CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1093
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Dutch government increases stock holding in KL-AF group.

Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:44 pm

18wheelers wrote:
Putting aside the usual french/dutch bashing, there is something I still don’t get.

We are being told by french specialized medias that, unlike CDG, AMS is close to being full with no remaining slot capacity.

The supposed strategy was to transfer activity to KLM for financial purposes of course (sounds logical considering crazy french labor taxes and constant increase of CDG taxes as well), but also before reaching AMS maximum capacity so as to have a greater number of slots. Then, growth would be oriented towards the french counterpart.

Now I read that the Dutch government wants to garantee that KLM will continue its growth and that activity won’t be transferred to CDG...

What’s the real situation in AMS ? Is there still available slot for potential growth of KLM ? Any plan for a new runway or new terminal in the near future ?


Given KLM’s current AMS slot portfolio, I am sure they will be able to expand by reducing frequencies to small cities and upgauging aircraft. Also I think the Dutch govt will eventually squeeze more slots. AMS is an economic driver.
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 387
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

Re: Dutch government increases stock holding in KL-AF group.

Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:47 pm

18wheelers wrote:
Putting aside the usual french/dutch bashing, there is something I still don’t get.

We are being told by french specialized medias that, unlike CDG, AMS is close to being full with no remaining slot capacity.

The supposed strategy was to transfer activity to KLM for financial purposes of course (sounds logical considering crazy french labor taxes and constant increase of CDG taxes as well), but also before reaching AMS maximum capacity so as to have a greater number of slots. Then, growth would be oriented towards the french counterpart.

Now I read that the Dutch government wants to garantee that KLM will continue its growth and that activity won’t be transferred to CDG...

What’s the real situation in AMS ? Is there still available slot for potential growth of KLM ? Any plan for a new runway or new terminal in the near future ?


AMS is a big airport with 5 long runways and 1 2000m runway.
6 full runways.
No airport in Europe comes close to AMS capacity wise.

All the restrictions at AMS are artifical. They are noise restrictions.
Many ruways are only used in and from one direction.

The slot cap is real and is purely artifical/political. Until 2021 AMS has no free slots left. The citizen groups that complain about AMS are trying tot get AMS locked up indefinitely. There is even quite a popular party, that even wants to shrink AMS.
These are dangerous people. They are anti aviation in general and anti many other things.
 
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MrBren
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:44 am

Re: Dutch government increases stock holding in KL-AF group.

Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:50 pm

The Netherlands refused to enter the capital of Air France-KLM ...

We today learn in the newpapers that the French government proposed to the Dutch government to take a stake in the AF KLM in June 2017 along with the capital increase and the Delta and China Eastern arrivals. The group agreed the deal. The condition was to sell the remaining stake in KLM. The Dutch government approved the deal but too late. The French government proposed to buy shares on the market, this proposal was not accepted by the counterpart with the reason that that was too costly. So it means that the Dutch side was firstly aware of the Delta and China Eastern stakes and secondly that they could have taken a stake in the AF KLM group much earlier without the drama that happened this week.

Details in French: https://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-servi ... 249026.php.
Last edited by MrBren on Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 387
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

Re: Dutch government increases stock holding in KL-AF group.

Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:54 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
18wheelers wrote:
Putting aside the usual french/dutch bashing, there is something I still don’t get.

We are being told by french specialized medias that, unlike CDG, AMS is close to being full with no remaining slot capacity.

The supposed strategy was to transfer activity to KLM for financial purposes of course (sounds logical considering crazy french labor taxes and constant increase of CDG taxes as well), but also before reaching AMS maximum capacity so as to have a greater number of slots. Then, growth would be oriented towards the french counterpart.

Now I read that the Dutch government wants to garantee that KLM will continue its growth and that activity won’t be transferred to CDG...

What’s the real situation in AMS ? Is there still available slot for potential growth of KLM ? Any plan for a new runway or new terminal in the near future ?


Given KLM’s current AMS slot portfolio, I am sure they will be able to expand by reducing frequencies to small cities and upgauging aircraft. Also I think the Dutch govt will eventually squeeze more slots. AMS is an economic driver.


Slots given for AMS-MAN can not be used for AMS-JFK i think.
I read that buying Flybe doesnt mean you can use their slots for long-haul destinations. But I’m no expert in this matter.

AMS has a limited amout of widebody gates. Capacity for up gauging aircraft from narrow to widebody is limited.
Turkish has up gauged its flight from narrow to widebody and taken a lot gate capacity that is in the way of long-haul widebody aircraft. I read Schiphol might want to take action against this.

KL is changing its 737-700’s for 800’s now
They should not have taken the smaller embraers but only the largest version.
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 13178
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Dutch government increases stock holding in KL-AF group.

Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:09 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
18wheelers wrote:
Putting aside the usual french/dutch bashing, there is something I still don’t get.

We are being told by french specialized medias that, unlike CDG, AMS is close to being full with no remaining slot capacity.

The supposed strategy was to transfer activity to KLM for financial purposes of course (sounds logical considering crazy french labor taxes and constant increase of CDG taxes as well), but also before reaching AMS maximum capacity so as to have a greater number of slots. Then, growth would be oriented towards the french counterpart.

Now I read that the Dutch government wants to garantee that KLM will continue its growth and that activity won’t be transferred to CDG...

What’s the real situation in AMS ? Is there still available slot for potential growth of KLM ? Any plan for a new runway or new terminal in the near future ?


Given KLM’s current AMS slot portfolio, I am sure they will be able to expand by reducing frequencies to small cities and upgauging aircraft. Also I think the Dutch govt will eventually squeeze more slots. AMS is an economic driver.


Slots given for AMS-MAN can not be used for AMS-JFK i think.
I read that buying Flybe doesnt mean you can use their slots for long-haul destinations. But I’m no expert in this matter.

AMS has a limited amout of widebody gates. Capacity for up gauging aircraft from narrow to widebody is limited.
Turkish has up gauged its flight from narrow to widebody and taken a lot gate capacity that is in the way of long-haul widebody aircraft. I read Schiphol might want to take action against this.

KL is changing its 737-700’s for 800’s now
They should not have taken the smaller embraers but only the largest version.


For feeder flights/ replaci g F70s it seems a good choice often 40/50 passengers on high frequencies to UK, Germany & Scandinavian cities.

Back on topic, the onorthodox shares trading was't the first one & the french government made clear during two year negotiations they wanted to keep control.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Jetty
Posts: 975
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Dutch government increases stock holding in KL-AF group.

Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:22 pm

18wheelers wrote:
What is the real situation in AMS ? Is there still available slot for potential growth of KLM ? Any plan for a new runway or new terminal in the near future ?

AMS has 4 runways that can be used at the same time, which allow for more than the current 500.000 flights, which is an artificial cap for political reasons. Without a major reorganization of air traffic control the safe maximum number of flights is 540.000 and AMS will likely be allowed to reach that number after 2021.

Their are physical constraints though: at peak times all 4 runways are in use, lack of parking stands, terminal space and gates. This means the real capacity limit currently isn’t much higher than the artificial cap imposed.

AMS is currently building a new terminal and pier to resolve these issues, to be finished in 2023: https://news.schiphol.com/amsterdam-air ... -terminal/? That kind of answers the question about potential growth: building an extra terminal with a planned capacity of 14 million passangers wouldn’t be done -with political backing- if they didn’t foresee it to be used. There is also room for 2 more runways, but no final decision has been made about those.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11849
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Dutch government increases stock holding in KL-AF group.

Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:22 pm

Jetty wrote:
Curiousflyer wrote:
No French newspaper seems to question the reappointment of Pieter Elbers

From 'Les Echos':
Selon nos informations, Bercy serait même prêt à bloquer la convocation de l'assemblée générale des actionnaires d'Air France-KLM, prévue en avril et qui doit notamment reconduire le mandat du président de KLM, Pieter Elbers, pour contraindre les Néerlandais à revenir à de meilleurs sentiments.

According to our information, the government would even be ready to block the convening of the general meeting of shareholders of Air France-KLM, scheduled for April and which must in particular renew the mandate of KLM chairman, Pieter Elbers, to compel the Dutch to return to better feelings.


https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=nl


The goal wouldn't be to block the appointment of the CEO. The French government doesn't care one bit who KL's CEO is. If that happened, Elbers would stay CEO anyway, until the shareholders could meet, so that wouldn't accomplish anything.

No, the goal would to block the adding of more Dutch administrators, keeping the board as it is now.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
Posts: 11849
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Dutch government increases stock holding in KL-AF group.

Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:27 pm

JBH wrote:
blueflyer wrote:
Jetty wrote:
I don't doubt your real-life experience, and I knew that happened before you mentioning it. Where you go wrong is assuming your personal experience applies to AFKL. As I explained this doesn't make sense in their situation as unlike most other concerns they don't fully own their operations in The Netherlands (KLM) but only receive 93% of dividends and they would thus be giving away free money to other KL shareholders by shifting profits to KL on paper. If that doesn't make sense to you please explain why a French company with the French government as largest shareholder would be giving away 7% of their profits to other shareholders of KL.

93% of after-tax profit taxed at the standard corporate rate in the Netherlands is more than 100% of the same profit after the standard French corporate rate. Standard corporate tax rates are public (you can do the math). As are some of the many discounted rates in the Netherlands (far more than in France).


I am somewhat surprised by this discussion. Maybe I am missing something but I work for a major company with subsidiaries all over Europe (HQ is in Belgium). We have full ownership in some subsidiaries and in others majorities. It is completely illegal for us to transfer profits from one country to another, profit has to be declared in the country where it is made. What we can do is transfer an amount of Euros as support but this needs a lot of justification through memoranda, proof of spending on required support activities and needs to comply to certain rules (you cannot just support what you like). Every time we give anything to any country we go through a tough process of control even for 100k Euros, all is documented in case tax authorities ask for proof. It would seem difficult to transfer anything from AF to KL since there is little justification as to why KL needs support, especially if you talk many millions. The French authorities would jump on these transfers very quickly. Anyway, maybe in airline business there is a different rule but I doubt that.


Royalties are a common way to do this. You give/sell your brand to the Netherlands (or more probably a Caribbean island country), then the French company has to pay huge royalties to that foreign entity, for the right to use its own brand, to the point all the profit is sucked by that entity.

Starbucks does this, for example.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
18wheelers
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:04 pm

Re: Dutch government increases stock holding in KL-AF group.

Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:49 pm

Thanks Jetty. That surely explains the reason why the Dutch gouvernment is pushing hard on the group to guarantee KLM fleet expansion.

Regarding KLM fleet, I’m trying to find the evolution of their fleet since before the merge, let’s say from 1995. I hear that KL fleet has been steadily growing since the merge while AF fleet was downsized but can’t find any tablechart or anything to back this up. Easy to find the actual fleet, but not easy to find records.

Maybe that move from the Dutch governmnent will help the French government understand that something must be done regarding labor taxation and airport taxes or we might see AFKL HQ shift from Paris to Amsterdam...? I often hear that, if France had the same tax environment than NL, AF would be as profitable as KLM giving its revenue per passenger.
 
AvioBlue
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:30 pm

Re: Dutch government increases stock holding in KL-AF group.

Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:23 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
18wheelers wrote:
Putting aside the usual french/dutch bashing, there is something I still don’t get.

We are being told by french specialized medias that, unlike CDG, AMS is close to being full with no remaining slot capacity.

The supposed strategy was to transfer activity to KLM for financial purposes of course (sounds logical considering crazy french labor taxes and constant increase of CDG taxes as well), but also before reaching AMS maximum capacity so as to have a greater number of slots. Then, growth would be oriented towards the french counterpart.

Now I read that the Dutch government wants to garantee that KLM will continue its growth and that activity won’t be transferred to CDG...

What’s the real situation in AMS ? Is there still available slot for potential growth of KLM ? Any plan for a new runway or new terminal in the near future ?


Given KLM’s current AMS slot portfolio, I am sure they will be able to expand by reducing frequencies to small cities and upgauging aircraft. Also I think the Dutch govt will eventually squeeze more slots. AMS is an economic driver.


Slots given for AMS-MAN can not be used for AMS-JFK i think.
I read that buying Flybe doesnt mean you can use their slots for long-haul destinations. But I’m no expert in this matter.

AMS has a limited amout of widebody gates. Capacity for up gauging aircraft from narrow to widebody is limited.
Turkish has up gauged its flight from narrow to widebody and taken a lot gate capacity that is in the way of long-haul widebody aircraft. I read Schiphol might want to take action against this.

KL is changing its 737-700’s for 800’s now
They should not have taken the smaller embraers but only the largest version.

The destination does not matter, the slot being used for a widebody or narrowbody aircraft however does. TUIfly for example, leases slots from FlyBe in the summer season, which are put on both long as short haul flights.

Amsterdam is reaching its peak terminal capacity at the moment, but there currently are no restrictions with regards to available widebody gates.
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 387
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

Re: Dutch government increases stock holding in KL-AF group.

Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:14 pm

AvioBlue wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:

Given KLM’s current AMS slot portfolio, I am sure they will be able to expand by reducing frequencies to small cities and upgauging aircraft. Also I think the Dutch govt will eventually squeeze more slots. AMS is an economic driver.


Slots given for AMS-MAN can not be used for AMS-JFK i think.
I read that buying Flybe doesnt mean you can use their slots for long-haul destinations. But I’m no expert in this matter.

AMS has a limited amout of widebody gates. Capacity for up gauging aircraft from narrow to widebody is limited.
Turkish has up gauged its flight from narrow to widebody and taken a lot gate capacity that is in the way of long-haul widebody aircraft. I read Schiphol might want to take action against this.

KL is changing its 737-700’s for 800’s now
They should not have taken the smaller embraers but only the largest version.

The destination does not matter, the slot being used for a widebody or narrowbody aircraft however does. TUIfly for example, leases slots from FlyBe in the summer season, which are put on both long as short haul flights.

Amsterdam is reaching its peak terminal capacity at the moment, but there currently are no restrictions with regards to available widebody gates.


Widebody restrictions at ams:

https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... k-schiphol

Max 41 wbs during morning inbound peak.

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