FlapsOne
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:13 pm

Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:51 pm

zeke wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:
This certainly implies that it’s common on this airline’s two man east coast TATL and Caribbean ops and that this particular FO hasn’t used it as a one off counter measure to unplanned and unforeseen fatigue but is using a lot more frequently which I find troubling.


I get rostered 10-20 sectors with 11-12 hrs off between days in 6 days flying different types one day off then two 16 hr ULH sectors with a 24 hr layover through 12-13 time zones. All perfectly legal according to EU-OPS rules and the rostering computer. That is not possible with your airlines Industrial agreement with their pilot union.

FlapsOne wrote:
Please provide me with a reference whereby controlled risk can be considered at the pre flight phase in order to get through a duty. I’d be highly concerned over a regulator allowing crews using fatigue mitigation such as controlled rest in order to build their lines of flying and rostering.


You have given yourself away by saying “lines of flying” in reality that is a result of your union agreement and nothing to do with the legal maximums.

The FTLs and rostering systems assume pilots are machines. They have an on/off switch and rest on command. In reality pilots have real lives, they have young families, they get married, have divorces, move house, have sick or dying parents. Any number of external stress factors which making getting to sleep at every opportunity the roster asssumes impossible.

FlapsOne wrote:
I’m EU-OPS and agree that EASA’s new FTLs are catastrophic however rules over controlled rest are clear even under EASA.


And the rules are controlled rest is perfectly acceptable.


The responsibility for flying whilst well rested and not fatigued rests with you the pilot and nothing else.

EASA’s approach to controlled rest on non augmented crew flights are simple and very clear. You cannot plan on controlled rest to get through a duty or roster. Controlled rest is only for unforeseen fatigue. That is fatigue occurring after departure.
 
BA777FO
Posts: 349
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:54 pm

FlapsOne wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:
We have a flag carrier pilot implying that controlled rest is just standard and in fact a requirement to do the job and fly a duty and there’s me who will suggest a roster change when I think it will be fatiguing, will refuse fatiguing duties picked up when on standby, will call unfit when required and will also go fatigued when required and I won’t simply turn up for work knowing I’ll need to sleep in the air just to get through my duty.

I know who I’d rather be flying my family around.


Where on earth did you get me saying it was a requirement? Let's not make things up now.

When you're reporting at midnight on your body clock, it's all well and good feeling okay then, but during your window of circadian low (WOCL) in 5 hours time that's quite different. It's a bit like the use of Commander's discretion to extend a duty, it's all well and good saying you feel fine now but how about 10 hours later flying a Canarsie with icy conditions at JFK at night? Great if you know how you'll feel in 12 hours time, but it's not always that straight forward.

So you're in a hotel on Saturday night, bunch of teenage kids run up and down the coridoor a few times, disturbs your rest. You've managed just an hour of pre flight sleep before your 8 hour 2 crew flight home. Are you going to feel fine to land in 10 hours in a 30 knot crosswind? Or are you going to call fatigued and cancel the flight? Or do you think you feel okay now, but at 30W if I really need a quick bit of controlled rest it might be a good idea?

Common sense isn't all that common anymore it seems.

How often do you do a 9 hour sector 2-crew followed by 24 hours rest and then an 8 hour overnight flight again 2 crew with a 5 hour timezone change? What kind of duties do you have like that?


Then it’s simple. You aren’t fit to operate the duty. It’s an interesting place is a.net where you allude to the fact that you allow commercial pressure to influence your decision making in terms of being fit to fly whereas I don’t consider commercial pressure to influence me yet I’m the bad boy and I’m the pariah because I’d call in fatigue without thinking I’ll simply crack on and sleep if I’m tired? Too funny.


You won't operate the duty even when you feel fine at report? How many times a month do you cross the Atlantic?
 
FlapsOne
Posts: 156
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:59 pm

BA777FO wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:
BA777FO wrote:

Where on earth did you get me saying it was a requirement? Let's not make things up now.

When you're reporting at midnight on your body clock, it's all well and good feeling okay then, but during your window of circadian low (WOCL) in 5 hours time that's quite different. It's a bit like the use of Commander's discretion to extend a duty, it's all well and good saying you feel fine now but how about 10 hours later flying a Canarsie with icy conditions at JFK at night? Great if you know how you'll feel in 12 hours time, but it's not always that straight forward.

So you're in a hotel on Saturday night, bunch of teenage kids run up and down the coridoor a few times, disturbs your rest. You've managed just an hour of pre flight sleep before your 8 hour 2 crew flight home. Are you going to feel fine to land in 10 hours in a 30 knot crosswind? Or are you going to call fatigued and cancel the flight? Or do you think you feel okay now, but at 30W if I really need a quick bit of controlled rest it might be a good idea?

Common sense isn't all that common anymore it seems.

How often do you do a 9 hour sector 2-crew followed by 24 hours rest and then an 8 hour overnight flight again 2 crew with a 5 hour timezone change? What kind of duties do you have like that?


Then it’s simple. You aren’t fit to operate the duty. It’s an interesting place is a.net where you allude to the fact that you allow commercial pressure to influence your decision making in terms of being fit to fly whereas I don’t consider commercial pressure to influence me yet I’m the bad boy and I’m the pariah because I’d call in fatigue without thinking I’ll simply crack on and sleep if I’m tired? Too funny.


You won't operate the duty even when you feel fine at report? How many times a month do you cross the Atlantic?


Oh come off it. You know exactly what I’m saying. If you’re not fit on report then you’re not fit. I’ve never said that controlled rest shouldn’t be allowed. I’ve never taken it. I’ve called in fatigued or unfit prior to departure. If it occurs after daprtire then controlled rest is appropriate.

I shall bow to your utter awesomeness sir. Crossing the Atlantic in a 777 and wearing a lovely hat too (probably wearing it to Waitrose too). Who am I to compete with that? It seems that BA’s interpretation of controlled rest is different to mine and it seems that it’s used regularly which I find troubling. But I rarely fly them so I couldn’t care less if it try if I’m quite honest.
Last edited by FlapsOne on Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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zeke
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:00 pm

FlapsOne wrote:
It’s an interesting place is a.net where you allude to the fact that you allow commercial pressure to influence your decision making in terms of being fit to fly whereas I don’t consider commercial pressure to influence me yet I’m the bad boy and I’m the pariah because I’d call in fatigue without thinking I’ll simply crack on and sleep if I’m tired? Too funny.


An AME will tell you that being tired and fatigued are two different medical issues. You cannot get over from being fatigued by “simply crack on and sleep”. Fatigue can take months off work to correct.

Part of our operation is to educate pilots on induction and then periodic refreshers on fatigue management techniques. They know the difference between fatigue and being tired.

You can legally work when tired, you cannot legally work when fatigued.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
FlapsOne
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:06 pm

zeke wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:
It’s an interesting place is a.net where you allude to the fact that you allow commercial pressure to influence your decision making in terms of being fit to fly whereas I don’t consider commercial pressure to influence me yet I’m the bad boy and I’m the pariah because I’d call in fatigue without thinking I’ll simply crack on and sleep if I’m tired? Too funny.


An AME will tell you that being tired and fatigued are two different medical issues. You cannot get over from being fatigued by “simply crack on and sleep”. Fatigue can take months off work to correct.

Part of our operation is to educate pilots on induction and then periodic refreshers on fatigue management techniques. They know the difference between fatigue and being tired.

You can legally work when tired, you cannot legally work when fatigued.


Not necessarily. The UK CAA had this to say: “There is no difference between tired and fatigued, we do not use the term tired when talking about fatigue management. We describe two states as transient fatigue (one that can be alleviated by a night of good sleep) and cumulatively fatigued (one that requires a longer period of time to recover, this maybe several days or even a week of good circadian adjusted sleep opportunities).”
 
BA777FO
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:08 pm

FlapsOne wrote:
Oh come off it. You know exactly what I’m saying. If you’re not fit on report then you’re not fit. I’ve never said that controlled rest shouldn’t be allowed. I’ve never taken it. I’ve called in fatigued or unfit prior to departure. If it occurs after daprtire then controlled rest is appropriate.


You seem to be implying I'd knowingly report for a duty unfit. That's insulting and incorrect. You also seem to be talking from an inexperienced perspective. Short haul is a different kettle of fish. You get to sleep during WOCL every night regardless of how long your duty was.

FlapsOne wrote:
I shall bow to your utter awesomeness sir. Crossing the Atlantic in a 777 and wearing a lovely hat too (probably wearing it to Waitrose too). Who am I to compete with that? It seems that BA’s interpretation of controlled rest is different to mine and it seems that it’s used regularly which I find troubling. But I rarely fly them so I couldn’t care less if it try if I’m quite honest.


Wow. Can't stand a healthy debate without getting personal, huh? You must be fun to fly with. I could make a comment or two but I'll take the high ground. Good luck with easyJet or Ryanair or whoever you fly for.
 
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zeke
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:09 pm

Exactly, you can work when tired. Pilots all around the world do it every day.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
FlapsOne
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:17 pm

BA777FO wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:
Oh come off it. You know exactly what I’m saying. If you’re not fit on report then you’re not fit. I’ve never said that controlled rest shouldn’t be allowed. I’ve never taken it. I’ve called in fatigued or unfit prior to departure. If it occurs after daprtire then controlled rest is appropriate.


You seem to be implying I'd knowingly report for a duty unfit. That's insulting and incorrect. You also seem to be talking from an inexperienced perspective. Short haul is a different kettle of fish. You get to sleep during WOCL every night regardless of how long your duty was.

FlapsOne wrote:
I shall bow to your utter awesomeness sir. Crossing the Atlantic in a 777 and wearing a lovely hat too (probably wearing it to Waitrose too). Who am I to compete with that? It seems that BA’s interpretation of controlled rest is different to mine and it seems that it’s used regularly which I find troubling. But I rarely fly them so I couldn’t care less if it try if I’m quite honest.


Wow. Can't stand a healthy debate without getting personal, huh? You must be fun to fly with. I could make a comment or two but I'll take the high ground. Good luck with easyJet or Ryanair or whoever you fly for.


I’m doubt I’m the most fun to fly with but when I do fly I’m alert and fully fit and will not work or will offload myself when not fit to operate and will always give my all to keeping my passengers safe. If that requires controlled rest in future then who knows, I might just partake in it and hope I don’t end up in the Daily Mail. Enjoy BA Nige and hopefully you’ll get your command before you’re the wrong side of 50 if you aren’t already. I’ll graciously leave this to the real professionals. Happy flighting.
 
BA777FO
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:26 pm

FlapsOne wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:
Oh come off it. You know exactly what I’m saying. If you’re not fit on report then you’re not fit. I’ve never said that controlled rest shouldn’t be allowed. I’ve never taken it. I’ve called in fatigued or unfit prior to departure. If it occurs after daprtire then controlled rest is appropriate.


You seem to be implying I'd knowingly report for a duty unfit. That's insulting and incorrect. You also seem to be talking from an inexperienced perspective. Short haul is a different kettle of fish. You get to sleep during WOCL every night regardless of how long your duty was.

FlapsOne wrote:
I shall bow to your utter awesomeness sir. Crossing the Atlantic in a 777 and wearing a lovely hat too (probably wearing it to Waitrose too). Who am I to compete with that? It seems that BA’s interpretation of controlled rest is different to mine and it seems that it’s used regularly which I find troubling. But I rarely fly them so I couldn’t care less if it try if I’m quite honest.


Wow. Can't stand a healthy debate without getting personal, huh? You must be fun to fly with. I could make a comment or two but I'll take the high ground. Good luck with easyJet or Ryanair or whoever you fly for.


I’m doubt I’m the most fun to fly with but when I do fly I’m alert and fully fit and will not work or will offload myself when not fit to operate and will always give my all to keeping my passengers safe. If that requires controlled rest in future then who knows, I might just partake in it and hope I don’t end up in the Daily Mail. Enjoy BA Nige and hopefully you’ll get your command before you’re the wrong side of 50 if you aren’t already. I’ll graciously leave this to the real professionals. Happy flighting.


You really are a barrel of laughs! Funnily enough, in 11 years I've always reported for work fully fit and always fly professionally safely, just as we all try and do.

BA is great, I could have an A320 command if I wanted it, thanks, but would rather take the extra few days off a month on longhaul for the few extra pounds you end up earning with the personal allowance taper. It's great that I have that choice. With expansion and part time work I'll have a longhaul command in about 8 years, not a bad place to spend the last 25 years of my career.

This has run its course though. Those with longhaul experience all seem to have a much more common sense approach to it all.
 
Seat0F
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:22 pm

Wow, what a total idiot FlapsOne is. Hasn’t ever in his/her life flown 1 minute of longhaul flying yet feels to need to lecture others on how to rest.

Just... wow!

Do you also lecture doctors on how to do their job?

Shorthaul and longhaul flying are two totally different ball games when it comes to rest, sleep and how to manage it. If you had any real experience to bring to this debate you would know that. But you don’t have the required experience and as such are coming across as a fool.

(And yes I have done years of both shorthaul and longhaul. I never once tool controlled rest on shorthaul as despite doing 6 days blocks of up to 13 hour days I never needed to, but I do so as often as is required on longhaul).
 
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Revelation
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:33 pm

BA777FO wrote:
So you're in a hotel on Saturday night, bunch of teenage kids run up and down the coridoor a few times, disturbs your rest. You've managed just an hour of pre flight sleep before your 8 hour 2 crew flight home. Are you going to feel fine to land in 10 hours in a 30 knot crosswind? Or are you going to call fatigued and cancel the flight? Or do you think you feel okay now, but at 30W if I really need a quick bit of controlled rest it might be a good idea?

Common sense isn't all that common anymore it seems.

My observation: What one person calls "common sense" another calls "normalization of deviance"...
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
emiratesdriver
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:57 pm

Flaps one, I suggest you take a deep breath and get over yourself. Your comment relating to the fee collection team at the Belgrano are mere semantics designed by the CAA to simplify the language rather than address the problem, how do I know? Because I was one who was heavily involved in a previous life with regards to specific FRMS tools in both the military and civilian context.
Please don’t embarrass yourself with respect to your absent Long Haul experience, no one has all the answers but some of us know what works for us, controlled rest is one of those tools to help that is handy to have in the toolbox.
Spoken as a former Military/UK charter and now ME slave.
Get over it, you don’t know..what you don’t know.
 
VSMUT
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:12 pm

BA777FO wrote:
It's not being rostered too hard, it's a reality of longhaul night flying across 5+ timezones that you find yourself awake during your WOCL. Should we ban all night flights?! I never go to work thinking I'll need controlled rest, but I'd rather do it than not be at my best for an approach and landing. I know that if I called in fatigued or unrested I would be supported by my company 100%. Are you aware of the effects of fatigue on performance?

It's easy for you as a shorthaul pilot on regular patterns where you can sleep during your WOCL - I never had to use controlled rest in nearly 7 years on short haul and I flew some pretty long days days and blocks of work. You're out of your depth with no experience on this issue.


:checkmark:

I as a turboprop pilot have had to deal with controlled rests innumerable times, sometimes even on a daily basis. Crossing time-zones is extremely demanding. A "simple" 11 hour eastbound flight on the ATR means getting up at 5 in the morning, and going to bed at midnight the next place. After 11 hours airborne.

And don't even get me started on intra-European night time cargo-feeder flights. Those are impossible for 99% without a rest. And forget about calling fatigued. I did that with the second biggest airline in Ireland once, and they were pretty clear about that being the one and only time I did that... (fatigue being caused by noisy children in the corridor and the cleaning maid barging in despite the "do not disturb" sign)
 
BA777FO
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:51 pm

Revelation wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
So you're in a hotel on Saturday night, bunch of teenage kids run up and down the coridoor a few times, disturbs your rest. You've managed just an hour of pre flight sleep before your 8 hour 2 crew flight home. Are you going to feel fine to land in 10 hours in a 30 knot crosswind? Or are you going to call fatigued and cancel the flight? Or do you think you feel okay now, but at 30W if I really need a quick bit of controlled rest it might be a good idea?

Common sense isn't all that common anymore it seems.

My observation: What one person calls "common sense" another calls "normalization of deviance"...


Normalization of deviance...you've never operated 2 crew longhaul flights across several time zones, have you? There's no deviance about it, to not use it when required would detrimental. Studies show that its use increase levels of alertneas during the later phase of flight after top of descent when used appropriately.
 
Max Q
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:49 am

BA777FO wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Isn't controlled rest practiced by pilots around the globe?


I will NEVER NEVER NEVER take controlled rest. If I need it I’ll offload myself downroute. I will not allow some idiot to take a photo of me which can be used against me or my airline in years to follow. I will not allow my napping face to be paraded around the world for some kid to get his 15 seconds of fame for ‘breaking’ the story.


Guess you'll never fly long haul, huh?! 2 crew overnight UVF-LGW? 2 crew ATL-LHR? or 2 crew MCO-LGW? Good luck starting at midnight on your body clock and being alert enough the following morning to land an aircraft on minimums in fog/snow/35knot crosswinds. Controlled rest, when carried out properly, significantly enhances safety.

It's times like this that make me glad I work for a thoroughly safety-oriented airline in the UK rather than taking more money and flying somewhere with a total disregard for it, and CRM especially, in China or the Middle East. Flying is a team game - I'd hate to fly somewhere where I have to be constantly worried about someone stabbing me in the back.




Very well said
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society
 
planesarecool
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:05 am

FlapsOne wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Isn't controlled rest practiced by pilots around the globe?


I will NEVER NEVER NEVER take controlled rest. If I need it I’ll offload myself downroute. I will not allow some idiot to take a photo of me which can be used against me or my airline in years to follow. I will not allow my napping face to be paraded around the world for some kid to get his 15 seconds of fame for ‘breaking’ the story.


With the attitude you've shown in this thread, I understand your concern. Although there's probably more than just "some kid to get his 15 seconds of fame" queuing up to do anything to get you off the line and into a disciplinary meeting in Luton.

God help any FO, cabin crew or passengers stuck on a Red Sea flight with you. Your superior fatigue management skills are clearly offset by your lack of CRM and personal skills.

In the real world, we regularly do 11-12 hour sectors, crossing 5-7 time zones in a two crew set up - the benefit being the 72 hour minimum acclimatisation period down route. Controlled rest can make a huge difference to alertness levels, particularly once the sun comes up but your body thinks it's still midnight.
 
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zeke
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:52 am

BA777FO wrote:
Normalization of deviance....


I would think not using controlled rest when needed is the real deviance to the industry best practice. Controlled rest is a standard practice outlined in ICAO Doc 9966 “Manual for the Oversight of Fatigue Management Approaches” and the “Fatigue Management Guide for Airline Operators”


https://www.icao.int/safety/fatiguemana ... ons_en.pdf

https://www.icao.int/safety/fatiguemana ... d%20(Final)%20EN.pdf
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
thepinkmachine
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:08 am

I can only confirm what others said above - once you start flying Longhaul you discover completely new levels of fatigue - and no, flying 4 sectors/day LCC style, while tiring, come nowhere near that.

Fortunately, my employer allows controlled rest, and I don’t hesitate to use it.

Previously, however, I’ve flown for an airline that didn’t. My solution - let the F/O sleep first. If he snitched on me, he’d be screwed too... :mrgreen:
 
Max Q
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:14 am

My briefing to the FO when napping in the seat is ‘don’t let me wake up and catch you sleeping’
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society
 
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Revelation
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:46 pm

BA777FO wrote:
Revelation wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
So you're in a hotel on Saturday night, bunch of teenage kids run up and down the coridoor a few times, disturbs your rest. You've managed just an hour of pre flight sleep before your 8 hour 2 crew flight home. Are you going to feel fine to land in 10 hours in a 30 knot crosswind? Or are you going to call fatigued and cancel the flight? Or do you think you feel okay now, but at 30W if I really need a quick bit of controlled rest it might be a good idea?

Common sense isn't all that common anymore it seems.

My observation: What one person calls "common sense" another calls "normalization of deviance"...

Normalization of deviance...you've never operated 2 crew longhaul flights across several time zones, have you? There's no deviance about it, to not use it when required would detrimental. Studies show that its use increase levels of alertneas during the later phase of flight after top of descent when used appropriately.

You are asserting that fatigue should be expected (because 2 crew longhaul flights across several time zones are indeed common), whereas the guidelines (rules?) given ( ref: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1416341#p21121831 ) say that it should only be used in cases of unexpected fatigue.

Therefore IMO you are normalizing deviance. The right solution IMO would be proper rostering, not taking a kip during flight.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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zeke
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:26 pm

Revelation wrote:
Therefore IMO you are normalizing deviance. The right solution IMO would be proper rostering, not taking a kip during flight.


Unfortunately passengers and cargo don’t give a rats **** if pilots get proper rosters. The accountants look at ways to generate the most yield, and if your not rostering your crews up against the legal maximums then your whole operation is at a competitive disadvantage.

Passengers just want cheap tickets. Nothing will change until a number of significant accidents occur.

Most of the fatigue rules in place around the world have their origins from the RAF bomber command in WW2. Nothing scientific about it, people would fly 25 missions, not 25 years.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
BA777FO
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:55 pm

Revelation wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
Revelation wrote:
My observation: What one person calls "common sense" another calls "normalization of deviance"...

Normalization of deviance...you've never operated 2 crew longhaul flights across several time zones, have you? There's no deviance about it, to not use it when required would detrimental. Studies show that its use increase levels of alertneas during the later phase of flight after top of descent when used appropriately.

You are asserting that fatigue should be expected (because 2 crew longhaul flights across several time zones are indeed common), whereas the guidelines (rules?) given ( ref: https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtop ... #p21121831 ) say that it should only be used in cases of unexpected fatigue.

Therefore IMO you are normalizing deviance. The right solution IMO would be proper rostering, not taking a kip during flight.


Again, you are speaking from a point of ignorance. ICAO does not set rules, it attempts to standardise the industry across countries - however, each state will set its own procedures to be followed and will publish its own AIP and have, in this case, its own Flight Time Limitation (FTL) ruleset. Within this ruleset the national civil aviation authorities will approve an operators Operating Manuals that prescribe procedures to be adopted in operating onboard the aircraft. Therefore not only do many states permit controlled rest, many actively encourage it when used in accordance with the proper procedure for its use.

It is a scientific fact that if you are awake during your WOCL and/or experience extended periods of wakefulness your ability to perform complex tasks will reduce. There is a whole wealth of evidence proving the beneficial effects of properly used controlled rest. Operators with significant long haul experience will often involve an element of training around the proper use of controlled rest during SEP or CRM courses.

For completeness, ICAO (2015) actually states:
"Controlled rest on the flight deck may be used at the discretion of the captain to manage both unex-
pected fatigue and to reduce the risk of fatigue during higher workload periods later in the flight."

So no, it's not a normalisation of deviance, its the appropriate and scientifically proven beneficial method of improving alertness during the latter stages of a long duty.

This is one of those issues where the general public loves to have an opinion without having had extensive training on the issue and speak largely from an ignorance of the science and a lack of understanding of the legal framework governing aviation.

I'd much rather fly for an airline that has a scientifc-based approach to fatigue management than one where bunk time is discounted from annual total hours limits and routinely puts pressure on its pilots to fly duties when unfit. The public doesn't see that side of things though.
 
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FredrikHAD
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:52 pm

Max Q wrote:
My briefing to the FO when napping in the seat is ‘don’t let me wake up and catch you sleeping’

...with a fighter pilot watching the two of you!
 
emiratesdriver
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Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:58 am

I’m afraid I’m not as eloquent these days when it comes to pointing out idiotic or misinformed comments or opinions.
@revelation, you appear to have little understanding of how the rules are written, interpreted or applied...so in the case of my employer, let me enlighten and inform you.
I am no permitted to plan in the pre-flight stage “controlled rest”. That’s it, so what does plan mean? It means pretty much what you decide it means, nothing more nothing less, in practice it’s normally...I’ll go first or second.
BTW our ops manual is approved in all the territories we operate too.
 
worldranger
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:12 pm

Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:08 pm

FlapsOne wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:
We have a flag carrier pilot implying that controlled rest is just standard and in fact a requirement to do the job and fly a duty and there’s me who will suggest a roster change when I think it will be fatiguing, will refuse fatiguing duties picked up when on standby, will call unfit when required and will also go fatigued when required and I won’t simply turn up for work knowing I’ll need to sleep in the air just to get through my duty.

I know who I’d rather be flying my family around.


Where on earth did you get me saying it was a requirement? Let's not make things up now.

When you're reporting at midnight on your body clock, it's all well and good feeling okay then, but during your window of circadian low (WOCL) in 5 hours time that's quite different. It's a bit like the use of Commander's discretion to extend a duty, it's all well and good saying you feel fine now but how about 10 hours later flying a Canarsie with icy conditions at JFK at night? Great if you know how you'll feel in 12 hours time, but it's not always that straight forward.

So you're in a hotel on Saturday night, bunch of teenage kids run up and down the coridoor a few times, disturbs your rest. You've managed just an hour of pre flight sleep before your 8 hour 2 crew flight home. Are you going to feel fine to land in 10 hours in a 30 knot crosswind? Or are you going to call fatigued and cancel the flight? Or do you think you feel okay now, but at 30W if I really need a quick bit of controlled rest it might be a good idea?

Common sense isn't all that common anymore it seems.

How often do you do a 9 hour sector 2-crew followed by 24 hours rest and then an 8 hour overnight flight again 2 crew with a 5 hour timezone change? What kind of duties do you have like that?


Then it’s simple. You aren’t fit to operate the duty. It’s an interesting place is a.net where you allude to the fact that you allow commercial pressure to influence your decision making in terms of being fit to fly whereas I don’t consider commercial pressure to influence me yet I’m the bad boy and I’m the pariah because I’d call in fatigue without thinking I’ll simply crack on and sleep if I’m tired? Too funny.


The regulators and managers of multiple long haul operators understand the logic and safety in controllled rest. Your myopic argument of ‘off loading’ yourself if you’re too tired reflects that you haven’t worked in an a long haul airlines that utilizes controlled rest and it’s defined requirements.

I don’t know a single pilot that came from non controlled rest carriers to the two long haul carriers that I’ve worked for - that think controlled rest is a bad idea.

Once you have lived both lives then you would be qualified to have such a strong opinion otherwise you’re essentially writing a review on a book you haven’t read.
 
Yossarian22
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:25 am

Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:50 pm

As a passenger who has traveled several 12-14 hour sectors, I don’t know how pilots do it. When I get off a long flight I feel unfit to drive a car. I know there are augmented crews and rest areas, but sleeping on command is not viable for everyone. I imagine, that controlled rest is a must.
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 1778
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: China Airlines Pilot Sleeps On Duty

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:57 pm

zeke wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Therefore IMO you are normalizing deviance. The right solution IMO would be proper rostering, not taking a kip during flight.

Unfortunately passengers and cargo don’t give a rats **** if pilots get proper rosters. The accountants look at ways to generate the most yield, and if your not rostering your crews up against the legal maximums then your whole operation is at a competitive disadvantage.

Passengers just want cheap tickets. Nothing will change until a number of significant accidents occur.

Most of the fatigue rules in place around the world have their origins from the RAF bomber command in WW2. Nothing scientific about it, people would fly 25 missions, not 25 years.

In the USAAF, a tour of duty was indeed 25 ops.
In the RAF it was 30. On top of that you could volunteer for a second tour. Some even opted for a third tour (see below)

As portrayed in two films, the crew of the Memphis Belle were celebrated after they completed a full tour, retiring back to the US as heroes.

On 4 October 1944, a year after the Dambusters Raid, Wing Cdr Guy Gibson began a speaking tour of the United States. He attended a major Press Conference at the offices of the British Information Service in New York on 7 October. This was "at a time when the first American airmen were coming home 'tour expired' after 25 operations. During questions one young lady asked, 'Wing Commander Gibson, how many operations have you been on over Germany?'
He replied, 'One hundred and seventy-four.' There was a stunned silence

As for tiredness and fatigue, in WWII there was always plenty of Benzedrine. :crazy:
Nothing to see here; move along please.

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