ANA787
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ZIPair Tokyo eyeing NRT-Honolulu and Portland

Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:01 pm

Article in Japanese.

I'm surprised PDX-NRT wouldn't be flow by parent JAL instead. Would ZIPair passengers still be allowed to connect to JAL Alaska partner AS at PDX?


http://a.msn.com/00/ja-jp/BBX8NWu?ocid=se
 
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RWA380
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Re: ZIPair Tokyo eyeing NRT-Honolulu and Portland

Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:12 pm

Wow, liked this part of the article, google translated:

"Portland's most powerful reason

 From the very beginning, Zip Air has had the view that the Pacific line will be a foreign-affiliated full-service carrier. I was enthusiastic.

 The aim is the US West Coast. The point of choice is Japanese airports, destinations that capture the demand of Asian VFR (visiting friends and relatives), and LCCs instead of crowded airports. In order to maximize the equipment utilization rate, which is the basis of the LCC business, operating at a congested airport will cause delays and disadvantages. If it is an LCC cluster airport, there is a model and the airport side know-how is also good.

 Los Angeles and San Francisco are the usual roads, but Los Angeles will have Haneda international slots in the spring of 2008, and ANA, JAL, Delta Airlines, American Airlines, and United Airlines will have flights from Haneda.

 It is Portland that has become the most powerful from such a judgment. Delta is the only direct flight from Japan (currently Narita to Portland, and Haneda to Portland, Delta single line after March 29, 20).

 Portland's attraction is that it offers nature in addition to urban tourism such as fancy restaurants and cutting-edge select shops. Northwest beaches are also popular with Americans and are often featured in the “city rankings for living” in the United States. Moreover, Oregon, where Portland is located, has a consumption tax of “0%”.

 It is also described as “the most creative city in the United States”. This is because more than 1,000 high-tech companies, mainly Intel, are gathered together and are called “Silicon Forest”. It is also known for sportswear Nike and the headquarters in Colombia.

 Portland International Airport has also won the first place in the US Travel Magazine “Travel + Leisure Magazine” as “The Most Comfortable Airport in the United States”. It is one of the base airports of LCC Southwest Airlines, and JAL partner Alaska Airlines is one of the hubs. When an airline enters service at a new location, partners can rely on building a local ground handling system."

I & others in the Oregon thread have speculated (as you know of course) than JL would jump in eventually. I really do not think anyone thought, this is how it would happen, but it makes some sense. I am unfamiliar with ZIPair, do they offer a premium cabin on their 787-8's?
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737MAX7
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Re: ZIPair Tokyo eyeing NRT-Honolulu and Portland

Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:33 pm

RWA380 wrote:
Wow, liked this part of the article, google translated:

"Portland's most powerful reason

 From the very beginning, Zip Air has had the view that the Pacific line will be a foreign-affiliated full-service carrier. I was enthusiastic.

 The aim is the US West Coast. The point of choice is Japanese airports, destinations that capture the demand of Asian VFR (visiting friends and relatives), and LCCs instead of crowded airports. In order to maximize the equipment utilization rate, which is the basis of the LCC business, operating at a congested airport will cause delays and disadvantages. If it is an LCC cluster airport, there is a model and the airport side know-how is also good.

 Los Angeles and San Francisco are the usual roads, but Los Angeles will have Haneda international slots in the spring of 2008, and ANA, JAL, Delta Airlines, American Airlines, and United Airlines will have flights from Haneda.

 It is Portland that has become the most powerful from such a judgment. Delta is the only direct flight from Japan (currently Narita to Portland, and Haneda to Portland, Delta single line after March 29, 20).

 Portland's attraction is that it offers nature in addition to urban tourism such as fancy restaurants and cutting-edge select shops. Northwest beaches are also popular with Americans and are often featured in the “city rankings for living” in the United States. Moreover, Oregon, where Portland is located, has a consumption tax of “0%”.

 It is also described as “the most creative city in the United States”. This is because more than 1,000 high-tech companies, mainly Intel, are gathered together and are called “Silicon Forest”. It is also known for sportswear Nike and the headquarters in Colombia.

 Portland International Airport has also won the first place in the US Travel Magazine “Travel + Leisure Magazine” as “The Most Comfortable Airport in the United States”. It is one of the base airports of LCC Southwest Airlines, and JAL partner Alaska Airlines is one of the hubs. When an airline enters service at a new location, partners can rely on building a local ground handling system."

I & others in the Oregon thread have speculated (as you know of course) than JL would jump in eventually. I really do not think anyone thought, this is how it would happen, but it makes some sense. I am unfamiliar with ZIPair, do they offer a premium cabin on their 787-8's?


Not sure I’d consider PDX a “base” for WN by any means
 
usflyer msp
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Re: ZIPair Tokyo eyeing NRT-Honolulu and Portland

Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:46 am

It's more like DL would be pretty easy to push off the PDX route as they have little feed at either end while ZipAir would have feed at both ends (assuming a relationship with AS)...
 
AlexBrewster03
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Re: ZIPair Tokyo eyeing NRT-Honolulu and Portland

Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:57 am

Can PDX support double daily Tokyo flights even? I’m assuming Delta definitely captures more of a premium market than Zipair will, and surely there is some loyalty to the Delta flight already...
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: ZIPair Tokyo eyeing NRT-Honolulu and Portland

Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:05 am

PDX really? There is no feed for Zipair at either end.
Zipair vs. Flying Honu on HNL?

Give me a break.
This has failure written all over it.
 
Ishrion
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Re: ZIPair Tokyo eyeing NRT-Honolulu and Portland

Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:22 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
PDX really? There is no feed for Zipair at either end.
Zipair vs. Flying Honu on HNL?

Give me a break.
This has failure written all over it.


There is no feed for Zipair at either end.


Are they not allowed to send passengers onto JL flights at NRT?

And I wouldn't be surprised to see them form some relationship with Alaska if they're planning PDX.
 
pdxav8r
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Re: ZIPair Tokyo eyeing NRT-Honolulu and Portland

Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:40 am

Ishrion wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
PDX really? There is no feed for Zipair at either end.
Zipair vs. Flying Honu on HNL?

Give me a break.
This has failure written all over it.


There is no feed for Zipair at either end.


Are they not allowed to send passengers onto JL flights at NRT?

And I wouldn't be surprised to see them form some relationship with Alaska if they're planning PDX.

Exactly what I was thinking. If they are part of the codeshare with AS, with the connectivity at NRT, it shouldn’t be a stretch. DL would maintain a lot of O&D, while Zipair would provide connectivity thru NRT to a ton of Asian second cities. DL is banking on O&D to HND, but It provides little connectivity to PDX passengers. NRT, and even ICN gives much more to the PDX’er not going specifically to Tokyo to many more markets. DL really has nothing to offer any passenger looking to go outside of HND.
 
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chepos
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Re: ZIPair Tokyo eyeing NRT-Honolulu and Portland

Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:51 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
PDX really? There is no feed for Zipair at either end.
Zipair vs. Flying Honu on HNL?

Give me a break.
This has failure written all over it.


First, JP-HI flights don’t need much feed, have you seen the plethora of flights between Japan and Honolulu.

Second, you do realize JAL owns ZIP?


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Fly the Flag!!!!
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: ZIPair Tokyo eyeing NRT-Honolulu and Portland

Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:21 pm

chepos wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
PDX really? There is no feed for Zipair at either end.
Zipair vs. Flying Honu on HNL?

Give me a break.
This has failure written all over it.


First, JP-HI flights don’t need much feed, have you seen the plethora of flights between Japan and Honolulu.

Second, you do realize JAL owns ZIP?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


First, I didn't write that HNL needs feed.
Second, do you realise that I am a JAL frequent flyer and I am writing about JAL more than anybody else around here?
 
Ishrion
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Re: ZIPair Tokyo eyeing NRT-Honolulu and Portland

Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:37 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
chepos wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
PDX really? There is no feed for Zipair at either end.
Zipair vs. Flying Honu on HNL?

Give me a break.
This has failure written all over it.


First, JP-HI flights don’t need much feed, have you seen the plethora of flights between Japan and Honolulu.

Second, you do realize JAL owns ZIP?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


First, I didn't write that HNL needs feed.
Second, do you realise that I am a JAL frequent flyer and I am writing about JAL more than anybody else around here?


So, you are aware then that ZIPAIR is JAL’s LCC and will likely feed passengers onto JAL flights at NRT?

And possibly forming a relationship with Alaska Airlines which will feed passengers through PDX?

For what it’s worth, ZIPAIR will be in a stronger position at PDX than Delta.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: ZIPair Tokyo eyeing NRT-Honolulu and Portland

Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:42 pm

pdxav8r wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
PDX really? There is no feed for Zipair at either end.
Zipair vs. Flying Honu on HNL?

Give me a break.
This has failure written all over it.


There is no feed for Zipair at either end.


Are they not allowed to send passengers onto JL flights at NRT?

And I wouldn't be surprised to see them form some relationship with Alaska if they're planning PDX.

Exactly what I was thinking. If they are part of the codeshare with AS, with the connectivity at NRT, it shouldn’t be a stretch. DL would maintain a lot of O&D, while Zipair would provide connectivity thru NRT to a ton of Asian second cities. DL is banking on O&D to HND, but It provides little connectivity to PDX passengers. NRT, and even ICN gives much more to the PDX’er not going specifically to Tokyo to many more markets. DL really has nothing to offer any passenger looking to go outside of HND.


The problem that you guys are not taking into account is that feed has to be organised around banks, in order to benefit from seamless connections.
When you cooperate with an airline like AS that focusses on domestic point to point travel, you don't have the benefits that you have flying into a AA hub where you can fly in and out of a long haul bank and get the most out of connections.

So yes, Zipair may connect on some AS flights in PDX, but you have more options and frequencies out of SEA with JL and JL has the option to upgrade to larger equipment if they want to.

The same situation in NRT, where at best a Zipair flight from PDX can connect to JL's evening wave to Asia, 5-6 flights at best, but what's the point of offering most the trip on lowcost and the other part in premium?

This is not enough to be called feed.
To fill a B787 into a smaller airport like PDX, you need 15-20 feed flights at both ends, each contributing 1-15 pax on average.
 
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chepos
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JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:50 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
pdxav8r wrote:
Ishrion wrote:



Are they not allowed to send passengers onto JL flights at NRT?

And I wouldn't be surprised to see them form some relationship with Alaska if they're planning PDX.

Exactly what I was thinking. If they are part of the codeshare with AS, with the connectivity at NRT, it shouldn’t be a stretch. DL would maintain a lot of O&D, while Zipair would provide connectivity thru NRT to a ton of Asian second cities. DL is banking on O&D to HND, but It provides little connectivity to PDX passengers. NRT, and even ICN gives much more to the PDX’er not going specifically to Tokyo to many more markets. DL really has nothing to offer any passenger looking to go outside of HND.


The problem that you guys are not taking into account is that feed has to be organised around banks, in order to benefit from seamless connections.
When you cooperate with an airline like AS that focusses on domestic point to point travel, you don't have the benefits that you have flying into a AA hub where you can fly in and out of a long haul bank and get the most out of connections.

So yes, Zipair may connect on some AS flights in PDX, but you have more options and frequencies out of SEA with JL and JL has the option to upgrade to larger equipment if they want to.

The same situation in NRT, where at best a Zipair flight from PDX can connect to JL's evening wave to Asia, 5-6 flights at best, but what's the point of offering most the trip on lowcost and the other part in premium?

This is not enough to be called feed.
To fill a B787 into a smaller airport like PDX, you need 15-20 feed flights at both ends, each contributing 1-15 pax on average.


So what meaningful feed does DL have on the HND/NRT end for their PDX flight? And what meaningful feed do they have at PDX? Since you claim PDX-Tokyo needs feed on both ends to be able to work.



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Waterbomber2
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:47 pm

chepos wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
pdxav8r wrote:
Exactly what I was thinking. If they are part of the codeshare with AS, with the connectivity at NRT, it shouldn’t be a stretch. DL would maintain a lot of O&D, while Zipair would provide connectivity thru NRT to a ton of Asian second cities. DL is banking on O&D to HND, but It provides little connectivity to PDX passengers. NRT, and even ICN gives much more to the PDX’er not going specifically to Tokyo to many more markets. DL really has nothing to offer any passenger looking to go outside of HND.


The problem that you guys are not taking into account is that feed has to be organised around banks, in order to benefit from seamless connections.
When you cooperate with an airline like AS that focusses on domestic point to point travel, you don't have the benefits that you have flying into a AA hub where you can fly in and out of a long haul bank and get the most out of connections.

So yes, Zipair may connect on some AS flights in PDX, but you have more options and frequencies out of SEA with JL and JL has the option to upgrade to larger equipment if they want to.

The same situation in NRT, where at best a Zipair flight from PDX can connect to JL's evening wave to Asia, 5-6 flights at best, but what's the point of offering most the trip on lowcost and the other part in premium?

This is not enough to be called feed.
To fill a B787 into a smaller airport like PDX, you need 15-20 feed flights at both ends, each contributing 1-15 pax on average.


So what meaningful feed does DL have on the HND/NRT end for their PDX flight? And what meaningful feed do they have at PDX? Since you claim PDX-Tokyo needs feed on both ends to be able to work.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Isn't DL getting subsidies to operate this route and AMS?

In any case, this route is saturated by DL, it's not a nameless airline that is going to come and dethrone DL.

It would make more sense for Zipair to use its limited resources wisely to operate routes with decent yield leisure O&D and perhaps less than daily frequencies such as LAS, SFO (+HND) , CDG(+HND), MXP, FCO, VCE, AMS, BRU, BCN and perhaps even give MCO a two weekly try.

If Zipair can't align a selection of destinations that are bucket list cities for Japanese, they have no chance of success.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:27 pm

One of the JAL investor documents few months back had a little insight about ZIP.

Basically they were pitching ZIP as better serving existing market segment where JAL with its config is mismatched.
More specifically ZIP would provide the group with additional leisure capacity on existing popular markets - with BKK the given example. The group believes with ZIP in the mix on the BKK route they can better meet lower segment demand.
The document made it sound like ZIP was more a compliment for existing JAL routes, than a product that would go launch all new markets on its own.
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jbpdx
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:39 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
chepos wrote:

So what meaningful feed does DL have on the HND/NRT end for their PDX flight? And what meaningful feed do they have at PDX? Since you claim PDX-Tokyo needs feed on both ends to be able to work.





Isn't DL getting subsidies to operate this route and AMS?


Delta does not receive any subsidies or incentives for operating any routes at PDX.
Last edited by jbpdx on Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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theasianguy
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Re: JAL longhaul LCC = ZIPAIR

Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:40 pm

I could see ZIP replacing JAL on their service to YVR and SAN
 
Ishrion
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ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:16 am

https://www.aviationwire.jp/archives/192168

Seriously?

ZIPAIR's new 787-8 features the JAMCO business class... but without personal entertainment screens.

Business Class:
Image

Economy Class (No PTVs) of course
Image

Since there is no personal monitor, a table and tablet holder, a power outlet, and a USB terminal for charging are provided in all seats. The outlet and the USB terminal are integrated, with the front row being the seat and the other seats being installed in the lower left of the front seat.


That's gonna be one fun flight if they launch NRT-PDX/HNL...
 
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RWA380
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Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:21 am

The aircraft is capable, even at a 50% increase in seats vs a typical JL 787-8, with ZG offering only 18-J & 272-Y seats, no W class. The cost must be lower if this is not supposed to interfere with JL. The carrier expects you have a tablet or at least a phone, with your own content. One of the ways they can cut costs, also saving the fuel without the weight of the system is a real savings. It's consistent with what we knew about this fledgling airline, I hope to see them at PDX, racing other carriers for the title of first scheduled 787 service here.
Last edited by RWA380 on Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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KFLLCFII
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Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:25 am

Ishrion wrote:
https://www.aviationwire.jp/archives/192168

Seriously?


What's the problem? I can bring my own device, but I can't bring my own lie-flat seat.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
Ishrion
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Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:30 am

KFLLCFII wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
https://www.aviationwire.jp/archives/192168

Seriously?


What's the problem? I can bring my own device, but I can't bring my own lie-flat seat.


Honestly I guess I had my expectations too high.

Yes, it's a LCC aiming to cut costs and maximize profit, but this took me by surprise, especially the fact that they included lie-flat seats without PTVs. If they planned this, I would've expected recliner seats for the premium cabin.
 
Virtual737
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Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:30 am

KFLLCFII wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
https://www.aviationwire.jp/archives/192168

Seriously?


What's the problem? I can bring my own device, but I can't bring my own lie-flat seat.


The problem is that now you HAVE to bring your own device. I probably wouldn't fly them in J because I work on a laptop, which means I would have to bring that AND a tablet (phones are too small for general viewing IMHO). That's 2 devices that need power, 2 that need connecting to WIFI, 2 that I have to unpack / repack every time I go to the bathroom etc.

It also means you have no electronic entertainment during initial climb / a good part of decent depending on when they force you to pack away all your electronics.

Clearly it's no issue for some people. For me it could well be a deciding factor on choosing that airline or not.
 
Blerg
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Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:33 am

Didn't AA or some other US carrier try to push this 'bring your own device' only to backtrack and to keep on introducing IFE? I think it was on some narrowbody fleet.
 
Ishrion
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Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:37 am

Blerg wrote:
Didn't AA or some other US carrier try to push this 'bring your own device' only to backtrack and to keep on introducing IFE? I think it was on some narrowbody fleet.


AA's promoting BYOD for shorter/narrowbody flights while their long-haul fleet will continue to feature PTVs (excluding 763/752s which are phasing out).
 
ben175
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Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:41 am

Honestly this would make complete sense if they also had a few iPads or tablets to borrow for J class pax, like VA on their 738s.
 
chewybacca
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Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:54 am

True lie-flat seats on an LCC? That’s surprising but remarkable. Even D7 can only manage an angled lie-flat. It’ll be interesting to see how they price their business class then.

If their business class pricing is on par with the likes of JQ, TR or D7 (or even a 10% premium on their competitors) then this is a winner I reckon. Only wish they eventually do Australia runs (although JQ might have something to say about that...).

No (free) PTV is on par with most other LCCs especially in Asia. Even in business, they usually provide tablets so no big loss.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:18 am

Virtual737 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
https://www.aviationwire.jp/archives/192168

Seriously?


What's the problem? I can bring my own device, but I can't bring my own lie-flat seat.


The problem is that now you HAVE to bring your own device. I probably wouldn't fly them in J because I work on a laptop, which means I would have to bring that AND a tablet (phones are too small for general viewing IMHO). That's 2 devices that need power, 2 that need connecting to WIFI, 2 that I have to unpack / repack every time I go to the bathroom etc.

It also means you have no electronic entertainment during initial climb / a good part of decent depending on when they force you to pack away all your electronics.

Clearly it's no issue for some people. For me it could well be a deciding factor on choosing that airline or not.


You don’t HAVE to do anything. You can survive without electronic stimulation for a few minutes during climb and descent. Tablets are generally allowed in all phases of flight and should have sufficient battery to last at least an hour. Which is the maximum you would be without power in normal circumstances.

J is for getting work done or sleeping, entertainment forms a much smaller part of the overall package. The lack of embedded entertainment is an inconvenience. Hardly a disaster. It might not be the product for you, which is fine there are plenty of options providing IFE in all cabins.

For me the value of J is space, a lie-flat seat. I often being my own content and sleep for the majority of the flight. But each to their own.
 
juliuswong
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Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:22 am

Thai AirAsia X new A339neo Premium cabin also does not offer PTV.

http://wajahbali.com/?img=https%3A%2F%2 ... Walton.jpg

However they do offer tablet loaded with movies for rent. You need to understand LCC is all about cutting out the frills to keep the price low, PTV is optional. I know of someone taking sleeping pills the moment the aircraft hits cruising altitude, sleep till cabin crew call for landing......
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
Virtual737
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Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:24 am

juliuswong wrote:
You need to understand LCC is all about cutting out the frills to keep the price low, PTV is optional. I know of someone taking sleeping pills the moment the aircraft hits cruising altitude, sleep till cabin crew call for landing......


So why have what looks like an otherwise superb J product at all? If it is all about cutting out the frills then there is no need for J and no need for lie flat.
 
Ishrion
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Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:41 am

juliuswong wrote:
Thai AirAsia X new A339neo Premium cabin also does not offer PTV.

http://wajahbali.com/?img=https%3A%2F%2 ... Walton.jpg

However they do offer tablet loaded with movies for rent. You need to understand LCC is all about cutting out the frills to keep the price low, PTV is optional. I know of someone taking sleeping pills the moment the aircraft hits cruising altitude, sleep till cabin crew call for landing......


In contrast, those A339's premium class seat looks to be angled while ZIPAIR is using the same seat KLM uses for its new business class and Air Europa's new business class.

And from what I'm seeing, there will be no tablet, even in ZIPAIR's J. It looks like there will only be Wi-Fi unless they haven't revealed all the details.
 
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Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:57 am

Virtual737 wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
You need to understand LCC is all about cutting out the frills to keep the price low, PTV is optional. I know of someone taking sleeping pills the moment the aircraft hits cruising altitude, sleep till cabin crew call for landing......


So why have what looks like an otherwise superb J product at all? If it is all about cutting out the frills then there is no need for J and no need for lie flat.

So if someone wants to be comfortable, then they must also be forced to have a PTV?

Let me guess...You work for one of the car manufacturers who forces customers to have full infotainment system to get a sunroof. :wink2:
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
Virtual737
Posts: 673
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:03 am

KFLLCFII wrote:
So if someone wants to be comfortable, then they must also be forced to have a PTV?


You're mixing a forced negative with a forced positive.

KFLLCFII wrote:
Let me guess...You work for one of the car manufacturers who forces customers to have full infotainment system to get a sunroof. :wink2:


Damn. Busted.
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3517
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:11 am

Virtual737 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
So if someone wants to be comfortable, then they must also be forced to have a PTV?


You're mixing a forced negative with a forced positive.


"Forced negative" is in the eye of the beholder...For many of us, it's a positive to pay a lower average ticket price for something we do want (lie-flat) without having to subsidize the cost of something we don't want (PTV when we can bring our own).

You're the one that's mixing what can be positive for what must be negative.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
Virtual737
Posts: 673
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:17 am

KFLLCFII wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
So if someone wants to be comfortable, then they must also be forced to have a PTV?


You're mixing a forced negative with a forced positive.


"Forced negative" is in the eye of the beholder...For many of us, it's a positive to pay a lower average ticket price for something we do want (lie-flat) without having to subsidize the cost of something we don't want (PTV when we can bring our own).

You're the one that's mixing what can be positive for what must be negative.


I give up, but on your behalf I will petition them to remove the seats altogether. After all, you can take your own bed.
 
Blerg
Posts: 2878
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:23 am

KFLLCFII wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
So if someone wants to be comfortable, then they must also be forced to have a PTV?


You're mixing a forced negative with a forced positive.


"Forced negative" is in the eye of the beholder...For many of us, it's a positive to pay a lower average ticket price for something we do want (lie-flat) without having to subsidize the cost of something we don't want (PTV when we can bring our own).

You're the one that's mixing what can be positive for what must be negative.


And what happens when those LCCs that are saving on comfort and perks increase prices? What do we do then? In many places you have these LCCs pushing out airlines with better products only to increase prices once they have a dominant position. LCC long-haul carriers have almost always failed and that's because people are willing to pay for a better service on longer flights.
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 684
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:27 am

Up until just a couple years ago, UA flew 744s across the Pacific Ocean without PTVs. I don't remember hearing how it was a disaster for passengers.
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3517
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:29 am

Blerg wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:

You're mixing a forced negative with a forced positive.


"Forced negative" is in the eye of the beholder...For many of us, it's a positive to pay a lower average ticket price for something we do want (lie-flat) without having to subsidize the cost of something we don't want (PTV when we can bring our own).

You're the one that's mixing what can be positive for what must be negative.


And what happens when those LCCs that are saving on comfort and perks increase prices? What do we do then? In many places you have these LCCs pushing out airlines with better products only to increase prices once they have a dominant position.


How about...make sure to live in a large community with an airport that offers far more service than any one LLC can provide. :wink2:
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
Blerg
Posts: 2878
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:32 am

KFLLCFII wrote:
Blerg wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:

"Forced negative" is in the eye of the beholder...For many of us, it's a positive to pay a lower average ticket price for something we do want (lie-flat) without having to subsidize the cost of something we don't want (PTV when we can bring our own).

You're the one that's mixing what can be positive for what must be negative.


And what happens when those LCCs that are saving on comfort and perks increase prices? What do we do then? In many places you have these LCCs pushing out airlines with better products only to increase prices once they have a dominant position.


How about...make sure to live in a large community with an airport that offers far more service than any one LLC can provide. :wink2:


What a stupid comment. Equally so I could tell you to get a better job so that you can afford flying on a legacy.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 673
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:33 am

Ziyulu wrote:
Up until just a couple years ago, UA flew 744s across the Pacific Ocean without PTVs. I don't remember hearing how it was a disaster for passengers.


So why did they add them?

As an aside, ZIPAIR's first destination (according to Wikipedia which is always correct) is NRT > BKK. I live an hour away from BKK and my wife has been nagging me for at least a year to take the family to Japan. I haven't flown non-J in some time and, due to the lack of PTVs and the inherent need to take at least 3 or 4 devices pre-loaded with content on board, I would not consider ZIPAIR.

A poster above who is more in the know than ZIPAIR themselves has already stated that ZIPAIR wouldn't give a toss about it, in which case, why should I?
 
ITSTours
Posts: 521
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:39 am

Ziyulu wrote:
Up until just a couple years ago, UA flew 744s across the Pacific Ocean without PTVs. I don't remember hearing how it was a disaster for passengers.


It was a disaster. Indeed. I avoided it at all cost.
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3517
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:08 am

Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:43 am

Blerg wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
Blerg wrote:

And what happens when those LCCs that are saving on comfort and perks increase prices? What do we do then? In many places you have these LCCs pushing out airlines with better products only to increase prices once they have a dominant position.


How about...make sure to live in a large community with an airport that offers far more service than any one LLC can provide. :wink2:


What a stupid comment. Equally so I could tell you to get a better job so that you can afford flying on a legacy.

And I could tell you that saving money on a service not needed is saving money on a service not needed, no matter how much one earns...And I can also tell you that legacies tend not to try as hard for my business anyway (which I would have no problem affording regardless), and I am usually happy to oblige. :wink2:
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
seb76
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 5:02 pm

Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:43 am

Most of the times, I see people in J working or watching movies/series on their own tablet or computer although there is a rather large screen in the seat in front of them. I like to know where we are on the moving map, but other than that, I barely use the embedded systems. Everyone has a tablet nowadays and the common streaming platforms let you easily keep a bit of contents offline on your device.
Between the weight of the PTVs, the wiring, the storage servers, the remote controls, etc... the airline can probably save a lot on dead weight and maintenance by removing those systems. I value a lie flat seat, punctuality and the quality of the food wayh more than the movies catalog of the plane.
 
olle
Posts: 1391
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:50 am

PTV will become a very short lived thing ;-) with netflix you anyway want to bring your own device....

We now go stockholm frankfurt sao paolo santiago today with a 9 year old. Ipad saves our lifes and nerves!
 
Virtual737
Posts: 673
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:52 am

seb76 wrote:
Most of the times, I see people in J working or watching movies/series on their own tablet or computer although there is a rather large screen in the seat in front of them. I like to know where we are on the moving map, but other than that, I barely use the embedded systems. Everyone has a tablet nowadays and the common streaming platforms let you easily keep a bit of contents offline on your device.
Between the weight of the PTVs, the wiring, the storage servers, the remote controls, etc... the airline can probably save a lot on dead weight and maintenance by removing those systems. I value a lie flat seat, punctuality and the quality of the food wayh more than the movies catalog of the plane.


Which airlines / routes were these?

Remembering the last 12 months in J and only counting mid to long haul, I can think of:

2 MH segments
2 PR segments
4 QR segments

and on every one of those the majority of people were sleeping or watching the PTV. I was more often than not among a small minority using a laptop, and i also had the PTV on.

Anyway, the seats shown in the opening post might well be finding their way onto a LCCs J class, but that J class (apart from the lack of PTVs) is WAY different than I would have expected. I do not want to have to hold a tablet while in a J seat and, while reclined anything near flat, the tables typically impede my legs / hips and so I have them stowed. Having a tablet down near the ottoman would make it a terrible viewing experience, hence a strong preference for PTVs.
 
JustSomeDood
Posts: 436
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:05 am

Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:06 pm

I have no problem with seats not including PTV as it can reasonably be expected Pax will have their own phones/tablets/laptops to look at in J. But the seat should then include appropriate phone/tablet holders so that said passenger doesn't have to hold their phone/tablet up all the time, especially in a lie-flat position. Holding a iPad overhead for 2 hours just to watch a movie should not be necessary for the premium prices long-haul J would fetch even in a LCC.
 
konkret
Posts: 319
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:26 pm

Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:09 pm

eamondzhang wrote:

Seriously they're a LCC to begin with. How many LCCs have PTV especially those flying long hauls?



Norwegian, Scoot, Jetstar, flydubai, Eurowings, Level, flynas...

To turn your question around - how many LCCs flying long haul with a premium cabin don’t have it?
 
Kno
Posts: 407
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:08 pm

Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:28 pm

I try to avoid any flight over 3 hours without AVOD like the plague. Bringing your own device for entertainment means I have to hand select and download hours of content in advance and watch it on my tiny iPhone screen. Most streaming services don’t let you download to laptop.

How many people really have a tablet that they bring on planes?

Ziyulu wrote:
Up until just a couple years ago, UA flew 744s across the Pacific Ocean without PTVs. I don't remember hearing how it was a disaster for passengers.


I do
Last edited by Kno on Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
olle
Posts: 1391
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:39 pm

For me an usb charger is more important. I also want to have a charged phone and ipad on arrival.
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 9792
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:42 pm

[threeid][/threeid]
Ishrion wrote:
https://www.aviationwire.jp/archives/192168

Seriously?

ZIPAIR's new 787-8 features the JAMCO business class... but without personal entertainment screens.

Business Class:
Image

Economy Class (No PTVs) of course
Image

Since there is no personal monitor, a table and tablet holder, a power outlet, and a USB terminal for charging are provided in all seats. The outlet and the USB terminal are integrated, with the front row being the seat and the other seats being installed in the lower left of the front seat.


That's gonna be one fun flight if they launch NRT-PDX/HNL...

I’d be surprised if the cost of an IFE is more than $2 per passenger/flight. Including the weight cost. They should have just charged $6.
 
ewt340
Posts: 936
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: ZIPAIR's 787-8 Features Lie-Flat Seats But No PTVs

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:49 pm

It would be CHEAPER to hands out iPad with movies to the small number of Business class passengers on each flights rather than installing expensive PTVs.

Smart move.

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