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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:06 pm
by tlecam
Newbiepilot wrote:
bigjku wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
At some point? Even Atlanta will run out of real estate if it hasn't already. So? The only other option would be to order new domestic airplanes to replace their smaller workhorse airplanes with a little larger workhorse airplane. Especially? if slots are going to become a premium as ATL is already pretty crowded. United and American are already on the "T" Concourse and there are no more NEW concourses (or OLD) that Delta doesn't control already,


Count the flights simply between Atlanta and Deltas other hubs or very high frequency destinations. Then look at the hourly flights between its other hubs that don’t touch Atlanta. Anything you see running hourly or close to it is a candidate to be consolidated to NMA provided it’s fairly cost competitive. That’s a lot of flights and planes without consider trans Atlantic or Latin destinations. Every one you can consolidate is one more destination or connection to a smaller market you can bring through the hub without adding physical gates.


The frequency on routes from Atlanta is astounding. Cities like Indianapolis, St Louis, Las Vegas, etc don’t need flights every 1-2 hours. Cities in Florida are even more frequent than that. ATL is continuously upgauging.


In some cases, they're already close to maxing out (without up-gauging to wide bodies) in cities where there are either gate constraints or other constraints.

For example, BOS and LGA to ATL are already running 321s (or 757s) hourly or close to it. Realistically, the market doesn't need more frequency, but demand isn't going to shrink in the coming years. I think that there are markets, mostly up and down the US east coast, where, short of some sort of real disruption (high speed rail? on-demand air travel?) the coming decades could look more like short haul Asia on wide bodies than the narrow body aircraft we've seen in the past few decades in the US.

The "loyalty" and "xyz airline will become all A or all B" conversations as they relate to aircraft acquisitions are nonsensical and the figments of the imaginations of people who proscribe their personal likes and dislikes on corporations making major capital expenditures on products.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:35 pm
by bigjku
tlecam wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
bigjku wrote:

Count the flights simply between Atlanta and Deltas other hubs or very high frequency destinations. Then look at the hourly flights between its other hubs that don’t touch Atlanta. Anything you see running hourly or close to it is a candidate to be consolidated to NMA provided it’s fairly cost competitive. That’s a lot of flights and planes without consider trans Atlantic or Latin destinations. Every one you can consolidate is one more destination or connection to a smaller market you can bring through the hub without adding physical gates.


The frequency on routes from Atlanta is astounding. Cities like Indianapolis, St Louis, Las Vegas, etc don’t need flights every 1-2 hours. Cities in Florida are even more frequent than that. ATL is continuously upgauging.


In some cases, they're already close to maxing out (without up-gauging to wide bodies) in cities where there are either gate constraints or other constraints.

For example, BOS and LGA to ATL are already running 321s (or 757s) hourly or close to it. Realistically, the market doesn't need more frequency, but demand isn't going to shrink in the coming years. I think that there are markets, mostly up and down the US east coast, where, short of some sort of real disruption (high speed rail? on-demand air travel?) the coming decades could look more like short haul Asia on wide bodies than the narrow body aircraft we've seen in the past few decades in the US.

The "loyalty" and "xyz airline will become all A or all B" conversations as they relate to aircraft acquisitions are nonsensical and the figments of the imaginations of people who proscribe their personal likes and dislikes on corporations making major capital expenditures on products.


It’s by far the cheapest way to increase passenger volume thru an airport. It’s the A380 solution but applied to the huge fat part of the market where 80% or more of travel occurs rather than the very small, relatively speaking, long range market.

NMA will happen. But if it’s a big success it will be because it provides a realistic upguage for the narrows on 2-4 hour routes. If you realistically want to move say 40% more bodies thru Atlanta 15 years from now this is the cheapest way to do it by far. The limits at airports are mostly gates and he number of arrivals and departures the runways can handle. It’s reletively cheaper to add more places to sit if you have to.

The problem with the A380’s concept as it relates to airport crowding is that at most airports widebody, long range flights are a small percentage of total flights. LHR being the big exception really. Replacing 2 777 with an A380 makes little difference if you are operating 2,500 flights or more a day and 80-90% are narrowbodies or RJ. You can’t fix capacity restrictions based on runways without attacking the area where the bulk of the takeoffs and landings are.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:19 pm
by klm617
This quote right here from the article says it all. Ed says give me the plane at my price or I'll go elsewhere. If Delta wanted to be the launch customer Mr. Bastian commit to ordering enough planes to move the project forward from the planning stages to production. If I were Boeing I'd tell Delta to get lost they have done alright without being a major Delta supplier for many years now other than the 737. Perhaps the new tariffs are making the pathway to Airbus a bit more difficult than it has been in the past. The ball is not in Boeing's court it's in Delta's court Boeing will sell more than enough of the NMA aircraft in the rest of the world not to even bat an eye at Ed's rather childish remarks.

"We're in discussions at a very preliminary stage with Boeing and we've expressed our interest to the management team," Bastian said. "The ball really is in Boeing's court. They've heard us."

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:24 pm
by WayexTDI
klm617 wrote:
This quote right here from the article says it all. Ed says give me the plane at my price or I'll go elsewhere.

You do understand that's how business and negotiations work, don't you?

When there is more than one supplier possible, any company will buy equipment at the price they are willing to pay, or they'll go see somewhere else.
Actually, any company will always buy equipment at the price they're willing to pay; if they are not willing to pay that price, they won't buy it. Simple as that...

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:01 pm
by klm617
WayexTDI wrote:
klm617 wrote:
This quote right here from the article says it all. Ed says give me the plane at my price or I'll go elsewhere.

You do understand that's how business and negotiations work, don't you?

When there is more than one supplier possible, any company will buy equipment at the price they are willing to pay, or they'll go see somewhere else.
Actually, any company will always buy equipment at the price they're willing to pay; if they are not willing to pay that price, they won't buy it. Simple as that...


Funny as a consumer in the market place I don't have that buying power to dictate to a supplier what I'm going to pay. Ed says all the time this is the price of my airfares if you don't like it fly somebody else. I hope Boeing responds in the same way to him as he and Delta have been no friends of Boeing.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:04 pm
by klm617
WayexTDI wrote:
klm617 wrote:
This quote right here from the article says it all. Ed says give me the plane at my price or I'll go elsewhere.

You do understand that's how business and negotiations work, don't you?

When there is more than one supplier possible, any company will buy equipment at the price they are willing to pay, or they'll go see somewhere else.
Actually, any company will always buy equipment at the price they're willing to pay; if they are not willing to pay that price, they won't buy it. Simple as that...


Further more what he appears to be saying is if we don't order from Boeing don't blame Delta blame Boeing because they weren't competitive enough.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:30 pm
by winginit
klm617 wrote:
Funny as a consumer in the market place I don't have that buying power to dictate to a supplier what I'm going to pay.


I think you'll find that you do, which you're about to prove with the second half of this very quote...

klm617 wrote:
Ed says all the time this is the price of my airfares if you don't like it fly somebody else.


And what might we call you choosing to fly someone else and the implications of that for both the supplier you choose to pay and the one you choose not to pay? ... buying power...

klm617 wrote:
I hope Boeing responds in the same way to him as he and Delta have been no friends of Boeing.


Reminder: Delta Air Lines operates one of the largest commercial Boeing fleets in the world.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:33 pm
by WayexTDI
klm617 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
klm617 wrote:
This quote right here from the article says it all. Ed says give me the plane at my price or I'll go elsewhere.

You do understand that's how business and negotiations work, don't you?

When there is more than one supplier possible, any company will buy equipment at the price they are willing to pay, or they'll go see somewhere else.
Actually, any company will always buy equipment at the price they're willing to pay; if they are not willing to pay that price, they won't buy it. Simple as that...


Funny as a consumer in the market place I don't have that buying power to dictate to a supplier what I'm going to pay. Ed says all the time this is the price of my airfares if you don't like it fly somebody else. I hope Boeing responds in the same way to him as he and Delta have been no friends of Boeing.

Did you read as I said "company", and not "customer"? Customer as "Joe Shmoe Lambda" who will spend $10 with a multinational supplier will not have the same buying power as "Company XYW" who will spend $1 billion with the same multinational supplier.

When you spend tons of money, you will be able to negotiate with your supplier in a much stronger way than if you only spend a handful of money. Again, that's Business-101.
Go spend a few millions a year with DL; you'll see if you won't be able to negotiate better fares.

klm617 wrote:
Further more what he appears to be saying is if we don't order from Boeing don't blame Delta blame Boeing because they weren't competitive enough.

If DL doesn't order from Boeing, who's to blame then? I'm sure you're going to say Airbus or Bombardier...

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:01 pm
by alfa164
winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Funny as a consumer in the market place I don't have that buying power to dictate to a supplier what I'm going to pay.

I think you'll find that you do, which you're about to prove with the second half of this very quote...
klm617 wrote:
Ed says all the time this is the price of my airfares if you don't like it fly somebody else.

And what might we call you choosing to fly someone else and the implications of that for both the supplier you choose to pay and the one you choose not to pay? ... buying power...
klm617 wrote:
I hope Boeing responds in the same way to him as he and Delta have been no friends of Boeing.

Reminder: Delta Air Lines operates one of the largest commercial Boeing fleets in the world.


Feeding a troll is seldom a successful strategy...

;)

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:05 pm
by Revelation
alfa164 wrote:
Feeding a troll is seldom a successful strategy...

;)

The troll energy is strong around here lately.

Fear of change does strange things to people.

;)

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:09 pm
by RickNRoll
Channex757 wrote:
Has it occurred to you that they might just have a need for it? The A339 might be too big for many routes and there is also freight to be carried in an increasingly online shopping world.

DL is big enough to run two fleets in that medium range space enabling right-sizing on routes with healthy traffic.


NMA is not optimised for freight.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:31 pm
by DarkKnight5
Revelation wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Feeding a troll is seldom a successful strategy...

;)

The troll energy is strong around here lately.

Fear of change does strange things to people.

;)

In the words of the immortal Garth Algar: “We fear change. *hammers robotic hand until it submits*”

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:43 pm
by winginit
DarkKnight5 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Feeding a troll is seldom a successful strategy...

;)

The troll energy is strong around here lately.

Fear of change does strange things to people.

;)

In the words of the immortal Garth Algar: “We fear change. *hammers robotic hand until it submits*”


Oh trust me gents it's strictly a hobby at this point.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:13 pm
by flyingclrs727
Boeing should consider designing the NMA so that it could later be fitted with a smaller wing and lighter landing gear to serve as a 737 Max replacement. With twin aisles such a plane would be able to execute quick turnarounds on the ground.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:53 am
by Channex757
RickNRoll wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
Has it occurred to you that they might just have a need for it? The A339 might be too big for many routes and there is also freight to be carried in an increasingly online shopping world.

DL is big enough to run two fleets in that medium range space enabling right-sizing on routes with healthy traffic.


NMA is not optimised for freight.

NMA is not optimised for anything. It isn't even at a design freeze yet

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:40 am
by lightsaber
Channex757 wrote:
RickNRoll wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
Has it occurred to you that they might just have a need for it? The A339 might be too big for many routes and there is also freight to be carried in an increasingly online shopping world.

DL is big enough to run two fleets in that medium range space enabling right-sizing on routes with healthy traffic.


NMA is not optimised for freight.

NMA is not optimised for anything. It isn't even at a design freeze yet

A design is optimized long before the freeze. The cross section has been selected. To save cost per flight, the LD3s were abandoned. Cargo volume was sacrificed to reduce weight and drag. One needs 9-across to optimize for cargo.

Lightsaber

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:34 pm
by fcogafa

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:27 pm
by jagraham
RickNRoll wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
Has it occurred to you that they might just have a need for it? The A339 might be too big for many routes and there is also freight to be carried in an increasingly online shopping world.

DL is big enough to run two fleets in that medium range space enabling right-sizing on routes with healthy traffic.


NMA is not optimised for freight.


Yet. Asian carriers might make NMA less oval . . .

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:49 pm
by IslandRob
fcogafa wrote:


Thanks for link. Bastian's comments are reportedly from today (March 5th). Salient language:

"We are still very interested in it," he tells investors at the JP Morgan Aviation,
Transportation & Industrials Conference on the aircraft today. "Boeing hasn't decided
if it's going to launch that aircraft – we hope they will."

Delta has upwards of 200 aircraft that it could replace with the NMA, says Bastian citing
both its Boeing 757 and 767 fleets.


-ir

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:22 pm
by seabosdca
Nothing new in that message, but reading between the lines it seems clear that Bastian thinks NMA would give Delta a competitive advantage given its network. Delta management hasn't publicly expressed this much interest in an airplane since the A330neo. And he's probably right! Both Delta's TATL and domestic networks would have a lot of ways to use an as-advertised NMA.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:26 pm
by lightsaber
IslandRob wrote:
fcogafa wrote:


Thanks for link. Bastian's comments are reportedly from today (March 5th). Salient language:

"We are still very interested in it," he tells investors at the JP Morgan Aviation,
Transportation & Industrials Conference on the aircraft today. "Boeing hasn't decided
if it's going to launch that aircraft – we hope they will."

Delta has upwards of 200 aircraft that it could replace with the NMA, says Bastian citing
both its Boeing 757 and 767 fleets.


-ir

Wow, that is clearly an endorsement (for the right price).

Lightsaber

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:34 pm
by dc10lover
I can see the "757NMA" fly East Coast - Europe Routes just like the 757 is currently flying the East Coast - Europe Routes today.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:30 pm
by JayinKitsap
4,500 nm from HNL, SEA, MSP, DTW, or ATL probably covers over half DL's widebody market.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:29 am
by blacksoviet
Will the 797 have enough range to fly transpacific routes out of SEA?

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:43 am
by deltadawg
Not sure what the big deal is here. Delta announced a year ago or more their desire to be the launch customer for a Boeing NMA so in that case it is not new.

However, I think this is an indication that an official announcement is forthcoming within the next six months or so. Delta wish to be at the forefront for such an aircraft is also not a big surprise seeing their 757 proclivity and population. The current 321's in DL's fleet are NOT a 757 replacement in its broader capabilities nor is it close to being an equal for the 762/3's still in the fleet. Delta NEEDS the NMA and I believe this is why they are out front on this. The 321 is not enough but and the 339 and even the possible 338 is too much for many routes DL runs such as RDU-CDG.

This situation has been coming for some time. Will be nice to see some new Boeings in DL livery. Hopefully the 737 replacement won't be far behind either!

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:26 am
by JayinKitsap
Anyone know where to get the number of gates at an airport by design code. For example I found that ATL
has 192 gates comprised of 152 domestic and 40 international gates.
As both the 757 and 767 are Code D and DL had so many of those there might be 40 gates there. Same with SEA, MSP, and DTW. If the NMA fits in the D, it would be basically a gate being used by a NB today. The MD-11, A300, 757, and 767 all were D, but the 330, 350, 744, 788 and 777 all are E .

This could make a big difference at airports DL operates out of.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:57 am
by Jomar777
Delta has one of the biggest Boeing Fleets available but, crucially, has only 10 remaining B739s on order and nothing else. Plans are to replace their B752s with A321s and quite a good number of their B767s with A339s.
Controversially (let's not go back to this too much...) it ordered the A220 (CS300) causing an uproar between not only Boeing but also with the Brazilian and US Trade Commissions (the story is well known - let's not get to the merits of this here...).
I would say that, unless something substantial changes, their chances to launch the B797 are zilch. But they might even order them in future if they cannot get anything better from Airbus.
The most likely reason for these comments is that Ed is playing Airbus for a good deal on their A321LR (or XLR). But is does not mean he might (just might...) order some B797s when they are available - but never as a launch customer.

Added to this, some people might think dumb of me (and I would certainly accept it...), Airbus's proposal to have a TATL or Long Range Single Aisle aircraft rather than Boeing's proposal of another (albeit short) Twin Aisle, is much more appealing (less cabin crew - better operationality - see the B757 example), is way much more appealing. It would be better if Boeing either did stretch further (I am not sure if it is possible anyway..) the B737 or designed some sort of B787-7.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:35 pm
by Revelation
deltadawg wrote:
Not sure what the big deal is here.

I would say it is being treated as a big deal here because this reiteration of support comes after the Leeham report saying odds are 65-35, 60-40, or 50-50 (depending on which source you believe) that NMA will be launched.

In essence, to those tuned in to the give and take of this situation, this comes across as the DL CEO almost pleading for a NMA launch, in the face of only lukewarm odds for getting one.

We live in interesting times.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:30 pm
by frmrCapCadet
While there have been assumptions that the NMA and then the NSA will share common ratings for FOs, how similar will they be to the 787 and 777X? Airbus has been commended, rightly as I understand it, for great commonality throughout the fleet.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:45 pm
by bigjku
frmrCapCadet wrote:
While there have been assumptions that the NMA and then the NSA will share common ratings for FOs, how similar will they be to the 787 and 777X? Airbus has been commended, rightly as I understand it, for great commonality throughout the fleet.


That will be the giveaway to intentions really. If it shares a common rating with 787/777 it’s just another airplane. If they take the time to put in new avionics, particularly ones that potentially support a one man cockpit, then it’s a foundation for something new.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:08 pm
by DL757NYC
Newbiepilot wrote:
There is an article out today with quotes from Ed Bastian about how Delta wants to be the launch customer for the NMA

Delta Air Lines CEO hopes Boeing decides to launch its New Mid-market Airplane soon because his airline must replace almost 200 older Boeing 767 and 757 jets slated to retire in the next decade.

"It represents a significant opportunity for Delta," Delta CEO Ed Bastian said in a recent, exclusive interview with the Puget Sound Business Journal.

Bastian reiterated that Delta, the nation's second-largest airline ranked by passengers carried, wants to be the launch customer for Boeing's potential new jet.

"We're in discussions at a very preliminary stage with Boeing and we've expressed our interest to the management team," Bastian said. "The ball really is in Boeing's court. They've heard us."


https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... yptr=yahoo

We have had threads about the NMA, but these comments are specifically about Delta potentially ordering 200 NMAs. This would represent a significant amount of their domestic fleet. What I find interesting is that it indicates that the current narrowbodies with almost 200 seats aren’t big enough. The A321 has virtually the same seat count as the 757, yet it looks like Delta doesn’t plan on replacing 757s with just A321s. In today’s consolidated airline industry it looks like airlines are finally wanting to size up to bigger planes.

What other reasons could be behind Delta’s interest in launching the NMA? Is ATL finally hitting the limit for growth? The number of regional jets flying through ATL is already pretty minimal.



It makes sense they are the largest operator of the aircraft the 797 would be designed to replace. They have a large number of 757/767 in their fleet. And they MUST be replaced during the next decade. They have spent money to maintain and upgrade the fleet to get as much life as they can out of the fleet. There is nothing out there to replace what they have.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:29 pm
by MIflyer12
DL757NYC wrote:
They have a large number of 757/767 in their fleet. And they MUST be replaced during the next decade. They have spent money to maintain and upgrade the fleet to get as much life as they can out of the fleet. There is nothing out there to replace what they have.


That's a little dramatic. If 339s can replace 763s (and that's the widebody plan for the next five years - there's no other widebody scheduled for delivery in that window) then surely 787-8s or 9s can replace 763s and 764s. 321LRs could do 90% of the missions where DL has 752s today. So could Max 10s. DL has only 18 752s in the lie-flat config that go TATL - and those routinely see deployments on domestic routes every day, too. It's not like their range is needed 100% of the time. This isn't a 200-aircraft problem -- it's a 25-50 aircraft problem -- where 321LRs don't have the range and a few 763 routes where a 339/788 is too big.

NMA might hit the sweet spot for Delta - but DL isn't going to buy 1,500 of them to justify development. Could Boeing launch NMA with 75 orders each from DL/AA/UA? (or BA, LH, JL?) That may be an attainable goal.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:30 pm
by seahawk
I would say if DL (as a large 767 operator) would not be interested, the 797 would be dead.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:44 pm
by jeffrey0032j
frmrCapCadet wrote:
While there have been assumptions that the NMA and then the NSA will share common ratings for FOs, how similar will they be to the 787 and 777X? Airbus has been commended, rightly as I understand it, for great commonality throughout the fleet.

There has been talk that Boeing will move towards a common/similar type ratings in the future. If this is the case, they have already started the first step with the 787 sharing the same type rating as the 777 in many countries.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:57 pm
by planecane
frmrCapCadet wrote:
While there have been assumptions that the NMA and then the NSA will share common ratings for FOs, how similar will they be to the 787 and 777X? Airbus has been commended, rightly as I understand it, for great commonality throughout the fleet.

I'm sure they will continue the Airbus-like philosophy of making future modes as similar to the 777/787 as possible while still incorporating the latest technology.

Boeing pioneered the common type rating with the 757/767. The problem was they were designed a little too soon and without FBW. By the time the 777 was designed, making it common with the 757/767 would have made it antiquated before it was built.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:22 pm
by B764er
The 97 must have commonality with the 87 in the cockpit and save the airlines training time. I'm sure Boeing is thinking about that. I can almost bet that that's what they will do when it comes to the front office.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:01 pm
by par13del
So are more airlines moving up or moving down, would there be more carriers with 737's looking to move up versus airlines with 787's looking to move down into the lower end with a smaller a/c?
It has been stated that the US3 are placing less importance on cargo versus the Asian carriers, so a type rating close to the 787 / 777XX would be fine, but those moving up the ladder may prefer a rating closer to the 737, now the legacy of the 737 may bite a bit.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:18 pm
by bigjku
B764er wrote:
The 97 must have commonality with the 87 in the cockpit and save the airlines training time. I'm sure Boeing is thinking about that. I can almost bet that that's what they will do when it comes to the front office.


One of the most oversold things on A-net.

Far more important to pioneer any major changes is basic architecture you want to make for a 737 replacement here than it is to be common with the 787. If you can do both fine, but while it would be nice it’s not that critical.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:44 pm
by flyabr
Excuse me if this has been mentioned before, but has Boeing said anything about folding wingtips on the 797??

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:46 pm
by JayinKitsap
There will be commonality between the NMA and NSA, probably very close to the 777 & 787 also. The software and control architecture will be quite similar to the 787, a huge portion of the 787 certification was the system architecture.

DL has a real need for Code D gate airplanes, all of their new WB's on order are Code E. Currently they have 200 planes to be replaced. Many can be done with an A321 which is quite efficient. But using a A330 that has an OEW of 60t compared to a 48.5t A321 means 12 tons extra flown on every cycle.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:18 pm
by gsg013
Newbiepilot wrote:
bigjku wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
At some point? Even Atlanta will run out of real estate if it hasn't already. So? The only other option would be to order new domestic airplanes to replace their smaller workhorse airplanes with a little larger workhorse airplane. Especially? if slots are going to become a premium as ATL is already pretty crowded. United and American are already on the "T" Concourse and there are no more NEW concourses (or OLD) that Delta doesn't control already,


Count the flights simply between Atlanta and Deltas other hubs or very high frequency destinations. Then look at the hourly flights between its other hubs that don’t touch Atlanta. Anything you see running hourly or close to it is a candidate to be consolidated to NMA provided it’s fairly cost competitive. That’s a lot of flights and planes without consider trans Atlantic or Latin destinations. Every one you can consolidate is one more destination or connection to a smaller market you can bring through the hub without adding physical gates.


The frequency on routes from Atlanta is astounding. Cities like Indianapolis, St Louis, Las Vegas, etc don’t need flights every 1-2 hours. Cities in Florida are even more frequent than that. ATL is continuously upgauging.


You are correct on a day like today from ATL-BNA we have 13 departures on DL mix is 6 MD-88 4 MD-90 2x 737-900ER (Total of 1886 seats and 12 flights essentially hourly).. ON NW we have 5x 737-700 (approx 700 seats/day). It is interesting that DL has put the MD-90's back on this route for mos the winter there were many 757-200's and some A321 flights mixed in.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:56 pm
by flyingclrs727
RickNRoll wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
Has it occurred to you that they might just have a need for it? The A339 might be too big for many routes and there is also freight to be carried in an increasingly online shopping world.

DL is big enough to run two fleets in that medium range space enabling right-sizing on routes with healthy traffic.


NMA is not optimised for freight.


Because airlines wanted an aircraft that was optimized for passengers.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:56 am
by Channex757
Why can't you lot accept that it is, so far, a paper plane? If the airlines want freight capacity then freight capacity will be added in. Palletised, bulk or containers.

The days of "build it and they will come" just got a fatal wound in case you were unable to take your eyes off Boeing for a moment. Airlines cannot afford to leave money on the table so stop all this crap about passenger optimisation. It will be optimised for however the airlines can use it to make the most money

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:01 am
by rotating14
https://www.aerotime.aero/aerotime.team ... g-customer

“We'll see where that goes,” said Bastian. “We are in discussions at a very preliminary phase with Boeing on it, and we'll find out. Hopefully they'll decide to go”.


More fat to chew on.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:46 am
by Revelation
Channex757 wrote:
Why can't you lot accept that it is, so far, a paper plane? If the airlines want freight capacity then freight capacity will be added in. Palletised, bulk or containers.

The days of "build it and they will come" just got a fatal wound in case you were unable to take your eyes off Boeing for a moment. Airlines cannot afford to leave money on the table so stop all this crap about passenger optimisation. It will be optimised for however the airlines can use it to make the most money

From what we can tell from the various media and insider leaks, the customer input has already been gathered, the major characteristics are already determined, and ~1000 engineers are working on more detailed iterations. We've already had Jon Ostrower's leaks of the general payload-range and early renderings months ago, and we have Randy T's statements that they are prioritizing passengers over freight, and we have customers telling us that it's an ovoid shortly after being briefed by Boeing. It's paper in the sense that the business side of the company has not convinced itself that it can make the kind of profit margin they feel they need to make so they can't offer it to customers.

So, yeah, it's paper, but we're somewhere past the point where they decide the general characteristics, and these were not decided in the "build it they shall come" fashion, it was decided after many meetings with many airlines.

In fact, you may want to take notice of the title of this thread: Ed Bastian knows enough about the NMA to tell all and sunder that he wants DL to be a NMA launch customer.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:06 am
by Channex757
Revelation wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
Why can't you lot accept that it is, so far, a paper plane? If the airlines want freight capacity then freight capacity will be added in. Palletised, bulk or containers.

The days of "build it and they will come" just got a fatal wound in case you were unable to take your eyes off Boeing for a moment. Airlines cannot afford to leave money on the table so stop all this crap about passenger optimisation. It will be optimised for however the airlines can use it to make the most money

From what we can tell from the various media and insider leaks, the customer input has already been gathered, the major characteristics are already determined, and ~1000 engineers are working on more detailed iterations. We've already had Jon Ostrower's leaks of the general payload-range and early renderings months ago, and we have Randy T's statements that they are prioritizing passengers over freight, and we have customers telling us that it's an ovoid shortly after being briefed by Boeing. It's paper in the sense that the business side of the company has not convinced itself that it can make the kind of profit margin they feel they need to make so they can't offer it to customers.

So, yeah, it's paper, but we're somewhere past the point where they decide the general characteristics, and these were not decided in the "build it they shall come" fashion, it was decided after many meetings with many airlines.

In fact, you may want to take notice of the title of this thread: Ed Bastian knows enough about the NMA to tell all and sunder that he wants DL to be a NMA launch customer.

There are far too many people here posting rumour and speculation as fact, and it is tiring.

Until the day comes when Boeing commits to cutting metal, nothing is sacred. If someone like Qatar comes along with a cheque and an order for 200 but wants certain guarantees like a freight hauling ability, do you really think Boeing will turn them away? If so I have a bridge in London I'd like to sell to you. Cargo is a vital profit centre these days as the dedicated cargo fleets get sent to the desert.

Even at this late stage, if the Boeing board get a sniff of a decent order they will send instructions to the engineers to evaluate changes. Boeing is the leader in the widebody sector at the moment. Arrogance in design isn't the way to reinforce that mastery of the sector. Especially on a project where the business case is not yet formally closed and the Authority To Offer handed down.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:22 am
by LawAndOrder
Jomar777 wrote:
Delta has one of the biggest Boeing Fleets available but, crucially, has only 10 remaining B739s on order and nothing else. Plans are to replace their B752s with A321s and quite a good number of their B767s with A339s.
Controversially (let's not go back to this too much...) it ordered the A220 (CS300) causing an uproar between not only Boeing but also with the Brazilian and US Trade Commissions (the story is well known - let's not get to the merits of this here...).
I would say that, unless something substantial changes, their chances to launch the B797 are zilch. But they might even order them in future if they cannot get anything better from Airbus.
The most likely reason for these comments is that Ed is playing Airbus for a good deal on their A321LR (or XLR). But is does not mean he might (just might...) order some B797s when they are available - but never as a launch customer.

Added to this, some people might think dumb of me (and I would certainly accept it...), Airbus's proposal to have a TATL or Long Range Single Aisle aircraft rather than Boeing's proposal of another (albeit short) Twin Aisle, is much more appealing (less cabin crew - better operationality - see the B757 example), is way much more appealing. It would be better if Boeing either did stretch further (I am not sure if it is possible anyway..) the B737 or designed some sort of B787-7.


321 is not their 757 replacement -where did you get that. Retirements haven’t been set but they most likely don’t even start until after majority of the deliveries conclude. It’s obvious Delta strategy is to upgauge so why replace with something smaller. The 339 will replace some 767 but not all of their routes can handle a 339. If you think the 757 was so good for translantic why aren’t more deployed to international routes? Majority of the 757s are utilized in transcons (albeit it has changed a bit now between lax and jfk).

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:28 am
by DarkKnight5
Channex757 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
Why can't you lot accept that it is, so far, a paper plane? If the airlines want freight capacity then freight capacity will be added in. Palletised, bulk or containers.

The days of "build it and they will come" just got a fatal wound in case you were unable to take your eyes off Boeing for a moment. Airlines cannot afford to leave money on the table so stop all this crap about passenger optimisation. It will be optimised for however the airlines can use it to make the most money

From what we can tell from the various media and insider leaks, the customer input has already been gathered, the major characteristics are already determined, and ~1000 engineers are working on more detailed iterations. We've already had Jon Ostrower's leaks of the general payload-range and early renderings months ago, and we have Randy T's statements that they are prioritizing passengers over freight, and we have customers telling us that it's an ovoid shortly after being briefed by Boeing. It's paper in the sense that the business side of the company has not convinced itself that it can make the kind of profit margin they feel they need to make so they can't offer it to customers.

So, yeah, it's paper, but we're somewhere past the point where they decide the general characteristics, and these were not decided in the "build it they shall come" fashion, it was decided after many meetings with many airlines.

In fact, you may want to take notice of the title of this thread: Ed Bastian knows enough about the NMA to tell all and sunder that he wants DL to be a NMA launch customer.

There are far too many people here posting rumour and speculation as fact, and it is tiring.

Until the day comes when Boeing commits to cutting metal, nothing is sacred. If someone like Qatar comes along with a cheque and an order for 200 but wants certain guarantees like a freight hauling ability, do you really think Boeing will turn them away? If so I have a bridge in London I'd like to sell to you. Cargo is a vital profit centre these days as the dedicated cargo fleets get sent to the desert.

Even at this late stage, if the Boeing board get a sniff of a decent order they will send instructions to the engineers to evaluate changes. Boeing is the leader in the widebody sector at the moment. Arrogance in design isn't the way to reinforce that mastery of the sector. Especially on a project where the business case is not yet formally closed and the Authority To Offer handed down.

And here I thought freight was the only reason 747F, 767, and 777F were still in production. Turns out they’re all being sent to the desert. Learn something new every day on Anet.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:13 am
by Channex757
DarkKnight5 wrote:
And here I thought freight was the only reason 747F, 767, and 777F were still in production. Turns out they’re all being sent to the desert. Learn something new every day on Anet.


And who is buying them? Not the big passenger airlines (except for ANA and LH)

Northwest? Fleet withdrawn.
American? Long gone
British Airways? Likewise.
United? Ancient history.

All of them (NW now being DL) had dedicated freighters and now sell belly cargo exclusively. Air Bridge Cargo and Volga-Dneipr are not likely to be interested in the plane. FedEx and UPS? Hardly.

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:32 am
by strfyr51
nomorerjs wrote:
DL and UA are begging for this. Others as well. A big market and Boeing is sitting in there ass for years. If Boeing doesn’t announce this year, Boeing can’t complain when DL, FI, and UA give Airbus 300 orders.


Maybe Delta, But I seriously doubt United will go that way.