
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Re: Atlas Air or Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:30 pm

BWIAUS wrote:
Lightning perhaps? Even with static lines, could it have possibly struck an engine?


No loss of airspeed indicated, which I would expect with a sudden single engine failure.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
audidudi
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Re: Atlas Air or Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:31 pm

Could the cargo have shifted on descent?
 
Scarebus34
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Re: Atlas Air or Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:31 pm

log0008 wrote:
Note the left turn towards they bay about 2 mins before impact is not part of the standard approach the aircraft was on. Dispute a number of aircraft including UAL1788 flying the same route right after GTI3591 no others made that turn.

Image

That could imply they knew they were in trouble and opted to put it in the bay rather on ground.
 
log0008
Posts: 469
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Re: Atlas Air or Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:31 pm

Scarebus34 wrote:
log0008 wrote:
Note the left turn towards they bay about 2 mins before impact is not part of the standard approach the aircraft was on. Dispute a number of aircraft including UAL1788 flying the same route right after GTI3591 no others made that turn.

Image

That could imply they knew they were in trouble and opted to put it in the bay rather on ground.


I'm waiting for more data from FR24 (raw data file) but it looks like for the first 30-60 seconds after the turn the decent was not erratic.

Latest chopper photos

Image
Last edited by log0008 on Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
KICT
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Re: Atlas Air or Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:33 pm

That left turn is bizarre.
Last edited by KICT on Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
People are saying. Believe me.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Atlas Air or Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:33 pm

Wow, and with the weather too, one must wonder if the turbulence might have caused a major shift in the COG? I read the plane might have been carrying construction equipment.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
Chaostheory
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Re: Atlas Air or Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:34 pm

This more more of a general remark which may or may not be relevant to this accident, but it's funny how often I see crews willing to fly through cells and the associated crappy weather on approach yet they would give the same weather a wide berth at cruise.
 
flymia
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Re: Atlas Air or Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:36 pm

Rumors are the third person was a regional airline pilot jump seating.

It was cruising at 40,000ft doubt it had much heavy cargo on board.

Very odd 767s don't crash like this. The list of what it can be is really not that large for such a decent rate.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
BWIAUS
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Re: Atlas Air or Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:37 pm

osiris30 wrote:
BWIAUS wrote:
Lightning perhaps? Even with static lines, could it have possibly struck an engine?


No loss of airspeed indicated, which I would expect with a sudden single engine failure.


I know flightaware isn’t always the best, but it recorded a 55 knot decrease in airspeed.
 
osiris30
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Re: Atlas Air or Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:39 pm

audidudi wrote:
Could the cargo have shifted on descent?


flymia wrote:
Rumors are the third person was a regional airline pilot jump seating.

It was cruising at 40,000ft doubt it had much heavy cargo on board.

Very odd 767s don't crash like this. The list of what it can be is really not that large for such a decent rate.


Again guys this is Amazon. Half their packaging is filled with air. While not impossible I would be very surprised if that had any real weight in it. Volume sure, but boxes of mostly air and packing peanuts.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
Arion640
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Re: Atlas Air or Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:39 pm

F9Animal wrote:
Wow, and with the weather too, one must wonder if the turbulence might have caused a major shift in the COG? I read the plane might have been carrying construction equipment.


Forgive me for my ignorance but don’t amazons planes (atlas in this case) just carry parcels?
Last edited by Arion640 on Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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rfields5421
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Re: Atlas Air or Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:40 pm

audidudi wrote:
Could the cargo have shifted on descent?


Cargo shifts almost always occur on takeoff or very early in the flight. I can't remember a shift in cruise or descent being a primary event leading to a crash.

The pictures available so far remind me of the ValuJet crash. High angle high speed impact with the ground/ water. Like the Everglades, the water in Trinity Bay is not deep enough to hide aircraft debris as large as an engine. Most of the wreckage is likely buried several feet deep in the mud on the bottom of the bay. I don't know what the underground low depth geology is of that part of the bay. How deep the soft mud goes before hitting some substantial rock.
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:41 pm

iseeyyc wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
Vladex wrote:

At least its not a passenger flight

True, but there were still people on the plane. 3 (possibly confirmed?) deaths is still 3 too many...

Prayers and thoughts go out to the families of those on board...


Would a flight like this have a loadmaster? Or is the 3rd person likely to have been deadheading?


DH, Company observer, FAA observer, or extra Crewmember are options for the 3rd person. Probably not a relief crew member.
Boiler Up!
 
edu2703
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:41 pm

Granular ADS-B data by FlightRdar24

Image

Image
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3182
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Re: Atlas Air or Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:42 pm

osiris30 wrote:
audidudi wrote:
Could the cargo have shifted on descent?


flymia wrote:
Rumors are the third person was a regional airline pilot jump seating.

It was cruising at 40,000ft doubt it had much heavy cargo on board.

Very odd 767s don't crash like this. The list of what it can be is really not that large for such a decent rate.


Again guys this is Amazon. Half their packaging is filled with air. While not impossible I would be very surprised if that had any real weight in it. Volume sure, but boxes of mostly air and packing peanuts.

Amazon has drastically improved their packaging in the last year. They’re cramming a lot more packages in every container/trailer than they were just a year ago.

I’m not saying it was very heavy, that I agree with you, but they’re doing a great job of utilizing every cubic foot of space.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
jetmatt777
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Re: Atlas Air or Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:43 pm

We have quite a few Atlas pilots on this board, some flying the Amazon trips. Hoping they were not involved.

Very tragic indeed, thankfully this did not happen over a populated area or even more people would have lost their lives.

Condolences to the friends and family members of the involved pilots.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
F9Animal
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Re: Atlas Air or Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:43 pm

Arion640 wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
Wow, and with the weather too, one must wonder if the turbulence might have caused a major shift in the COG? I read the plane might have been carrying construction equipment.


Forgive me for my ignorance but don’t amazons planes (atlas in this case) just carry parcels?


That's what I have always thought. But, who knows? Maybe they were also carrying some heavy equipment? For the life of me, I cant find the article that mentioned they were carrying construction equipment. Perhaps someone can confirm? I mean, it's still Atlas metal, maybe they might add some additional stuff sometimes?
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
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Miami
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:43 pm

Image
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
GalebG4
Posts: 190
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:45 pm

Saw the video on youtube which is deleted. Airplane feel apart in the mid air and pieces on fire fell on the ground.
 
osiris30
Posts: 2655
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

Re: Atlas Air or Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:46 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
osiris30 wrote:
audidudi wrote:
Could the cargo have shifted on descent?


flymia wrote:
Rumors are the third person was a regional airline pilot jump seating.

It was cruising at 40,000ft doubt it had much heavy cargo on board.

Very odd 767s don't crash like this. The list of what it can be is really not that large for such a decent rate.


Again guys this is Amazon. Half their packaging is filled with air. While not impossible I would be very surprised if that had any real weight in it. Volume sure, but boxes of mostly air and packing peanuts.

Amazon has drastically improved their packaging in the last year. They’re cramming a lot more packages in every container/trailer than they were just a year ago.

I’m not saying it was very heavy, that I agree with you, but they’re doing a great job of utilizing every cubic foot of space.


Figured they do it after I move to the islands. I will take your word for it as I haven't ordered from Amazon in about 15 months.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
SWADawg
Posts: 520
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:47 pm

GalebG4 wrote:
Saw the video on youtube which is deleted. Airplane feel apart in the mid air and pieces on fire fell on the ground.

Incendiary device onboard?
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
log0008
Posts: 469
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:17 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:49 pm

Having a very quick look at the flight radar raw data

Turn from 330 to 240 started at around 2019-02-23 18:37:32Z @ 8750ft and 2300fpm
Aircraft continued descending at around 2300fpm until 18:38:40Z @ 6150ft
Aircraft then climbed/remained level until 18:38:46Z at which point it descended rapidly, with the last data point at 18:39:02Z at 1325ft at 29000fpm

https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/flig ... r-houston/

This is a graph of the decent, starting at the point they start turning from 330 to 240

Image
Last edited by log0008 on Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5907
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:52 pm

GalebG4 wrote:
Saw the video on youtube which is deleted. Airplane feel apart in the mid air and pieces on fire fell on the ground.


YouTube often see's people posting old video and mis-representing it as a very recent crash.

Weather would have been very low visibility, less than 1/4 mile and a very low ceiling as the front went through that area at near the crash time. It is an incredibly isolated area with only one small town in the area of the bay and very few boats in the area.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9527
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:53 pm

SWADawg wrote:
GalebG4 wrote:
Saw the video on youtube which is deleted. Airplane feel apart in the mid air and pieces on fire fell on the ground.

Incendiary device onboard?


A video of this crash? Or a previous crash?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3289
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:53 pm

Tragic. Condolences to those involved.

My speculation would be a sudden in flight breakup. To me that explains the lack of communication and large pieces of debris.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Atlas Air or Giant 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:53 pm

log0008 wrote:
Note the left turn towards they bay about 2 mins before impact is not part of the standard approach the aircraft was on. Dispute a number of aircraft including UAL1788 flying the same route right after GTI3591 no others made that turn.

Image


Possibility that they knew they were in trouble and decided that they had to keep the plane away from populated areas? While their loss of life is tragic, they likely prevented an even larger tragedy in the process. It looks as though the aircraft nose-dived into the bay.
 
Braniff7272
Posts: 10
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:53 pm

Listening to LiveATC, you really have to hand it to the men and women who were handling flights for IAH. Knowing that a B767 has disappeared, they maintain true professionalism throughout the incident. It's their job and they did it well today, like everyday.
 
flymia
Posts: 7105
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:54 pm

Video was probably fake.

Local police did say they have at least 6 eye witnesses.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
KICT
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Re: Atlas Air 3591 Down in Trinity Bay, Texas

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:56 pm

I understand situations like this in the flight deck can change rapidly but the left turn is peculiar. You'd think they would have at least made a radio call.
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