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jagraham
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:49 pm

flyabr wrote:
Boeing: Please build the darn plane! DL: Please order that darn plane so some a-netters will finally shut-up about the bad blood between you two!!! :D


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkeredflag:
 
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par13del
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:55 pm

CMH2578 wrote:
Different leadership, different philosophies.

Naw, just say what is in your best interest at the time, its mostly the same leadership.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:46 pm

This is an aircraft that could be useful to a whole lot of airlines around the world, but none more than the US3. All three of them have a significant number of missions perfectly suited for it.

I wouldn't be shocked to see McAllister up on stage with senior managers of all three of the US3 at a joint launch event in early 2020. If all three jumped in with both feet, that could easily be 400 firm orders and another 400 options, and lock up most production slots through the end of the decade.

If that happened, I'd expect DL's and UA's orders to be all new, and AA's to be a combination of new orders and a conversion of a few 787s.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:58 am

jeffrey0032j wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

And to be fair to Boeing, B6 wasn't exactly a sure-thing when they launched, either. It's hard to blame them for playing it safe and focusing on selling to established customers like CO, AA, AS, DL, etc.


To be really fair, Boeing screwed the pooch here. Neeleman had experience with Morris Air, Southwest, and WestJet, all 737 operators. It was Boeing's order to lose, and they did. Airbus happily took them as a customer and the rest is history.

To be fair, Boeing at that time (right after the MD merger), inherited the bad practices of McDonnell Douglas and became more bean counting than they were before.


That is true, as much as I loved McDonnell Douglas that is what killed them/led to Boeing buying them out.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
Cactusjuba
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:07 am

compensateme wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Great PR, but DL described its 321NEO order as replacements for older jets rather than new capacity; undountedly, it’ll teeth into the 757 fleet. Put simply, DL’s fleet is just too old to wait for the NMA — IMO, it’ll take a severe recession for DL not to exercise its 100 NEO options, which would all but extinguish the 757 fleet.

Of course, there’s plenty of room in DL’s fleet for the NMA, but it’ll soon become “fake news” on a.net that DL is clinging onto its 757 fleet until the NMA is available, when in reality the NMA would replace the 738, 320 and 767...


Lets assume your "fake news" scenario, that DL would like to hold out for the 797 as the primary replacement for the 757/767. We hear a lot about 2025 for the launch. I'll also add in common delays and delivery roll out in 2027.

By 2025, of DL's 116 752/3s, only 21 will have hit age 30. By 2027, 38.

By 2025, of the 77 763/4ERs, only 17 will hit age 30. By 2027, 22.

I see 20-40 A321NEO, 15-20 330NEO covering fine until 2025-2027.

What makes you believe based off of DL's history, that they cannot or will not keep the 757s or 767s flying up to 30 years? Especially when the best replacement, in which the CEO vocally expresses a strong need for, is just a few years off?


You’re basing your assumptions off of logical fallacies, not facts. Post-bankruptcy, DL pursued secondhand aircraft as a means to grow its fleet while limiting its cash outflow, thereby enabling it to pay down its debt. At the time, DL was explicit that the profit outlook within the airline industry is limited.

But then a funny thing happened - DL started to make money. Lots and lots of money. And new management responded by buying new airplanes - lots and lots of new airplanes; the orders DL placed for delivery within a six year period collectively add up to one of the largest in history.

The thing most a.netters don’t understand... when you have a business that’s generating a large amount of taxable income + lots and lots of cash, you generally want to put some of that money back into the company, since it will lower your tax rate in the short-term and reduce other expenses over the LT.

When DL places its NEO order, it was clear that it was to replace “older, inefficient” aircraft. As I’ve mentioned before, the MD-88 represent less than 25% of the capacity DL has on order, which is a huge clue that they haven’t released their complete fleet renewal plans.

Yet a handful of posters like you want to pretend DL
Isn’t going to retire anything, and in fact will open up a hub in the desert to rotate aircraft in-and-out of its fleet. You’ve mentioned that DL — already struggling with the R&M of the MD90 (and it goes beyond engine overhaul) —- plans to keep a fleet of 25 long-term, and others mention DL is desperately trying to bring the MD90 engine overhaul in house, spending into the hundreds of millions. Fake news indeed.

Again, while I don’t doubt DL is interested in a 32X/737 replacement and direct 767 replacement, these aircraft are many years away and DL will continue to take delivery (barring a severe recession) of new aircraft until that point.

The 797 may find a home in DL’s fleet, but these massive orders predicted here are ridiculous - by the time it’s available for delivery, there will be few 757 in DL’s fleet - if any.


Compensate, take a breather guy. No need to get worked up. You did a good job of misquoting my words and strawmaning the context. Keep 25 MD90s long term? Never said nor implied that.

Last time, for clarity. There is no firm retirement set for the MD90. DL has the option to accelerate or delay the retirement as conditions warrant (ex: fuel, mx, aircraft deliveries, CAPEX, charter expansion, etc). The retirement date hasn't been firmed up yet, and many of those parked frames are intentionally being stored with the intent to return. The plan as of 2019 is to do just that. How long will they fly/or at all? You decide. (Notice, the statements expressed are not my opinion. Just reporting)... Source: CEO, VP of FOP & VP Network.
Last edited by Cactusjuba on Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 253
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:14 am

compensateme wrote:
You’re basing your assumptions off of logical fallacies, not facts. Post-bankruptcy, DL pursued secondhand aircraft as a means to grow its fleet while limiting its cash outflow, thereby enabling it to pay down its debt. At the time, DL was explicit that the profit outlook within the airline industry is limited.

But then a funny thing happened - DL started to make money. Lots and lots of money. And new management responded by buying new airplanes - lots and lots of new airplanes; the orders DL placed for delivery within a six year period collectively add up to one of the largest in history.

The thing most a.netters don’t understand... when you have a business that’s generating a large amount of taxable income + lots and lots of cash, you generally want to put some of that money back into the company, since it will lower your tax rate in the short-term and reduce other expenses over the LT.

When DL places its NEO order, it was clear that it was to replace “older, inefficient” aircraft. As I’ve mentioned before, the MD-88 represent less than 25% of the capacity DL has on order, which is a huge clue that they haven’t released their complete fleet renewal plans.

Yet a handful of posters like you want to pretend DL
Isn’t going to retire anything, and in fact will open up a hub in the desert to rotate aircraft in-and-out of its fleet. You’ve mentioned that DL — already struggling with the R&M of the MD90 (and it goes beyond engine overhaul) —- plans to keep a fleet of 25 long-term, and others mention DL is desperately trying to bring the MD90 engine overhaul in house, spending into the hundreds of millions. Fake news indeed.

Again, while I don’t doubt DL is interested in a 32X/737 replacement and direct 767 replacement, these aircraft are many years away and DL will continue to take delivery (barring a severe recession) of new aircraft until that point.

The 797 may find a home in DL’s fleet, but these massive orders predicted here are ridiculous - by the time it’s available for delivery, there will be few 757 in DL’s fleet - if any.


Just for fun, I'll play your game. Taken from Jan 1st: orders for 18 739, 62 A321ceo, 36 A221, 50 A223, and 100 321neo = 45k new domestic seats (68k with 100 321neo & 15 A223 options). All the old domestic possible retirements by 2025: 84 MD88, 43 MD90, 2 767, 116 757s, 34 320s, 91 717s,?50? CRJ = 55k seats. If all options are exercised, this leaves just 2k seats, or 1.3% growth per yr over 6 years.

DL has about 150k domestic seats on their aircraft. Each year, domestic capacity grows between 3.5-4.5% each year, with the network growth plan to continue at this rate. That's about 5k seats annually, 30k by 2025. Summarily: 68k (max orders) - 30k (growth) = 38k available to retire. MD88/90 + 34 early 90s 320s + 2 domestic 767 + 50 CR2s is already over 30k, 40k with the 717 (leased until 2025).

Conclusion: There aren't enough orders to replace all the MD88/90s, 30yr old 320s, CR2s, 717s and 757s without near stagnant growth for 6 years. More orders are needed. One could also stretch out the retirement schedule on some flexible fleets. If the 797 becomes a reality, most of the 757s will be able to fly into the late 2020s if needed to await it.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:16 am

Apart from the remaining B739 order, Delta has no Boeing Aircraft on order whatsoever. Then, there's the A220/CS Series fiasco.
I see no chance for Boeing land Delta the Launch Customer opportunity for their NMA.
Delta has burned enough bridges and, in my view, this has not been forgotten. People say that if they show the money, Boeing will yield but this would only be truth if they did not/do not/will not have United and American also in the frame. I do not know about American but United certainly is and, after sticking with Boeing when the B787 was having problems - whereas Delta was busy ordering A330s - it is theirs to lose. in USA only AA can do something about it. DLs is dead on this unless something big changes.
Any other launch customer will probably be non US or at least a non-US3.
Note - United was NOT the launch customer of the A350 but still have some on order. Delta may end up the same way (the most likely scenario).
 
brindabella
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:20 pm

musman9853 wrote:
nomorerjs wrote:
DocLightning wrote:

Orders for what? Airbus doesn't have a 763-sized aircraft. I guess DL and UA can order A321NEO and LR, but that's not what they want and I think if they did want it, they would have ordered it.


They want a sort of new plane. The 797 is it, but apparently Boeing doesn’t think there is a market. The more 321XLR / 321XXX, 321WTF orders the better. Boeing has milked the 737MILF until it’s lost its luster with millennials. About time for a 757/767 replacement. DL, UA, FI and others have basically begged for this. Apparently Boeing doesn’t care about their customers, and winning back DL. Their loss.


If there's no market why is authority to offer coming soon?


:worried:

Sadly, it is because the BA Board has not been reading A-net.
So, in their delusional state, the Board-members really believe that there is a market for the NMA.

Whereas it has been comprehensively proven on these pages that:

1) The BA company analysis that a market of 4-5,000 exists in fact overstates by a factor of 2.
At least. If not more.
2) Further, the A321neo family will take much more than 1/2 of what is left.
At least. If not more.

So what will be left for the NMA?

Precious little ...

So the BA Board had better get up to speed and read A-net pretty damn soon b4 that same Board makes a terrible terrible mistake!

:yes:

All clear now?

cheers
Billy
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:40 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
Apart from the remaining B739 order, Delta has no Boeing Aircraft on order whatsoever. Then, there's the A220/CS Series fiasco.
I see no chance for Boeing land Delta the Launch Customer opportunity for their NMA.
Delta has burned enough bridges and, in my view, this has not been forgotten. People say that if they show the money, Boeing will yield but this would only be truth if they did not/do not/will not have United and American also in the frame. I do not know about American but United certainly is and, after sticking with Boeing when the B787 was having problems - whereas Delta was busy ordering A330s - it is theirs to lose. in USA only AA can do something about it. DLs is dead on this unless something big changes.
Any other launch customer will probably be non US or at least a non-US3.
Note - United was NOT the launch customer of the A350 but still have some on order. Delta may end up the same way (the most likely scenario).

Never say never. Airlines, like most big businesses, do not run on emotions but hard $$$ numbers.

Remember when everybody "knew" AA would never ever order Airbus aircraft? Guess those 260 A320 Family ordered on July 20, 2011 were the new Boeing A320's...

DL has been heavily biased towards Airbus since the DL-NW merger; but they still ordered 130 737-900ER's; that's not pocket-change.

DL will order Boeing planes if they fit DL needs (purchase cost, operating cost & profile); similarly, Boeing will sell DL their planes if Boeing agrees on DL request for price and delivery. It's called a contract, which, by definition, is a set of mutually agreed upon conditions (emphasis on mutually agreed upon).
 
musman9853
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:10 pm

brindabella wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
nomorerjs wrote:

They want a sort of new plane. The 797 is it, but apparently Boeing doesn’t think there is a market. The more 321XLR / 321XXX, 321WTF orders the better. Boeing has milked the 737MILF until it’s lost its luster with millennials. About time for a 757/767 replacement. DL, UA, FI and others have basically begged for this. Apparently Boeing doesn’t care about their customers, and winning back DL. Their loss.


If there's no market why is authority to offer coming soon?


:worried:

Sadly, it is because the BA Board has not been reading A-net.
So, in their delusional state, the Board-members really believe that there is a market for the NMA.

Whereas it has been comprehensively proven on these pages that:

1) The BA company analysis that a market of 4-5,000 exists in fact overstates by a factor of 2.
At least. If not more.
2) Further, the A321neo family will take much more than 1/2 of what is left.
At least. If not more.

So what will be left for the NMA?

Precious little ...

So the BA Board had better get up to speed and read A-net pretty damn soon b4 that same Board makes a terrible terrible mistake!

:yes:

All clear now?

cheers



lol if you think that this board is anything other than wild speculation i don't know what to tell you. Also, even if your very unsourced claims are accurate, boeing would still sell upwards of 1k 797s. more likely that there's a market for around 2k Planes.
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
jetlanta
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:59 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
Apart from the remaining B739 order, Delta has no Boeing Aircraft on order whatsoever. Then, there's the A220/CS Series fiasco.
I see no chance for Boeing land Delta the Launch Customer opportunity for their NMA.
Delta has burned enough bridges and, in my view, this has not been forgotten. People say that if they show the money, Boeing will yield but this would only be truth if they did not/do not/will not have United and American also in the frame. I do not know about American but United certainly is and, after sticking with Boeing when the B787 was having problems - whereas Delta was busy ordering A330s - it is theirs to lose. in USA only AA can do something about it. DLs is dead on this unless something big changes.
Any other launch customer will probably be non US or at least a non-US3.
Note - United was NOT the launch customer of the A350 but still have some on order. Delta may end up the same way (the most likely scenario).


Lord have mercy. All the wrong takes.

None of this works like this.

Delta could order 100+ of these things. Boeing burnt bridges with Delta just as much as Delta with Boeing. Only one of them is the CUSTOMER. Delta is actually involved in the development process of the NMA. The idea that either party would not do business with each other is ridiculous. Boeing NEEDS Delta to make the NMA work. It needs AA and UA too.
 
bigjku
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:05 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
Apart from the remaining B739 order, Delta has no Boeing Aircraft on order whatsoever. Then, there's the A220/CS Series fiasco.
I see no chance for Boeing land Delta the Launch Customer opportunity for their NMA.
Delta has burned enough bridges and, in my view, this has not been forgotten. People say that if they show the money, Boeing will yield but this would only be truth if they did not/do not/will not have United and American also in the frame. I do not know about American but United certainly is and, after sticking with Boeing when the B787 was having problems - whereas Delta was busy ordering A330s - it is theirs to lose. in USA only AA can do something about it. DLs is dead on this unless something big changes.
Any other launch customer will probably be non US or at least a non-US3.
Note - United was NOT the launch customer of the A350 but still have some on order. Delta may end up the same way (the most likely scenario).


The US3 have been joint launch customers before on projects and will do so again. Their interest are too aligned to not cooperate here.
 
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klm617
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:14 pm

What Ed really means to say here is "Boeing if you are able to cut us a deal we can't refuse we will buy 200 of these new aircraft." Nothing more nothing less just more smoke and mirrors from Delta corporate.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
carljanderson
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:38 pm

klm617 wrote:
What Ed really means to say here is "Boeing if you are able to cut us a deal we can't refuse we will buy 200 of these new aircraft." Nothing more nothing less just more smoke and mirrors from Delta corporate.


"cut us a deal we can't refuse" is the mantra of every CEO of every company no matter the size.
 
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klm617
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:42 pm

carljanderson wrote:
klm617 wrote:
What Ed really means to say here is "Boeing if you are able to cut us a deal we can't refuse we will buy 200 of these new aircraft." Nothing more nothing less just more smoke and mirrors from Delta corporate.


"cut us a deal we can't refuse" is the mantra of every CEO of every company no matter the size.


Exactly and this is why this whole thing is nothing more than Ed making it known he is interested if the price is right. Otherwise he could care less if he is the launch customer of the new Boeing product.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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OA940
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:47 pm

If Boeing ever decides to launch this aircraft DL will use it for TATL and TCON. A321/neo will replace most domestic 752s eventually, but DL still has an entire TATL fleet, the 753s and the 767s they need to get rid of. Definitely would warrant a 100+ order. Plus for peak hours on routes like JFK-LAX they may prefer larger planes.

Edit: Boeing really is wasting valuable time with this decision. If they don't launch the plane this year it's safe to suggest the 2025 EIS is out of the picture, and along with it will go at least a few airlines interested in the 797 that have ageing 757/767 fleets.
Last edited by OA940 on Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
winginit
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:48 pm

klm617 wrote:
carljanderson wrote:
klm617 wrote:
What Ed really means to say here is "Boeing if you are able to cut us a deal we can't refuse we will buy 200 of these new aircraft." Nothing more nothing less just more smoke and mirrors from Delta corporate.


"cut us a deal we can't refuse" is the mantra of every CEO of every company no matter the size.


Exactly and this is why this whole thing is nothing more than Ed making it known he is interested if the price is right. Otherwise he could care less if he is the launch customer of the new Boeing product.


Is that a bad thing? Sounds like good messaging that's not dissimilar from what every other CEO does in every industry. Being the launch customer of a new fleet type or iteration has historically been more risk than reward anyway so naturally the price would have to be right.
 
justloveplanes
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:21 pm

I would say Ed Bastian is being astute. He is negotiating in the press to pressure the Boeing board to launch with Delta. My assessment is the 797 is relatively low risk. It will use the 787 systems platform (largely debugged), plus evolved CFRP and engines. So less risk than a normal all new AC. The debugged systems platform is a side benefit of the hyper extended tech reach on the 787. So Delta doing something they heretofore avoided....being a launch customer.
 
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klm617
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:53 am

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
carljanderson wrote:

"cut us a deal we can't refuse" is the mantra of every CEO of every company no matter the size.


Exactly and this is why this whole thing is nothing more than Ed making it known he is interested if the price is right. Otherwise he could care less if he is the launch customer of the new Boeing product.


Is that a bad thing? Sounds like good messaging that's not dissimilar from what every other CEO does in every industry. Being the launch customer of a new fleet type or iteration has historically been more risk than reward anyway so naturally the price would have to be right.


While manipulation may be a common practice In the business world it's never an honorable action. See it for what it is manipulation to ensure a desired goal. If you think that's OK then I would have to question your the level of your character getting onboard with this idea.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:29 am

jetlanta wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
Apart from the remaining B739 order, Delta has no Boeing Aircraft on order whatsoever. Then, there's the A220/CS Series fiasco.
I see no chance for Boeing land Delta the Launch Customer opportunity for their NMA.
Delta has burned enough bridges and, in my view, this has not been forgotten. People say that if they show the money, Boeing will yield but this would only be truth if they did not/do not/will not have United and American also in the frame. I do not know about American but United certainly is and, after sticking with Boeing when the B787 was having problems - whereas Delta was busy ordering A330s - it is theirs to lose. in USA only AA can do something about it. DLs is dead on this unless something big changes.
Any other launch customer will probably be non US or at least a non-US3.
Note - United was NOT the launch customer of the A350 but still have some on order. Delta may end up the same way (the most likely scenario).


Lord have mercy. All the wrong takes.

None of this works like this.

Delta could order 100+ of these things. Boeing burnt bridges with Delta just as much as Delta with Boeing. Only one of them is the CUSTOMER. Delta is actually involved in the development process of the NMA. The idea that either party would not do business with each other is ridiculous. Boeing NEEDS Delta to make the NMA work. It needs AA and UA too.


Boeing has done just fine with the 787 design without Delta's input. Saying they need Delra for the 797 just isn't true.
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:50 am

Cactusjuba wrote:
compensateme wrote:
You’re basing your assumptions off of logical fallacies, not facts. Post-bankruptcy, DL pursued secondhand aircraft as a means to grow its fleet while limiting its cash outflow, thereby enabling it to pay down its debt. At the time, DL was explicit that the profit outlook within the airline industry is limited.

But then a funny thing happened - DL started to make money. Lots and lots of money. And new management responded by buying new airplanes - lots and lots of new airplanes; the orders DL placed for delivery within a six year period collectively add up to one of the largest in history.

The thing most a.netters don’t understand... when you have a business that’s generating a large amount of taxable income + lots and lots of cash, you generally want to put some of that money back into the company, since it will lower your tax rate in the short-term and reduce other expenses over the LT.

When DL places its NEO order, it was clear that it was to replace “older, inefficient” aircraft. As I’ve mentioned before, the MD-88 represent less than 25% of the capacity DL has on order, which is a huge clue that they haven’t released their complete fleet renewal plans.

Yet a handful of posters like you want to pretend DL
Isn’t going to retire anything, and in fact will open up a hub in the desert to rotate aircraft in-and-out of its fleet. You’ve mentioned that DL — already struggling with the R&M of the MD90 (and it goes beyond engine overhaul) —- plans to keep a fleet of 25 long-term, and others mention DL is desperately trying to bring the MD90 engine overhaul in house, spending into the hundreds of millions. Fake news indeed.

Again, while I don’t doubt DL is interested in a 32X/737 replacement and direct 767 replacement, these aircraft are many years away and DL will continue to take delivery (barring a severe recession) of new aircraft until that point.

The 797 may find a home in DL’s fleet, but these massive orders predicted here are ridiculous - by the time it’s available for delivery, there will be few 757 in DL’s fleet - if any.


Just for fun, I'll play your game. Taken from Jan 1st: orders for 18 739, 62 A321ceo, 36 A221, 50 A223, and 100 321neo = 45k new domestic seats (68k with 100 321neo & 15 A223 options). All the old domestic possible retirements by 2025: 84 MD88, 43 MD90, 2 767, 116 757s, 34 320s, 91 717s,?50? CRJ = 55k seats. If all options are exercised, this leaves just 2k seats, or 1.3% growth per yr over 6 years.

DL has about 150k domestic seats on their aircraft. Each year, domestic capacity grows between 3.5-4.5% each year, with the network growth plan to continue at this rate. That's about 5k seats annually, 30k by 2025. Summarily: 68k (max orders) - 30k (growth) = 38k available to retire. MD88/90 + 34 early 90s 320s + 2 domestic 767 + 50 CR2s is already over 30k, 40k with the 717 (leased until 2025).

Conclusion: There aren't enough orders to replace all the MD88/90s, 30yr old 320s, CR2s, 717s and 757s without near stagnant growth for 6 years. More orders are needed. One could also stretch out the retirement schedule on some flexible fleets. If the 797 becomes a reality, most of the 757s will be able to fly into the late 2020s if needed to await it.


Another thing that's always never mentioned is that the current A320 and 757 fleets are about the same age.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:02 am

klm617 wrote:
While manipulation may be a common practice In the business world it's never an honorable action. See it for what it is manipulation to ensure a desired goal. If you think that's OK then I would have to question your the level of your character getting onboard with this idea.


Oh my goodness, grab the fainting salts! :faint: A business executive said what he wanted, accurately and without deception, in the press!

"Manipulation" would be if he were being deceptive or obfuscatory in some way. He's saying very straightforwardly that he wants to launch NMA but that the price has to be right. That's not only totally unexceptionable, it's something everyone already knew.

TTailedTiger wrote:
Boeing has done just fine with the 787 design without Delta's input. Saying they need Delra for the 797 just isn't true.


Really? Have you forgotten this little airline called Northwest, that is now legally Delta, and that was set for years to take 787 frames #3 and #4? What is now Delta was very heavily involved in the 787 program from the start. Unfortunately, they ended up with too many midsize widebody orders after the merger and the late, overweight early 787 was the casualty.
Last edited by seabosdca on Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
jetlanta
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:05 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
jetlanta wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
Apart from the remaining B739 order, Delta has no Boeing Aircraft on order whatsoever. Then, there's the A220/CS Series fiasco.
I see no chance for Boeing land Delta the Launch Customer opportunity for their NMA.
Delta has burned enough bridges and, in my view, this has not been forgotten. People say that if they show the money, Boeing will yield but this would only be truth if they did not/do not/will not have United and American also in the frame. I do not know about American but United certainly is and, after sticking with Boeing when the B787 was having problems - whereas Delta was busy ordering A330s - it is theirs to lose. in USA only AA can do something about it. DLs is dead on this unless something big changes.
Any other launch customer will probably be non US or at least a non-US3.
Note - United was NOT the launch customer of the A350 but still have some on order. Delta may end up the same way (the most likely scenario).


Lord have mercy. All the wrong takes.

None of this works like this.

Delta could order 100+ of these things. Boeing burnt bridges with Delta just as much as Delta with Boeing. Only one of them is the CUSTOMER. Delta is actually involved in the development process of the NMA. The idea that either party would not do business with each other is ridiculous. Boeing NEEDS Delta to make the NMA work. It needs AA and UA too.


Boeing has done just fine with the 787 design without Delta's input. Saying they need Delra for the 797 just isn't true.


Umm, I didn't say they need it. I said they are getting it.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:11 am

jetlanta wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
jetlanta wrote:

Lord have mercy. All the wrong takes.

None of this works like this.

Delta could order 100+ of these things. Boeing burnt bridges with Delta just as much as Delta with Boeing. Only one of them is the CUSTOMER. Delta is actually involved in the development process of the NMA. The idea that either party would not do business with each other is ridiculous. Boeing NEEDS Delta to make the NMA work. It needs AA and UA too.


Boeing has done just fine with the 787 design without Delta's input. Saying they need Delra for the 797 just isn't true.


Umm, I didn't say they need it. I said they are getting it.


You said "Boeing NEEDS Delta to make the NMA work".
 
jetlanta
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:15 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
jetlanta wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Boeing has done just fine with the 787 design without Delta's input. Saying they need Delra for the 797 just isn't true.


Umm, I didn't say they need it. I said they are getting it.


You said "Boeing NEEDS Delta to make the NMA work".


I was referring to their "input", in my response. But I actually think that a significant portion of the business case for the NMA relies on replacing the 757/767 fleets at the DL/AA/UA. Without those orders, this airplane faces a tough road. It is not the same as the 787.
 
winginit
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:29 am

klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:

Exactly and this is why this whole thing is nothing more than Ed making it known he is interested if the price is right. Otherwise he could care less if he is the launch customer of the new Boeing product.


Is that a bad thing? Sounds like good messaging that's not dissimilar from what every other CEO does in every industry. Being the launch customer of a new fleet type or iteration has historically been more risk than reward anyway so naturally the price would have to be right.


While manipulation may be a common practice In the business world it's never an honorable action. See it for what it is manipulation to ensure a desired goal. If you think that's OK then I would have to question your the level of your character getting onboard with this idea.


Please identify which part of Ed's quote below is in any way manipulative:

Delta Air Lines CEO hopes Boeing decides to launch its New Mid-market Airplane soon because his airline must replace almost 200 older Boeing 767 and 757 jets slated to retire in the next decade.

"It represents a significant opportunity for Delta," Delta CEO Ed Bastian said in a recent, exclusive interview with the Puget Sound Business Journal.

Bastian reiterated that Delta, the nation's second-largest airline ranked by passengers carried, wants to be the launch customer for Boeing's potential new jet.

"We're in discussions at a very preliminary stage with Boeing and we've expressed our interest to the management team," Bastian said. "The ball really is in Boeing's court. They've heard us."


I'll summarize his conclusions there for you that were stated outright:

1. The NMA represents a significant opportunity for Delta
2. Delta is in discussions with Boeing relating to the NMA project, and the company has expressed their interest in being the launch customer for the new product if it comes to fruition
3. The ball is obviously in Boeing's court in that it's up to them to create the discussed product

Is your conclusion that Ed Bastian is being manipulative by not stating outright that Delta is committed to being the launch customer of the NMA product sight unseen and without a sense for capability or price? That would, of course, be foolish.

Please clarify where you see manipulation, or post what you think would be a statement that you wouldn't consider manipulative.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:35 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
Apart from the remaining B739 order, Delta has no Boeing Aircraft on order whatsoever. Then, there's the A220/CS Series fiasco.
I see no chance for Boeing land Delta the Launch Customer opportunity for their NMA.
Delta has burned enough bridges and, in my view, this has not been forgotten. People say that if they show the money, Boeing will yield but this would only be truth if they did not/do not/will not have United and American also in the frame. I do not know about American but United certainly is and, after sticking with Boeing when the B787 was having problems - whereas Delta was busy ordering A330s - it is theirs to lose. in USA only AA can do something about it. DLs is dead on this unless something big changes.
Any other launch customer will probably be non US or at least a non-US3.
Note - United was NOT the launch customer of the A350 but still have some on order. Delta may end up the same way (the most likely scenario).

Never say never. Airlines, like most big businesses, do not run on emotions but hard $$$ numbers.

Remember when everybody "knew" AA would never ever order Airbus aircraft? Guess those 260 A320 Family ordered on July 20, 2011 were the new Boeing A320's...

DL has been heavily biased towards Airbus since the DL-NW merger; but they still ordered 130 737-900ER's; that's not pocket-change.

DL will order Boeing planes if they fit DL needs (purchase cost, operating cost & profile); similarly, Boeing will sell DL their planes if Boeing agrees on DL request for price and delivery. It's called a contract, which, by definition, is a set of mutually agreed upon conditions (emphasis on mutually agreed upon).


Thanks for your input.

I am not saying that DL will not be able to buy Boeing in the future. It is their wish to be the B797 Launch customer which is at stake.

AA's order for the A320 family was never as sour as DLs acquisition of the C-Series.

What I am saying in a nutshell is that, provided Boeing can look elsewhere for a launch customer within the US3, they will do so and DL will have no chance. Having said that, again, this does not prevents DL from actually buying the aircraft in future if Airbus cannot provide a suitable alternative.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:39 am

bigjku wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
Apart from the remaining B739 order, Delta has no Boeing Aircraft on order whatsoever. Then, there's the A220/CS Series fiasco.
I see no chance for Boeing land Delta the Launch Customer opportunity for their NMA.
Delta has burned enough bridges and, in my view, this has not been forgotten. People say that if they show the money, Boeing will yield but this would only be truth if they did not/do not/will not have United and American also in the frame. I do not know about American but United certainly is and, after sticking with Boeing when the B787 was having problems - whereas Delta was busy ordering A330s - it is theirs to lose. in USA only AA can do something about it. DLs is dead on this unless something big changes.
Any other launch customer will probably be non US or at least a non-US3.
Note - United was NOT the launch customer of the A350 but still have some on order. Delta may end up the same way (the most likely scenario).


The US3 have been joint launch customers before on projects and will do so again. Their interest are too aligned to not cooperate here.


That could work but a sole DL bid will not unless something change and/or Boeing cannot look elsewhere within the US Market for a US launch customer.
 
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anfromme
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:25 am

Jomar777 wrote:
Apart from the remaining B739 order, Delta has no Boeing Aircraft on order whatsoever. Then, there's the A220/CS Series fiasco.
I see no chance for Boeing land Delta the Launch Customer opportunity for their NMA.


Firstly, as has been pointed out, by winginit, among others: Yes, there was a lot of bad blood between DL and Boeing around various topics. Boeing certainly didn't endear themselves to DL when they tried to get the CSeries effectively banned from the US.
And yet - DL ordered no fewer than 130 737-900s after the merger. That is no pocket-change by any stretch of the imagination.
As for "Launch Customer Opportunity" - that's an interesting way of framing it. Because usually it's the OEMs who are really trying hard to get launch customers.
Hence the phrase "launch customer discounts". There is a lot of risk entailed with being the launch customer. Look at the joy the 787 and the A380 gave to launch customers, or the 747-100 with its early engine issues, or the 747-8 with its rear tank issues, or the A346 with its issues. Actually, look no further than the A320neo.
If you're the launch customer, you're committing to an unproven product that is likely to be subject to delays, might not meet performance specs right off the bat, still has grey areas in its spec sheets, and generally will have a few teething issues, never mind that early examples tend to be a bit heavy and hard to sell again.
I'm in IT, and it's the same story there - organisations that commit to a new (if very promising) product early on, really need to know what they're getting themselves into, and what resources this will bind.

So really, DL is offering Boeing the opportunity to have at least one of the US3 as a launch customer. And I promise they'll gladly take them if they can win them over. That would be a good way of demonstrating that B and DL are on good terms again, too.
All of course provided the final launch specs actually meet DL's requirements.

Jomar777 wrote:
I could counter your argument on this but cannot and will not waste my time if you are not mature enough to accept other people's points.

Curious you would even reply, then.
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:05 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
And the day that WN, B6, NK, F9, or G4 switch to another manufacturer is the day they start selling snow cones in hell.

That's a rather ignorant statement, seeing as all but one of those carriers has either added or switched from one manufacturer to another, in relatively recent history.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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klm617
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:39 pm

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
winginit wrote:

Is that a bad thing? Sounds like good messaging that's not dissimilar from what every other CEO does in every industry. Being the launch customer of a new fleet type or iteration has historically been more risk than reward anyway so naturally the price would have to be right.


While manipulation may be a common practice In the business world it's never an honorable action. See it for what it is manipulation to ensure a desired goal. If you think that's OK then I would have to question your the level of your character getting onboard with this idea.


Please identify which part of Ed's quote below is in any way manipulative:

Delta Air Lines CEO hopes Boeing decides to launch its New Mid-market Airplane soon because his airline must replace almost 200 older Boeing 767 and 757 jets slated to retire in the next decade.

"It represents a significant opportunity for Delta," Delta CEO Ed Bastian said in a recent, exclusive interview with the Puget Sound Business Journal.

Bastian reiterated that Delta, the nation's second-largest airline ranked by passengers carried, wants to be the launch customer for Boeing's potential new jet.

"We're in discussions at a very preliminary stage with Boeing and we've expressed our interest to the management team," Bastian said. "The ball really is in Boeing's court. They've heard us."


I'll summarize his conclusions there for you that were stated outright:

1. The NMA represents a significant opportunity for Delta
2. Delta is in discussions with Boeing relating to the NMA project, and the company has expressed their interest in being the launch customer for the new product if it comes to fruition
3. The ball is obviously in Boeing's court in that it's up to them to create the discussed product

Is your conclusion that Ed Bastian is being manipulative by not stating outright that Delta is committed to being the launch customer of the NMA product sight unseen and without a sense for capability or price? That would, of course, be foolish.

Please clarify where you see manipulation, or post what you think would be a statement that you wouldn't consider manipulative.


Putting a statement out there to achieve a desired result and if you don't get what you want you walk away. He has no commitment to being the NMA customer if the deal isn't on his terms.


Definition of manipulate



transitive verb


1 : to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
//manipulate a pencil

//manipulate a machine


2a : to manage or utilize skillfully
//quantify our data and manipulate it statistically

— S. L. Payne

b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
pabloeing
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:17 pm

If DL want to be launch customer of the B797 is easy......to buy the plane.....something that years ago is no normal with Boeing for DL
 
JAAlbert
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:38 pm

seabosdca wrote:
This is an aircraft that could be useful to a whole lot of airlines around the world, but none more than the US3. All three of them have a significant number of missions perfectly suited for it.


It certainly would be nice for us passengers to have some widebody flights domestically. D
 
bigjku
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:42 pm

JAAlbert wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
This is an aircraft that could be useful to a whole lot of airlines around the world, but none more than the US3. All three of them have a significant number of missions perfectly suited for it.


It certainly would be nice for us passengers to have some widebody flights domestically. D


Moreover the US3 are one of the few airlines in the world that have what amount to shuttle flights 8-12 times a day between their various hubs. Consolidating and cutting down some of those frees up gates and flights to be used to being in more traffic. It makes a ton of sense if they can make it work.
 
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klm617
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:49 pm

pabloeing wrote:
If DL want to be launch customer of the B797 is easy......to buy the plane.....something that years ago is no normal with Boeing for DL


You become the launch customer by placing an order. Ed put your money where your mouth is and order 150 NMA aircraft so production can move forward it's as simple as that and you will be the launch customer.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:54 pm

klm617 wrote:
pabloeing wrote:
If DL want to be launch customer of the B797 is easy......to buy the plane.....something that years ago is no normal with Boeing for DL


You become the launch customer by placing an order. Ed put your money where your mouth is and order 150 NMA aircraft so production can move forward it's as simple as that and you will be the launch customer.

Except when said plane has yet to be officially offered for sale.
I'm sure discussions are taking place, but nothing can be announced before it is officially offered for sale.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:10 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
klm617 wrote:
pabloeing wrote:
If DL want to be launch customer of the B797 is easy......to buy the plane.....something that years ago is no normal with Boeing for DL


You become the launch customer by placing an order. Ed put your money where your mouth is and order 150 NMA aircraft so production can move forward it's as simple as that and you will be the launch customer.

Except when said plane has yet to be officially offered for sale.
I'm sure discussions are taking place, but nothing can be announced before it is officially offered for sale.

Official launch is often conditional, by both sides, on a minimum number of orders and additional airlines buying the type. Even pricing is determined (at risk to airframers and engine vendor).

In the next 45 days first contracts must be signed to sell to launch at Paris (to ensure enough orders).

No one wants a single customer airframe. Not the leasing companies, not the buying airline, and of course not the airframers and engine vendor.

I've worked detailed engineering all the way well into qual testing of subsystems (component design complete, built, and into testing at risk no issues found and orders happen) before an official launch.

75% make it into service. 25% are buried as an R&D expense of the programs that make it that far.

From what I can see, money is flowing to vendors. Boeing must expect they could launch at Paris. I'm not saying it is yet 100% certain. I would say > 75% chance.

Lightsaber
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texl1649
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:31 pm

bigjku wrote:
JAAlbert wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
This is an aircraft that could be useful to a whole lot of airlines around the world, but none more than the US3. All three of them have a significant number of missions perfectly suited for it.


It certainly would be nice for us passengers to have some widebody flights domestically. D


Moreover the US3 are one of the few airlines in the world that have what amount to shuttle flights 8-12 times a day between their various hubs. Consolidating and cutting down some of those frees up gates and flights to be used to being in more traffic. It makes a ton of sense if they can make it work.


I think you are absolutely correct. This is the land of 1-4 hour flights between hubs for the US3 (and, increasingly, SWA for some time). Alaska, Jet Blue, and Hawaiian as well. Maxed out narrow bodies also limit premium seating options/space, as well as cargo (which is only increasing), driving a real need for the light widebody as has been discussed ad nauseum.

I also have a sneaking suspicion this new aircraft could be useful in pilot union negotiations in conjunction with, oh, A220/E2/Mitsubishi regional concessions...
 
winginit
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:52 pm

klm617 wrote:
pabloeing wrote:
If DL want to be launch customer of the B797 is easy......to buy the plane.....something that years ago is no normal with Boeing for DL


You become the launch customer by placing an order. Ed put your money where your mouth is and order 150 NMA aircraft so production can move forward it's as simple as that and you will be the launch customer.


First and foremost, the plane isn't yet for sale so Ed very much can't do that, and secondly as I hope you know having a single customer will not move production forward.
 
JAAlbert
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:14 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Official launch is often conditional, by both sides, on a minimum number of orders and additional airlines buying the type. Even pricing is determined (at risk to airframers and engine vendor).


Doesn't the Boeing board of directors issue an "authority to offer" which allows Boeing to shop for potential orders? If the board believes orders are sufficient it then authorizes a launch?
 
musman9853
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:54 am

JAAlbert wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Official launch is often conditional, by both sides, on a minimum number of orders and additional airlines buying the type. Even pricing is determined (at risk to airframers and engine vendor).


Doesn't the Boeing board of directors issue an "authority to offer" which allows Boeing to shop for potential orders? If the board believes orders are sufficient it then authorizes a launch?



Pretty much. ATO for the 797 is coming within the next few weeks
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
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vanguard737
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:52 am

WayexTDI wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Of course. Because United does not operate 170 A320 Family (+34 A319's on order as second-hand) nor does it have 45 A350-900's on order...


The A350 was ordered before the merger. The A319 were acquired USED since they got them dirt cheap and could quickly replace 50 seat regional jets. United has hundreds of new 737's on order. United has ordered nothing from Airbus since the merger. I'm sure Boeing wants to keep it that way.

OK. So, you mean "United f.k.a. Continental" has been the only loyal US airline? One would think the so-called loyalty (which goes against business-101) should lie more with the "real" United, the one that traces back to "United Air Lines, a subsidiary of United Aircraft and Transport Corporation", the one that was in bed with Boeing; the same one that bought Airbus aircraft...


You seem to have a chip on your shoulder regarding United? Also I am confused as to what point you are trying to make with your UATC history lesson. Are you seriously mad at United for agreeing to lease A320s in 1992 (and later the A319s) simply because United and Boeing were a part of the same company until 1934, lol?

I understand the point TTailedTiger is making. United has operated every model of commercial aircraft produced by Boeing all the way back to the 247. With exception to their ancient 319/20s, and the second-hand ones coming on line soon, United hasn't acquired a new aircraft directly from Airbus in almost 30 years. Compare that to the large and ever-growing (as well as past) Airbus fleets at Delta (A310, 319/20/21, 330, 350, 220) and American (A300, 319/20/21, 330).

Seems logical United should want the biggest say in the NMA and feel the most justified in making that expectation known.
319 320 321 359 717 722 732 733 735 73G 738 739 744 748 752 753 763 764 772 773 788 789 781 DC9 DC10 MD80 B1900 S340 E120 E145 E170 E175 CRJ CR7
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:00 am

vanguard737 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

The A350 was ordered before the merger. The A319 were acquired USED since they got them dirt cheap and could quickly replace 50 seat regional jets. United has hundreds of new 737's on order. United has ordered nothing from Airbus since the merger. I'm sure Boeing wants to keep it that way.

OK. So, you mean "United f.k.a. Continental" has been the only loyal US airline? One would think the so-called loyalty (which goes against business-101) should lie more with the "real" United, the one that traces back to "United Air Lines, a subsidiary of United Aircraft and Transport Corporation", the one that was in bed with Boeing; the same one that bought Airbus aircraft...


You seem to have a chip on your shoulder regarding United? Also I am confused as to what point you are trying to make with your UATC history lesson. Are you seriously mad at United for agreeing to lease A320s in 1992 (and later the A319s) simply because United and Boeing were a part of the same company until 1934, lol?

I understand the point TTailedTiger is making. United has operated every model of commercial aircraft produced by Boeing all the way back to the 247. With exception to their ancient 319/20s, and the second-hand ones coming on line soon, United hasn't acquired a new aircraft directly from Airbus in almost 30 years. Compare that to the large and ever-growing (as well as past) Airbus fleets at Delta (A310, 319/20/21, 330, 350, 220) and American (A300, 319/20/21, 330).

Seems logical United should want the biggest say in the NMA and feel the most justified in making that expectation known.


:shakehead:

Actually - UA took their last new build A320 around 2002-3. Still quite an old fleet given they won't be retiring any for 6 whole years...
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:13 am

vanguard737 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

The A350 was ordered before the merger. The A319 were acquired USED since they got them dirt cheap and could quickly replace 50 seat regional jets. United has hundreds of new 737's on order. United has ordered nothing from Airbus since the merger. I'm sure Boeing wants to keep it that way.

OK. So, you mean "United f.k.a. Continental" has been the only loyal US airline? One would think the so-called loyalty (which goes against business-101) should lie more with the "real" United, the one that traces back to "United Air Lines, a subsidiary of United Aircraft and Transport Corporation", the one that was in bed with Boeing; the same one that bought Airbus aircraft...


You seem to have a chip on your shoulder regarding United? Also I am confused as to what point you are trying to make with your UATC history lesson. Are you seriously mad at United for agreeing to lease A320s in 1992 (and later the A319s) simply because United and Boeing were a part of the same company until 1934, lol?

I understand the point TTailedTiger is making. United has operated every model of commercial aircraft produced by Boeing all the way back to the 247. With exception to their ancient 319/20s, and the second-hand ones coming on line soon, United hasn't acquired a new aircraft directly from Airbus in almost 30 years. Compare that to the large and ever-growing (as well as past) Airbus fleets at Delta (A310, 319/20/21, 330, 350, 220) and American (A300, 319/20/21, 330).

Seems logical United should want the biggest say in the NMA and feel the most justified in making that expectation known.

I don't have a chip on my shoulder regarding United. United will order the best airplane that fits their plans.

Saying that United should (or will) order the NMA "just because" they've been loyal to Boeing (which is incorrect, they ordered Douglas, McDonnell-Douglas and Airbus in the past) or because United and Boeing were once part of the same group is asinine and cannot be further removed from the truth.

United is a publicly traded company; as such, they have no loyalty to Boeing (or Airbus), but to its shareholders.
United will order the plane that's best suited for their current and future plans, and that's obtained under the best financial deals. I have no doubt they will order the NMA; but not for the reason you or TTailedTiger believe.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:32 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
There is an article out today with quotes from Ed Bastian about how Delta wants to be the launch customer for the NMA

Delta Air Lines CEO hopes Boeing decides to launch its New Mid-market Airplane soon because his airline must replace almost 200 older Boeing 767 and 757 jets slated to retire in the next decade.

"It represents a significant opportunity for Delta," Delta CEO Ed Bastian said in a recent, exclusive interview with the Puget Sound Business Journal.

Bastian reiterated that Delta, the nation's second-largest airline ranked by passengers carried, wants to be the launch customer for Boeing's potential new jet.

"We're in discussions at a very preliminary stage with Boeing and we've expressed our interest to the management team," Bastian said. "The ball really is in Boeing's court. They've heard us."


https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... yptr=yahoo

We have had threads about the NMA, but these comments are specifically about Delta potentially ordering 200 NMAs. This would represent a significant amount of their domestic fleet. What I find interesting is that it indicates that the current narrowbodies with almost 200 seats aren’t big enough. The A321 has virtually the same seat count as the 757, yet it looks like Delta doesn’t plan on replacing 757s with just A321s. In today’s consolidated airline industry it looks like airlines are finally wanting to size up to bigger planes.

What other reasons could be behind Delta’s interest in launching the NMA? Is ATL finally hitting the limit for growth? The number of regional jets flying through ATL is already pretty minimal.

At some point? Even Atlanta will run out of real estate if it hasn't already. So? The only other option would be to order new domestic airplanes to replace their smaller workhorse airplanes with a little larger workhorse airplane. Especially? if slots are going to become a premium as ATL is already pretty crowded. United and American are already on the "T" Concourse and there are no more NEW concourses (or OLD) that Delta doesn't control already,
 
bigjku
Posts: 1906
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:41 am

strfyr51 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
There is an article out today with quotes from Ed Bastian about how Delta wants to be the launch customer for the NMA

Delta Air Lines CEO hopes Boeing decides to launch its New Mid-market Airplane soon because his airline must replace almost 200 older Boeing 767 and 757 jets slated to retire in the next decade.

"It represents a significant opportunity for Delta," Delta CEO Ed Bastian said in a recent, exclusive interview with the Puget Sound Business Journal.

Bastian reiterated that Delta, the nation's second-largest airline ranked by passengers carried, wants to be the launch customer for Boeing's potential new jet.

"We're in discussions at a very preliminary stage with Boeing and we've expressed our interest to the management team," Bastian said. "The ball really is in Boeing's court. They've heard us."


https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... yptr=yahoo

We have had threads about the NMA, but these comments are specifically about Delta potentially ordering 200 NMAs. This would represent a significant amount of their domestic fleet. What I find interesting is that it indicates that the current narrowbodies with almost 200 seats aren’t big enough. The A321 has virtually the same seat count as the 757, yet it looks like Delta doesn’t plan on replacing 757s with just A321s. In today’s consolidated airline industry it looks like airlines are finally wanting to size up to bigger planes.

What other reasons could be behind Delta’s interest in launching the NMA? Is ATL finally hitting the limit for growth? The number of regional jets flying through ATL is already pretty minimal.

At some point? Even Atlanta will run out of real estate if it hasn't already. So? The only other option would be to order new domestic airplanes to replace their smaller workhorse airplanes with a little larger workhorse airplane. Especially? if slots are going to become a premium as ATL is already pretty crowded. United and American are already on the "T" Concourse and there are no more NEW concourses (or OLD) that Delta doesn't control already,


Count the flights simply between Atlanta and Deltas other hubs or very high frequency destinations. Then look at the hourly flights between its other hubs that don’t touch Atlanta. Anything you see running hourly or close to it is a candidate to be consolidated to NMA provided it’s fairly cost competitive. That’s a lot of flights and planes without consider trans Atlantic or Latin destinations. Every one you can consolidate is one more destination or connection to a smaller market you can bring through the hub without adding physical gates.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:59 am

JAAlbert wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Official launch is often conditional, by both sides, on a minimum number of orders and additional airlines buying the type. Even pricing is determined (at risk to airframers and engine vendor).


Doesn't the Boeing board of directors issue an "authority to offer" which allows Boeing to shop for potential orders? If the board believes orders are sufficient it then authorizes a launch?

That often comes after first conditional saves that naturally have a clause that both sides BODs approve.

The board has already approved engineering expenses that include building sub-assemblies. The authority to offer increases the rate of spending, but it is already substantial and approved by the BOD. Authority to offer is to unleash the full sales team. I've worked years on projects before an authority to offer and knew a couple of launch customers months before authority to offer. But personally, only a few launch customers m. Only certain airlines seem to be in this group: LH, DL/NW, once upon a time there was UA, ANA, JAL, and long ago BA).
Winter is coming.
 
texl1649
Posts: 1493
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:09 am

Airlines have always wanted to size up to bigger planes with the same seat economics or better. Especially planes they could fly for an eternity a la NWA/DL DC9/MD80 fleets. Note that those planes were bigger than their predecessors steadily over their 40 years of service too. A carbon frame NMA with long term defined support costs will of course appeal to the US3 which is why they have been sitting still for so long waiting on it, vs huge 737-10/A321 orders.
 
Jomar777
Posts: 573
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:36 am

x
 
Newbiepilot
Topic Author
Posts: 3642
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:54 pm

bigjku wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
There is an article out today with quotes from Ed Bastian about how Delta wants to be the launch customer for the NMA

Delta Air Lines CEO hopes Boeing decides to launch its New Mid-market Airplane soon because his airline must replace almost 200 older Boeing 767 and 757 jets slated to retire in the next decade.

"It represents a significant opportunity for Delta," Delta CEO Ed Bastian said in a recent, exclusive interview with the Puget Sound Business Journal.

Bastian reiterated that Delta, the nation's second-largest airline ranked by passengers carried, wants to be the launch customer for Boeing's potential new jet.

"We're in discussions at a very preliminary stage with Boeing and we've expressed our interest to the management team," Bastian said. "The ball really is in Boeing's court. They've heard us."


https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... yptr=yahoo

We have had threads about the NMA, but these comments are specifically about Delta potentially ordering 200 NMAs. This would represent a significant amount of their domestic fleet. What I find interesting is that it indicates that the current narrowbodies with almost 200 seats aren’t big enough. The A321 has virtually the same seat count as the 757, yet it looks like Delta doesn’t plan on replacing 757s with just A321s. In today’s consolidated airline industry it looks like airlines are finally wanting to size up to bigger planes.

What other reasons could be behind Delta’s interest in launching the NMA? Is ATL finally hitting the limit for growth? The number of regional jets flying through ATL is already pretty minimal.

At some point? Even Atlanta will run out of real estate if it hasn't already. So? The only other option would be to order new domestic airplanes to replace their smaller workhorse airplanes with a little larger workhorse airplane. Especially? if slots are going to become a premium as ATL is already pretty crowded. United and American are already on the "T" Concourse and there are no more NEW concourses (or OLD) that Delta doesn't control already,


Count the flights simply between Atlanta and Deltas other hubs or very high frequency destinations. Then look at the hourly flights between its other hubs that don’t touch Atlanta. Anything you see running hourly or close to it is a candidate to be consolidated to NMA provided it’s fairly cost competitive. That’s a lot of flights and planes without consider trans Atlantic or Latin destinations. Every one you can consolidate is one more destination or connection to a smaller market you can bring through the hub without adding physical gates.


The frequency on routes from Atlanta is astounding. Cities like Indianapolis, St Louis, Las Vegas, etc don’t need flights every 1-2 hours. Cities in Florida are even more frequent than that. ATL is continuously upgauging.

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