grbauc
Posts: 1426
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:37 am

Revelation wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Feeding a troll is seldom a successful strategy...

;)

The troll energy is strong around here lately.

Fear of change does strange things to people.

;)


So true,
This tread is eye opening. I miss Comm and others that are no longer here keeping some sort of balance. I like Electric Cars and I love ICE cars too and the love hate towards each is crazy. I know have this BvA CRUDE So bad here now that im not spending they time I use to. There is not much learning anymore.

I get it the 797 has been a long time in the planning and we have nothing to talk about but dam this tread and people crazy notions Wow...
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:52 am

klm617 wrote:
f I were Boeing I'd tell Delta to get lost they have done alright without being a major Delta supplier for many years now other than the 737. Perhaps the new tariffs are making the pathway to Airbus a bit more difficult than it has been in the past. The ball is not in Boeing's court it's in Delta's court Boeing will sell more than enough of the NMA aircraft in the rest of the world not to even bat an eye at Ed's rather childish remarks.


Good thing for both that you don't work for them.

Boeing telling a longtime customer airline to "get lost" is the reason Airbus is a player today at all. More than any other early order, it was the UA A320 order that put Airbus on the worldwide map. Boeing was so arrogant that it thought it could offer an inferior deal on an inferior airplane (the 737-400) and still make a paycheck. Boeing engineering and sales have both had their ups and downs since then, but they certainly haven't been dumb enough to make that mistake again.

And if Delta actually acted toward Boeing in the way you are accusing them of doing, it would be financial suicide. In an era when there is a duopoly of large-airliner OEMs (and, let's be honest, there is no chance of that changing in any segment above the 738/A320 in the foreseeable future), airlines have to have a credible threat on the table with each OEM to order from the other. No airline is going to align itself with one OEM so deeply that the OEM can take its foot off the gas on pricing.

Fortunately, in the real world we have something very different from the picture you're portraying. Delta is an operator of over 500 Boeing aircraft, constituting the majority of the Delta fleet, and a customer of critical importance to any OEM. Delta's CEO is telling us in the plainest possible language that he really wants a proposed new Boeing aircraft if the price is right. Boeing will do their best to get there, and Delta will follow through if they do. The last time Delta management acted like this about an aircraft, that aircraft was the A330neo and the result was 35 orders.
 
Jomar777
Posts: 369
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:43 am

LawAndOrder wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
Delta has one of the biggest Boeing Fleets available but, crucially, has only 10 remaining B739s on order and nothing else. Plans are to replace their B752s with A321s and quite a good number of their B767s with A339s.
Controversially (let's not go back to this too much...) it ordered the A220 (CS300) causing an uproar between not only Boeing but also with the Brazilian and US Trade Commissions (the story is well known - let's not get to the merits of this here...).
I would say that, unless something substantial changes, their chances to launch the B797 are zilch. But they might even order them in future if they cannot get anything better from Airbus.
The most likely reason for these comments is that Ed is playing Airbus for a good deal on their A321LR (or XLR). But is does not mean he might (just might...) order some B797s when they are available - but never as a launch customer.

Added to this, some people might think dumb of me (and I would certainly accept it...), Airbus's proposal to have a TATL or Long Range Single Aisle aircraft rather than Boeing's proposal of another (albeit short) Twin Aisle, is much more appealing (less cabin crew - better operationality - see the B757 example), is way much more appealing. It would be better if Boeing either did stretch further (I am not sure if it is possible anyway..) the B737 or designed some sort of B787-7.


321 is not their 757 replacement -where did you get that. Retirements haven’t been set but they most likely don’t even start until after majority of the deliveries conclude. It’s obvious Delta strategy is to upgauge so why replace with something smaller. The 339 will replace some 767 but not all of their routes can handle a 339. If you think the 757 was so good for translantic why aren’t more deployed to international routes? Majority of the 757s are utilized in transcons (albeit it has changed a bit now between lax and jfk).


Valid points form you.
But, if the A321 in some sort of stretch or design (maybe as a, let's say, A322) is not the answer for the B757, why does then Airbus does not counter Boeing's NMA and come with their own short Twin Aisle? Although going initially on different ways on the strategy which ultimately delivered the A3XX (now A380), Airbus still countered Boeing's B787 with the A350 - they do not completely overlap but still somehow directly compete.

In the US, you are right, the B757 was mainly used on Transcon Routes but you still had (and actually have) several of them crossing the Atlantic on routes to Europe. Other European Operators also used the B757 in similar ways. Some Charters in Europe still keep them even now (although in Europe we do tend to renew fleets quicker than in the US - with some exceptions...).

I still believe that there's a market for a single aisle TATL/Transcon aircraft. Like many, I just do not know if it is big enough. Airbus might think it is. Boeing seems to feel otherwise.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1350
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:57 am

seabosdca wrote:
klm617 wrote:
f I were Boeing I'd tell Delta to get lost they have done alright without being a major Delta supplier for many years now other than the 737. Perhaps the new tariffs are making the pathway to Airbus a bit more difficult than it has been in the past. The ball is not in Boeing's court it's in Delta's court Boeing will sell more than enough of the NMA aircraft in the rest of the world not to even bat an eye at Ed's rather childish remarks.


Good thing for both that you don't work for them.

Boeing telling a longtime customer airline to "get lost" is the reason Airbus is a player today at all. More than any other early order, it was the UA A320 order that put Airbus on the worldwide map. Boeing was so arrogant that it thought it could offer an inferior deal on an inferior airplane (the 737-400) and still make a paycheck. Boeing engineering and sales have both had their ups and downs since then, but they certainly haven't been dumb enough to make that mistake again.

And if Delta actually acted toward Boeing in the way you are accusing them of doing, it would be financial suicide. In an era when there is a duopoly of large-airliner OEMs (and, let's be honest, there is no chance of that changing in any segment above the 738/A320 in the foreseeable future), airlines have to have a credible threat on the table with each OEM to order from the other. No airline is going to align itself with one OEM so deeply that the OEM can take its foot off the gas on pricing.

Fortunately, in the real world we have something very different from the picture you're portraying. Delta is an operator of over 500 Boeing aircraft, constituting the majority of the Delta fleet, and a customer of critical importance to any OEM. Delta's CEO is telling us in the plainest possible language that he really wants a proposed new Boeing aircraft if the price is right. Boeing will do their best to get there, and Delta will follow through if they do. The last time Delta management acted like this about an aircraft, that aircraft was the A330neo and the result was 35 orders.


Just my personal opinion but I think it will require more than 35 orders to get Boeing interested in allowing Delta to be the launch customer. I think at least 50 firm orders and 50 options.
 
JQ321
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:40 am

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:26 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
klm617 wrote:
f I were Boeing I'd tell Delta to get lost they have done alright without being a major Delta supplier for many years now other than the 737. Perhaps the new tariffs are making the pathway to Airbus a bit more difficult than it has been in the past. The ball is not in Boeing's court it's in Delta's court Boeing will sell more than enough of the NMA aircraft in the rest of the world not to even bat an eye at Ed's rather childish remarks.


Good thing for both that you don't work for them.

Boeing telling a longtime customer airline to "get lost" is the reason Airbus is a player today at all. More than any other early order, it was the UA A320 order that put Airbus on the worldwide map. Boeing was so arrogant that it thought it could offer an inferior deal on an inferior airplane (the 737-400) and still make a paycheck. Boeing engineering and sales have both had their ups and downs since then, but they certainly haven't been dumb enough to make that mistake again.

And if Delta actually acted toward Boeing in the way you are accusing them of doing, it would be financial suicide. In an era when there is a duopoly of large-airliner OEMs (and, let's be honest, there is no chance of that changing in any segment above the 738/A320 in the foreseeable future), airlines have to have a credible threat on the table with each OEM to order from the other. No airline is going to align itself with one OEM so deeply that the OEM can take its foot off the gas on pricing.

Fortunately, in the real world we have something very different from the picture you're portraying. Delta is an operator of over 500 Boeing aircraft, constituting the majority of the Delta fleet, and a customer of critical importance to any OEM. Delta's CEO is telling us in the plainest possible language that he really wants a proposed new Boeing aircraft if the price is right. Boeing will do their best to get there, and Delta will follow through if they do. The last time Delta management acted like this about an aircraft, that aircraft was the A330neo and the result was 35 orders.


Just my personal opinion but I think it will require more than 35 orders to get Boeing interested in allowing Delta to be the launch customer. I think at least 50 firm orders and 50 options.

Why would Boeing allow a company which hurt them be a launch customer. There are much better airlines for that role.
 
YouGeeElWhy
Posts: 411
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:42 pm

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:48 am

JQ321 wrote:
Why would Boeing allow a company which hurt them be a launch customer. There are much better airlines for that role.
because Boeing is in the business of making money and not holding grade school grudges.
 
brindabella
Posts: 572
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:38 am

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:01 pm

YouGeeElWhy wrote:
JQ321 wrote:
Why would Boeing allow a company which hurt them be a launch customer. There are much better airlines for that role.
because Boeing is in the business of making money and not holding grade school grudges.


All true, but one can envisage something like the following conversation:

BA: "We believe that you want to be a launch customer for 100+100 797?"

DL: "Yep".

BA: "Great! just a few additional clauses to our standard offer document and we are good to go!".

DL: "Additional clauses? DL doesn't do that."

BA: "But that's what Management wants".

DL: "Take it or leave it."


Hurt feelings are irrelevant. :D

DL is a super-heavyweight.
When it comes right down to it, DL will demand a deal better than anybody else is brave enough to contemplate.

And probably get it.

cheers

(** EG I recall a post here or Flightglobal that DL got their A350s for $105 million. (BA were unwilling to bid the 787 under $120 million at the time).
And I think it is very very clear that the CS units were very, very cheap. Bad luck for Canadian /Quebec taxpayers; good luck for DL!)
Billy
 
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DL747400
Posts: 687
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Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:12 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
4,500 nm from HNL, SEA, MSP, DTW, or ATL probably covers over half DL's widebody market.


Don't forget JFK, SLC and BOS, as well as focus cities like RDU, IND, AUS and a number of other U.S. cities from which DL offers nonstop service to AMS, CDG, LHR, or another European destination.

Add those in and the coverage moves from ~50% to more like 75-80%.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1522
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:24 pm

seabosdca wrote:
In an era when there is a duopoly of large-airliner OEMs (and, let's be honest, there is no chance of that changing in any segment above the 738/A320 in the foreseeable future), airlines have to have a credible threat on the table with each OEM to order from the other. No airline is going to align itself with one OEM so deeply that the OEM can take its foot off the gas on pricing.
While I agree with the overall point that DL will order whatever aircraft best suits their needs for the best price, I can't agree with this part. Am I to believe that Boeing is screwing over airlines like FR and WN on pricing? Plus, DL is a large enough airline that they can get good pricing no matter what they ordered in the past.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2299
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:14 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
I can't agree with this part. Am I to believe that Boeing is screwing over airlines like FR and WN on pricing?


Well, interesting you mention Ryanair.

Airbus stopped quoting on Ryanair tenders - and made an extremely public proclamation that they were not responding to RFPs. They seen it as a waste of time.
https://www.ft.com/content/eb8fc516-f2e ... 00779fd2ac
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/air ... s-1.692988 [same as above only no subscription needed]

I have no doubt whatsoever, that this influenced Boeing's pricing on the 2009 deal that then resulted in MOL whinging.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... s-aircraft
 
planecane
Posts: 1087
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:27 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
LawAndOrder wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
Delta has one of the biggest Boeing Fleets available but, crucially, has only 10 remaining B739s on order and nothing else. Plans are to replace their B752s with A321s and quite a good number of their B767s with A339s.
Controversially (let's not go back to this too much...) it ordered the A220 (CS300) causing an uproar between not only Boeing but also with the Brazilian and US Trade Commissions (the story is well known - let's not get to the merits of this here...).
I would say that, unless something substantial changes, their chances to launch the B797 are zilch. But they might even order them in future if they cannot get anything better from Airbus.
The most likely reason for these comments is that Ed is playing Airbus for a good deal on their A321LR (or XLR). But is does not mean he might (just might...) order some B797s when they are available - but never as a launch customer.

Added to this, some people might think dumb of me (and I would certainly accept it...), Airbus's proposal to have a TATL or Long Range Single Aisle aircraft rather than Boeing's proposal of another (albeit short) Twin Aisle, is much more appealing (less cabin crew - better operationality - see the B757 example), is way much more appealing. It would be better if Boeing either did stretch further (I am not sure if it is possible anyway..) the B737 or designed some sort of B787-7.


321 is not their 757 replacement -where did you get that. Retirements haven’t been set but they most likely don’t even start until after majority of the deliveries conclude. It’s obvious Delta strategy is to upgauge so why replace with something smaller. The 339 will replace some 767 but not all of their routes can handle a 339. If you think the 757 was so good for translantic why aren’t more deployed to international routes? Majority of the 757s are utilized in transcons (albeit it has changed a bit now between lax and jfk).


Valid points form you.
But, if the A321 in some sort of stretch or design (maybe as a, let's say, A322) is not the answer for the B757, why does then Airbus does not counter Boeing's NMA and come with their own short Twin Aisle? Although going initially on different ways on the strategy which ultimately delivered the A3XX (now A380), Airbus still countered Boeing's B787 with the A350 - they do not completely overlap but still somehow directly compete.

In the US, you are right, the B757 was mainly used on Transcon Routes but you still had (and actually have) several of them crossing the Atlantic on routes to Europe. Other European Operators also used the B757 in similar ways. Some Charters in Europe still keep them even now (although in Europe we do tend to renew fleets quicker than in the US - with some exceptions...).

I still believe that there's a market for a single aisle TATL/Transcon aircraft. Like many, I just do not know if it is big enough. Airbus might think it is. Boeing seems to feel otherwise.


The MOM market is not big enough to justify 2 clean sheets. The total volume maybe similar to say the A350-1000 + 777X but the manufacturer can't charge nearly as much for a MOM so you need much higher volume for ROI. Airbus can get a portion of the market with the A321 and A330 without major investment and that path will be much more profitable.

If both launch clean sheet MOM models they will both lose money.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1522
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:29 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
I can't agree with this part. Am I to believe that Boeing is screwing over airlines like FR and WN on pricing?


Well, interesting you mention Ryanair.

Airbus stopped quoting on Ryanair tenders - and made an extremely public proclamation that they were not responding to RFPs. They seen it as a waste of time.
https://www.ft.com/content/eb8fc516-f2e ... 00779fd2ac
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/air ... s-1.692988 [same as above only no subscription needed]

I have no doubt whatsoever, that this influenced Boeing's pricing on the 2009 deal that then resulted in MOL whinging.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... s-aircraft
Of course, the article says they did agree on pricing. They have also ordered 318 737's since that article was published (plus 10 on the day it was published).
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
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seabosdca
Posts: 6495
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

Re: Delta Wants to be NMA Launch Customer

Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:58 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
While I agree with the overall point that DL will order whatever aircraft best suits their needs for the best price, I can't agree with this part. Am I to believe that Boeing is screwing over airlines like FR and WN on pricing? Plus, DL is a large enough airline that they can get good pricing no matter what they ordered in the past.


As related above, MOL mistreated Airbus enough that Airbus decided not to deal with him, and suddenly his pricing from Boeing wasn't so favorable anymore. I'm sure it wasn't horrible given the volume, but some competition would have saved him money.

WN and Airbus have been in contact reasonably often, and WN has certainly evaluated Airbus proposals. It's just really hard for Airbus to put together one that makes sense given the benefits WN realizes from having an all-737 fleet. But if Boeing tried to "screw over" WN on pricing, Airbus would be there, and Boeing knows it.

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