Newbiepilot
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Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:07 am

There is an article out today with quotes from Ed Bastian about how Delta wants to be the launch customer for the NMA

Delta Air Lines CEO hopes Boeing decides to launch its New Mid-market Airplane soon because his airline must replace almost 200 older Boeing 767 and 757 jets slated to retire in the next decade.

"It represents a significant opportunity for Delta," Delta CEO Ed Bastian said in a recent, exclusive interview with the Puget Sound Business Journal.

Bastian reiterated that Delta, the nation's second-largest airline ranked by passengers carried, wants to be the launch customer for Boeing's potential new jet.

"We're in discussions at a very preliminary stage with Boeing and we've expressed our interest to the management team," Bastian said. "The ball really is in Boeing's court. They've heard us."


https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... yptr=yahoo

We have had threads about the NMA, but these comments are specifically about Delta potentially ordering 200 NMAs. This would represent a significant amount of their domestic fleet. What I find interesting is that it indicates that the current narrowbodies with almost 200 seats aren’t big enough. The A321 has virtually the same seat count as the 757, yet it looks like Delta doesn’t plan on replacing 757s with just A321s. In today’s consolidated airline industry it looks like airlines are finally wanting to size up to bigger planes.

What other reasons could be behind Delta’s interest in launching the NMA? Is ATL finally hitting the limit for growth? The number of regional jets flying through ATL is already pretty minimal.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:15 am

Has it occurred to you that they might just have a need for it? The A339 might be too big for many routes and there is also freight to be carried in an increasingly online shopping world.

DL is big enough to run two fleets in that medium range space enabling right-sizing on routes with healthy traffic.
 
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madpropsyo
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:15 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
What other reasons could be behind Delta’s interest in launching the NMA?


If they order first and order big they get to dictate more of the design/specs than other airlines.

The bigger opportunity for DL is they get right out in front of developing their MRO services for the new jet. What this tells me is DL expects this plane - whatever it is that Boeing has shown them so far - to take a big slice out of the market, and they want to plant their flag firmly in the aftermarket revenue flow.
 
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tistpaa727
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:18 am

I'm sure several airlines have told Boeing what they want in the NMA and this could be DL's way of dangling the carrot of a "give us what we want and we'll help you launch this bird." Considering the number of 757 and 767 that need a replacement, this make sense. The NMA also opens up a lot of transatlantic routes where the 339 is too much and the 321 is not enough. To me, the NMA in it rumored form seems like a perfect fit for DL.

Seems like a lot of airlines have expressed serious interest in the NMA and now it is just up to Boeing.
Don't sweat the little things.
 
a19901213
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:18 am

I can quickly think of 5 airlines that would want to be launch customer.

The demand is surging for a new NMA as we speak.
 
AlexBrewster03
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:22 am

I’m sure they will order the NMA, but I do think they will use some of the A321 on order to replace a good amount of domestic 757s, besides the ones fitted with delta one
 
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gunsontheroof
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:26 am

Obviously, the folks at DL have more intel on the NMA than almost anyone around here...their interest might be a sign that what Boeing's got cooking isn't necessarily a direct A321 competitor.
Picked a hell of a week to quit sniffing glue.
 
nomorerjs
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:28 am

DL and UA are begging for this. Others as well. A big market and Boeing is sitting in there ass for years. If Boeing doesn’t announce this year, Boeing can’t complain when DL, FI, and UA give Airbus 300 orders.
 
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Pudelhund
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:34 am

Imagine all the interesting transatlantic routes from BOS and DTW with this aircraft... mouth watering.
 
Fargo
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:36 am

I hope they are. DL has been almost exclusively buying Airbus since the NW merger and it would be nice to see a DL Boeing order.

Not that I have a problem with DL buying Airbus (the 321neo over the 737 MAX 10 was the right move IMO), but it is disappointing when DL won't order the planes like the 787, even though they arguably need it more than UA/AA do.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:40 am

nomorerjs wrote:
DL and UA are begging for this. Others as well. A big market and Boeing is sitting in there ass for years. If Boeing doesn’t announce this year, Boeing can’t complain when DL, FI, and UA give Airbus 300 orders.


Orders for what? Airbus doesn't have a 763-sized aircraft. I guess DL and UA can order A321NEO and LR, but that's not what they want and I think if they did want it, they would have ordered it.
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Bobloblaw
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:43 am

nomorerjs wrote:
DL and UA are begging for this. Others as well. A big market and Boeing is sitting in there ass for years. If Boeing doesn’t announce this year, Boeing can’t complain when DL, FI, and UA give Airbus 300 orders.

300 orders for what?
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:43 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
There is an article out today with quotes from Ed Bastian about how Delta wants to be the launch customer for the NMA

Delta Air Lines CEO hopes Boeing decides to launch its New Mid-market Airplane soon because his airline must replace almost 200 older Boeing 767 and 757 jets slated to retire in the next decade.

"It represents a significant opportunity for Delta," Delta CEO Ed Bastian said in a recent, exclusive interview with the Puget Sound Business Journal.

Bastian reiterated that Delta, the nation's second-largest airline ranked by passengers carried, wants to be the launch customer for Boeing's potential new jet.

"We're in discussions at a very preliminary stage with Boeing and we've expressed our interest to the management team," Bastian said. "The ball really is in Boeing's court. They've heard us."


https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... yptr=yahoo

We have had threads about the NMA, but these comments are specifically about Delta potentially ordering 200 NMAs. This would represent a significant amount of their domestic fleet. What I find interesting is that it indicates that the current narrowbodies with almost 200 seats aren’t big enough. The A321 has virtually the same seat count as the 757, yet it looks like Delta doesn’t plan on replacing 757s with just A321s. In today’s consolidated airline industry it looks like airlines are finally wanting to size up to bigger planes.

What other reasons could be behind Delta’s interest in launching the NMA? Is ATL finally hitting the limit for growth? The number of regional jets flying through ATL is already pretty minimal.

Isn't that old rehashed news? Didn't Ed Bastian say the same thing last year?

He might be saying it in good faith. But, like others, I see it as "go ahead now or you'll lose that order" because DL cannot wait another 4-5 years for Boeing to pull the trigger.
 
DLATL
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:43 am

Fargo wrote:
I hope they are. DL has been almost exclusively buying Airbus since the NW merger and it would be nice to see a DL Boeing order.

Not that I have a problem with DL buying Airbus (the 321neo over the 737 MAX 10 was the right move IMO), but it is disappointing when DL won't order the planes like the 787, even though they arguably need it more than UA/AA do.

I have to reiterate, DL does NOT NEED the 787. They have made that very clear. I don’t mean to stir that pot, but as of right now, they don’t need it. It has too much range for what they are looking for.

As for the NMA, It could be something great for them, but I do agree, if Boeing keeps dragging their feet, they are going to lose out on a potentially huge order. Also, I’m sure when Airbus hears this, it makes their mouth water too, we don’t exactly know what they have up their sleeve.
 
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jscottwomack
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:45 am

a19901213 wrote:
I can quickly think of 5 airlines that would want to be launch customer.

The demand is surging for a new NMA as we speak.


DL, UA, AA, BA, ? I think I have 4 of your 5.
TWA, Ozark, Braniff, Piedmont, USAir, American, Delta, Frontier, Midwest Express, Western, Eastern, Southwest, Northwest, PanAm, United, Mississippi Valley, Britt, Continental, Trans America, Midway, America West, National, American Trans Air, Sun Country
 
bigjku
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:47 am

nomorerjs wrote:
DL and UA are begging for this. Others as well. A big market and Boeing is sitting in there ass for years. If Boeing doesn’t announce this year, Boeing can’t complain when DL, FI, and UA give Airbus 300 orders.


It won’t shock me at all if all three of the US3 are launch customers...
 
a19901213
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:49 am

jscottwomack wrote:
a19901213 wrote:
I can quickly think of 5 airlines that would want to be launch customer.

The demand is surging for a new NMA as we speak.


DL, UA, AA, BA, ? I think I have 4 of your 5.


QF or perhaps NH or JL.
 
Fargo
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:57 am

DLATL wrote:
Fargo wrote:
I hope they are. DL has been almost exclusively buying Airbus since the NW merger and it would be nice to see a DL Boeing order.

Not that I have a problem with DL buying Airbus (the 321neo over the 737 MAX 10 was the right move IMO), but it is disappointing when DL won't order the planes like the 787, even though they arguably need it more than UA/AA do.

I have to reiterate, DL does NOT NEED the 787. They have made that very clear. I don’t mean to stir that pot, but as of right now, they don’t need it. It has too much range for what they are looking for.


Why?

They operate plenty of flying where the 787 would make a ton of sense and the A350 and/or 339neo would not. Most of DL's TPAC routes out of MSP/SEA scream for the 788, and they have expressed a desire to launch routes like SLC-ICN, which none of their current aircraft make sense for that route. I don't think they need a ton of 787's, but a small sub fleet of 10-15 788's like UA would go a long way.
 
nomorerjs
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:00 am

DocLightning wrote:
nomorerjs wrote:
DL and UA are begging for this. Others as well. A big market and Boeing is sitting in there ass for years. If Boeing doesn’t announce this year, Boeing can’t complain when DL, FI, and UA give Airbus 300 orders.


Orders for what? Airbus doesn't have a 763-sized aircraft. I guess DL and UA can order A321NEO and LR, but that's not what they want and I think if they did want it, they would have ordered it.


They want a sort of new plane. The 797 is it, but apparently Boeing doesn’t think there is a market. The more 321XLR / 321XXX, 321WTF orders the better. Boeing has milked the 737MILF until it’s lost its luster with millennials. About time for a 757/767 replacement. DL, UA, FI and others have basically begged for this. Apparently Boeing doesn’t care about their customers, and winning back DL. Their loss.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:01 am

Fargo wrote:
I hope they are. DL has been almost exclusively buying Airbus since the NW merger and it would be nice to see a DL Boeing order.

Not that I have a problem with DL buying Airbus (the 321neo over the 737 MAX 10 was the right move IMO), but it is disappointing when DL won't order the planes like the 787, even though they arguably need it more than UA/AA do.


Boeing really owes it to United to be the launch customer. They've been the only loyal US airline. United is also very low key and doesn't pull silly PR stunts.
Last edited by TTailedTiger on Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:03 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
We have had threads about the NMA, but these comments are specifically about Delta potentially ordering 200 NMAs.


Needing to replace 200 757/753/763/764 within the next ten years doesn't imply an order for 200 NMAs. Just like ordering both 739s and 321s, nobody's going to get the whole pie.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:03 am

Fargo wrote:
DLATL wrote:
Fargo wrote:
I hope they are. DL has been almost exclusively buying Airbus since the NW merger and it would be nice to see a DL Boeing order.

Not that I have a problem with DL buying Airbus (the 321neo over the 737 MAX 10 was the right move IMO), but it is disappointing when DL won't order the planes like the 787, even though they arguably need it more than UA/AA do.

I have to reiterate, DL does NOT NEED the 787. They have made that very clear. I don’t mean to stir that pot, but as of right now, they don’t need it. It has too much range for what they are looking for.


Why?

They operate plenty of flying where the 787 would make a ton of sense and the A350 and/or 339neo would not. Most of DL's TPAC routes out of MSP/SEA scream for the 788, and they have expressed a desire to launch routes like SLC-ICN, which none of their current aircraft make sense for that route. I don't think they need a ton of 787's, but a small sub fleet of 10-15 788's like UA would go a long way.

People have to stop thinking the 787 is the Swiss army knife of airplanes.

Why do the 10-15 788's make sense at UA? Because they will operate a total fleet of 64 787's (12 787-8's, 38 787-9's & 14 787-10's); so, the 12 787-8's are part of a bigger 787 fleet at UA.
Operating 10-15 787's for DL wouldn't have the same economy of scale.
 
Fargo
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:05 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Fargo wrote:
DLATL wrote:
I have to reiterate, DL does NOT NEED the 787. They have made that very clear. I don’t mean to stir that pot, but as of right now, they don’t need it. It has too much range for what they are looking for.


Why?

They operate plenty of flying where the 787 would make a ton of sense and the A350 and/or 339neo would not. Most of DL's TPAC routes out of MSP/SEA scream for the 788, and they have expressed a desire to launch routes like SLC-ICN, which none of their current aircraft make sense for that route. I don't think they need a ton of 787's, but a small sub fleet of 10-15 788's like UA would go a long way.

People have to stop thinking the 787 is the Swiss army knife of airplanes.

Why do the 10-15 788's make sense at UA? Because they will operate a total fleet of 64 787's (12 787-8's, 38 787-9's & 14 787-10's); so, the 12 787-8's are part of a bigger 787 fleet at UA.
Operating 10-15 787's for DL wouldn't have the same economy of scale.


They operate 18 777's, how is that any different?
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:07 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Fargo wrote:
I hope they are. DL has been almost exclusively buying Airbus since the NW merger and it would be nice to see a DL Boeing order.

Not that I have a problem with DL buying Airbus (the 321neo over the 737 MAX 10 was the right move IMO), but it is disappointing when DL won't order the planes like the 787, even though they arguably need it more than UA/AA do.


Boeing really owes it to United to be the launch customer. They've been the only loyal US airline. United is also very low key and doesn't pull silly PR stunts.

Of course. Because United does not operate 170 A320 Family (+34 A319's on order as second-hand) nor does it have 45 A350-900's on order...
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:11 am

Fargo wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Fargo wrote:

Why?

They operate plenty of flying where the 787 would make a ton of sense and the A350 and/or 339neo would not. Most of DL's TPAC routes out of MSP/SEA scream for the 788, and they have expressed a desire to launch routes like SLC-ICN, which none of their current aircraft make sense for that route. I don't think they need a ton of 787's, but a small sub fleet of 10-15 788's like UA would go a long way.

People have to stop thinking the 787 is the Swiss army knife of airplanes.

Why do the 10-15 788's make sense at UA? Because they will operate a total fleet of 64 787's (12 787-8's, 38 787-9's & 14 787-10's); so, the 12 787-8's are part of a bigger 787 fleet at UA.
Operating 10-15 787's for DL wouldn't have the same economy of scale.


They operate 18 777's, how is that any different?

There was no other twin engine aircraft capable of flying as far as the 777-200ER's and 777-200LR's when they were ordered. They fit in a niche within DL network.
The 787 has competition from Airbus now.

And, by the way, you compared the supposed need for 787's at DL with a subfleet (787-8's) within a much bigger fleet (787's) at UA; kinda apples to oranges.
 
Scarebus34
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:12 am

United might have a little something to say about this...
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:14 am

WayexTDI wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Fargo wrote:
I hope they are. DL has been almost exclusively buying Airbus since the NW merger and it would be nice to see a DL Boeing order.

Not that I have a problem with DL buying Airbus (the 321neo over the 737 MAX 10 was the right move IMO), but it is disappointing when DL won't order the planes like the 787, even though they arguably need it more than UA/AA do.


Boeing really owes it to United to be the launch customer. They've been the only loyal US airline. United is also very low key and doesn't pull silly PR stunts.

Of course. Because United does not operate 170 A320 Family (+34 A319's on order as second-hand) nor does it have 45 A350-900's on order...


The A350 was ordered before the merger. The A319 were acquired USED since they got them dirt cheap and could quickly replace 50 seat regional jets. United has hundreds of new 737's on order. United has ordered nothing from Airbus since the merger. I'm sure Boeing wants to keep it that way.
Last edited by TTailedTiger on Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:14 am

Scarebus34 wrote:
United might have a little something to say about this...


Agreed 100%.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:15 am

It’s telling that they are again stating this, the interest for the aircraft is there. The ball truly is in Boeing’s court.
 
bigjku
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:16 am

Scarebus34 wrote:
United might have a little something to say about this...


Look while the US3 compete they also have to realize that to get the plane that may beat suit them they may all have to play launch customer together without too much drama. They all have similar needs, demanding to be the only show in town just makes voices after something else louder in the room.

EDIT: I would add that the 4 biggest US carriers all being in the room ain’t out of the realm of possibility from what I hear.
Last edited by bigjku on Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Austin787
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:17 am

I'm not sure DL is serious about Boeing's proposed NMA. Expressing interest could be a negotiation trick to get a better deal from Airbus, be it for A321LR or A330-800NEO. Or DL may actually want Boeing to launch its NMA, in order to force Airbus to launch a competitor aircraft which DL will then order. Remember DL also expressed interest in the 787, then later cancelled its 787 orders.

I think Boeing should listen to United, who has been very loyal to Boeing. Let Delta order from Airbus - waiting for Airbus to make the first move may actually work to Boeing's advantage because they will know what they are going against.
 
Guillaume787
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:20 am

Anyone found this part of the article interesting: "Aerospace industry sources say Boeing is offering airlines three different-sized passenger NMAs with different ranges."

I thought Boeing had previously announced that the NMA would be available in two variations, one with 225 seats and a 5,000 nmi (9,300 km) range and one with 275 seats and a range of 4,500 nmi (8,300 km).

What is this "third" size being offered?
 
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Erebus
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:20 am

Boeing has dithered on this for far too long that they are going to be left with quite a challenge in ramping up production quickly to meet replacement demand within the first few years. 757s and 767s are basically living on borrowed time and it isn't any surprise that airlines are clamouring to be the first in line to get them replaced. Some might be forced to take up other options if Boeing doesn't give them favourable slots.
Last edited by Erebus on Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:22 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Boeing really owes it to United to be the launch customer. They've been the only loyal US airline. United is also very low key and doesn't pull silly PR stunts.

Of course. Because United does not operate 170 A320 Family (+34 A319's on order as second-hand) nor does it have 45 A350-900's on order...


The A350 was ordered before the merger. The A319 were acquired USED since they got them dirt cheap and could quickly replace 50 seat regional jets. United has hundreds of new 737's on order. United has ordered nothing from Airbus since the merger. I'm sure Boeing wants to keep it that way.

OK. So, you mean "United f.k.a. Continental" has been the only loyal US airline? One would think the so-called loyalty (which goes against business-101) should lie more with the "real" United, the one that traces back to "United Air Lines, a subsidiary of United Aircraft and Transport Corporation", the one that was in bed with Boeing; the same one that bought Airbus aircraft...
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:22 am

Austin787 wrote:
I'm not sure DL is serious about Boeing's proposed NMA. Expressing interest could be a negotiation trick to get a better deal from Airbus, be it for A321LR or A330-800NEO. Or DL may actually want Boeing to launch its NMA, in order to force Airbus to launch a competitor aircraft which DL will then order. Remember DL also expressed interest in the 787, then later cancelled its 787 orders.

I think Boeing should listen to United, who has been very loyal to Boeing. Let Delta order from Airbus - waiting for Airbus to make the first move may actually work to Boeing's advantage because they will know what they are going against.


Those are my thoughts as well. Boeing would have to impose some really harsh cancellation penalties on a Delta order because of the stunts they have pulled.
 
Fargo
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:22 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Boeing really owes it to United to be the launch customer. They've been the only loyal US airline. United is also very low key and doesn't pull silly PR stunts.

Of course. Because United does not operate 170 A320 Family (+34 A319's on order as second-hand) nor does it have 45 A350-900's on order...


The A350 was ordered before the merger. The A319 were acquired USED since they got them dirt cheap and could quickly replace 50 seat regional jets. United has hundreds of new 737's on order. United has ordered nothing from Airbus since the merger. I'm sure Boeing wants to keep it that way.


Isn’t there a clause in one of AA’s agreements for the 321neo that prevents Airbus from giving a competitive price to UA?
 
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intotheair
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:24 am

Scarebus34 wrote:
United might have a little something to say about this...


Bastian made similar comments in June. At that time, Flight Global reported that UA doesn't have any interest in being the launch customer.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... an-449780/
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:24 am

WayexTDI wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Of course. Because United does not operate 170 A320 Family (+34 A319's on order as second-hand) nor does it have 45 A350-900's on order...


The A350 was ordered before the merger. The A319 were acquired USED since they got them dirt cheap and could quickly replace 50 seat regional jets. United has hundreds of new 737's on order. United has ordered nothing from Airbus since the merger. I'm sure Boeing wants to keep it that way.

OK. So, you mean "United f.k.a. Continental" has been the only loyal US airline? One would think the so-called loyalty (which goes against business-101) should lie more with the "real" United, the one that traces back to "United Air Lines, a subsidiary of United Aircraft and Transport Corporation", the one that was in bed with Boeing; the same one that bought Airbus aircraft...


There is no more PM-CO and no more PM-UA. Just United. Their business practices after the merger of the two companies is all that matters.
 
Fargo
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:26 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Fargo wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
People have to stop thinking the 787 is the Swiss army knife of airplanes.

Why do the 10-15 788's make sense at UA? Because they will operate a total fleet of 64 787's (12 787-8's, 38 787-9's & 14 787-10's); so, the 12 787-8's are part of a bigger 787 fleet at UA.
Operating 10-15 787's for DL wouldn't have the same economy of scale.


They operate 18 777's, how is that any different?

There was no other twin engine aircraft capable of flying as far as the 777-200ER's and 777-200LR's when they were ordered. They fit in a niche within DL network.
The 787 has competition from Airbus now.

And, by the way, you compared the supposed need for 787's at DL with a subfleet (787-8's) within a much bigger fleet (787's) at UA; kinda apples to oranges.


I assume you mean the 777 has competition from Airbus?

I’m saying it wouldn’t be any different for DL to operate a small fleet of 788’s just as they do with 777’s. Not sure how that’s an apples to oranges comparison.
Last edited by Fargo on Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:26 am

Great PR, but DL described its 321NEO order as replacements for older jets rather than new capacity; undountedly, it’ll teeth into the 757 fleet. Put simply, DL’s fleet is just too old to wait for the NMA — IMO, it’ll take a severe recession for DL not to exercise its 100 NEO options, which would all but extinguish the 757 fleet.

Of course, there’s plenty of room in DL’s fleet for the NMA, but it’ll soon become “fake news” on a.net that DL is clinging onto its 757 fleet until the NMA is available, when in reality the NMA would replace the 738, 320 and 767...
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:30 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

The A350 was ordered before the merger. The A319 were acquired USED since they got them dirt cheap and could quickly replace 50 seat regional jets. United has hundreds of new 737's on order. United has ordered nothing from Airbus since the merger. I'm sure Boeing wants to keep it that way.

OK. So, you mean "United f.k.a. Continental" has been the only loyal US airline? One would think the so-called loyalty (which goes against business-101) should lie more with the "real" United, the one that traces back to "United Air Lines, a subsidiary of United Aircraft and Transport Corporation", the one that was in bed with Boeing; the same one that bought Airbus aircraft...


There is no more PM-CO and no more PM-UA. Just United. Their business practices after the merger of the two companies is all that matters.

Of course, let's do that, let's just consider the past 9 years and forget about the previous numerous decades. Cause it suits your argument...

I think people put too much thought in so-called loyalty to Boeing or Airbus: any airline "blindly" buying from one manufacturer exclusively just for the sake of loyalty is showing poor business practice.
Some single-fleet airlines have switched, are switching or will switch from Airbus to Boeing, or vice-versa, because the other offered a better deal (although they were loyal so far to one manufacturer).
Remember that publicly traded companies have an obligation to their shareholders; not to Boeing's or Airbus'.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:32 am

Fargo wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Fargo wrote:

They operate 18 777's, how is that any different?

There was no other twin engine aircraft capable of flying as far as the 777-200ER's and 777-200LR's when they were ordered. They fit in a niche within DL network.
The 787 has competition from Airbus now.

And, by the way, you compared the supposed need for 787's at DL with a subfleet (787-8's) within a much bigger fleet (787's) at UA; kinda apples to oranges.


I assume you mean the 777 has competition from Airbus?

I’m saying it wouldn’t be any different for DL to operate a small fleet of 788’s just as they do with 777’s. Not sure how that’s an apples to oranges comparison.

I said "at the time DL ordered the 777"; were it be now, I am not sure they'd order such a small fleet.
But it's my opinion, feel free to disagree.
 
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DL717
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:40 am

Fargo wrote:
I hope they are. DL has been almost exclusively buying Airbus since the NW merger and it would be nice to see a DL Boeing order.

Not that I have a problem with DL buying Airbus (the 321neo over the 737 MAX 10 was the right move IMO), but it is disappointing when DL won't order the planes like the 787, even though they arguably need it more than UA/AA do.


The 787/A330/A350 has a wingspan problem. This thing needs to fit in a 757/767 gate. There simply aren’t enough Group V gates to go around to support using modern widebodies domestically, and full Group IV gates are in limited supply. They could make a 767 sized wing with folding wingtips for a 757 gate with this if they wanted to. Solves a lot of problems at congested airports. From what is known, this is supposedly going to be a short field bird (7200’ of runway or so). I predict a beast is in the making here that might make 757 airfield performance look like a joke.
Last edited by DL717 on Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1255
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:40 am

WayexTDI wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
OK. So, you mean "United f.k.a. Continental" has been the only loyal US airline? One would think the so-called loyalty (which goes against business-101) should lie more with the "real" United, the one that traces back to "United Air Lines, a subsidiary of United Aircraft and Transport Corporation", the one that was in bed with Boeing; the same one that bought Airbus aircraft...


There is no more PM-CO and no more PM-UA. Just United. Their business practices after the merger of the two companies is all that matters.

Of course, let's do that, let's just consider the past 9 years and forget about the previous numerous decades. Cause it suits your argument...

I think people put too much thought in so-called loyalty to Boeing or Airbus: any airline "blindly" buying from one manufacturer exclusively just for the sake of loyalty is showing poor business practice.
Some single-fleet airlines have switched, are switching or will switch from Airbus to Boeing, or vice-versa, because the other offered a better deal (although they were loyal so far to one manufacturer).
Remember that publicly traded companies have an obligation to their shareholders; not to Boeing's or Airbus'.


Staying with one manufacturer doesn't mean you're not getting the best deal.

And the day that WN, B6, NK, F9, or G4 switch to another manufacturer is the day they start selling snow cones in hell.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9527
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:49 am

nomorerjs wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
nomorerjs wrote:
DL and UA are begging for this. Others as well. A big market and Boeing is sitting in there ass for years. If Boeing doesn’t announce this year, Boeing can’t complain when DL, FI, and UA give Airbus 300 orders.


Orders for what? Airbus doesn't have a 763-sized aircraft. I guess DL and UA can order A321NEO and LR, but that's not what they want and I think if they did want it, they would have ordered it.


They want a sort of new plane. The 797 is it, but apparently Boeing doesn’t think there is a market. The more 321XLR / 321XXX, 321WTF orders the better. Boeing has milked the 737MILF until it’s lost its luster with millennials. About time for a 757/767 replacement. DL, UA, FI and others have basically begged for this. Apparently Boeing doesn’t care about their customers, and winning back DL. Their loss.


Boeing had to wait anyhow for the 797 engine iinm so it's not like they've just been sitting around contemplating their naval. There's been a lot going on behind the scenes and a mid-2020's EIS was always going to be about the best they could hope for. Might as well take your time to get it right (or decide it's not doable) than commit too early with the wrong product.

RE 737 - the shade Boeing gets for the MAX (and 737 in general) belies the fact that they've continued to sell thousands upon thousands of them and really had little to gain by going clean-sheet. Again, they needed the right engine and technology and even then they'd have to sell them at lower margins more than likely because the A320 platform was simply that much easier to NEO and thus more price-competitive. I have absolute respect for the A320 program but this childish bashing of an airframe that is wildly successful - but just not #1 - is really bizarre.

Boeing cares about their customers. And shareholders. And future. Not launching an aircraft in the timeframe that you think is appropriate is not something to get worked up over.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:52 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

There is no more PM-CO and no more PM-UA. Just United. Their business practices after the merger of the two companies is all that matters.

Of course, let's do that, let's just consider the past 9 years and forget about the previous numerous decades. Cause it suits your argument...

I think people put too much thought in so-called loyalty to Boeing or Airbus: any airline "blindly" buying from one manufacturer exclusively just for the sake of loyalty is showing poor business practice.
Some single-fleet airlines have switched, are switching or will switch from Airbus to Boeing, or vice-versa, because the other offered a better deal (although they were loyal so far to one manufacturer).
Remember that publicly traded companies have an obligation to their shareholders; not to Boeing's or Airbus'.


Staying with one manufacturer doesn't mean you're not getting the best deal.

And the day that WN, B6, NK, F9, or G4 switch to another manufacturer is the day they start selling snow cones in hell.


B6 is not single fleet. Spirit and Allegiant both switched from the MD80 to the Airbus. Frontier switched from the 737 to the Airbus. Honestly, I put zero weight in the notion that any carrier will never switch their fleets. WN is not the WN of 1980 or even 2000. The 737 can't last forever (or can it?). I'd bet $20 that WN will stay Boeing forever, but that's all. :-)
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1086
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:56 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

There is no more PM-CO and no more PM-UA. Just United. Their business practices after the merger of the two companies is all that matters.

Of course, let's do that, let's just consider the past 9 years and forget about the previous numerous decades. Cause it suits your argument...

I think people put too much thought in so-called loyalty to Boeing or Airbus: any airline "blindly" buying from one manufacturer exclusively just for the sake of loyalty is showing poor business practice.
Some single-fleet airlines have switched, are switching or will switch from Airbus to Boeing, or vice-versa, because the other offered a better deal (although they were loyal so far to one manufacturer).
Remember that publicly traded companies have an obligation to their shareholders; not to Boeing's or Airbus'.


Staying with one manufacturer doesn't mean you're not getting the best deal.

And the day that WN, B6, NK, F9, or G4 switch to another manufacturer is the day the start selling snow cones in hell.

G4 (Allegiant Air) just finished switching from a MD-80 fleet (plus a few 757's) to an all A320 Family fleet;
F9 (Frontier Airlines) switched from an all 737 fleet to an all A320 Family fleet in the early 2000's.
Nothing is impossible if you're getting a better deal in the end.
 
alyusuph
Posts: 150
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:38 am

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:58 am

The NMA can also be a very good aircraft for ME3. With its range easiuly covering most markets in Asia, Africa and europe, It will help them to solidify Dubai, Doha and Abu Dhabi as global hubs lining the three continents, and also linking the continents with the rest of the world.
I am not an Airbus or Boeing fan, just an aircraft fan
 
musman9853
Posts: 737
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 12:30 pm

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:59 am

nomorerjs wrote:
DL and UA are begging for this. Others as well. A big market and Boeing is sitting in there ass for years. If Boeing doesn’t announce this year, Boeing can’t complain when DL, FI, and UA give Airbus 300 orders.


Authority to offer will be given by Boeings board in the next couple of months
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
musman9853
Posts: 737
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 12:30 pm

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:00 am

nomorerjs wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
nomorerjs wrote:
DL and UA are begging for this. Others as well. A big market and Boeing is sitting in there ass for years. If Boeing doesn’t announce this year, Boeing can’t complain when DL, FI, and UA give Airbus 300 orders.


Orders for what? Airbus doesn't have a 763-sized aircraft. I guess DL and UA can order A321NEO and LR, but that's not what they want and I think if they did want it, they would have ordered it.


They want a sort of new plane. The 797 is it, but apparently Boeing doesn’t think there is a market. The more 321XLR / 321XXX, 321WTF orders the better. Boeing has milked the 737MILF until it’s lost its luster with millennials. About time for a 757/767 replacement. DL, UA, FI and others have basically begged for this. Apparently Boeing doesn’t care about their customers, and winning back DL. Their loss.


If there's no market why is authority to offer coming soon?
Welcome to the City Beautiful.

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