blueflyer
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US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:12 pm

The restriction is overtly aimed at pressuring the EU into implementing an agreement aligning EU and US regulations on the use of wet-leases by carriers in TATL traffic. Under the DOT order, wet-lease contracts by EU carriers would be limited to a period of 14 months. Current EU regulations limit wet-lease contracts for US carriers for a period of 7 months renewable once, while the US has no time restrictions for EU carriers.

The US and the EU have been negotiating an alignment of their regulations since 2012, and the EU agreed in February 2018 to drop restrictions altogether, but the agreement has yet to be implemented. To force the EU’s hand, the DOT will now enforce a 14-month limit. All current wet-lease authorizations granted by the DOT to European carriers will end March 30, 2019, or 14 months after their approval, whichever is later. In case the EU doesn’t get the message, the show cause order states the US will revert to its current position as soon as the EU implements the 2018 agreement.

The full list of affected carriers is in the show cause order. It notably includes Lufthansa, Austrian, and Aer Lingus.

https://www.regulations.gov/document?D= ... -0031-0001
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kiowa
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:27 pm

Norweigion too I believe
 
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Mortyman
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:52 pm

kiowa wrote:
Norweigion too I believe



Can't see Norwegian on the list, no
 
Someone83
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:56 pm

What will be the actual effect be after this?
 
JAAlbert
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:58 pm

I read the OSC which states the current EU-wet lease program puts US airlines at a competitive disadvantage, but doesn't explain why.

What is the problem with the wet leases between the two continents? The OSC names several air carriers, how do wet leases involving the named airlines effect US carriers?
 
bigjku
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:02 pm

JAAlbert wrote:
I read the OSC which states the current EU-wet lease program puts US airlines at a competitive disadvantage, but doesn't explain why.

What is the problem with the wet leases between the two continents? The OSC names several air carriers, how do wet leases involving the named airlines effect US carriers?


While this is interesting informationally does anyone really need to know much beyond the fact that the EU restricts for US carriers what it and the US allow for European ones?
 
mickster
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:05 pm

Norwegian will not be affected until 26 May 2019, which is when the initial 14-month authorisation expires. Austrian is not affected as Tyrolean does not exist anymore. TAP and Air Europa are not affected as well as these leases are currently not in use. The remaining airlines (as well as a few more nearing the end of the 14-month period) will have to find a way to operate in compliance with the order - if it ever enters into force (i.e. if the EU ratification is not finalised until then).

No disrespect guys but can you please first read the document before commenting or asking questions? That would hopefully make for a higher quality discussion, if nothing else ...
 
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Polot
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:19 pm

JAAlbert wrote:
I read the OSC which states the current EU-wet lease program puts US airlines at a competitive disadvantage, but doesn't explain why.

What is the problem with the wet leases between the two continents? The OSC names several air carriers, how do wet leases involving the named airlines effect US carriers?

EU carriers can wetlease from cheaper EU carriers indefinitely (just look at the Eurowings setup). US carriers can only do so for 14 months, then the EU can pull the plug.

So until the EU changes their rules to match the US’s as agreed to the US is changing their rules to match the EU’s and giving notice to the airlines that they better start finding alternate arrangements if the EU doesn’t enact the agreed upon rules. The listed airlines are the wet leases approved for over 14 months already.
 
TigerFlyer
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:23 pm

Someone83 wrote:
What will be the actual effect be after this?


None. The US is putting pressure on the EU in advance of the Joint Committee meeting next week to implement what they already agreed to. The Order specifically says that DOT is only doing this to effect resolution.
 
fraT
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:38 pm

Since LH will end the so called JUMP project and bring back the Lufthansa Cityline A343s to mainline, it won't be affected.
 
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Polot
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:41 pm

fraT wrote:
Since LH will end the so called JUMP project and bring back the Lufthansa Cityline A343s to mainline, it won't be affected.

Well the LH brand won’t be affected. Eurowings is another story.
 
JBLUA320
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:32 pm

FYI, there are no wet-leases flying in the Norwegian fleet anymore.
 
JAAlbert
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:23 am

Polot wrote:
JAAlbert wrote:
I read the OSC which states the current EU-wet lease program puts US airlines at a competitive disadvantage, but doesn't explain why.

What is the problem with the wet leases between the two continents? The OSC names several air carriers, how do wet leases involving the named airlines effect US carriers?

EU carriers can wetlease from cheaper EU carriers indefinitely (just look at the Eurowings setup). US carriers can only do so for 14 months, then the EU can pull the plug.

So until the EU changes their rules to match the US’s as agreed to the US is changing their rules to match the EU’s and giving notice to the airlines that they better start finding alternate arrangements if the EU doesn’t enact the agreed upon rules. The listed airlines are the wet leases approved for over 14 months already.


Ah! Thanks for explaining the dispute. The DOT's actions appear appropriate given the imbalance, we'll see how it all works out in the upcoming meeting
 
FlyHappy
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:25 am

Someone83 wrote:
What will be the actual effect be after this?


I think Aer Lingus has been pretty liberal with the use of wet leases into the US with a couple of operators I had never heard of. As anything, the reason was allegedly lack of temporary capacity and such, but after a while one begins to think its just low cost operating strategy and a cheap way to handle seasonal peaks.
Given they are getting a dozen or so A321's whilst starting new service into a couple NA cities using narrowbodies, I would think they no longer have any pretense of airframe shortage, and this is their official notice that they are on the clock (unless EU regs change to match the more liberal US ones).
 
JAmie2k9
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:40 am

FlyHappy wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
What will be the actual effect be after this?


I think Aer Lingus has been pretty liberal with the use of wet leases into the US with a couple of operators I had never heard of. As anything, the reason was allegedly lack of temporary capacity and such, but after a while one begins to think its just low cost operating strategy and a cheap way to handle seasonal peaks.
Given they are getting a dozen or so A321's whilst starting new service into a couple NA cities using narrowbodies, I would think they no longer have any pretense of airframe shortage, and this is their official notice that they are on the clock (unless EU regs change to match the more liberal US ones).


Aer Lingus pilots are now flying a lot of the B752s because they reached an agreement to do it as ASL didn’t have enough. So not as low cost as people think. They will all go back to Aer Lingus once A321s arrive.
 
Dufo
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:22 am

For start EU could introduce crew visas instead of gendecs for all non-eu operators, just to make it a little bit more equal. And look more into UPS and Fedex intra-EU N-registered feeder flights.
I seriously think I just creamed my pants without any influence from any outside variables.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:33 am

Didn't know wet lease a big thing for EU carriers. How did this slip by union radar?

Even with this restriction, the US allows 14 months (vs) EU 7 months, The ball is in EU court.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:47 am

When was the last time a US carrier flew a wetlease to Europe? UA and EI on IADMAD?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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Polot
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:08 pm

I think the biggest issue the US has is that EU carriers can wetlease to other EU carriers and fly TATL indefinitely, but US carriers can only wet lease to EU carriers for 14 months. That allows for the likes of HiFly (although I don’t think they currently wet lease to any EU carrier for more than 14 months) and Sunexpress Deutschland (which LH wetlease for Eurowings long haul to operate those flights with lower costs) in Europe but no similar airline can exist in the US to try and compete for EU TATL long term wet lease business.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:32 pm

Polot wrote:
I think the biggest issue the US has is that EU carriers can wetlease to other EU carriers and fly TATL indefinitely, but US carriers can only wet lease to EU carriers for 14 months. That allows for the likes of HiFly (although I don’t think they currently wet lease to any EU carrier for more than 14 months) and Sunexpress Deutschland (which LH wetlease for Eurowings long haul to operate those flights with lower costs) in Europe but no similar airline can exist in the US to try and compete for EU TATL long term wet lease business.

What restricts US carriers to wet-lease to other US carriers to operate TATL flights?
What it looks like is that the US are trying to fight the situation on the sole basis that they cannot compete with it. Which is understandable, but is not the responsibility of the other party.

The EU has the same issue with the US Chapter 11 laws, that allow to shade off bad debt and continue to operate with lower cost; the EU has no such laws and consider it unfair competition.
In this case (Chapter 11 laws), it is the EU that has to create something similar to be able to compete with US companies; in the case of wet lease for TATL, it's the US that has to find ways to compete with EU companies.
 
ei146
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:36 pm

Polot wrote:
I think the biggest issue the US has is that EU carriers can wetlease to other EU carriers and fly TATL indefinitely, but US carriers can only wet lease to EU carriers for 14 months. That allows for the likes of HiFly (although I don’t think they currently wet lease to any EU carrier for more than 14 months) and Sunexpress Deutschland (which LH wetlease for Eurowings long haul to operate those flights with lower costs) in Europe but no similar airline can exist in the US to try and compete for EU TATL long term wet lease business.


Fine. What happens in the USA is not EU's business. What happens in the EU is not USA's business. What happens between USA and EU needs agreements based on mutual benefit.
So this is the gist of the matter: The US carriers want to compete within the EU market as if they were EU airlines. Are they ready to accept the same the other way around?
And the DOT trying to interfere with intra EU regulations won't help their case.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:51 pm

A lot of people are not seeing the point at all. This is regarding EU to US routes, I see nonsense being sprouted about US carriers wanting to fly within EU which is NOT allowed unless they get 8th freedom rights.

In summary, the situation now is that US carriers, eg DL, UA or AA, can use a wetlease carrier, eg Omni/Atlas for a period of 7 months on routes to EU countries. This can be extended by another 7 months, ie a total of 14 months maximum under EU regulations.

European carriers on the other hand, are allowed the use of wetlease carriers (eg Hi-Fly, Euro Atlantic, Brussels on behalf of Eurowings) on routes to the US with no time limit.

Simply put, EU carriers currently get more free play about who flies their routes to the US than the US carriers on US to EU routes. This is not a case of US carriers wanting to compete with EU carries within the EU market - they don't have the freedom to do so in any case.

The US government has been trying to get EU to scrap the 14 month limit for more than a decade, however, the EU has yet to take necessary action on it. hence, it is imposing a reciprocal (ie like for like to ensure fairness) restriction until the EU decide to decide to remove the restriction on US carriers as previously agreed.
 
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Polot
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:11 pm

ei146 wrote:
Polot wrote:
I think the biggest issue the US has is that EU carriers can wetlease to other EU carriers and fly TATL indefinitely, but US carriers can only wet lease to EU carriers for 14 months. That allows for the likes of HiFly (although I don’t think they currently wet lease to any EU carrier for more than 14 months) and Sunexpress Deutschland (which LH wetlease for Eurowings long haul to operate those flights with lower costs) in Europe but no similar airline can exist in the US to try and compete for EU TATL long term wet lease business.


Fine. What happens in the USA is not EU's business. What happens in the EU is not USA's business. What happens between USA and EU needs agreements based on mutual benefit.
So this is the gist of the matter: The US carriers want to compete within the EU market as if they were EU airlines. Are they ready to accept the same the other way around?
And the DOT trying to interfere with intra EU regulations won't help their case.

This is involving flights between the EU and the US. That automatically makes it just as much the US’s business as it is the EU’s. The US’s policy only applies to EU airline’s US flights. EU airlines are free to wet lease within the EU and to other international markets as much as they want and for however long they want as much as the bilateral agreements between the EU and those other parties allow. This policy change has zero effect on intra EU flights and regulations. US-EU TATL flights are not intra EU and the EU does not have the only say in what regulations EU airlines must follow on those routes.
 
IADCA
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:29 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
In summary, the situation now is that US carriers, eg DL, UA or AA, can use a wetlease carrier, eg Omni/Atlas for a period of 7 months on routes to EU countries. This can be extended by another 7 months, ie a total of 14 months maximum under EU regulations.

European carriers on the other hand, are allowed the use of wetlease carriers (eg Hi-Fly, Euro Atlantic, Brussels on behalf of Eurowings) on routes to the US with no time limit.

Simply put, EU carriers currently get more free play about who flies their routes to the US than the US carriers on US to EU routes. This is not a case of US carriers wanting to compete with EU carries within the EU market - they don't have the freedom to do so in any case.


Exactly. To give a concrete example for folks who are struggling with the level of abstraction here, EI has no plane with TATL range smaller than an A330. They wanted to operate TATL routes that can't support an A330 year-round. Hence, routes like IAD have been operated by ASL with a 757. They have done so without interruption for several years at this point and, without DOT or EU action, could have done so indefinitely.

But a US carrier can't do the equivalent. For example, if Sun Country wanted to re-try its London route with a plane much larger than a 737-800, they could wet lease a 767 from Omni. But they couldn't do so indefinitely: in no event could the arrangement last longer than 14 months. This gives an advantage to both lessors and lessees on the EU side: ASL gets expanded opportunities for its business, and EI can grab an expanded market share on TATL routes without having to actually acquire a new fleet type, with all the headaches that entails.

What DOT is doing is for negotiating leverage, sure, but people seem to be missing the fact that the list of wet leases cited in the document is a small section of ongoing intra-EU wet leases. Specifically, it's the list of ones that (1) exceed what is legal for US carriers at present and (2) fly routes to the US.
 
Varsity1
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:47 pm

ei146 wrote:
Polot wrote:
I think the biggest issue the US has is that EU carriers can wetlease to other EU carriers and fly TATL indefinitely, but US carriers can only wet lease to EU carriers for 14 months. That allows for the likes of HiFly (although I don’t think they currently wet lease to any EU carrier for more than 14 months) and Sunexpress Deutschland (which LH wetlease for Eurowings long haul to operate those flights with lower costs) in Europe but no similar airline can exist in the US to try and compete for EU TATL long term wet lease business.


Fine. What happens in the USA is not EU's business. What happens in the EU is not USA's business. What happens between USA and EU needs agreements based on mutual benefit.
So this is the gist of the matter: The US carriers want to compete within the EU market as if they were EU airlines. Are they ready to accept the same the other way around?
And the DOT trying to interfere with intra EU regulations won't help their case.


The US airlines don't want into the EU market at all. They want EU airlines to play by the same rules US airlines are forced (by the EU) to play by. Correcting a double standard.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
smartplane
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:24 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
ei146 wrote:
Polot wrote:
I think the biggest issue the US has is that EU carriers can wetlease to other EU carriers and fly TATL indefinitely, but US carriers can only wet lease to EU carriers for 14 months. That allows for the likes of HiFly (although I don’t think they currently wet lease to any EU carrier for more than 14 months) and Sunexpress Deutschland (which LH wetlease for Eurowings long haul to operate those flights with lower costs) in Europe but no similar airline can exist in the US to try and compete for EU TATL long term wet lease business.


Fine. What happens in the USA is not EU's business. What happens in the EU is not USA's business. What happens between USA and EU needs agreements based on mutual benefit.
So this is the gist of the matter: The US carriers want to compete within the EU market as if they were EU airlines. Are they ready to accept the same the other way around?
And the DOT trying to interfere with intra EU regulations won't help their case.


The US airlines don't want into the EU market at all. They want EU airlines to play by the same rules US airlines are forced (by the EU) to play by. Correcting a double standard.

If only the DOT and US3 in the shadows, were as vocal protecting customers from anti-competitive TATL JV's.
 
ei146
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:44 am

jeffrey0032j wrote:
In summary, the situation now is that US carriers, eg DL, UA or AA, can use a wetlease carrier, eg Omni/Atlas for a period of 7 months on routes to EU countries. This can be extended by another 7 months, ie a total of 14 months maximum under EU regulations.

Sorry to be a pain. Could you please point me to a reference for that? This statement keeps being repeated here, but I didn't find any prove so far. I searched a bit myself but could not find anything. If this is was really true, there must be something out there, some agreement, directive, order or regulation?
I browsed through EU Regulation EC 1008/2008. It allows EU carriers to wet lease from other EU carriers and restricts wet lease for EU carriers from non-EU carriers. Nothing else.
I checked the Air Transport Agreement between the USA and EU. I did not find anything there that would forbid an US operator to offer service to the EU with a wet leased plane from an other US operator.
Also the DOT order complains about
EC 1008/2008, which, among other things, limits the ability of non-EU carriers to wet-lease to EU carriers to an initial duration of seven months, with the opportunity for one extension for another seven-month period.

The objecting carriers stated that EC 1008/2008 negatively impacted their participation in the U.S.-EU wet-lease market by placing U.S. carriers at a competitive disadvantage vis-à-vis EU carriers and requested that the Department apply the same limitations in considering EU-to-EU carrier statement of authorization applications for services to/from the United States.

It does not mention any problems for US carriers with wet-leased US euipment.

jeffrey0032j wrote:
European carriers on the other hand, are allowed the use of wetlease carriers (eg Hi-Fly, Euro Atlantic, Brussels on behalf of Eurowings) on routes to the US with no time limit.

And so are US carriers with US wet-lease carriers on routes to EU. If not please provide prove.

@IADCA
Thanks for your explanations. But please, show me some something official supporting your claim about restrictions for US carriers with US wet-leased equipment.
 
VFRonTop
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:29 am

jeffrey0032j wrote:
A lot of people are not seeing the point at all. This is regarding EU to US routes, I see nonsense being sprouted about US carriers wanting to fly within EU which is NOT allowed unless they get 8th freedom rights.


I understand this point does not form part of the issue being discussed at the moment but its worth being clear about the freedoms available.

US airlines have a preferential position under the current EU US Open skies agreement. US airlines can fly between two EU airports as long as the flight is a continuation of a US originating flight [e.g. LAX-LHR-AMS] or it is a cargo only flight [e.g. CGN-CDG]. European airlines do not have the same rights within the US. This is because the EU is not seen as a single territory under the agreement.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:40 am

ei146 wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
In summary, the situation now is that US carriers, eg DL, UA or AA, can use a wetlease carrier, eg Omni/Atlas for a period of 7 months on routes to EU countries. This can be extended by another 7 months, ie a total of 14 months maximum under EU regulations.

Sorry to be a pain. Could you please point me to a reference for that? This statement keeps being repeated here, but I didn't find any prove so far. I searched a bit myself but could not find anything. If this is was really true, there must be something out there, some agreement, directive, order or regulation?

It does not mention any problems for US carriers with wet-leased US euipment.

jeffrey0032j wrote:
European carriers on the other hand, are allowed the use of wetlease carriers (eg Hi-Fly, Euro Atlantic, Brussels on behalf of Eurowings) on routes to the US with no time limit.

And so are US carriers with US wet-lease carriers on routes to EU. If not please provide prove.
Thanks for your explanations. But please, show me some something official supporting your claim about restrictions for US carriers with US wet-leased equipment.

Like you, I have read the pdf document, and every post in this thread, twice over. I am still confused.
To be fair, some people may have got close to nailing it, but only on their second or third attempt, so I feel I'm not alone.

As I see it, the EU directive ONLY affects EU carriers directly.

It places no restrictions on US carriers (or indeed anyone else across the world - this EU directive was not aimed solely at the US!).

The only US operations that are affected in any way, are those that wish to conduct the business of wet-leasing to EU airlines.
This doesn't sound like DL, UA, AA or anybody currently flying TATL.

The only actual airlines (as opposed to leasing companies or leasing sub-divisions) that are restricted by this directive, are EU airlines, placing them at a competitive disadvantage. Again, this is worldwide, not just with regards TATL.

This is so back-to-front, I conclude I must be reading a different document to almost everybody else.
I too would appreciate a proper explanation, beyond the vague phrases such as " Accordingly we tentatively find that it is in the public interest ….." and "due to the longstanding competitive disadvantage U.S. carriers have faced …"

Varsity1 wrote:
The US airlines don't want into the EU market at all. They want EU airlines to play by the same rules US airlines are forced (by the EU) to play by.
Unfortunately that comes across as US Gov't saying "You're wrong; you must do it our way". That's probably just me; I'm sure you didn't mean it ….

There are two three ways of correcting a double standard. One is for you to align your regulations with mine. The other is for me to align my regulations with yours. Option three is to meet in the middle. :bigthumbsup:

If the EU have been dragging their heels over this matter, then this DOT Order to Show Cause seems quite reasonable, apart from it's use of world class double-speak.

If a compromise cannot be reached, then IF the provisions within the order results in US Regulations matching EU regs, thus removing the double standard, then surely this is a good thing too?

To summarize; as I see it, two types of organisations are affected (disadvantaged) by the existing EU Directive.
a) US Leasing companies (or airline sub-divisions engaged in leasing)
b) EU airlines looking for better wet leasing deals
On both of the Atlantic, somebody is disadvantaged. This is no reason for the US to play the victim card.

jeffreyj wrote:
This is regarding EU to US routes
The EU directive is regarding EU airlines only, and their ability to wet lease from the US (& elsewhere) on routes anywhere across the world. In that respect TATL is just a tiny portion of the bigger picture.
Although one might argue US DOT jurisdiction is limited to TATL, and intra-EU flights by US carriers under ATA (2007), this DOT Order could have much wider ramifications for the EU.

It's all very confusing.
Now... which bits have I got wrong? :white:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Bhoy
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:53 pm

Polot wrote:
I think the biggest issue the US has is that EU carriers can wetlease to other EU carriers and fly TATL indefinitely, but US carriers can only wet lease to EU carriers for 14 months. That allows for the likes of HiFly (although I don’t think they currently wet lease to any EU carrier for more than 14 months) and Sunexpress Deutschland (which LH wetlease for Eurowings long haul to operate those flights with lower costs) in Europe but no similar airline can exist in the US to try and compete for EU TATL long term wet lease business.

Surely that makes no difference if the US3 (as the only ones operating TATL [for pax]) all have metal neutral JVs with EU carriers - they could therefore theoretically have any routes they wanted TATL with a cheaper EU wet lease, 'operated' by their EU partner if they so wished?
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:12 pm

Complex regulations and laws become historically conditioned documents attempting to be unambiguous. When one section is altered to conform to another section the unintended consequence is that both of those sections impact other sections and ambiguities can increase.

sorry, can't resist adding a philosophical foot note
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
A380MSN004
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:58 pm

A little off topic but i'm curious :
Does a French Tour Operator chartering a US or EU aircraft for 6 Months duration can fly everyday a route such as :

CDG - JFK - CDG
or
CDG - EWR - CDG

Or is there any mouvement limitation for chartering ops between EU and US?

Thanks for your feedbacks.
 
snasteve
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Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:33 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Polot wrote:
I think the biggest issue the US has is that EU carriers can wetlease to other EU carriers and fly TATL indefinitely, but US carriers can only wet lease to EU carriers for 14 months. That allows for the likes of HiFly (although I don’t think they currently wet lease to any EU carrier for more than 14 months) and Sunexpress Deutschland (which LH wetlease for Eurowings long haul to operate those flights with lower costs) in Europe but no similar airline can exist in the US to try and compete for EU TATL long term wet lease business.

What restricts US carriers to wet-lease to other US carriers to operate TATL flights?
What it looks like is that the US are trying to fight the situation on the sole basis that they cannot compete with it. Which is understandable, but is not the responsibility of the other party.

The EU has the same issue with the US Chapter 11 laws, that allow to shade off bad debt and continue to operate with lower cost; the EU has no such laws and consider it unfair competition.
In this case (Chapter 11 laws), it is the EU that has to create something similar to be able to compete with US companies; in the case of wet lease for TATL, it's the US that has to find ways to compete with EU companies.


Regarding chapter 11, Didn’t Germany recently change their bankruptcy code to allow something similar to chapter 11? I thought bankruptcy was the individual nationstates prerogative to administer, and not the EU?
 
TigerFlyer
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:51 pm

Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:42 pm

There's a lot of misinformation on this thread. DOT's Order is meant to force timely resolution of a regulatory problem that has ALREADY BEEN AGREED by the EU. It is not about cabotage, market protection, etc. It is simply leveling the playing field and requiring the EU to do what has already been agreed, and allowing U.S. carriers to compete for EU wet lease business in the same way EU carriers are allowed to compete for U.S. wet lease business.

Under the 2007 US-EU agreement, EU carriers can wet lease for international operations performed by either EU or US wet lease carriers. Likewise, reciprocally, US carriers can can wet lease from EU or US operators. So, by way of example, Amazon can wet lease aircraft operated by Cargolux (EU), or Atlas (US) for periods of indefinite duration. However, because of the later-adopted EU regulation (which is contrary to the US-EU Agreement) the EU is prohibiting EU carriers from wet leasing from U.S. providers for periods of greater than 14 months. So, by way of further example, Atlas (US) had a contract to wet lease 747s to DHL (EU) and that contract is frustrated by the EU's 14 month limit. The EU regulation effectively forces all long-term wet lease business onto EU providers. They know this is a problem, they know it is contrary to the US-EU agreement, and have already agreed to the needed fix as of February, 2017. The current problem is simply bureaucratic foot dragging that DOT wants to put an end to -- which is why they put out the order. The order explicitly says it is intended only to bring about the agreed-upon resolution, and they do not want to issue the Show Cause Order in the form of a Final Order that would actually impact operations.

Since the US and EU are getting together next week for the annual Joint Committee meeting, one can reasonably expect that it will be resolved then. And, the timing of that meeting is a good clue as to why the DOT put out the Order last month.
 
Murdoughnut
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:27 pm

Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:46 pm

Polot wrote:
fraT wrote:
Since LH will end the so called JUMP project and bring back the Lufthansa Cityline A343s to mainline, it won't be affected.

Well the LH brand won’t be affected. Eurowings is another story.


They're not ending it before March 30th - this would impact existing JUMP markets such as TPA.
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 23634
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:52 pm

US DOT delayed action until 30 August 2019 on its plans to terminate the effectiveness of certain wet-leases to allow more time to engage with wet-lessors and other affected carriers.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
ei146
Posts: 224
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:54 pm

Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:43 am

LAXintl wrote:
US DOT delayed action until 30 August 2019 on its plans to terminate the effectiveness of certain wet-leases to allow more time to engage with wet-lessors and other affected carriers.


Here is the document.
@LAXintl: Thanks for reporting this! Interestingly enough the document gives a completly different reasoning for the deferral:
Based on the notable progress reached on this matter at the recent U.S.-EU Joint Committee Meeting...

I also find the footnote regarding Switzerland really interesting.
 
grbauc
Posts: 1364
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:31 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Polot wrote:
I think the biggest issue the US has is that EU carriers can wetlease to other EU carriers and fly TATL indefinitely, but US carriers can only wet lease to EU carriers for 14 months. That allows for the likes of HiFly (although I don’t think they currently wet lease to any EU carrier for more than 14 months) and Sunexpress Deutschland (which LH wetlease for Eurowings long haul to operate those flights with lower costs) in Europe but no similar airline can exist in the US to try and compete for EU TATL long term wet lease business.

What restricts US carriers to wet-lease to other US carriers to operate TATL flights?
What it looks like is that the US are trying to fight the situation on the sole basis that they cannot compete with it. Which is understandable, but is not the responsibility of the other party.

The EU has the same issue with the US Chapter 11 laws, that allow to shade off bad debt and continue to operate with lower cost; the EU has no such laws and consider it unfair competition.
In this case (Chapter 11 laws), it is the EU that has to create something similar to be able to compete with US companies; in the case of wet lease for TATL, it's the US that has to find ways to compete with EU companies.


And I'm sure the US can find some EU practices that aren't fair also. Your adding another argument to this one that shouldn't and doesn't need to be.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4618
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:10 am

grbauc wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Polot wrote:
I think the biggest issue the US has is that EU carriers can wetlease to other EU carriers and fly TATL indefinitely, but US carriers can only wet lease to EU carriers for 14 months. That allows for the likes of HiFly (although I don’t think they currently wet lease to any EU carrier for more than 14 months) and Sunexpress Deutschland (which LH wetlease for Eurowings long haul to operate those flights with lower costs) in Europe but no similar airline can exist in the US to try and compete for EU TATL long term wet lease business.

What restricts US carriers to wet-lease to other US carriers to operate TATL flights?
What it looks like is that the US are trying to fight the situation on the sole basis that they cannot compete with it. Which is understandable, but is not the responsibility of the other party.

The EU has the same issue with the US Chapter 11 laws, that allow to shade off bad debt and continue to operate with lower cost; the EU has no such laws and consider it unfair competition.
In this case (Chapter 11 laws), it is the EU that has to create something similar to be able to compete with US companies; in the case of wet lease for TATL, it's the US that has to find ways to compete with EU companies.


And I'm sure the US can find some EU practices that aren't fair also. Your adding another argument to this one that shouldn't and doesn't need to be.


Forget about it, misunderstanding of what Chapter 11 is all about is basically a religion over there. Never mind that the US has the most creditor-friendly bankruptcy regime in the world, never mind that Chapter 11 consistently provides a much higher recovery rate for creditors than Chapter 7 (liquidation), never mind that recovery rates for creditors overall are much higher in the US than in other jurisdictions, facts be damned, they just think everyone should be forced to use their crappy bankruptcy laws, for no apparent reason.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
grbauc
Posts: 1364
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:25 am

Pyrex wrote:
grbauc wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
What restricts US carriers to wet-lease to other US carriers to operate TATL flights?
What it looks like is that the US are trying to fight the situation on the sole basis that they cannot compete with it. Which is understandable, but is not the responsibility of the other party.

The EU has the same issue with the US Chapter 11 laws, that allow to shade off bad debt and continue to operate with lower cost; the EU has no such laws and consider it unfair competition.
In this case (Chapter 11 laws), it is the EU that has to create something similar to be able to compete with US companies; in the case of wet lease for TATL, it's the US that has to find ways to compete with EU companies.


And I'm sure the US can find some EU practices that aren't fair also. Your adding another argument to this one that shouldn't and doesn't need to be.


Forget about it, misunderstanding of what Chapter 11 is all about is basically a religion over there. Never mind that the US has the most creditor-friendly bankruptcy regime in the world, never mind that Chapter 11 consistently provides a much higher recovery rate for creditors than Chapter 7 (liquidation), never mind that recovery rates for creditors overall are much higher in the US than in other jurisdictions, facts be damned, they just think everyone should be forced to use their crappy bankruptcy laws, for no apparent reason.


Yep it's also not a fair world. Heck labor costs are not equal but that's just part of it.
 
travaz
Posts: 845
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:03 am

Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:39 am

This is the way the game is played! Threaten and then bend a little .
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1084
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic

Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:57 am

Pyrex wrote:
[...] facts be damned, they just think everyone should be forced to use their crappy bankruptcy laws, for no apparent reason.

And facts be damned, the US think everyone else should be forced to use their crappy employee protection laws, even when they operate in countries with more favorable laws (look at what the GAFA's are fighting).

But then again, I said that both sides have laws that the other one finds unfair; such is global market life.

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