ktof
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BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:13 pm

This video has been circulating on social media this afternoon of BA492 performing what looks to be a rather unstable go-around whilst attempting to land at Gibraltar this afternoon.

Two videos linked below, one from the ground and the other from on board.

I'm sure the pilots had everything under control but I've certainly never seen anything like this before on a commercial airliner.


Ground:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBkuHpaYY8g

Onboard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydxU7DddmbE
 
RalXWB
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:27 pm

Looks like the pilot is waving with the wings...Was it a retirement flight?
 
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zeke
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:28 pm

Sure it’s not a photoshop job ?
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
fcogafa
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:28 pm

It is not unusual for GIB flights to divert to AGP due to winds
 
ktof
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:32 pm

zeke wrote:
Sure it’s not a photoshop job ?


100%

Do a quick search on Twitter for BA492, there are a few more video angles of the same incident.
 
D L X
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:46 pm

zeke wrote:
Sure it’s not a photoshop job ?

That would be one HELL of a photoshop job, complete with interior views as well.

What say you, as a pilot, when you see that? (I'm guessing that if you thought it might be photoshopped, you were as amazed by it as I was.)
 
buzzard302
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:48 pm

That is pretty insane looking. I'm surprised there was not more passenger chatter in the cabin video.
 
BaBaby
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:51 pm

Looks like pilot induced occilation from my uneducated point if view
737,747,757,767,777,DC-10,L1011,Military VC-10,Tristar,Chinook,Dominie,Grob Tutor
 
digitalcloud
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:53 pm

fcogafa wrote:
It is not unusual for GIB flights to divert to AGP due to winds


I don't think that's what is shocking people.
 
glideslope900
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:58 pm

ktof wrote:
This video has been circulating on social media this afternoon of BA492 performing what looks to be a rather unstable go-around whilst attempting to land at Gibraltar this afternoon.

Two videos linked below, one from the ground and the other from on board.

I'm sure the pilots had everything under control but I've certainly never seen anything like this before on a commercial airliner.


Ground:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBkuHpaYY8g

Onboard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydxU7DddmbE



Looks like dutch roll. Bizarre. A pilot would not do this intentionally. Perhaps they almost stalled?
 
arfbool
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:04 pm

I'm dizzy watching that.
 
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zeke
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:08 pm

D L X wrote:
That would be one HELL of a photoshop job, complete with interior views as well.

What say you, as a pilot, when you see that? (I'm guessing that if you thought it might be photoshopped, you were as amazed by it as I was.)


Reminds me of this

https://youtu.be/9mMLvNxHyuM
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
D L X
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:19 pm

zeke wrote:
D L X wrote:
That would be one HELL of a photoshop job, complete with interior views as well.

What say you, as a pilot, when you see that? (I'm guessing that if you thought it might be photoshopped, you were as amazed by it as I was.)


Reminds me of this

https://youtu.be/9mMLvNxHyuM

Not convinced, huh?
 
PixelPilot
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:20 pm

That looks pretty intense.
I hope we get to know what was the cause.
 
D L X
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:27 pm

Here's the FR24 data.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 2#1f9ce70e

Check out the minimum speed before the go-around: 115 kts at 600 feet.

Umm, that's pretty low. Granted, it's ground speed, but that would mean you'd need a good 40kt headwind to not be stalling.
 
glideslope900
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:28 pm

D L X wrote:
Here's the FR24 data.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 2#1f9ce70e

Check out the minimum speed before the go-around: 115 kts at 600 feet.

Umm, that's pretty low. Granted, it's ground speed, but that would mean you'd need a good 40kt headwind to not be stalling.


Stall was my first thought...this was almost a tragedy.
 
NoTime
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:28 pm

BaBaby wrote:
Looks like pilot induced occilation from my uneducated point if view


Agreed. I don't know the details about the various control modes/laws, but this looks like the pilot fighting the computer for a few seconds...?

Glad they got it under control and everyone is safe.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:30 pm

That must have been fun for everyone on board lol
@DadCelo
 
ptwings
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:53 pm

D L X wrote:
Here's the FR24 data.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 2#1f9ce70e
Check out the minimum speed before the go-around: 115 kts at 600 feet.
Umm, that's pretty low. Granted, it's ground speed, but that would mean you'd need a good 40kt headwind to not be stalling.


You can't always trust FR24 speeds at this flight phase because often they are extrapolated
Video seems some time after the go-around during climb.
Gibraltar can be a tricky airport as the "rock" generate montain-waves and turbulence.
Maybe they've hit by a strong "rotor" and some over-correction was in place. Glad they managed to stabilize.
 
Edfromlondon
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:34 pm

I was on the plane so definitely not a photoshop.
I’ve had a few interesting landings at Gibraltar but this was different.
I’m very interested in any explanation.
Regards
Ed
 
marcogr12
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:45 pm

glideslope900 wrote:
ktof wrote:
This video has been circulating on social media this afternoon of BA492 performing what looks to be a rather unstable go-around whilst attempting to land at Gibraltar this afternoon.

Two videos linked below, one from the ground and the other from on board.

I'm sure the pilots had everything under control but I've certainly never seen anything like this before on a commercial airliner.


Ground:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBkuHpaYY8g

Onboard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydxU7DddmbE



Looks like dutch roll. Bizarre. A pilot would not do this intentionally. Perhaps they almost stalled?


Ohmy!!! It would be adviseable not to have a meal on-board on such a windy day for those with a sensitive stomach... :o :ill: Isn't this kind of problem with crosswinds in GIB similar to the one pilots face flying to Madeira?
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
dynamo12
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:48 pm

Not aware of a weather phenomenon that would lead to that type of oscillation

Are they sure this wasn't a pilot induced oscillation. The ailerons looked like they might have been driving some of this from the internal view.

Weird that this is being described as a weather thing, and if so, I'm super curious what weather effect leads to this.
 
george77300
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:02 pm

D L X wrote:
Here's the FR24 data.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 2#1f9ce70e

Check out the minimum speed before the go-around: 115 kts at 600 feet.

Umm, that's pretty low. Granted, it's ground speed, but that would mean you'd need a good 40kt headwind to not be stalling.


ptwings wrote:
D L X wrote:
Here's the FR24 data.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 2#1f9ce70e
Check out the minimum speed before the go-around: 115 kts at 600 feet.
Umm, that's pretty low. Granted, it's ground speed, but that would mean you'd need a good 40kt headwind to not be stalling.


You can't always trust FR24 speeds at this flight phase because often they are extrapolated
Video seems some time after the go-around during climb.
Gibraltar can be a tricky airport as the "rock" generate montain-waves and turbulence.
Maybe they've hit by a strong "rotor" and some over-correction was in place. Glad they managed to stabilize.


165 knots is waaaaayyyy above stall speeds. I just got the manuals out.

Full Flap, Gear Down even at MLW of 67.4t (which it won't be near after 3 hours to GIB), the stall speed is 112kts.

If the weight drops the stall speed drops. 65t - 110kts, 60t - 105kts, 55t - 101kts, 50t - 96kts.

Combine this witha wind speed of 23kts gusting 33kts. The aircraft was nowhere near a stall. Also FR24 data (as others mentioned) is not very accurate especially at that height as it is purely extrapolated from to position reports with the time to get between them. In the take off and landing phase the speed data is very inaccurate.
 
ktof
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:05 pm

Another onboard view here, the oscillating lasted around 20 - 30 seconds with a steep climb.

Although the steep climb may be accentuated in the video by the camera.

https://youtu.be/78ZDaQ0UYZg
 
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CLTRampRat
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:06 pm

Are they camping because that’s in tents.
 
alric8
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:17 pm

I think the plane was hit with a bit of a crosswind and the pilots made an error in correcting it, leading to that roll.
 
glideslope900
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:32 pm

dynamo12 wrote:
Not aware of a weather phenomenon that would lead to that type of oscillation

Are they sure this wasn't a pilot induced oscillation. The ailerons looked like they might have been driving some of this from the internal view.

Weird that this is being described as a weather thing, and if so, I'm super curious what weather effect leads to this.


The ailerons were trying to counteract the rolling...definitely not weather induced. My guess is they were on the verge of stalling. Which actually could be caused by decreasing performance due to windshear.
 
D L X
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:39 pm

george77300 wrote:

165 knots is waaaaayyyy above stall speeds. I just got the manuals out.



115 kts, not 165kts. You have to admit, that's getting close. I'll buy that FR24 is not gospel, but multiple readings at 115kts suggest that the true speed was near 115kts.


Full Flap, Gear Down even at MLW of 67.4t (which it won't be near after 3 hours to GIB), the stall speed is 112kts.


Question, since I'm not a pilot -- when the winds are gusty, wouldn't you want a higher speed? My thinking is that a gust would give a welcome boost to the IAS, but the gust going away, or worse, a change in wind direction, could leave you suddenly with a lot less speed over the stall speed left to work with. Especially at low altitude.

Looking at the FR24 again (I know! I know!) They got all the way down to 25 feet for a moment. That sounds to me that they might have even contacted the runway before lifting off again.

Perhaps EdfromLondon can elucidate, since he was on the flight. Did you touch down then go up again? Was the yawing occurring before or after you went back up or both?
 
Adipocere
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:55 pm

They just flew into wake turbulence coming off the Rock of Gibraltar. Depending on the direction of wind the rock must be capable of sending out some immense vortices.
 
mm320cap
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:56 pm

From the second video it looks like they got whacked with some sort of rotor wave on short final. My guess is this started a PIO, which started to compound. In the A320, the flight control laws (in normal law) will keep the roll at a “comfortable” rate (1G if I remember?) which makes it prone to PIO, particular at landing speeds where the control effectiveness is lower. As a 16 year A320 Captain, I’ve experienced some pretty significant PIO’s, but this one is really something.

As far as the speed goes, 115 ground speed isn’t out of the question. With a 30 knot headwind that would make the airspeed 145. Mini GS will try to add more speed if it’s detecting that headwind, but in a shifting wind sometimes it takes awhile for the speed to increase once it senses the increased headwind.

From the video it didn’t look like they ever got down to the ground, so I don’t think they touched down
 
Calpe
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:02 pm

D L X wrote:
george77300 wrote:

Looking at the FR24 again (I know! I know!) They got all the way down to 25 feet for a moment. That sounds to me that they might have even contacted the runway before lifting off again.

Perhaps EdfromLondon can elucidate, since he was on the flight. Did you touch down then go up again? Was the yawing occurring before or after you went back up or both?


Not that I am any expert at all on FR24 data but if I would be dubious of it if it says that the flight descended to 25ft as knowing GIB reasonably well having landed there several times from the west as in the video, at the point of the go around you would still be a at least a couple of hundred feet up and you can see in the most recent video from onboard that they dont get that close to the ground either.

Anyway, one hell of a scary looking landing/go around and I certainly wouldn’t have wanted to be a passenger on board!
 
hiflyeras
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:03 pm

Interesting to read what might have caused this...my first thought was poor airmanship that could have ended very badly.
 
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shamrock350
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:16 pm

ktof wrote:
Another onboard view here, the oscillating lasted around 20 - 30 seconds with a steep climb.

Although the steep climb may be accentuated in the video by the camera.

https://youtu.be/78ZDaQ0UYZg

I would have filled the sick bag twice over!

Crosswinds are one thing but this was wild, reminds me of that TU-154 loss of control a few years ago.
 
SeaKing4
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:18 pm

Well here is the I thought I was going to Die story: https://news.sky.com/story/i-said-my-fi ... r-11648022
 
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shamrock350
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:30 pm

SeaKing4 wrote:
Well here is the I thought I was going to Die story: https://news.sky.com/story/i-said-my-fi ... r-11648022

In fairness I'd probably be thinking the same, that was a bit more than your average crosswind go around.
 
uta999
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:31 pm

Wasn’t an Airbus filmed from the ground over Paris years ago, showing exactly the same oscillation and almost loss of control?

This looks the same but much nearer the ground.
Your computer just got better
 
Philbky
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:45 pm

You are thinking of the TAROM A310 over Paris
 
george77300
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:45 pm

D L X wrote:

Looking at the FR24 again (I know! I know!) They got all the way down to 25 feet for a moment. That sounds to me that they might have even contacted the runway before lifting off again.




This video is best to see height: https://youtu.be/78ZDaQ0UYZg

The aircraft was go around well before being over the runway. They were still at a few hundred feet minimum at the lowest point. As mentioned before FR24 is extrapolated data that can lag behind. It often will show lower than normal in the event of a go around as they will extrapolate the past data as assume it’s still descending when it isn’t. It will take seconds to catch up and by that point the data will be inaccurate. It will show a later go around point both in terms of location and at a lower height than reality.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:01 pm

mm320cap wrote:
From the second video it looks like they got whacked with some sort of rotor wave on short final. My guess is this started a PIO, which started to compound. In the A320, the flight control laws (in normal law) will keep the roll at a “comfortable” rate (1G if I remember?) which makes it prone to PIO, particular at landing speeds where the control effectiveness is lower. As a 16 year A320 Captain, I’ve experienced some pretty significant PIO’s, but this one is really something.

As far as the speed goes, 115 ground speed isn’t out of the question. With a 30 knot headwind that would make the airspeed 145. Mini GS will try to add more speed if it’s detecting that headwind, but in a shifting wind sometimes it takes awhile for the speed to increase once it senses the increased headwind.

From the video it didn’t look like they ever got down to the ground, so I don’t think they touched down


What is PIO?
My Instagram Account: Instagram
 
RobertPhoenix
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:09 pm

Looking at the two videos from within the cabin, I would say this is a real life demonstration of Keep calm and carry on. After the initial surprise there was laughter in the cabin !
 
trnswrld
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:14 pm

Good grief that’s nuts. I hate to say this, but that looks 100% pilot induced. From the cabin views you even see the control surfaces making the plane do exactly what it’s being controlled to do.
Watching again that is just bizarre. Could have that airplane during that initial jolt have been almost “confused” and the pilots were fighting the computers or something?!
Last edited by trnswrld on Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Edfromlondon
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:14 pm

I didn’t have the best of views but my impression was that the landing was aborted well before the runway.
It seems a pity that flight data isn’t shared in cases of abortive landings or perhaps it is just not public.
 
LAXBUR
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:16 pm

RobertPhoenix wrote:
Looking at the two videos from within the cabin, I would say this is a real life demonstration of Keep calm and carry on. After the initial surprise there was laughter in the cabin !


I have no insight on this incident but I am shocked at the perceived calmness in the cabin. I have a feeling if this was a plane full of Americans there would have been a lot more drama. And perhaps the flight had many people accustom to landing at what appears to be a challenging airport.
 
Bricktop
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:17 pm

DLHAM wrote:
mm320cap wrote:
From the second video it looks like they got whacked with some sort of rotor wave on short final. My guess is this started a PIO, which started to compound. In the A320, the flight control laws (in normal law) will keep the roll at a “comfortable” rate (1G if I remember?) which makes it prone to PIO, particular at landing speeds where the control effectiveness is lower. As a 16 year A320 Captain, I’ve experienced some pretty significant PIO’s, but this one is really something.

As far as the speed goes, 115 ground speed isn’t out of the question. With a 30 knot headwind that would make the airspeed 145. Mini GS will try to add more speed if it’s detecting that headwind, but in a shifting wind sometimes it takes awhile for the speed to increase once it senses the increased headwind.

From the video it didn’t look like they ever got down to the ground, so I don’t think they touched down


What is PIO?

Pilot induced oscillation.
 
Edfromlondon
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:39 pm

Any idea why the plane continued oscillating well after the climb began?
It seemed very even if that makes sense (sorry just a passenger) perhaps that’s normal.
 
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Erebus
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:42 pm

zeke wrote:
Reminds me of this

https://youtu.be/9mMLvNxHyuM


Reminded me of this more!

https://youtu.be/AgvzhJpyn10

ktof wrote:
Another onboard view here, the oscillating lasted around 20 - 30 seconds with a steep climb.

Although the steep climb may be accentuated in the video by the camera.

https://youtu.be/78ZDaQ0UYZg


Passenger reactions were mildly amusing but nice to see no one screamed their heads off. :silly:
 
D L X
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:42 pm

george77300 wrote:
D L X wrote:

Looking at the FR24 again (I know! I know!) They got all the way down to 25 feet for a moment. That sounds to me that they might have even contacted the runway before lifting off again.




This video is best to see height: https://youtu.be/78ZDaQ0UYZg

The aircraft was go around well before being over the runway. They were still at a few hundred feet minimum at the lowest point. As mentioned before FR24 is extrapolated data that can lag behind. It often will show lower than normal in the event of a go around as they will extrapolate the past data as assume it’s still descending when it isn’t. It will take seconds to catch up and by that point the data will be inaccurate. It will show a later go around point both in terms of location and at a lower height than reality.

Thank you for that video!

Also, holy smokes! If we were wondering why there wasn’t an energetic response from the passengers, there it was.

Though I imagine Gibraltans are used to more exciting approaches than other people.
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:48 pm

I have to admit I almost didn’t click it as I assumed it was click bait crap from a 30 degree BHX flight doing a go around again.

This was way different. Never seen that for that long of a duration. Sure a wing dip, over correction, wing level from time to time. But this had quite a few of them for an extended period of time. I probably would have gotten a bit worried on this flight after the first three or so.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
itisi
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:50 pm

zeke wrote:
D L X wrote:
That would be one HELL of a photoshop job, complete with interior views as well.

What say you, as a pilot, when you see that? (I'm guessing that if you thought it might be photoshopped, you were as amazed by it as I was.)


Reminds me of this

https://youtu.be/9mMLvNxHyuM


Reminds me of the KA at Kai Tak!!
737-300/400/500 ... are NOT classics :)
 
ptwings
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Re: BA492 Unstable Go-Around at GIB / Diverted to AGP

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:52 pm

RobertPhoenix wrote:
After the initial surprise there was laughter in the cabin !


Nervous laughter

..suggests that laughter is used as a defense mechanism used to guard against overwhelming anxiety. Laughter often diminishes the suffering associated with a traumatic event
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nervous_laughter

This may explain why some psychologists classify humor as one of the "mature" defense mechanisms we invoke to guard ourselves against overwhelming anxiety (as compared to the "psychotic," "immature," and "neurotic" defense mechanisms). Being able to laugh at traumatic events in our own lives doesn't cause us to ignore them, but instead seems to prepare us to endure them.
https://psychology.stackexchange.com/qu ... situations

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