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LAXintl
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JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:19 am

Reports that JAL has registered the corporate names ZIPAIR and ZIPAIR Tokyo along with zipair.jp for its upcoming longhaul LCC project that plans to utilize 787 equipment.

https://www.traicy.com/20190226-zipair

Also, earlier this week in the companies annual management plan update, it reconfirmed plans a FY2020 launch for the carrier which would ”Offer low-cost high-quality new travel style on medium- and long-haul routes to Asia, Europe and North America from Narita hub”

Some might remember Zip was previously used by Air Canada for a LCC venture using 737s in the early 2000s.
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:47 am

Airlines are trying too hard to be cute with their naming.
 
downdata
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:22 am

Oh dear, i can see this working out real well for JAL. Long haul and LCC just dont go together.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:33 am

I wonder if the 787 will still be 2-4-2 seating.
 
leyland1989
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:56 am

Ziyulu wrote:
I wonder if the 787 will still be 2-4-2 seating.

No.

JALは航空機の取得や運転資金として、特別成長投資枠の500億円のうち230億円を投資する。機体は既存のボーイング787型機2機をエコノミークラスを横9席などに改修し、アジアや欧米線などを中心に2020年夏スケジュールから運航を開始する見通し。


"787型機2機をエコノミークラスを横9席"
2*787 joining the fleet will be converted into 9 abreast
Airbus:319,320,332,333,343,345,346,359,388
Boeing: 717,734,738,753,74R,742,743,744,74E,748,763,772,773,77E,77L,77W,788,789
Misc:AT5,CN1,CNJ,CR2,CR7,CR9,DH8,ER4,ERD,E70,E75,E90,M11,S20
 
EBT
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:26 am

downdata wrote:
Oh dear, i can see this working out real well for JAL. Long haul and LCC just dont go together.


Ah, but in Asia Pacific they do. Jetstar pioneered it in 2006, followed by AirAsia X and Scoot thereafter. Sure, they aren't exactly raking it in, but the longhaul LCC genie is well out of the bottle, and the fact that they have survived for so long means that it has its place.

Look, I hate the name, but reckon this will work for JAL, if it is given the right amount of freedom to chase the markets and customers that work for it. I'll be interested to see how it goes working alongside Jetstar Japan, and long term it wouldn't surprise me if both carriers end up together, but we will see.
Last edited by EBT on Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
smi0006
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:40 am

EBT wrote:
downdata wrote:
Oh dear, i can see this working out real well for JAL. Long haul and LCC just dont go together.


Ah, but in Asia Pacific they do. Jetstar pioneered it in 2006, followed by AirAsia X and Scoot thereafter. Sure, they aren't exactly raking it in, but the longhaul LCC genie is well out of the bottle, and the fact that they have survived for so long means that it has its place.

Look, I hate the name, but reckon this will work for JAL, if it is given the right amount of freedom to chase the markets and customers that work for it. I'll be interested to see how it goes working alongside Jetstar Japan, and long term it wouldn't surprise me if both carriers end up together, but we will see.


What doesn’t make sense is doesn’t JL own a percentage of Jetstar Japan? I’m sure QF wouldn’t mind if they expanded the groups presence into long haul? Jetstar Australia already fly between Australia and Japan.
 
ShinyAndChrome
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:48 am

downdata wrote:
Oh dear, i can see this working out real well for JAL. Long haul and LCC just dont go together.


It's worth mentioning that the definition of "long haul" can vary based on what you're comparing it to. Asian LCCs are already well established on routes in the 6-8 hour range. I think there's easily a precedent for something like this to do well in a market like TYO-BKK or TYO-HNL. It could also eventually sub in for Jetstar Japan on shorter haul routes like TPE or MNL that could use the extra lift. If you're talking about something like Japan to Western Europe or the most of the Continental US that'll draw 10+ hours, I think that's a much shakier proposition.

Sidenote, I wonder if "Zipair" could be related to "Zipang", which was an archaic name for Japan from the Marco Polo era.
 
EBT
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:49 am

Yes, JAL and Qantas both hold a 33% stake in Jetstar Japan. Back when it was established, Qantas did talk about potentially sending some widebodies to Jetstar Japan. But the way I read the tea leaves at the time, JAL wasn't really convinced about the potential of LCCs and basically just came along to make sure they didn't cede the market to AirAsia Japan (which at the time was part of ANA's fold).

To be fair, a lot has changed since then. Qantas is appeasing shareholders by keeping its capex limited, while JAL is looking to expand its business. Jetstar Japan and 'Zip' will work together, and perhaps down the track they could merge. But for JAL this is still an experiment, and it makes sense for them to get in before AirAsia X gets a tighter grip in the market, or the Korean rivals (ie T'way) start to pick off the traffic.
 
downdata
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:13 am

EBT wrote:
downdata wrote:
Oh dear, i can see this working out real well for JAL. Long haul and LCC just dont go together.


Ah, but in Asia Pacific they do. Jetstar pioneered it in 2006, followed by AirAsia X and Scoot thereafter. Sure, they aren't exactly raking it in, but the longhaul LCC genie is well out of the bottle, and the fact that they have survived for so long means that it has its place.

Look, I hate the name, but reckon this will work for JAL, if it is given the right amount of freedom to chase the markets and customers that work for it. I'll be interested to see how it goes working alongside Jetstar Japan, and long term it wouldn't surprise me if both carriers end up together, but we will see.


There is a reason why J* international hasnt expanded at all since inception, its being proped up the short haul and regional flying. Scoot and Asia Asia are at best regional. The true “long haul” LCC is Norwegian and we know how that experient is going...
 
EBT
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:18 am

downdata wrote:
EBT wrote:
downdata wrote:
Oh dear, i can see this working out real well for JAL. Long haul and LCC just dont go together.


Ah, but in Asia Pacific they do. Jetstar pioneered it in 2006, followed by AirAsia X and Scoot thereafter. Sure, they aren't exactly raking it in, but the longhaul LCC genie is well out of the bottle, and the fact that they have survived for so long means that it has its place.

Look, I hate the name, but reckon this will work for JAL, if it is given the right amount of freedom to chase the markets and customers that work for it. I'll be interested to see how it goes working alongside Jetstar Japan, and long term it wouldn't surprise me if both carriers end up together, but we will see.


There is a reason why J* international hasnt expanded at all since inception, its being proped up the short haul and regional flying. Scoot and Asia Asia are at best regional. The true “long haul” LCC is Norwegian and we know how that experient is going...


At the risk of taking it off-piste, Norwegian is also being propped up by short haul/regional flying - or at least using up the cash the short haul op generates. Scoot and AirAsia X operate on segments the same or longer than Norwegian (SIN-BER; KIX-HNL), and X is a separate company to AirAsia with its own (underperforming) financials.
 
emuwarveteran
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:43 am

Possibly something similar to Air Canada Rouge?
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c933103
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:46 am

downdata wrote:
EBT wrote:
downdata wrote:
Oh dear, i can see this working out real well for JAL. Long haul and LCC just dont go together.


Ah, but in Asia Pacific they do. Jetstar pioneered it in 2006, followed by AirAsia X and Scoot thereafter. Sure, they aren't exactly raking it in, but the longhaul LCC genie is well out of the bottle, and the fact that they have survived for so long means that it has its place.

Look, I hate the name, but reckon this will work for JAL, if it is given the right amount of freedom to chase the markets and customers that work for it. I'll be interested to see how it goes working alongside Jetstar Japan, and long term it wouldn't surprise me if both carriers end up together, but we will see.


There is a reason why J* international hasnt expanded at all since inception, its being proped up the short haul and regional flying. Scoot and Asia Asia are at best regional. The true “long haul” LCC is Norwegian and we know how that experient is going...

Of course Air Asia isn't long haul LCC, because Air Asia X that fly those routes is a separate company.
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winginit
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:47 am

downdata wrote:
EBT wrote:
downdata wrote:
Oh dear, i can see this working out real well for JAL. Long haul and LCC just dont go together.


Ah, but in Asia Pacific they do. Jetstar pioneered it in 2006, followed by AirAsia X and Scoot thereafter. Sure, they aren't exactly raking it in, but the longhaul LCC genie is well out of the bottle, and the fact that they have survived for so long means that it has its place.

Look, I hate the name, but reckon this will work for JAL, if it is given the right amount of freedom to chase the markets and customers that work for it. I'll be interested to see how it goes working alongside Jetstar Japan, and long term it wouldn't surprise me if both carriers end up together, but we will see.


There is a reason why J* international hasnt expanded at all since inception, its being proped up the short haul and regional flying. Scoot and Asia Asia are at best regional. The true “long haul” LCC is Norwegian and we know how that experient is going...


Exactly. If the point of comparison is Norwegian, which it should be, AirAsiaX and Scoot are not long-haul LCCs. AirAsiaX's longest route is 4,389 miles (JED-KUL) and Scoot's 4,571 (JED-SIN). That's literally thousands of miles less than many of DY's TATL services (their longest is LAX-FCO at 6,354 miles) whose distances are far more comparable to JL's long-haul TPAC routes (JL's longest is JFKHND at 6,773).

c933103 wrote:
Of course Air Asia isn't long haul LCC, because Air Asia X that fly those routes is a separate company.


AirAsiaX's average length of haul is 2,792 miles. I'd argue that's not long-haul but of course it's up for debate. For a frame of reference that's roughly the same distance as that between KUL and PEK.

For more points of reference, the average length of haul for a flight between the Continental United States and Asia is 6,617 miles. The average length of haul for a flight between the Continental United States and Continental Europe is 4,438 miles.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:21 am

ShinyAndChrome wrote:
Sidenote, I wonder if "Zipair" could be related to "Zipang", which was an archaic name for Japan from the Marco Polo era.


Having worked in Tokyo, I think it is more likely that the "creatives" sat around a table and tried to come as close as possible to "Scoot" and "Jet" without being too obvious. Scoot Jet. Zip Air. :lol:

And... the history of Japan as delivered by the JP school system doesn't dwell on "foreign influences", esp. China or Korea. Example: some Japanese think kanji are Japanese in origin. (In fact, there are a few Japanese-made kanji, called "Wasei-kango", but 99+% of kanji are traditional Chinese characters.)
 
juliuswong
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:51 am

Good Lord, let's hope not another rainbow or colour pencils livery for this new start up.......

On a side note, I can't help but notice, perhaps this is how JL Group plans to fight back ANA's plan to deploy three A380 on Hawaii route, also to stem AirAsia X's aggressive plan on KIX-HNL and soon to US West Coast. B787 is definitely a winner against A330ceo/neo, in almost every operation metrics. Hopefully AirAsia X will bring in their A350 to fight.
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TC957
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:03 am

juliuswong wrote:
Good Lord, let's hope not another rainbow or colour pencils livery for this new start up.......

On a side note, I can't help but notice, perhaps this is how JL Group plans to fight back ANA's plan to deploy three A380 on Hawaii route, also to stem AirAsia X's aggressive plan on KIX-HNL and soon to US West Coast. B787 is definitely a winner against A330ceo/neo, in almost every operation metrics. Hopefully AirAsia X will bring in their A350 to fight.

Why not ? I thought those JAS MD-90's looked fab !
 
debonair
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:24 am

Again?! Hope JAL is holding the trademark rights...

 
c933103
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:01 am

winginit wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Of course Air Asia isn't long haul LCC, because Air Asia X that fly those routes is a separate company.


AirAsiaX's average length of haul is 2,792 miles. I'd argue that's not long-haul but of course it's up for debate. For a frame of reference that's roughly the same distance as that between KUL and PEK.

For more points of reference, the average length of haul for a flight between the Continental United States and Asia is 6,617 miles. The average length of haul for a flight between the Continental United States and Continental Europe is 4,438 miles.


"Average" is a useless metrics. I have already talked about it in MoM's thread a few times some months ago. An average between a 500 miles flight and a 5500 miles flight is 3000 miles. And AirAsia X do also operate a number of shorter trunk routes.(Just like the 500 miles route in the example). Does that mean they aren't also flying a number of longer routes with something like ~5000 miles distance?
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RyanairGuru
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:55 am

winginit wrote:
downdata wrote:
EBT wrote:

Ah, but in Asia Pacific they do. Jetstar pioneered it in 2006, followed by AirAsia X and Scoot thereafter. Sure, they aren't exactly raking it in, but the longhaul LCC genie is well out of the bottle, and the fact that they have survived for so long means that it has its place.

Look, I hate the name, but reckon this will work for JAL, if it is given the right amount of freedom to chase the markets and customers that work for it. I'll be interested to see how it goes working alongside Jetstar Japan, and long term it wouldn't surprise me if both carriers end up together, but we will see.


There is a reason why J* international hasnt expanded at all since inception, its being proped up the short haul and regional flying. Scoot and Asia Asia are at best regional. The true “long haul” LCC is Norwegian and we know how that experient is going...


Exactly. If the point of comparison is Norwegian, which it should be, AirAsiaX and Scoot are not long-haul LCCs. AirAsiaX's longest route is 4,389 miles (JED-KUL) and Scoot's 4,571 (JED-SIN). That's literally thousands of miles less than many of DY's TATL services (their longest is LAX-FCO at 6,354 miles) whose distances are far more comparable to JL's long-haul TPAC routes (JL's longest is JFKHND at 6,773).

c933103 wrote:
Of course Air Asia isn't long haul LCC, because Air Asia X that fly those routes is a separate company.


AirAsiaX's average length of haul is 2,792 miles. I'd argue that's not long-haul but of course it's up for debate. For a frame of reference that's roughly the same distance as that between KUL and PEK.

For more points of reference, the average length of haul for a flight between the Continental United States and Asia is 6,617 miles. The average length of haul for a flight between the Continental United States and Continental Europe is 4,438 miles.


Scoot fly both SIN-TXL and SIN-ATH, and other than DPS Jetstar's entire long haul network is longer than 3500 mi (the shortest CNS-KIX at 3596 mi is about the same length as JFK-CDG, while the longest MEL-HNL at 5504 mi is about the same length as SFO-CDG).
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vsflyer747400
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:00 am

winginit wrote:
downdata wrote:
EBT wrote:

Ah, but in Asia Pacific they do. Jetstar pioneered it in 2006, followed by AirAsia X and Scoot thereafter. Sure, they aren't exactly raking it in, but the longhaul LCC genie is well out of the bottle, and the fact that they have survived for so long means that it has its place.

Look, I hate the name, but reckon this will work for JAL, if it is given the right amount of freedom to chase the markets and customers that work for it. I'll be interested to see how it goes working alongside Jetstar Japan, and long term it wouldn't surprise me if both carriers end up together, but we will see.


There is a reason why J* international hasnt expanded at all since inception, its being proped up the short haul and regional flying. Scoot and Asia Asia are at best regional. The true “long haul” LCC is Norwegian and we know how that experient is going...


Exactly. If the point of comparison is Norwegian, which it should be, AirAsiaX and Scoot are not long-haul LCCs. AirAsiaX's longest route is 4,389 miles (JED-KUL) and Scoot's 4,571 (JED-SIN). That's literally thousands of miles less than many of DY's TATL services (their longest is LAX-FCO at 6,354 miles) whose distances are far more comparable to JL's long-haul TPAC routes (JL's longest is JFKHND at 6,773).

c933103 wrote:
Of course Air Asia isn't long haul LCC, because Air Asia X that fly those routes is a separate company.


AirAsiaX's average length of haul is 2,792 miles. I'd argue that's not long-haul but of course it's up for debate. For a frame of reference that's roughly the same distance as that between KUL and PEK.

For more points of reference, the average length of haul for a flight between the Continental United States and Asia is 6,617 miles. The average length of haul for a flight between the Continental United States and Continental Europe is 4,438 miles.


Scoot still fly ATH-SIN which has got to be about another 1,000 miles or so longer than JED-SIN - so I think you will find you're wrong on Scoot's longest route.
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Waterbomber2
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:11 am

I think that LCC is a relative term in Japan.
Don't expect Norwegian-style cheap fares.
This is just meant to put some dots in Europe. I see AMS, DUS, MXP, FCO as potential destinations but on less than daily frequencies.
Those destinations where a flight makes sense but not with a low density B787 and not daily.
A small J class and a high density Y class and even Barcelona 3 weekly starts making sense.

2 aircraft is a bit ridiculous though.
At least 5 aircraft for launch is desirable, otherwise one goes tech and what now?
 
Ziyulu
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:12 pm

Does anyone know if this type of LCC would provide food and drink in Y?
 
jfk777
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:21 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I think that LCC is a relative term in Japan.
Don't expect Norwegian-style cheap fares.
This is just meant to put some dots in Europe. I see AMS, DUS, MXP, FCO as potential destinations but on less than daily frequencies.
Those destinations where a flight makes sense but not with a low density B787 and not daily.
A small J class and a high density Y class and even Barcelona 3 weekly starts making sense.

2 aircraft is a bit ridiculous though.
At least 5 aircraft for launch is desirable, otherwise one goes tech and what now?


The fleet plan has to be for more 787's. 2 787 don't make sense and JAL usually does rational things except maybe flying to Brazil.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:31 pm

vsflyer747400 wrote:
winginit wrote:
downdata wrote:

There is a reason why J* international hasnt expanded at all since inception, its being proped up the short haul and regional flying. Scoot and Asia Asia are at best regional. The true “long haul” LCC is Norwegian and we know how that experient is going...


Exactly. If the point of comparison is Norwegian, which it should be, AirAsiaX and Scoot are not long-haul LCCs. AirAsiaX's longest route is 4,389 miles (JED-KUL) and Scoot's 4,571 (JED-SIN). That's literally thousands of miles less than many of DY's TATL services (their longest is LAX-FCO at 6,354 miles) whose distances are far more comparable to JL's long-haul TPAC routes (JL's longest is JFKHND at 6,773).

c933103 wrote:
Of course Air Asia isn't long haul LCC, because Air Asia X that fly those routes is a separate company.


AirAsiaX's average length of haul is 2,792 miles. I'd argue that's not long-haul but of course it's up for debate. For a frame of reference that's roughly the same distance as that between KUL and PEK.

For more points of reference, the average length of haul for a flight between the Continental United States and Asia is 6,617 miles. The average length of haul for a flight between the Continental United States and Continental Europe is 4,438 miles.


Scoot still fly ATH-SIN which has got to be about another 1,000 miles or so longer than JED-SIN - so I think you will find you're wrong on Scoot's longest route.

Actually Berlin TXL is the furthest Scoot route.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:36 pm

Positively speaking it is not rarAir or 7zipAir
 
winginit
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:15 pm

c933103 wrote:
winginit wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Of course Air Asia isn't long haul LCC, because Air Asia X that fly those routes is a separate company.


AirAsiaX's average length of haul is 2,792 miles. I'd argue that's not long-haul but of course it's up for debate. For a frame of reference that's roughly the same distance as that between KUL and PEK.

For more points of reference, the average length of haul for a flight between the Continental United States and Asia is 6,617 miles. The average length of haul for a flight between the Continental United States and Continental Europe is 4,438 miles.


"Average" is a useless metrics. I have already talked about it in MoM's thread a few times some months ago. An average between a 500 miles flight and a 5500 miles flight is 3000 miles. And AirAsia X do also operate a number of shorter trunk routes.(Just like the 500 miles route in the example). Does that mean they aren't also flying a number of longer routes with something like ~5000 miles distance?


Which is of course why earlier in my same post that you're quoting there I also shared AirAsiaX's longest route; and no, they very much aren't flying a number of longer routes with something like ~5000 miles distance. Please do pay attention.

jeffrey0032j wrote:
vsflyer747400 wrote:
Scoot still fly ATH-SIN which has got to be about another 1,000 miles or so longer than JED-SIN - so I think you will find you're wrong on Scoot's longest route.

Actually Berlin TXL is the furthest Scoot route.


My mistake. It is indeed SIN-TXL at 6,174 miles.
 
ShinyAndChrome
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:31 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
ShinyAndChrome wrote:
Sidenote, I wonder if "Zipair" could be related to "Zipang", which was an archaic name for Japan from the Marco Polo era.


Having worked in Tokyo, I think it is more likely that the "creatives" sat around a table and tried to come as close as possible to "Scoot" and "Jet" without being too obvious. Scoot Jet. Zip Air. :lol:

And... the history of Japan as delivered by the JP school system doesn't dwell on "foreign influences", esp. China or Korea. Example: some Japanese think kanji are Japanese in origin. (In fact, there are a few Japanese-made kanji, called "Wasei-kango", but 99+% of kanji are traditional Chinese characters.)


While I agree/know about what you said re: Japanese schooling, at least as far as naming things, foreign and foreign derived terms are pretty trendy. The term "Zipang" itself does show up in Japanese pop culture from time to time https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.billbo ... ki-x-japan

In any case, this kind of marketing stuff is fun to speculate about.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:45 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Does anyone know if this type of LCC would provide food and drink in Y?


No doubt they'll have a buy-on-board program. LCC and free food and drinks don't go hand in hand, why give it for free if you can charge for it?
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:50 pm

downdata wrote:
Oh dear, i can see this working out real well for JAL. Long haul and LCC just dont go together.


Sorry, but I have to disagree. As others have already mentioned, JetStar, Scoot and AirAsia X are doing pretty well on low-cost long haul. Norwegian not so, but that's because of it's own bad management. The concept has possibilities to become profitable, but they're not playing their cards right.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:19 pm

ShinyAndChrome wrote:
The term "Zipang" itself does show up in Japanese pop culture from time to time https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.billbo ... ki-x-japan

In any case, this kind of marketing stuff is fun to speculate about.


IMO, the most famous use of Zipang was the 90's manga series... but I doubt the readers then or now have the fainest clue what the title means.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zipang_(manga)
 
TWA902fly
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:25 am

winginit wrote:
c933103 wrote:
winginit wrote:


AirAsiaX's average length of haul is 2,792 miles. I'd argue that's not long-haul but of course it's up for debate. For a frame of reference that's roughly the same distance as that between KUL and PEK.

For more points of reference, the average length of haul for a flight between the Continental United States and Asia is 6,617 miles. The average length of haul for a flight between the Continental United States and Continental Europe is 4,438 miles.


"Average" is a useless metrics. I have already talked about it in MoM's thread a few times some months ago. An average between a 500 miles flight and a 5500 miles flight is 3000 miles. And AirAsia X do also operate a number of shorter trunk routes.(Just like the 500 miles route in the example). Does that mean they aren't also flying a number of longer routes with something like ~5000 miles distance?


Which is of course why earlier in my same post that you're quoting there I also shared AirAsiaX's longest route; and no, they very much aren't flying a number of longer routes with something like ~5000 miles distance. Please do pay attention.

jeffrey0032j wrote:
vsflyer747400 wrote:
Scoot still fly ATH-SIN which has got to be about another 1,000 miles or so longer than JED-SIN - so I think you will find you're wrong on Scoot's longest route.

Actually Berlin TXL is the furthest Scoot route.


My mistake. It is indeed SIN-TXL at 6,174 miles.


Also, Norwegian's longest route is LGW-EZE, not FCO-LAX.

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
a350lover
Posts: 715
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:45 am

I see possibilities for purely leisure destinations, for which places like DUS don’t match in my opinion.

They may go for un/underserved markets such as Bacelona, Madrid, and some others with tourism as the core: Venice, Prague, Brussels, maybe more capacity to London or Amsterdam?
 
Maliyanwalto
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:04 am

Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:00 am

Hello,
I find it highly significant that JAL chose NOT to go with the established Jetstar Japan to expand into long haul... shows confidence in its own management and resources, and that it is not willing to split the earnings with QF.
On the other hand, perhaps QF WAS presented with the opportunity to expand Jetstar Japan and chose not to. Likewise, I would’ve expected Jetstar Pacific to have expanded more by now... perhaps QF isn’t willing for any of its Jetstar partners to grow into long haul at this point, with the obvious exception of Jetstar Australia...
Keep smilin’
Maliyanwalto
 
Guillaume787
Posts: 28
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:20 am

jfk777 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
I think that LCC is a relative term in Japan.
Don't expect Norwegian-style cheap fares.
This is just meant to put some dots in Europe. I see AMS, DUS, MXP, FCO as potential destinations but on less than daily frequencies.
Those destinations where a flight makes sense but not with a low density B787 and not daily.
A small J class and a high density Y class and even Barcelona 3 weekly starts making sense.

2 aircraft is a bit ridiculous though.
At least 5 aircraft for launch is desirable, otherwise one goes tech and what now?


The fleet plan has to be for more 787's. 2 787 don't make sense and JAL usually does rational things except maybe flying to Brazil.


Why is JAL flying to Brazil not rational? Brazil is home to the largest Japanese population outside Japan. There are approximately 1.6 million Japanese-Brazilians living in São Paulo.
 
Guillaume787
Posts: 28
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:38 am

a350lover wrote:
I see possibilities for purely leisure destinations, for which places like DUS don’t match in my opinion.

They may go for un/underserved markets such as Bacelona, Madrid, and some others with tourism as the core: Venice, Prague, Brussels, maybe more capacity to London or Amsterdam?


Agreed! Barcelona and Madrid are under-served from Japan. I could also see possible frequencies to London Gatwick, Paris Orly, and either Venice/Rome but only once they have more frames operating.
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 383
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:56 am

Madrid already has a direct flight with IB, low yields and the capacity is matching demand, so no need to challenge them.
LGW would compete against their twice daily LHR which still have opptortunities to grow, as one of the flights is still B788.
Not impossible though.
ORY is a clear no, though perhaps they could reinstore a NRT-CDG in this denser configuration.
VCE and FCO are possibilities.
BRU/DUS is challenging given NH's presence, but not impossible. NH is doing well and there could be room to share into that success.
 
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janders
Moderator
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:53 am

ATW has a bit more info.

Start with 2 787-8s in 2020, with additional 2 frames added each subsequent years.

Definitely looking at crossing Pacific to the US. JAL director says "Currently, there are hardly any LCCs operating transpacific flights from Asia to west coast America. We hope to pioneer that in Japan,” he said. “For us, the Pacific market is blue.”"


https://atwonline.com/airlines/jal-s-lc ... h-imminent
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
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aemoreira1981
Posts: 2780
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:07 am

Guillaume787 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
I think that LCC is a relative term in Japan.
Don't expect Norwegian-style cheap fares.
This is just meant to put some dots in Europe. I see AMS, DUS, MXP, FCO as potential destinations but on less than daily frequencies.
Those destinations where a flight makes sense but not with a low density B787 and not daily.
A small J class and a high density Y class and even Barcelona 3 weekly starts making sense.

2 aircraft is a bit ridiculous though.
At least 5 aircraft for launch is desirable, otherwise one goes tech and what now?


The fleet plan has to be for more 787's. 2 787 don't make sense and JAL usually does rational things except maybe flying to Brazil.


Why is JAL flying to Brazil not rational? Brazil is home to the largest Japanese population outside Japan. There are approximately 1.6 million Japanese-Brazilians living in São Paulo.


It's too long without a stop, and one does not want to transit via the USA if one doesn't have to. (JL used to fly NRT-JFK-GRU and NRT-JFK-GIG.) To that end, JL lets AM handle that traffic, as JL codeshares with AM to MEX, although it also codeshares on JJ on JFK-GRU. But even more important, would it be suitable for a high-J carrier like JL to fly even a one-stop service with 5th freedom rights? No JL long-haul plane has more than 245 seats, and some have just 161 seats. JL would have a hard time filling the J cabin.

As for Zipair, I would not be surprised if it took all of the NRT long-haul, with 9-abreast seating in Y there as opposed to 8-abreast seating on mainline Dreamliners. However, JL absolutely would need B789s on the network as there would be a need to maintain F to at least JFK (especially), ORD, and LAX...the current JL NRT destinations that have first class...ORD and LAX not seeing HND service on JL metal.
 
c933103
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:48 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Guillaume787 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:

The fleet plan has to be for more 787's. 2 787 don't make sense and JAL usually does rational things except maybe flying to Brazil.


Why is JAL flying to Brazil not rational? Brazil is home to the largest Japanese population outside Japan. There are approximately 1.6 million Japanese-Brazilians living in São Paulo.


It's too long without a stop, and one does not want to transit via the USA if one doesn't have to. (JL used to fly NRT-JFK-GRU and NRT-JFK-GIG.) To that end, JL lets AM handle that traffic, as JL codeshares with AM to MEX, although it also codeshares on JJ on JFK-GRU. But even more important, would it be suitable for a high-J carrier like JL to fly even a one-stop service with 5th freedom rights? No JL long-haul plane has more than 245 seats, and some have just 161 seats. JL would have a hard time filling the J cabin.

As for Zipair, I would not be surprised if it took all of the NRT long-haul, with 9-abreast seating in Y there as opposed to 8-abreast seating on mainline Dreamliners. However, JL absolutely would need B789s on the network as there would be a need to maintain F to at least JFK (especially), ORD, and LAX...the current JL NRT destinations that have first class...ORD and LAX not seeing HND service on JL metal.

That would be against the prospect of keeping NRT at a transit airport
Say NO to Hong Kong police's cooperation with criminal organizations like triad.
 
ITSTours
Posts: 375
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:07 am

Press release from JAL. ZIPAIR confirmed.
http://press.jal.co.jp/ja/release/201903/005096.html

Image
 
User001
Posts: 899
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:52 am

That press release also confirms the first 2 routes are Bangkok and Seoul.
 
lutfi
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:57 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I think that LCC is a relative term in Japan.
Don't expect Norwegian-style cheap fares.
This is just meant to put some dots in Europe. I see AMS, DUS, MXP, FCO as potential destinations but on less than daily frequencies.
Those destinations where a flight makes sense but not with a low density B787 and not daily.
A small J class and a high density Y class and even Barcelona 3 weekly starts making sense.

2 aircraft is a bit ridiculous though.
At least 5 aircraft for launch is desirable, otherwise one goes tech and what now?


True - domestic Japan flights have always been on LCC model compared to US or Europe, which is why LCC have been less successful bacause JAL/ANA domestic costs are already vert low. 777-300 with 500+ seats with no inflight service apart from a cup of tea/ water.

(many a-netters don't realise that the domestic operations of JAL/ ANA are very, very different to international. ANA even uses different IT systems, because no need to be IATA compliant on domestic flights) The main domestic competition are trains, which are a better product & so usually more expensive than flying. Heck - it is still possible to fly domestically without a name on the boarding pass/ ticket if you are part of a group tour
 
c933103
Posts: 3793
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:31 am

They really mentioned ".zip" as one of the reason why they decided to name the airline zipair.
And, if they are naming the airlines after Tokyo, does that mean they won't fly long haul routes out of other Japanese airports in the future?
Say NO to Hong Kong police's cooperation with criminal organizations like triad.
 
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OA940
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:44 am

downdata wrote:
Oh dear, i can see this working out real well for JAL. Long haul and LCC just dont go together.


Yes. Scoot, Jetstar, Air Transat, Air Canada Rouge, TUI, Thomas Cook, Air Asia X all seem to be doing very bad.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
FCAA321
Posts: 42
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:55 am

OA940 wrote:
downdata wrote:
Oh dear, i can see this working out real well for JAL. Long haul and LCC just dont go together.


Yes. Scoot, Jetstar, Air Transat, Air Canada Rouge, TUI, Thomas Cook, Air Asia X all seem to be doing very bad.


I think you’ll find that TUI and Thomas Cook in the UK are not low cost carriers.

There seems to be a big lapse of people’s knowledge between the three different types. Scheduled, Low Cost and then we have the holiday airlines. TUI being the worlds biggest holiday airline! You may call it charter and cling to the past, but a holiday airline is exactly that..
 
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Pudelhund
Posts: 187
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:07 am

OA940 wrote:
downdata wrote:
Oh dear, i can see this working out real well for JAL. Long haul and LCC just dont go together.


Yes. Scoot, Jetstar, Air Transat, Air Canada Rouge, TUI, Thomas Cook, Air Asia X all seem to be doing very bad.


The Asian ones barely do any real long haul flights. Then you have an LCC that only does a small number of long haul and a bunch of holiday airlines that also mostly don’t do long haul.
 
c933103
Posts: 3793
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:08 am

FCAA321 wrote:
OA940 wrote:
downdata wrote:
Oh dear, i can see this working out real well for JAL. Long haul and LCC just dont go together.


Yes. Scoot, Jetstar, Air Transat, Air Canada Rouge, TUI, Thomas Cook, Air Asia X all seem to be doing very bad.


I think you’ll find that TUI and Thomas Cook in the UK are not low cost carriers.

There seems to be a big lapse of people’s knowledge between the three different types. Scheduled, Low Cost and then we have the holiday airlines. TUI being the worlds biggest holiday airline! You may call it charter and cling to the past, but a holiday airline is exactly that..

my understanding is that, "holiday airlines" was just a name for airlines that use cost efficient way to bring people to leisure destination, for airlines created before the name "LCC" was coined, hence they're so named for the lack of a better name to describe their operations?
Say NO to Hong Kong police's cooperation with criminal organizations like triad.
 
c933103
Posts: 3793
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:10 am

Pudelhund wrote:
OA940 wrote:
downdata wrote:
Oh dear, i can see this working out real well for JAL. Long haul and LCC just dont go together.


Yes. Scoot, Jetstar, Air Transat, Air Canada Rouge, TUI, Thomas Cook, Air Asia X all seem to be doing very bad.


The Asian ones barely do any real long haul flights. Then you have an LCC that only does a small number of long haul and a bunch of holiday airlines that also mostly don’t do long haul.

What are "real" long haul, when we are now talking about a new Asian LCC?
Say NO to Hong Kong police's cooperation with criminal organizations like triad.
 
downdata
Posts: 552
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:38 am

Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:24 pm

ITSTours wrote:
Press release from JAL. ZIPAIR confirmed.
http://press.jal.co.jp/ja/release/201903/005096.html

Image


Ok. Dat logo though. Are they really serious with their efforts? This is legitimately a 5 mins mspaint job and that's being generous.

For starters, they shouldnt be using a free preset font... https://befonts.com/cradley.html

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