EmoticonsAllDay
Topic Author
Posts: 148
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:19 am

China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:25 am

A pilot in a China Airlines uniform has been captured on video sitting motionless in the cockpit of a Boeing 747 with his head bent forward, seemingly in a state of deep sleep, which is forbidden by the company's rules. The unknown pilot reportedly has about 20 years of experience, mainly flying the Tokyo, Okinawa, Seoul, and Hong Kong routes.

Source: https://sputniknews.com/amp/videoclub/201902231072677329-china-pilot-sleeping/

I guess someone is getting fired especially due to bad PR. No passenger would ever want to see this happening.

P.S. Mods feel free to lock/delete if already posted.
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2110
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:28 am

Isn't controlled rest practiced by pilots around the globe?
 
anstar
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:39 am

anshabhi wrote:
Isn't controlled rest practiced by pilots around the globe?


Airlines like BA, Virgin etc allow it in the UK
 
EmoticonsAllDay
Topic Author
Posts: 148
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:40 am

anshabhi wrote:
Isn't controlled rest practiced by pilots around the globe?


Yes, but they have dedicated crew rest spaces. Sleeping while on the controls is not a usual practice.
 
goboeing
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:41 am

The one who should be in trouble here is the first officer filming.

Not only filming the other pilot asleep, but uploading it to the internet.

What is the motivation there?

And the obvious completely separate topic here being, I'd much rather have the pilot sitting next to me take a couple minutes nap in cruise and feel refreshed, than to be groggy at the top of descent and fighting micro-sleep at the worst times.

The FAA will likely never be able to overcome the absurd level of litigiousness in the US aviation scene, but fortunately some foreign carriers have been able to enact controlled nap policies. It should never be used in lieu of time in a rest bunk for long haul operations but as a complement to combating fatigue. I do not know if China Airlines is one of them.
 
Max Q
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:55 am

goboeing wrote:
The one who should be in trouble here is the first officer filming.

Not only filming the other pilot asleep, but uploading it to the internet.

What is the motivation there?

And the obvious completely separate topic here being, I'd much rather have the pilot sitting next to me take a couple minutes nap in cruise and feel refreshed, than to be groggy at the top of descent and fighting micro-sleep at the worst times.

The FAA will likely never be able to overcome the absurd level of litigiousness in the US aviation scene, but fortunately some foreign carriers have been able to enact controlled nap policies. It should never be used in lieu of time in a rest bunk for long haul operations but as a complement to combating fatigue. I do not know if China Airlines is one of them.




Couldn’t agree more, if you haven’t flown long haul for a living you can’t comprehend the fatigue that comes with that



A controlled nap in the seat is a rational
tactic to help deal with that, the most important thing is that one Pilot is awake



This FO was being petty and obviously had
some sort of grudge to do that to a fellow crew member


He may not be getting any sectors for a long time
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society
 
hayzel777
Posts: 614
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:18 am

Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:03 am

goboeing wrote:
The one who should be in trouble here is the first officer filming.

Not only filming the other pilot asleep, but uploading it to the internet.

What is the motivation there?

And the obvious completely separate topic here being, I'd much rather have the pilot sitting next to me take a couple minutes nap in cruise and feel refreshed, than to be groggy at the top of descent and fighting micro-sleep at the worst times.

The FAA will likely never be able to overcome the absurd level of litigiousness in the US aviation scene, but fortunately some foreign carriers have been able to enact controlled nap policies. It should never be used in lieu of time in a rest bunk for long haul operations but as a complement to combating fatigue. I do not know if China Airlines is one of them.

The sleeping pilot is the 747 Chief Pilot, who also happened to be involved in labor negotiations at the time hence the posting. The FO was punished for this as well.
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:08 am

The unknown pilot reportedly has about 20 years of experience, mainly flying the Tokyo, Okinawa, Seoul, and Hong Kong routes.

How can the pilot be unknown, yet they know he’s been flying for 20-years *and* what routes he’s flying??
 
hayzel777
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:08 am

EmoticonsAllDay wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Isn't controlled rest practiced by pilots around the globe?


Yes, but they have dedicated crew rest spaces. Sleeping while on the controls is not a usual practice.


anstar wrote:
Airlines like BA, Virgin etc allow it in the UK

Max Q wrote:
Couldn’t agree more, if you haven’t flown long haul for a living you can’t comprehend the fatigue that comes with that



A controlled nap in the seat is a rational
tactic to help deal with that, the most important thing is that one Pilot is awake



This FO was being petty and obviously had
some sort of grudge to do that to a fellow crew member


He may not be getting any sectors for a long time

Controlled rest is not a legal thing according to Taiwan's Civil Aeronautic Administration regulations. The chief pilot was disciplined, but continues to hold his 747 chief pilot status with the company. The FO was punished for using his phone in the cockpit, not maintaining situational awareness with a sleeping captain, and not waking up the captain.
 
Eikie
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:35 am

EmoticonsAllDay wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Isn't controlled rest practiced by pilots around the globe?


Yes, but they have dedicated crew rest spaces. Sleeping while on the controls is not a usual practice.

It depends on local regulators, but a short sleep at the controls is allowed in case of sudden and unexpected fatigue.
Not all flights/aircraft have a crew rest and with duties of 10/11 hours around midnight, you can be sure someone will be too tired once in a while.
 
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LaunchDetected
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:42 am

clrd4t8koff wrote:
The unknown pilot reportedly has about 20 years of experience, mainly flying the Tokyo, Okinawa, Seoul, and Hong Kong routes.

How can the pilot be unknown, yet they know he’s been flying for 20-years *and* what routes he’s flying??


My guess: the original (chinese) article didn't release the pilot name for confidentiality reasons, only its career. Then Sputnik (not known for its reliability) took all the data they could, turning "undisclosed name" to "unknown name".
Caravelle lover
 
anstar
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:09 am

EmoticonsAllDay wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Isn't controlled rest practiced by pilots around the globe?


Yes, but they have dedicated crew rest spaces. Sleeping while on the controls is not a usual practice.


Well "contrtolled rest" or "inseat napping" is sleeping in the flight deck seat they operate in... thats different from "crew rest" which is usually a seperate facility.

As I said above airlines like VS and BA allow "controlled rest" aka in seat napping on 2 man crews in the flight deck.
 
FlapsOne
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:31 am

anshabhi wrote:
Isn't controlled rest practiced by pilots around the globe?


I will NEVER NEVER NEVER take controlled rest. If I need it I’ll offload myself downroute. I will not allow some idiot to take a photo of me which can be used against me or my airline in years to follow. I will not allow my napping face to be paraded around the world for some kid to get his 15 seconds of fame for ‘breaking’ the story.
 
Max Q
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:51 am

hayzel777 wrote:
EmoticonsAllDay wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Isn't controlled rest practiced by pilots around the globe?


Yes, but they have dedicated crew rest spaces. Sleeping while on the controls is not a usual practice.


anstar wrote:
Airlines like BA, Virgin etc allow it in the UK

Max Q wrote:
Couldn’t agree more, if you haven’t flown long haul for a living you can’t comprehend the fatigue that comes with that



A controlled nap in the seat is a rational
tactic to help deal with that, the most important thing is that one Pilot is awake



This FO was being petty and obviously had
some sort of grudge to do that to a fellow crew member


He may not be getting any sectors for a long time

Controlled rest is not a legal thing according to Taiwan's Civil Aeronautic Administration regulations. The chief pilot was disciplined, but continues to hold his 747 chief pilot status with the company. The FO was punished for using his phone in the cockpit, not maintaining situational awareness with a sleeping captain, and not waking up the captain.




Whether it’s ‘legal’ or not it happens all
the time, long haul pilots are often tired
due to time zone changes, being wide awake and unable to sleep when they need to then dead tired when they’re supposed to be awake



Better to regulate and have controlled naps in the seat than all this senseless hysteria


The FO is the one at fault here
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society
 
BA777FO
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:41 am

FlapsOne wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Isn't controlled rest practiced by pilots around the globe?


I will NEVER NEVER NEVER take controlled rest. If I need it I’ll offload myself downroute. I will not allow some idiot to take a photo of me which can be used against me or my airline in years to follow. I will not allow my napping face to be paraded around the world for some kid to get his 15 seconds of fame for ‘breaking’ the story.


Guess you'll never fly long haul, huh?! 2 crew overnight UVF-LGW? 2 crew ATL-LHR? or 2 crew MCO-LGW? Good luck starting at midnight on your body clock and being alert enough the following morning to land an aircraft on minimums in fog/snow/35knot crosswinds. Controlled rest, when carried out properly, significantly enhances safety.

It's times like this that make me glad I work for a thoroughly safety-oriented airline in the UK rather than taking more money and flying somewhere with a total disregard for it, and CRM especially, in China or the Middle East. Flying is a team game - I'd hate to fly somewhere where I have to be constantly worried about someone stabbing me in the back.
 
glideslope900
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:51 am

BA777FO wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Isn't controlled rest practiced by pilots around the globe?


I will NEVER NEVER NEVER take controlled rest. If I need it I’ll offload myself downroute. I will not allow some idiot to take a photo of me which can be used against me or my airline in years to follow. I will not allow my napping face to be paraded around the world for some kid to get his 15 seconds of fame for ‘breaking’ the story.


Guess you'll never fly long haul, huh?! 2 crew overnight UVF-LGW? 2 crew ATL-LHR? or 2 crew MCO-LGW? Good luck starting at midnight on your body clock and being alert enough the following

morning to land an aircraft on minimums in fog/snow/35knot crosswinds. Controlled rest, when carried out properly, significantly enhances safety.

It's times like this that make me glad I work for a thoroughly safety-oriented airline in the UK rather than taking more money and flying somewhere with a total disregard for it, and CRM especially, in China or the Middle East. Flying is a team game - I'd hate to fly somewhere where I have to be constantly worried about someone stabbing me in the back.


ATL-LHR would be an augmented crew no? It certainly would with FAA regulations.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:59 am

Once again, controlled rest is becoming common practice across the industry.

It is a useful tool as a quick 'power nap' in the cockpit during the circadian low can do wonders to alertness. It has to be limited to about 15-20 minutes to be effective and avoid sleep inertia, as well as to reduce the risk of the other pilot accidentally falling asleep at the same time.
Airlines that operate with a 21st century safety mindset (obviously no CI...) also recommend pilots to report its use for their fatigue monitoring system.
Don't get me wrong, I am not a complete advocate of controlled rest in the sense that whereas it allows to alleviate extreme sleepiness at the small hours of the night, it is also a tool that allows operators to roster more fatiguing patterns with less crew in the name of increasing productivity and saving money...


However, this incident is only one in many that paint a pretty damning picture of the safety culture at CI and Taiwan in general.
Taiwan doesn't appear to allow controlled rest, yet I am pretty certain that they do not crew their red eye patterns enough to allow for proper in-flight rest during the WOCL. Pilots are humans too, who have lives during the day and who, when asked to fly across the night - especially in alternance with daytime duties as is almost always the case - will get sleepy, no matter how much coffee they drink.

I would say that Taiwan's civil aviation authority and its airlines should look into coming out of the dark ages and joining the modern World when it comes to tackling safety.
Also, what the hell is wrong with CI's cockpit culture where pilots just throw themselves under the bus? I understand the dislike for management pilots, but geez...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
BA777FO
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:27 pm

glideslope900 wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:

I will NEVER NEVER NEVER take controlled rest. If I need it I’ll offload myself downroute. I will not allow some idiot to take a photo of me which can be used against me or my airline in years to follow. I will not allow my napping face to be paraded around the world for some kid to get his 15 seconds of fame for ‘breaking’ the story.


Guess you'll never fly long haul, huh?! 2 crew overnight UVF-LGW? 2 crew ATL-LHR? or 2 crew MCO-LGW? Good luck starting at midnight on your body clock and being alert enough the following

morning to land an aircraft on minimums in fog/snow/35knot crosswinds. Controlled rest, when carried out properly, significantly enhances safety.

It's times like this that make me glad I work for a thoroughly safety-oriented airline in the UK rather than taking more money and flying somewhere with a total disregard for it, and CRM especially, in China or the Middle East. Flying is a team game - I'd hate to fly somewhere where I have to be constantly worried about someone stabbing me in the back.


ATL-LHR would be an augmented crew no? It certainly would with FAA regulations.


In the winter it's a 3 crew 24 hour slip. In the summer it's one of our longest 2 crew (but 48 hour slip) trips as the westerly jetstreams aren't so strong in summer. Longest 2 crew sectors we do are UVF-LGW, ANU-LGW, MCO-LGW (summer only again), BGI-LGW, ATL-LHR, AUH-LHR, MCT-LHR and LHR-ORD feels like it when you're landing at 3am on your body clock in snow! We have a few very long 3 crew sectors that are on the cusp of requiring a 4th crew member but we seem to be flying too fast to trigger it for now!
 
FlapsOne
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:33 pm

BA777FO wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Isn't controlled rest practiced by pilots around the globe?


I will NEVER NEVER NEVER take controlled rest. If I need it I’ll offload myself downroute. I will not allow some idiot to take a photo of me which can be used against me or my airline in years to follow. I will not allow my napping face to be paraded around the world for some kid to get his 15 seconds of fame for ‘breaking’ the story.


Guess you'll never fly long haul, huh?! 2 crew overnight UVF-LGW? 2 crew ATL-LHR? or 2 crew MCO-LGW? Good luck starting at midnight on your body clock and being alert enough the following morning to land an aircraft on minimums in fog/snow/35knot crosswinds. Controlled rest, when carried out properly, significantly enhances safety.

It's times like this that make me glad I work for a thoroughly safety-oriented airline in the UK rather than taking more money and flying somewhere with a total disregard for it, and CRM especially, in China or the Middle East. Flying is a team game - I'd hate to fly somewhere where I have to be constantly worried about someone stabbing me in the back.


I appreciate it must be a struggle to operate one 12 hour sector following two nights of luxuriating at a resort but I do 10-12 hour multiple sector duties to some fairly challenging places five days on the bounce and I’ve never felt the need.
 
BA777FO
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:39 pm

FlapsOne wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:

I will NEVER NEVER NEVER take controlled rest. If I need it I’ll offload myself downroute. I will not allow some idiot to take a photo of me which can be used against me or my airline in years to follow. I will not allow my napping face to be paraded around the world for some kid to get his 15 seconds of fame for ‘breaking’ the story.


Guess you'll never fly long haul, huh?! 2 crew overnight UVF-LGW? 2 crew ATL-LHR? or 2 crew MCO-LGW? Good luck starting at midnight on your body clock and being alert enough the following morning to land an aircraft on minimums in fog/snow/35knot crosswinds. Controlled rest, when carried out properly, significantly enhances safety.

It's times like this that make me glad I work for a thoroughly safety-oriented airline in the UK rather than taking more money and flying somewhere with a total disregard for it, and CRM especially, in China or the Middle East. Flying is a team game - I'd hate to fly somewhere where I have to be constantly worried about someone stabbing me in the back.


I appreciate it must be a struggle to operate one 12 hour sector following two nights of luxuriating at a resort but I do 10-12 hour multiple sector duties to some fairly challenging places five days on the bounce and I’ve never felt the need.


Luxuriating? In Lagos? You really have no idea!

I never felt the need for controlled rest flying shorthaul/narrowbodies, but long haul is a different ball game. I've done my fair share of long multi-sector days: LGW-RAK-LGW-JER / JER-LGW-AMS-LGW-NAP / NAP-LGW-FAO-LGW followed by days of the likes of LGW-SZG-LGW-NCE-LGW 4 sector days on blocks of 6 (we often did a 6 on 1 off, 5 on 2 off type pattern) and I've flown to plenty of challenging places but nothing fatigues you like having to be awake for 16 hours when your circadian rythm is suggesting you should be asleep.

The body's circadian rythm can only really change by ~2 hours per day, so a 24 or 48 hour slip is not enough time to entirely shift you in being able to effectively operate at night when you operating during the day just a day or two prior. Perhaps your airline will teach a human factors session for you when you go long haul?
Last edited by BA777FO on Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
FlapsOne
Posts: 156
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:45 pm

BA777FO wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:
BA777FO wrote:

Guess you'll never fly long haul, huh?! 2 crew overnight UVF-LGW? 2 crew ATL-LHR? or 2 crew MCO-LGW? Good luck starting at midnight on your body clock and being alert enough the following morning to land an aircraft on minimums in fog/snow/35knot crosswinds. Controlled rest, when carried out properly, significantly enhances safety.

It's times like this that make me glad I work for a thoroughly safety-oriented airline in the UK rather than taking more money and flying somewhere with a total disregard for it, and CRM especially, in China or the Middle East. Flying is a team game - I'd hate to fly somewhere where I have to be constantly worried about someone stabbing me in the back.


I appreciate it must be a struggle to operate one 12 hour sector following two nights of luxuriating at a resort but I do 10-12 hour multiple sector duties to some fairly challenging places five days on the bounce and I’ve never felt the need.


Luxuriating? In Lagos? You really have no idea!

I never felt the need for controlled rest flying shorthaul/narrowbodies, but long haul is a different ball game.


You used UVF as an example. That being St Lucia. Renowned for its luxury resorts. Lagos is barely longer than a Red Sea which I do a there and back on, usually on day five. Never felt the need to nap.
 
Salomon
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:18 am

Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:46 pm

FlapsOne wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Isn't controlled rest practiced by pilots around the globe?


I will NEVER NEVER NEVER take controlled rest. If I need it I’ll offload myself downroute. I will not allow some idiot to take a photo of me which can be used against me or my airline in years to follow. I will not allow my napping face to be paraded around the world for some kid to get his 15 seconds of fame for ‘breaking’ the story.


Comments like yours are wrong on so many levels.

Sleeping isn't optional. It is one of the most underrated aspects of our lives and too often is seen as avoidable, unproductive or even unmanly . I invite you to read "Why we sleep" by M. Walker
Takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory.
 
BA777FO
Posts: 347
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:53 pm

FlapsOne wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:

I appreciate it must be a struggle to operate one 12 hour sector following two nights of luxuriating at a resort but I do 10-12 hour multiple sector duties to some fairly challenging places five days on the bounce and I’ve never felt the need.


Luxuriating? In Lagos? You really have no idea!

I never felt the need for controlled rest flying shorthaul/narrowbodies, but long haul is a different ball game.


You used UVF as an example. That being St Lucia. Renowned for its luxury resorts. Lagos is barely longer than a Red Sea which I do a there and back on, usually on day five. Never felt the need to nap.


Do you know where we stay in St. Lucia? No. And it really doesn't matter how luxurious it is, your body doesn't really care where you've been for the past 48 hours (doing an intra-Caribbean shuttle in our case) when you miss out on a night of sleep.

I've done plenty of London-Paphos-London day trips in an old 737 doing 0.74M - as a day trip it's fine, I've done loads of them without needing any controlled rest. Report for work at 10pm and do it over night and it's different. Does your airline have an FRMS? Not such an issue if all of your duties fall within normal circadian rythm waking hours and not over your WOCL.

Maybe you're a super human and can effectively operate on 24 hours of no sleep but fatigue is a real problem the industry over and your cavalier attitude towards it is dangerous.
 
worldranger
Posts: 232
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:12 pm

Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:01 pm

FlapsOne wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:

I will NEVER NEVER NEVER take controlled rest. If I need it I’ll offload myself downroute. I will not allow some idiot to take a photo of me which can be used against me or my airline in years to follow. I will not allow my napping face to be paraded around the world for some kid to get his 15 seconds of fame for ‘breaking’ the story.


Guess you'll never fly long haul, huh?! 2 crew overnight UVF-LGW? 2 crew ATL-LHR? or 2 crew MCO-LGW? Good luck starting at midnight on your body clock and being alert enough the following morning to land an aircraft on minimums in fog/snow/35knot crosswinds. Controlled rest, when carried out properly, significantly enhances safety.

It's times like this that make me glad I work for a thoroughly safety-oriented airline in the UK rather than taking more money and flying somewhere with a total disregard for it, and CRM especially, in China or the Middle East. Flying is a team game - I'd hate to fly somewhere where I have to be constantly worried about someone stabbing me in the back.


I appreciate it must be a struggle to operate one 12 hour sector following two nights of luxuriating at a resort but I do 10-12 hour multiple sector duties to some fairly challenging places five days on the bounce and I’ve never felt the need.


Controlled rest widely used around the world by global carriers. Your comments are misinformed. The value of a one hour nap or longer in cruise cannot be overrated. You want someone fresh on landing, naps work. I used to do short hall twenty years ago, multiple legs etc - totally differen5 game to circadian disruption on long haul. I ALWAYS ATAJE CONTROLLED REST
 
sandyb123
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Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:29 pm

Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:10 pm

Uneducated question. Doesn’t one of the pilots asleep constitute single pilot ops. In a similar vein to Germanwings 9525 would it be possible for the PIC to do the same or would the altitude change, alarms etc be enough to wake the sleeping pilot? In the eyes of the regulators at least?

Sandyb123
Member of the mile high club
 
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longhauler
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:33 pm

FlapsOne wrote:
I will NEVER NEVER NEVER take controlled rest. If I need it I’ll offload myself downroute.


FlapsOne wrote:
I appreciate it must be a struggle to operate one 12 hour sector following two nights of luxuriating at a resort but I do 10-12 hour multiple sector duties to some fairly challenging places five days on the bounce and I’ve never felt the need.


These comments would indicate that you operate in a very different environment than a long haul over night operation. The mere fact that you have the option to "download myself downroute" is a luxury not offered to someone on a 10 hour flight with only one leg during a duty day. A multi sector duty day during daylight hours (as would common on a multi leg duty period) is far far easier than one leg during 0000-0500 body time.

The statistics on Controlled Rest are compelling. One 20 minute rest in a cockpit seat is far safer than hanging on one's shoulder straps at 10W as the sun is coming up.

Where I fly, Controlled Rest, is governed by a checklist under very strict conditions. Also, any time Controlled Rest is used, we must file a fatigue report. (non punitive, of course), so that if one route appears more than others, an additional pilot is added.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:43 pm

It appears a lot of regulators and airlines are encouraging controlled rest. Studies show it improves safety.

Becomes an issue if the PIC does some mistake during controlled rest, like not responding to radio calls (or) disengaging autopilot, it becomes news.

On a slow news day, single tweet by uneducated blogger picked up Tier-1 Tabloids (previous known as mainstream media), fed into news wires. ....
 
Chaostheory
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:55 pm

sandyb123 wrote:
Uneducated question. Doesn’t one of the pilots asleep constitute single pilot ops. In a similar vein to Germanwings 9525 would it be possible for the PIC to do the same or would the altitude change, alarms etc be enough to wake the sleeping pilot? In the eyes of the regulators at least?
Sandyb123


That's why regulators require a member of cabin crew in the cockpit during any rest period. Can't have the second pilot dozing off too.

longhauler wrote:
The statistics on Controlled Rest are compelling. One 20 minute rest in a cockpit seat is far safer than hanging on one's shoulder straps at 10W as the sun is coming up.


:checkmark:

Shift work which flip flops between night and day, effectively what long-haul flying is, causes a massive disruption to the body clock. A lot of research has been carried out on this topic. Interestingly, some of the best studies looked at fatigue and alertness in long distance lorry drivers.
 
FlapsOne
Posts: 156
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:07 pm

Sorry guys but no. Controlled rest should be seen as a last resort. Rosters should be built so that controlled rest is not required. It must be reported whenever it is used and must be investigated. In a decade of flying I’ve seen it done just once and it was not me doing the napping. What people do outside of their work is their business but if they’re regularly relying on controlled rest to get through a roster block then they need to be raising that with their AME.
 
okie73
Posts: 354
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:09 pm

Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:42 pm

FlapsOne wrote:
Sorry guys but no. Controlled rest should be seen as a last resort. Rosters should be built so that controlled rest is not required. It must be reported whenever it is used and must be investigated. In a decade of flying I’ve seen it done just once and it was not me doing the napping. What people do outside of their work is their business but if they’re regularly relying on controlled rest to get through a roster block then they need to be raising that with their AME.


Wow. Even with the best trip, sleep is sometimes hard to come by. Flying internationally is very fatigue inducing. A little cat nap on the flight deck does not indicate a need to see your AME. You must be the one Superman who never needs a few minutes of studying the overhead.
 
FlapsOne
Posts: 156
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:46 pm

okie73 wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:
Sorry guys but no. Controlled rest should be seen as a last resort. Rosters should be built so that controlled rest is not required. It must be reported whenever it is used and must be investigated. In a decade of flying I’ve seen it done just once and it was not me doing the napping. What people do outside of their work is their business but if they’re regularly relying on controlled rest to get through a roster block then they need to be raising that with their AME.


Wow. Even with the best trip, sleep is sometimes hard to come by. Flying internationally is very fatigue inducing. A little cat nap on the flight deck does not indicate a need to see your AME. You must be the one Superman who never needs a few minutes of studying the overhead.


Reread what I said. I did not say one little cat nap means see an AME. Don’t put words in my mouth or ignore what I say so that you can jump on the outrage bus and launch your personal attack’s.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:56 pm

FlapsOne wrote:
Sorry guys but no. Controlled rest should be seen as a last resort. Rosters should be built so that controlled rest is not required.


Ha!

Meanwhile, in the real World, where the rest of us live...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
Passedv1
Posts: 643
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:09 pm

That looks like Captains exercise of emergency authority if I ever saw it. It was obviously a safe time to nap since the FO had time to also violate policy and use a by using his electronic device on the flight deck. Should the Captain fight his urge to sleep until he is on approach and risk nodding off in the flare?

I once "tongue-in-cheek" suggested to our scheduling committee chairman that we should put it in our contract that the people in the crew planning office should have their work schedule every week matched up to one of the nastier pairings that the pilots choose. I said it "tongue-in-cheek" but I really believe that it would work to fix a lot of our scheduling problems.

And by the way, I don't care, but since so many people on airliners.net and the FAA do you must always be awake at your desk-no naps. You may not read any non-pertinent materials while at work. You may not listen to any music nor watch any movies while at work. Definitely no texting or surfing the internet. When you are on a break you can't take a nap since heaven forbid a passenger snap a picture while you are at the gate between flights or up in the terminal waiting for your next airplane, wouldn't want any passengers thinking there is such a thing as a tired pilot.

Monday - 1pm-4:30pm work; 4:30pm-6:00pm break, 6:00pm-9:00pm work, 9:00pm-10:30pm break, 10:30pm-11:50 pm work.
go to a hotel for 24 hours
Tuesday - 11pm-3am work, 3am-4:30am break, 4:30am-8am work.
go to a hotel for about 10 hours
Wednesday - 6pm-8pm work
go to a hotel for 11 hours
Thursday - 7am-9am work, 11am-2pm break, 2pm 5pm work, 5pm-6pm break, 6pm-8pm work.

This was the profile of a pairing at a major airline. If the public saw some of the pairings at the regionals they would really (rightfully) be alarmed.
Last edited by Passedv1 on Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Speedalive
Posts: 136
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:26 pm

FlapsOne wrote:
You used UVF as an example. That being St Lucia. Renowned for its luxury resorts. Lagos is barely longer than a Red Sea which I do a there and back on, usually on day five. Never felt the need to nap.

Man if only every pilot was as gifted as you are... :roll:
 
FlapsOne
Posts: 156
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:31 pm

Oh dear. It seems people have misunderstood controlled rest.

APPENDIX C: PROCEDURES FOR CONTROLLED REST ON THE FLIGHT DECK
Controlled rest on the flight deck is an effective fatigue mitigation for flight crews. It should not be used as a scheduling tool. It is not a substitute for proper preflight sleep or for normal crew augmentation, but intended as a response to ***unexpected fatigue*** experienced during operations. Some basic principles:
• It should be considered a safety net.
• The Fatigue Safety Action Group should be able to monitor the use of controlled rest on the flight deck to evaluate whether existing mitigation strategies are adequate. Crew reports are encouraged.
• It should only be used on flights of sufficient length that it does not interfere with required operational duties.
• It should only be used during low workload phases of flight (e.g., during cruise flight).
• It should not be used as a method for extending crew duty periods.
• Procedures for controlled rest on the flight deck should be published and included in the Operations Manual.
Recommended Procedures for Controlled Rest on the Flight Deck
The following recommended procedures are based on a survey of major air carriers. They represent considerable experience in many regions of the globe and include options reflecting variations between different types of operations.


ICAO document here as I’m not posting my ops manual. Controlled rest cannot and should not be planned. It is a response to unplanned, unexpected and acute fatigue. You cannot simply plan to have a nap in flight or think that you’ll be able to get through the flight as long as you have a nap in the air. It’s at the discretion of the commander. What if the commander denies your request as is his right? Prior to departure if you’re feeling the need to get an in flight nap before you’ve left the ground then it’s likely that you’re unfit for that duty.
 
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zeke
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:32 pm

VSMUT wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:
Francoflier wrote:

Ha!

Meanwhile, in the real World, where the rest of us live...


A decade of my rostering has resulted in me requiring controlled rest exactly zero times.


Good for you.

Thats not the case at most airlines in this world.


Yep, in the real world rosters are built by computers, and pilots are just numbers that fill a hole.

I can imagine the CP would not normally fly the line that much and probably got called to dinthat flight as a last resort. Being CP during a strike must be very stressful.

Good on him for taking controlled rest, safer than a micro nap on final.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
FlapsOne
Posts: 156
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:34 pm

Speedalive wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:
You used UVF as an example. That being St Lucia. Renowned for its luxury resorts. Lagos is barely longer than a Red Sea which I do a there and back on, usually on day five. Never felt the need to nap.

Man if only every pilot was as gifted as you are... :roll:


If I’m fatigued I’ll go fatigued. If I haven’t slept correctly I’ll call in unfit. I will NEVER simply turn up for work thinking I can have a quick nap in order to make it home.

Sorry if that makes me a bad guy or sorry that you all feel that I’m somehow unfit to be at the controls but I’d rather people be more like me than simply planning on and engaging in controlled rest. It’s the premeditated aspect of controlled rest that I find troubling.

People are atmottijg to regularly flying and checking in for work KNOWING that they’re going to need controlled rest. That’s against my ops manual. It seems to be against ICAO best practice and EASA also take a dim view on the matter of using controlled rest to get though a roster which is not something I’ve ever done. I know. Terrible aren’t I?

Unforeseen acute fatigue has controlled rest as a mitigation against that but you cannot have foreseen that prior to departure. I’m not saying controlled rest is a bad thing but I’m saying that if you’re regularly doing it then something isn’t right. If you’re regularly planning on controlled rest to get you through a roster or trip then you’re likely breaching your employer’s FRMS guidelines.
Last edited by FlapsOne on Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
BHM
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:42 pm

I have no clue on the rules and regulations but as a passenger, I would prefer having my experienced captain napping in his seat versus being sound asleep some place out of the cockpit. I am thinking AF447 might have had a different outcome?
 
FlapsOne
Posts: 156
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:47 pm

We have a flag carrier pilot implying that controlled rest is just standard and in fact a requirement to do the job and fly a duty and there’s me who will suggest a roster change when I think it will be fatiguing, will refuse fatiguing duties picked up when on standby, will call unfit when required and will also go fatigued when required and I won’t simply turn up for work knowing I’ll need to sleep in the air just to get through my duty.

I know who I’d rather be flying my family around.
 
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zeke
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:48 pm

FlapsOne wrote:
Reputable airlines allow crews to highlight possibly fatiguing duties and suggest they’re changed and when no roster change is enacted crews can go unfit or fatigued.


When multiple people have suggested you pull your head in, please take the suggestion onboard in the spirit it was intended.

It is downright insulting to suggest you are the only person who works for a reputable airline.

I would suggest you do not work under the Taiwan CAA rules or for that matter any Asian carrier, and have no idea how the rest of the world actually works.

I also do multiple sector 12 hr days, followed by 11 hrs off. Except some of my days finish at 5am and then starts again at 6pm. I can be rostered to work through 4 nights sleep on my body clock doing multiple day and night sectors in a block of 6 days on. And that is not even going to the legal maximums.
Last edited by zeke on Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
FlapsOne
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:51 pm

BHM wrote:
I have no clue on the rules and regulations but as a passenger, I would prefer having my experienced captain napping in his seat versus being sound asleep some place out of the cockpit. I am thinking AF447 might have had a different outcome?


That was an augmented crew so not reall the same. Controlled rest has its place in unplanned, unforeseen situations where acute fatigue is experienced, but it does have its costs as well as its benefits.

The following events all illustrate the need for flight crew to recognise the importance of a recovery period proportional to the sleep inertia generated by a nap - and thereby be able to appreciate the reasoning which underlies the procedures applied by those operators who sanction the controlled rest option.

Boeing 767-300 2011 On 14 January 2011 an Air Canada Boeing 767-300 was midway across the Atlantic Ocean eastbound at night when the First Officer, who had just woken from an exceptionally long period in-seat rest, suddenly but erroneously perceived a collision risk from oncoming traffic and without warning intervened to dive the aircraft before the Captain could stop him causing 16 occupant injuries. His behaviour was attributed to the effect of ‘sleep inertia’ following a much longer period of sleep than permitted by Air Canada procedures. It was concluded that many Air Canada pilots did not understand the reasoning behind these procedures.

Boeing 737-800 2010 On 22 May 2010, an Air India Express Boeing 737-800 overran the landing runway at Mangalore when attempting a go around after thrust reverser deployment following a fast and late touchdown off an unstable approach. Almost all of the 166 occupants were killed when control was lost and the aircraft crashed into a ravine off the end of the runway. It was noted a relevant factor in respect of the approach, landing and failed go around attempt was probably the effect of ‘sleep inertia’ on the Captain’s performance and judgement after a prolonged sleep en-route.

Boeing 777-300 2010 On 11 Jan 2010, an Air France Boeing 777-300ER successfully rejected a night take off from Lagos from significantly above V1 when control column pressure at rotation was perceived as abnormal. The root and secondary causes of the incident were found to be the failure of the Captain to arm the A/T during flight deck preparation and his inappropriate response to this on the take off roll. It was considered that his performance may have being an indirect consequence of his decision to take a 40 minute period of in-seat rest during the 90 minute transit stop at Lagos.
 
FlapsOne
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:13 pm

Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:52 pm

zeke wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:
Reputable airlines allow crews to highlight possibly fatiguing duties and suggest they’re changed and when no roster change is enacted crews can go unfit or fatigued.


When multiple people have suggested you pull your head in, please take the suggestion onboard in the spirit it was intended.

It is downright insulting to suggest you are the only person who works for a reputable airline.

I would suggest you do not work under the Taiwan CAA rules or for that matter any Asian carrier, and have no idea how the rest of the world actually works.

I also do multiple sector 12 hr days, followed by 11 hrs off. Except some of my days finish at 5am and then starts again at 6pm. I can be rostered to work through 4 nights sleep on my body clock doing multiple day and night sectors. And that is not even going to the legal maximums.


It seems that multiple people seem to misunderstand what controlled rest is and what it is for. If you’re regularly relying on controlled rest to get through a roster block then something is very wrong.

If you are, or suspect you are suffering from acute, unplanned fatigued then you can take controlled rest (I’m not talking augmented ops) and report it on arrival. If, prior to departure you foresee that you will require controlled rest in order to complete the duty and plan to sleep during the flight then you cannot depart and must arrange for you to be replaced.

I can’t ever see me stepping onboard a Taiwanese airline but appreciate that I’m lucky to work for an airline that takes fatigue seriously. If crews are persecuted for raising fatigue concerns with a roster or suffering from it long term then I’d expect that airline to take those issues seriously.

I suggest airlines that don’t have a safe approach to rostering and fatigue and airlines where crews are regularly relying and counting on controlled rest to get though rosters then the airlines should be named and shamed.
Last edited by FlapsOne on Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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zeke
Posts: 13967
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:03 pm

FlapsOne wrote:
If you’re regularly relying on controlled rest to get through a roster block then something is very wrong.

I can’t ever see me stepping onboard a Taiwanese airline but appreciate that I’m lucky to work for an airline that takes fatigue seriously.


Who said anything about regular use ? It’s a fatigue mitigation tool that is used by professional pilots at many reputable airlines around the world.

Nothing is “very wrong”, you are just unaware of what various regulators consider to be legal. What is legal is then used as the rules the rostering systems use to build rosters.

I would suggest what is generating your roster is not the legal maximum, it is a union agreement. The very thing China Airlines pilots are on strike over.

If you are going to rule out Taiwanese carriers, you should also not step foot in any EU-OPS carrier as they are even less restricted.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
FlapsOne
Posts: 156
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:09 pm

Who said anything about regular use ? It’s a fatigue mitigation tool that is used by professional pilots at many reputable airlines around the world.


BA777FO: ‘Guess you'll never fly long haul, huh?! 2 crew overnight UVF-LGW? 2 crew ATL-LHR? or 2 crew MCO-LGW?’ This certainly implies that it’s common on this airline’s two man east coast TATL and Caribbean ops and that this particular FO hasn’t used it as a one off counter measure to unplanned and unforeseen fatigue but is using a lot more frequently which I find troubling.

Nothing is “very wrong”, you are just unaware of what various regulators consider to be legal. What is legal is then used as the rules the rostering systems use to build rosters.


Please provide me with a reference whereby controlled risk can be considered at the pre flight phase in order to get through a duty. I’d be highly concerned over a regulator allowing crews using fatigue mitigation such as controlled rest in order to build their lines of flying and rostering.

I would suggest what is generating your roster is not the legal maximum, it is a union agreement. The very thing China Airlines pilots are on strike over.


Rostering will take into account legal requirements and union requirements. Union requirements will likely be more restrictive than the legal rostering requirements and will produce less fatiguing rosters than simply meeting the minimum legal requirement.

If you are going to rule out Taiwanese carriers, you should also not step foot in any EU-OPS carrier as they are even less restricted.


I’m EU-OPS and agree that EASA’s new FTLs are catastrophic however rules over controlled rest are clear even under EASA.
 
VSMUT
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:29 pm

FlapsOne wrote:
If I’m fatigued I’ll go fatigued. If I haven’t slept correctly I’ll call in unfit. I will NEVER simply turn up for work thinking I can have a quick nap in order to make it home.


What if I told you that fatigue can set in during a flight?

FlapsOne wrote:
The following events all illustrate the need for flight crew to recognise the importance of a recovery period proportional to the sleep inertia generated by a nap - and thereby be able to appreciate the reasoning which underlies the procedures applied by those operators who sanction the controlled rest option.

Boeing 767-300 2011 On 14 January 2011 an Air Canada Boeing 767-300 was midway across the Atlantic Ocean eastbound at night when the First Officer, who had just woken from an exceptionally long period in-seat rest, suddenly but erroneously perceived a collision risk from oncoming traffic and without warning intervened to dive the aircraft before the Captain could stop him causing 16 occupant injuries. His behaviour was attributed to the effect of ‘sleep inertia’ following a much longer period of sleep than permitted by Air Canada procedures. It was concluded that many Air Canada pilots did not understand the reasoning behind these procedures.

Boeing 737-800 2010 On 22 May 2010, an Air India Express Boeing 737-800 overran the landing runway at Mangalore when attempting a go around after thrust reverser deployment following a fast and late touchdown off an unstable approach. Almost all of the 166 occupants were killed when control was lost and the aircraft crashed into a ravine off the end of the runway. It was noted a relevant factor in respect of the approach, landing and failed go around attempt was probably the effect of ‘sleep inertia’ on the Captain’s performance and judgement after a prolonged sleep en-route.

Boeing 777-300 2010 On 11 Jan 2010, an Air France Boeing 777-300ER successfully rejected a night take off from Lagos from significantly above V1 when control column pressure at rotation was perceived as abnormal. The root and secondary causes of the incident were found to be the failure of the Captain to arm the A/T during flight deck preparation and his inappropriate response to this on the take off roll. It was considered that his performance may have being an indirect consequence of his decision to take a 40 minute period of in-seat rest during the 90 minute transit stop at Lagos.


Taking into account sleep inertia is a basic thing they teach you with regard to controlled naps. It's why they tell you to nap no more than 20-30 minutes, and then spend another 20-30 minutes before taking controls again (and to be fully recovered prior top-of-descent). Not accounting for it makes it an uncontrolled nap.
IMHO, you need to go back and do the HPL and CRM courses again.

BTW, please let us know which airline you fly for, because I'm certainly going to avoid them in the future. Better a company where the pilots have the balls to admit that they need rest, than one where they would prefer to take the chance of falling asleep on short final.
 
FlapsOne
Posts: 156
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:34 pm

VSMUT wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:
If I’m fatigued I’ll go fatigued. If I haven’t slept correctly I’ll call in unfit. I will NEVER simply turn up for work thinking I can have a quick nap in order to make it home.


What if I told you that fatigue can set in during a flight?

FlapsOne wrote:
The following events all illustrate the need for flight crew to recognise the importance of a recovery period proportional to the sleep inertia generated by a nap - and thereby be able to appreciate the reasoning which underlies the procedures applied by those operators who sanction the controlled rest option.

Boeing 767-300 2011 On 14 January 2011 an Air Canada Boeing 767-300 was midway across the Atlantic Ocean eastbound at night when the First Officer, who had just woken from an exceptionally long period in-seat rest, suddenly but erroneously perceived a collision risk from oncoming traffic and without warning intervened to dive the aircraft before the Captain could stop him causing 16 occupant injuries. His behaviour was attributed to the effect of ‘sleep inertia’ following a much longer period of sleep than permitted by Air Canada procedures. It was concluded that many Air Canada pilots did not understand the reasoning behind these procedures.

Boeing 737-800 2010 On 22 May 2010, an Air India Express Boeing 737-800 overran the landing runway at Mangalore when attempting a go around after thrust reverser deployment following a fast and late touchdown off an unstable approach. Almost all of the 166 occupants were killed when control was lost and the aircraft crashed into a ravine off the end of the runway. It was noted a relevant factor in respect of the approach, landing and failed go around attempt was probably the effect of ‘sleep inertia’ on the Captain’s performance and judgement after a prolonged sleep en-route.

Boeing 777-300 2010 On 11 Jan 2010, an Air France Boeing 777-300ER successfully rejected a night take off from Lagos from significantly above V1 when control column pressure at rotation was perceived as abnormal. The root and secondary causes of the incident were found to be the failure of the Captain to arm the A/T during flight deck preparation and his inappropriate response to this on the take off roll. It was considered that his performance may have being an indirect consequence of his decision to take a 40 minute period of in-seat rest during the 90 minute transit stop at Lagos.


Taking into account sleep inertia is a basic thing they teach you with regard to controlled naps. It's why they tell you to nap no more than 20-30 minutes, and then spend another 20-30 minutes before taking controls again (and to be fully recovered prior top-of-descent). Not accounting for it makes it an uncontrolled nap.
IMHO, you need to go back and do the HPL and CRM courses again.

BTW, please let us know which airline you fly for, because I'm certainly going to avoid them in the future. Better a company where the pilots have the balls to admit that they need rest, than one where they would prefer to take the chance of falling asleep on short final.


I didn't say that it couldn't. Do not put words in my mouth. I said that if you're PLANNING on controlled rest BEFORE the flight in order to get through the duty then you should be calling in fatigued. I have no issue with people taking controlled rest in response to unforseen fatigue. I do take issue with people using it as a tool to regularly get though their rosters and duties.

My FRMS and OMA are the only sources that I require knowledge on and I'm pretty up to speed with them but thanks for the offer HPL training.

Perhaps there is a course on how not to put words in other people's mouths or how not to twist what people are saying very clearly?

Oh and bravo you my friend. You'd rather fly with airlines where pilots are rostered so hard that they feel the need to regularly sleep in flight rather than airlines that encourage roster change requests based on fatigue likely hood, allow pilots to call in fatigued without any negative action and even airlines which allow pilots not to fly simply because they didn't get enough sleep the night before? I know what I'd prefer!!!
Last edited by FlapsOne on Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
BA777FO
Posts: 347
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:37 pm

FlapsOne wrote:
We have a flag carrier pilot implying that controlled rest is just standard and in fact a requirement to do the job and fly a duty and there’s me who will suggest a roster change when I think it will be fatiguing, will refuse fatiguing duties picked up when on standby, will call unfit when required and will also go fatigued when required and I won’t simply turn up for work knowing I’ll need to sleep in the air just to get through my duty.

I know who I’d rather be flying my family around.


Where on earth did you get me saying it was a requirement? Let's not make things up now.

When you're reporting at midnight on your body clock, it's all well and good feeling okay then, but during your window of circadian low (WOCL) in 5 hours time that's quite different. It's a bit like the use of Commander's discretion to extend a duty, it's all well and good saying you feel fine now but how about 10 hours later flying a Canarsie with icy conditions at JFK at night? Great if you know how you'll feel in 12 hours time, but it's not always that straight forward.

So you're in a hotel on Saturday night, bunch of teenage kids run up and down the coridoor a few times, disturbs your rest. You've managed just an hour of pre flight sleep before your 8 hour 2 crew flight home. Are you going to feel fine to land in 10 hours in a 30 knot crosswind? Or are you going to call fatigued and cancel the flight? Or do you think you feel okay now, but at 30W if I really need a quick bit of controlled rest it might be a good idea?

Common sense isn't all that common anymore it seems.

How often do you do a 9 hour sector 2-crew followed by 24 hours rest and then an 8 hour overnight flight again 2 crew with a 5 hour timezone change? What kind of duties do you have like that?
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13967
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:39 pm

FlapsOne wrote:
This certainly implies that it’s common on this airline’s two man east coast TATL and Caribbean ops and that this particular FO hasn’t used it as a one off counter measure to unplanned and unforeseen fatigue but is using a lot more frequently which I find troubling.


I get rostered 10-20 sectors with 11-12 hrs off between days in 6 days flying different types one day off then two 16 hr ULH sectors with a 24 hr layover through 12-13 time zones. All perfectly legal according to EU-OPS rules and the rostering computer. That is not possible with your airlines Industrial agreement with their pilot union.

FlapsOne wrote:
Please provide me with a reference whereby controlled risk can be considered at the pre flight phase in order to get through a duty. I’d be highly concerned over a regulator allowing crews using fatigue mitigation such as controlled rest in order to build their lines of flying and rostering.


You have given yourself away by saying “lines of flying” in reality that is a result of your union agreement and nothing to do with the legal maximums.

The FTLs and rostering systems assume pilots are machines. They have an on/off switch and rest on command. In reality pilots have real lives, they have young families, they get married, have divorces, move house, have sick or dying parents. Any number of external stress factors which making getting to sleep at every opportunity the roster asssumes impossible.

FlapsOne wrote:
I’m EU-OPS and agree that EASA’s new FTLs are catastrophic however rules over controlled rest are clear even under EASA.


And the rules are controlled rest is perfectly acceptable.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
FlapsOne
Posts: 156
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:48 pm

BA777FO wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:
We have a flag carrier pilot implying that controlled rest is just standard and in fact a requirement to do the job and fly a duty and there’s me who will suggest a roster change when I think it will be fatiguing, will refuse fatiguing duties picked up when on standby, will call unfit when required and will also go fatigued when required and I won’t simply turn up for work knowing I’ll need to sleep in the air just to get through my duty.

I know who I’d rather be flying my family around.


Where on earth did you get me saying it was a requirement? Let's not make things up now.

When you're reporting at midnight on your body clock, it's all well and good feeling okay then, but during your window of circadian low (WOCL) in 5 hours time that's quite different. It's a bit like the use of Commander's discretion to extend a duty, it's all well and good saying you feel fine now but how about 10 hours later flying a Canarsie with icy conditions at JFK at night? Great if you know how you'll feel in 12 hours time, but it's not always that straight forward.

So you're in a hotel on Saturday night, bunch of teenage kids run up and down the coridoor a few times, disturbs your rest. You've managed just an hour of pre flight sleep before your 8 hour 2 crew flight home. Are you going to feel fine to land in 10 hours in a 30 knot crosswind? Or are you going to call fatigued and cancel the flight? Or do you think you feel okay now, but at 30W if I really need a quick bit of controlled rest it might be a good idea?

Common sense isn't all that common anymore it seems.

How often do you do a 9 hour sector 2-crew followed by 24 hours rest and then an 8 hour overnight flight again 2 crew with a 5 hour timezone change? What kind of duties do you have like that?


Then it’s simple. You aren’t fit to operate the duty. It’s an interesting place is a.net where you allude to the fact that you allow commercial pressure to influence your decision making in terms of being fit to fly whereas I don’t consider commercial pressure to influence me yet I’m the bad boy and I’m the pariah because I’d call in fatigue without thinking I’ll simply crack on and sleep if I’m tired? Too funny.
 
BA777FO
Posts: 347
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:51 pm

FlapsOne wrote:
Oh and bravo you my friend. You'd rather fly with airlines where pilots are rostered so hard that they feel the need to regularly sleep in flight rather than airlines that encourage roster change requests based on fatigue likely hood, allow pilots to call in fatigued without any negative action and even airlines which allow pilots not to fly simply because they didn't get enough sleep the night before? I know what I'd prefer!!!


It's not being rostered too hard, it's a reality of longhaul night flying across 5+ timezones that you find yourself awake during your WOCL. Should we ban all night flights?! I never go to work thinking I'll need controlled rest, but I'd rather do it than not be at my best for an approach and landing. I know that if I called in fatigued or unrested I would be supported by my company 100%. Are you aware of the effects of fatigue on performance?

It's easy for you as a shorthaul pilot on regular patterns where you can sleep during your WOCL - I never had to use controlled rest in nearly 7 years on short haul and I flew some pretty long days days and blocks of work. You're out of your depth with no experience on this issue.

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