Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15730
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:04 pm

zeke wrote:
ExpatVet wrote:
zeke wrote:
I simply cannot believe the UK or US did not run a nuclear sub over the area in the month after the accident and know where the ULB was.


Ok, but which bit of the 230,000 square miles of search area would you have sent it to? That's more than twice the size of the United Kingdom.

Just to explain metaphorically, if you've got a submarine listening for a ping in London, you won't hear it if the plane is in Manchester.



A nuclear sub could search an area of 100 sq nm per hour (20 kts speed 5 nm wide) at a submerged depths 1500 ft below the surface thermal layer with a highly sensitive towed sonar array. It could cover the area of the size of the UK in 655 hours, or just over 27 days without the need to surface. The ULB are guaranteed minimum 30 days transmission.


A search like this isn't done with SSNs or SSBNs that can't dive to the depths necessary, but rather with manned bathyscaphes or unmanned ROVs.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
User avatar
southwest1675
Posts: 1489
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:03 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:05 pm

Robert Ballard, the guy who found the Titanic, should look for MH370.
Herb Kelleher 1931-2019
 
zanl188
Posts: 3788
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:06 pm

At some point in the future humankind will initiate a program to map the ocean floor. Probably with robotic submersibles powered by ???. Then we’ll know.
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1804
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:29 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
PhilMcCrackin wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
I don't think there's any point putting more resources into this. My personal theory is that the captain was planning to fly somewhere like Diego Garcia as a protest and thought that messing with the pressurization would allow him to knock everyone else unconscious so that he could do what he wanted. But either his oxygen mask didn't work or he didn't put it on properly and he knocked himself out as well.


I don't agree with your theory, but I do agree this isn't worth putting any more resources into. The bodies are long since gone, so you won't be able to determine a cause of death off those. The airplane likely ended up in a million pieces, so your best hope is to find the FDR and hope it hasn't been damaged by the impact or the 6 years it's spent in the ocean. Only then would you be able to tell what happened in the cockpit. The CVR likely won't be of any value, unless someone was alive in the cockpit during the final two hours of the flight.

My opinion: it's pilot suicide. He decompressed the airplane as soon as he left Malaysia ATC, everyone died from oxygen deprivation, and the plane flew on until it ran out of fuel and crashed. He set the airplane up to fly to the most desolate area on Earth in order to cover up what he did(and did a pretty good job of it).


Wouldn't the captain have had to murder the FO and any relief pilots in order to carry that out? I don't think they would just sit there while he depressurized the aircraft. I'm not saying your theory is wrong. We know the captain was a really weird and troubled person. Why he was allowed to continue flying is quite worrying.


My understanding is that he just waited until the co-pilot went to the toilet and then flipped a switch. The "Time of Useful Consciousness" at 35,000 ft is 30 secs to 1 minute, which is the last altitude sent by the aircraft before the transponder was switched off. I think he probably opened the outflow valve and switched off the transponder at the same time. Then all he would have to do is wait 1 minute and everyone would fall asleep. However, if he wasn't fast enough getting his mask on or he ran out of oxygen, then he would have lost consciousness as well.
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1804
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:33 pm

This whole mystery is solved by the captain waiting for the co-pilot to go to the toilet and then pressing 3 switches:

Cockpit door: locked
Transponder: off
Outflow valve: open
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15100
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:32 pm

EA CO AS wrote:

A search like this isn't done with SSNs or SSBNs that can't dive to the depths necessary, but rather with manned bathyscaphes or unmanned ROVs.


That is not what I was saying, get a sub to hear the ULB from within their normal operating depths for location, the recovery would be by a conventional surface salvage vessel. I was not suggesting a nuclear submarine could dive to 15,000 ft.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3922
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:05 pm

zanl188 wrote:
At some point in the future humankind will initiate a program to map the ocean floor. Probably with robotic submersibles powered by ???. Then we’ll know.

Assuming that by then the ocean currents won’t have covered the wreckage under layers of sand.
Attamottamotta!
 
Clackers
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:19 pm

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:18 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
This whole mystery is solved by the captain waiting for the co-pilot to go to the toilet and then pressing 3 switches:

Cockpit door: locked
Transponder: off
Outflow valve: open


What's an outflow valve?
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1804
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:47 pm

Clackers wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
This whole mystery is solved by the captain waiting for the co-pilot to go to the toilet and then pressing 3 switches:

Cockpit door: locked
Transponder: off
Outflow valve: open


What's an outflow valve?


When the aircraft cabin is pressurized, the high-pressure air comes from the engine and the outflow valve maintains the cabin altitude set by controlling how quickly the air flows out. If you open that valve fully, all of the pressurized air escapes.
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1804
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:54 pm

Clackers wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
This whole mystery is solved by the captain waiting for the co-pilot to go to the toilet and then pressing 3 switches:

Cockpit door: locked
Transponder: off
Outflow valve: open


What's an outflow valve?


You can see a picture of one here:

https://www.quora.com/What-device-is-us ... n-aircraft
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2497
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:02 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
This whole mystery is solved by the captain waiting for the co-pilot to go to the toilet and then pressing 3 switches:

Cockpit door: locked
Transponder: off
Outflow valve: open


Why does the aircraft manufacturer allow the plane to be depressurized at that altitude? It seems an all too convenient way for a suicidal pilot to commit mass murder.
 
747megatop
Posts: 1785
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:19 pm

glideslope900 wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
The Titanic was found 73 years after it sank. The necessary technology didn’t exist at the time. I think MH370 will be a similar story. Its discovery will no doubt make big news sometime in the future. Maybe even after we’re all gone.


I would concur with this view. The current technology is not sufficient to locate the aircraft. Perhaps within the next 20-30 years the necessary technology will be in place.

The technology exists currently to search the ocean depths

1) https://news.usni.org/2019/02/13/41119
2) https://www.saildrone.com/

What does not exist is the poliical will for taking ownership and funding it.

The biggest question is who will be willing to fund it and whether tax payers will really want their money spent on this.

And most imprtantly the $$$$$ initiative for locating it does not exist. Let's say that that there is new information that comes to light that 100 billion $$$s worth of diamonds were onboard then every treasure hunter and goverment on planet earth would be making a beeline to the SIO taking it from the remotest oceans of the world to the most congestest stretch of ocean on earth in a matter of hours!!
 
Charleytuna
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:13 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:50 pm

The vastness and remoteness of the search areas are almost incomprehensible. The depths and undersea topography make it worse. Those factors multiply the extremely high search costs. Good luck until you run out of funding.
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 3809
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:56 am

southwest1675 wrote:
Robert Ballard, the guy who found the Titanic, should look for MH370.

Thing is - they had a pretty good idea of where the Titanic was, not so with MH370. Ballard's good but he's not a magician
 
User avatar
Antaras
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:18 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:52 am

My friend worked on SGN's ATC Tower at that fatal moment. He told me that the whole team was freaking panic when MALAYSIAN 370 suddenly disappear on the radar screen, just few moment before it supposes to enter the South-Vietnam airspace. The ATC team won't never forget that moment.
Edit signature
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit.
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1804
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:23 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
This whole mystery is solved by the captain waiting for the co-pilot to go to the toilet and then pressing 3 switches:

Cockpit door: locked
Transponder: off
Outflow valve: open


Why does the aircraft manufacturer allow the plane to be depressurized at that altitude? It seems an all too convenient way for a suicidal pilot to commit mass murder.


If the system stops working it's necessary to be able to revert to manual control. If a suicidal pilot has the control column in his hands, what they do with the pressurization system is the least of your worries.
 
Caluma350
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:32 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:57 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
This whole mystery is solved by the captain waiting for the co-pilot to go to the toilet and then pressing 3 switches:

Cockpit door: locked
Transponder: off
Outflow valve: open


Why does the aircraft manufacturer allow the plane to be depressurized at that altitude? It seems an all too convenient way for a suicidal pilot to commit mass murder.


I believe the outflow valve is there in case of smoke / dangerous fumes in the cabin. However it would only be used with a emergency descent.
 
Clackers
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:19 pm

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:31 am

Has CCTV footage of passengers boarding MH370 at gate C1 ever been released, like from the departure gate area? Or would that be too macabre?
I have seen the captain and co-pilot walk through security scanners on CCTV but nothing about the regular passengers.
 
Clackers
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:19 pm

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:34 am

peterinlisbon wrote:
This whole mystery is solved by the captain waiting for the co-pilot to go to the toilet and then pressing 3 switches:

Cockpit door: locked
Transponder: off
Outflow valve: open


Do you think it happened in that order?

Wasnt there rumours of the co-pilot using his mobile phone to try to make a distress call from outside the locked cockpit? He wouldn't have had long even if he could get a signal.
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1804
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:40 pm

Clackers wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
This whole mystery is solved by the captain waiting for the co-pilot to go to the toilet and then pressing 3 switches:

Cockpit door: locked
Transponder: off
Outflow valve: open


Do you think it happened in that order?

Wasnt there rumours of the co-pilot using his mobile phone to try to make a distress call from outside the locked cockpit? He wouldn't have had long even if he could get a signal.


It wouldn't really matter which order he did it in, but it would be logical if you were going to start messing with the controls to lock the door first. I would assume as soon as the pressure changed and the oxygen masks dropped the co-pilot would come running back to see what was going on.

As far as calling from 35,000 ft, I didn't hear about that. I don't think you'd get a signal from that height but if someone switched on their phone or took it out of flight mode, maybe it would ping the towers trying to connect and that would leave some kind of digital record. But in any case they were only over land for a short time after they turned around and then went far out to sea.
 
User avatar
Erebus
Posts: 1164
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:40 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:59 pm

GZM1 wrote:
Whoever masterminded that, did a perfect job. And I don’t think it was the captain. The captain could have played a part but what? Korean 007 comes to mind. There are some similarities and also there are differences. Let’s say that the Russians were behind, it was their turn. And no, it will never be found, there is nothing left to find. That was their stroke of genius. Some day the world will know but through political means when none of us will be around to care...A masterpiece!


It wasn't the "perfect job". The aircraft still left a signal trail leading up to the approximate location of its final resting place. And bits of it washed up ashore confirming its fate. The "perfect job" would have concealed any such evidence.

petertenthije wrote:
zanl188 wrote:
At some point in the future humankind will initiate a program to map the ocean floor. Probably with robotic submersibles powered by ???. Then we’ll know.

Assuming that by then the ocean currents won’t have covered the wreckage under layers of sand.


The part of the ocean floor we are interested in doesn't have a lot of sediment accumulation going on. The search turned up a few shipwrecks of the 19th century.

I think it is more likely than not, that it will be found at some point. It is quite a high profile disappearance, and it will take someone adventurous to put together an expedition to find it.
 
hpff
Posts: 90
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:20 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:35 pm

If anyone is here who's actually an aviator, how likely would it be that you would use the toilet at the exact time you are about to switch from one major airspace to another?
 
Raptormodeller
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:51 pm

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:35 pm

Personally, I think the black boxes of MH370 will be found in our lifetime. The fact that they found AF447 and the stardust plane crash (by accident) is enough evidence for me. If we can go to the moon, land on Titan and find the Higgs I'm pretty sure someone or something will eventually find the bloody thing, or what's left of it anyway. Also, there's probably more left of it at the bottom of the ocean than people think. The Titanic is doing pretty well having spent over 100 years miles below the waves.
While I strongly support the idea of pilot suicide, why would the pilot fly towards the most desolate place on Earth or depressurise the cabin when he could simply and effectively crash the plane. I would much rather die quickly in a crash than from the lack of oxygen. Just look at the ordeal us climbers go through when we die from hypoxia at high altitude (RIP rob hall an co.) While sure deaths at high altitude are MUCH slower due to acclimatisation and hypothermia. The process of blacking out in under a minute is much more macabre in my opinion. Just look at no limits free divers. Maybe he thought it would be like going to sleep. I hope nobody suffered too much although that seems unlikely.
A380 A330 A318 A319 A320 A321 B737 B757 B767 B747 MD80 E185 E195 Q400 EF2000
AF BA QF SQ HOP LT AA BE
 
comet44
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:51 pm

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:30 pm

I have seen no mention here of the CAPTIO study:

http://mh370-captio.net/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk1CxO9XGyQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHFDYbwywkU

Certainly seems like a plausible scenario. Seeing nothing was found in the searched areas, maybe it is all elsewhere - as these folks think. They seem to think it's in a fairly small area; a search there might find it - or debunk their theory.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10633
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:33 pm

Raptormodeller wrote:
Personally, I think the black boxes of MH370 will be found in our lifetime. The fact that they found AF447 and the stardust plane crash (by accident) is enough evidence for me. If we can go to the moon, land on Titan and find the Higgs I'm pretty sure someone or something will eventually find the bloody thing, or what's left of it anyway. Also, there's probably more left of it at the bottom of the ocean than people think. The Titanic is doing pretty well having spent over 100 years miles below the waves.
While I strongly support the idea of pilot suicide, why would the pilot fly towards the most desolate place on Earth or depressurise the cabin when he could simply and effectively crash the plane. I would much rather die quickly in a crash than from the lack of oxygen. Just look at the ordeal us climbers go through when we die from hypoxia at high altitude (RIP rob hall an co.) While sure deaths at high altitude are MUCH slower due to acclimatisation and hypothermia. The process of blacking out in under a minute is much more macabre in my opinion. Just look at no limits free divers. Maybe he thought it would be like going to sleep. I hope nobody suffered too much although that seems unlikely.

Dying from the lack of oxygen is actually pretty painless as far as deaths go, with the added benefit of not having to stare at the ground rapidly approaching knowing you are about to die. If you want to kill a plane load of innocent passengers it is probably the most humane way.
 
buzzard302
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:06 pm

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:49 pm

For years and years, I said they would find it. I am starting to have doubts. Mostly because I do not believe they are truly mathematically accurate about the final crash location. Without that data, it is a needle in a haystack as others have said. Or just straight luck of running across it. And not too many parties are interested in spending a fortune on a search in unknown areas.
 
Clackers
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:19 pm

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:25 pm

I can remember the rumours of the plane landing in Iran or Afghanistan, and that the Chinese semiconductor employees on board were using the plane as a guinea pig for their new invisibility paint. :D

At the time, it was all interesting.

Now however, it seems 100% sure that the pilot just killed everyone on board.
 
RetiredWeasel
Posts: 804
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:03 pm

Raptormodeller wrote:
Personally, I think the black boxes of MH370 will be found in our lifetime. The fact that they found AF447 and the stardust plane crash (by accident) is enough evidence for me. If we can go to the moon, land on Titan and find the Higgs I'm pretty sure someone or something will eventually find the bloody thing, or what's left of it anyway. Also, there's probably more left of it at the bottom of the ocean than people think. The Titanic is doing pretty well having spent over 100 years miles below the waves.
While I strongly support the idea of pilot suicide, why would the pilot fly towards the most desolate place on Earth or depressurise the cabin when he could simply and effectively crash the plane. I would much rather die quickly in a crash than from the lack of oxygen. Just look at the ordeal us climbers go through when we die from hypoxia at high altitude (RIP rob hall an co.) While sure deaths at high altitude are MUCH slower due to acclimatisation and hypothermia. The process of blacking out in under a minute is much more macabre in my opinion. Just look at no limits free divers. Maybe he thought it would be like going to sleep. I hope nobody suffered too much although that seems unlikely.


Like most posts here, this is pure speculation...But if the cabin altitude rises over 14,000 feet, the O2 masks will deploy. The Boeings I flew had no way to prevent this from the cockpit. This would have prolonged the life of passengers who used them and the FA's may have gotten to the portable O2 bottles. However if the cabin altitude rose above 26,000 feet, then the body requires O2 under pressure (pressure breathing) which these masks don't do. This would shorten some the time of useful consciousness.

Further more, some posters said the simple opening up the outflow valves would result in depressurization which is true. But unless the packs were turned off also, the depressurization would take some time. Not sure how long.
 
Raptormodeller
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:51 pm

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:14 pm

Polot wrote:
Raptormodeller wrote:
Personally, I think the black boxes of MH370 will be found in our lifetime. The fact that they found AF447 and the stardust plane crash (by accident) is enough evidence for me. If we can go to the moon, land on Titan and find the Higgs I'm pretty sure someone or something will eventually find the bloody thing, or what's left of it anyway. Also, there's probably more left of it at the bottom of the ocean than people think. The Titanic is doing pretty well having spent over 100 years miles below the waves.
While I strongly support the idea of pilot suicide, why would the pilot fly towards the most desolate place on Earth or depressurise the cabin when he could simply and effectively crash the plane. I would much rather die quickly in a crash than from the lack of oxygen. Just look at the ordeal us climbers go through when we die from hypoxia at high altitude (RIP rob hall an co.) While sure deaths at high altitude are MUCH slower due to acclimatisation and hypothermia. The process of blacking out in under a minute is much more macabre in my opinion. Just look at no limits free divers. Maybe he thought it would be like going to sleep. I hope nobody suffered too much although that seems unlikely.

Dying from the lack of oxygen is actually pretty painless as far as deaths go, with the added benefit of not having to stare at the ground rapidly approaching knowing you are about to die. If you want to kill a plane load of innocent passengers it is probably the most humane way.

I hope you're right for their sake. That's just my opinion based on what happens to climbers at very high altitude and free diving accidents such as Audrey Mestre. Although using Free diving as a comparison for black outs was probably not the best in hindsight considering the pressure the body has to sustain and not really representative (at all) of what passengers would experience in a rapidly depressurising cabin.
I'm not a doctor, I'm a climber with limited experience, that's just my 2 cents.
A380 A330 A318 A319 A320 A321 B737 B757 B767 B747 MD80 E185 E195 Q400 EF2000
AF BA QF SQ HOP LT AA BE
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10633
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:20 pm

Raptormodeller wrote:
Polot wrote:
Raptormodeller wrote:
Personally, I think the black boxes of MH370 will be found in our lifetime. The fact that they found AF447 and the stardust plane crash (by accident) is enough evidence for me. If we can go to the moon, land on Titan and find the Higgs I'm pretty sure someone or something will eventually find the bloody thing, or what's left of it anyway. Also, there's probably more left of it at the bottom of the ocean than people think. The Titanic is doing pretty well having spent over 100 years miles below the waves.
While I strongly support the idea of pilot suicide, why would the pilot fly towards the most desolate place on Earth or depressurise the cabin when he could simply and effectively crash the plane. I would much rather die quickly in a crash than from the lack of oxygen. Just look at the ordeal us climbers go through when we die from hypoxia at high altitude (RIP rob hall an co.) While sure deaths at high altitude are MUCH slower due to acclimatisation and hypothermia. The process of blacking out in under a minute is much more macabre in my opinion. Just look at no limits free divers. Maybe he thought it would be like going to sleep. I hope nobody suffered too much although that seems unlikely.

Dying from the lack of oxygen is actually pretty painless as far as deaths go, with the added benefit of not having to stare at the ground rapidly approaching knowing you are about to die. If you want to kill a plane load of innocent passengers it is probably the most humane way.

I hope you're right for their sake. That's just my opinion based on what happens to climbers at very high altitude and free diving accidents such as Audrey Mestre. Although using Free diving as a comparison for black outs was probably not the best in hindsight considering the pressure the body has to sustain and not really representative (at all) of what passengers would experience in a rapidly depressurising cabin.
I'm not a doctor, I'm a climber with limited experience, that's just my 2 cents.


Diving is a completely different beast because in addition to getting no oxygen you can’t expel the carbon dioxide from your lungs. That build up of carbon dioxide is actually what causes the physical discomfort you feel you hold your breath too long or are choking, not the lack of oxygen.

With high altitude climbing you have exposure elements at play not present in an aircraft cabin.

You’d be amaze how normal you can feel (maybe not 100% well, but having symptoms you have dealt with in normal everyday life) up until the moment you pass out in a low oxygen environment.
 
Raptormodeller
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:51 pm

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:34 pm

Polot wrote:
Raptormodeller wrote:
Polot wrote:
Dying from the lack of oxygen is actually pretty painless as far as deaths go, with the added benefit of not having to stare at the ground rapidly approaching knowing you are about to die. If you want to kill a plane load of innocent passengers it is probably the most humane way.

I hope you're right for their sake. That's just my opinion based on what happens to climbers at very high altitude and free diving accidents such as Audrey Mestre. Although using Free diving as a comparison for black outs was probably not the best in hindsight considering the pressure the body has to sustain and not really representative (at all) of what passengers would experience in a rapidly depressurising cabin.
I'm not a doctor, I'm a climber with limited experience, that's just my 2 cents.


Diving is a completely different beast because in addition to getting no oxygen you can’t expel the carbon dioxide from your lungs. That build up of carbon dioxide is actually what causes the physical discomfort you feel you hold your breath too long, not the lack of oxygen.

With high altitude climbing you have exposure elements at play not present in an aircraft cabin.

You’d be amaze how normal you can feel (maybe not 100% well, but having symptoms you have dealt with in normal everyday life) up until the moment you pass out in a low oxygen environment.

You are right about diving, that's my mistake for using it as an example, but from experience, altitude sickness is the worst, and I only got a very light case of it once. The exposure to cold temperatures can and sometimes does slow down the whole 'dying' process if you can call it that. I just fail to see how a rapid depressurisation and a rapid drop in oxygen could be painless, when your ears will suddenly and probably violently pop, and the sudden onset of a lack of focus/concentration coupled with a an enormous headache before a blackout. The consolation here is they blacked out. Not very nice.
A380 A330 A318 A319 A320 A321 B737 B757 B767 B747 MD80 E185 E195 Q400 EF2000
AF BA QF SQ HOP LT AA BE
 
CheckNorris
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:41 pm

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:53 pm

Raptormodeller wrote:
While I strongly support the idea of pilot suicide, why would the pilot fly towards the most desolate place on Earth or depressurise the cabin when he could simply and effectively crash the plane..


Well, it's like asking why he had to kill 238 people along with him when he could've just put a bullet in his head, jump off a bridge or simply hung himself. In case this was indeed a deliberate inside job, you're looking for a spark of sanity in an obviously insane mind. What would you say about people how commit suicide using a chainsaw? That there are more human ways to take one's own life? True but rather pointless and irrelevant...

While we might eventually find the wreckage, we might never know what made him do it or how exactly it was done. Just my two cents...
 
User avatar
CitizenJustin
Posts: 669
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:12 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:52 am

747megatop wrote:
glideslope900 wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
The Titanic was found 73 years after it sank. The necessary technology didn’t exist at the time. I think MH370 will be a similar story. Its discovery will no doubt make big news sometime in the future. Maybe even after we’re all gone.


I would concur with this view. The current technology is not sufficient to locate the aircraft. Perhaps within the next 20-30 years the necessary technology will be in place.

The technology exists currently to search the ocean depths

1) https://news.usni.org/2019/02/13/41119
2) https://www.saildrone.com/

What does not exist is the poliical will for taking ownership and funding it.

The biggest question is who will be willing to fund it and whether tax payers will really want their money spent on this.

And most imprtantly the $$$$$ initiative for locating it does not exist. Let's say that that there is new information that comes to light that 100 billion $$$s worth of diamonds were onboard then every treasure hunter and goverment on planet earth would be making a beeline to the SIO taking it from the remotest oceans of the world to the most congestest stretch of ocean on earth in a matter of hours!!



Didn’t they contract with the most qualified people for the job? They searched thousands of square miles and nothing.
 
747megatop
Posts: 1785
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:35 am

CitizenJustin wrote:
747megatop wrote:
glideslope900 wrote:

I would concur with this view. The current technology is not sufficient to locate the aircraft. Perhaps within the next 20-30 years the necessary technology will be in place.

The technology exists currently to search the ocean depths

1) https://news.usni.org/2019/02/13/41119
2) https://www.saildrone.com/

What does not exist is the poliical will for taking ownership and funding it.

The biggest question is who will be willing to fund it and whether tax payers will really want their money spent on this.

And most imprtantly the $$$$$ initiative for locating it does not exist. Let's say that that there is new information that comes to light that 100 billion $$$s worth of diamonds were onboard then every treasure hunter and goverment on planet earth would be making a beeline to the SIO taking it from the remotest oceans of the world to the most congestest stretch of ocean on earth in a matter of hours!!



Didn’t they contract with the most qualified people for the job? They searched thousands of square miles and nothing.

It is going to take a pain staking fine tooth comb sifting through large volumes of data encompassing a large search area. The searches that have concluded that the resources have not been enough. Now the question that people may ask is what is going to be gained by resuming the search.
 
User avatar
CitizenJustin
Posts: 669
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:12 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:29 pm

747megatop wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
747megatop wrote:
The technology exists currently to search the ocean depths

1) https://news.usni.org/2019/02/13/41119
2) https://www.saildrone.com/

What does not exist is the poliical will for taking ownership and funding it.

The biggest question is who will be willing to fund it and whether tax payers will really want their money spent on this.

And most imprtantly the $$$$$ initiative for locating it does not exist. Let's say that that there is new information that comes to light that 100 billion $$$s worth of diamonds were onboard then every treasure hunter and goverment on planet earth would be making a beeline to the SIO taking it from the remotest oceans of the world to the most congestest stretch of ocean on earth in a matter of hours!!



Didn’t they contract with the most qualified people for the job? They searched thousands of square miles and nothing.

It is going to take a pain staking fine tooth comb sifting through large volumes of data encompassing a large search area. The searches that have concluded that the resources have not been enough. Now the question that people may ask is what is going to be gained by resuming the search.


That’s a very good question. I’d prefer the search to continue myself, but I can necessarily justify it.
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2107
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:57 pm

Raptormodeller wrote:
While I strongly support the idea of pilot suicide, why would the pilot fly towards the most desolate place on Earth or depressurise the cabin when he could simply and effectively crash the plane. I would much rather die quickly in a crash than from the lack of oxygen.


He wanted to make a political statement. It is believed that his actions were politically motivated - on the day of the flight, his political master Anwar Ibrahim was found guilty of sodomy and was sentenced to jail. So he may have wanted to humiliate the then Malaysian government who he knows won't be able to handle such a huge global crisis.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
Starfuryt
Posts: 192
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:58 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:24 pm

A bit off topic but, can we rename this thread to just a general MH370 discussion. Since it's going to be 6 years in a couple of weeks so 5 years in the title isn't very relevant anymore.


TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Raptormodeller wrote:
While I strongly support the idea of pilot suicide, why would the pilot fly towards the most desolate place on Earth or depressurise the cabin when he could simply and effectively crash the plane. I would much rather die quickly in a crash than from the lack of oxygen.


He wanted to make a political statement. It is believed that his actions were politically motivated - on the day of the flight, his political master Anwar Ibrahim was found guilty of sodomy and was sentenced to jail. So he may have wanted to humiliate the then Malaysian government who he knows won't be able to handle such a huge global crisis.


Personally I never bought the whole pilot suicide theory. I think it's the easiest explanation and it lets people put responsibility on something outside of their control. That being that I've yet to see a better explanation so I guess we'll just go with that.
 
pune
Posts: 392
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:05 am

Aptivaboy wrote:
Someone get that Paul Allen ship that’s locating all of the lost WWII wrecks on it.


That's a totally different can of worms, unfortunately. When the R/V Petrel goes out looking for wrecks, they at least know within a few miles of where the target is. Even in the case of Kaga and Akagi, which the Petrel recently located near Midway, they had fragmentary Japanese position reports. It still required a fair amount of time, but at least they knew where to start looking. US ships like Juneau, Wasp and Lexington had positions which were exceptionally well logged before they sank, making the search much, much easier. Plus, a World War Two warship is a much larger target than a T7.

I like the ocean drone technology as a potential solution moving forward, The US Navy and DARPA were working on this in earnest several years ago, DARPA going so far as to allow civilians to download a game, so to speak, or sim of the proposed technology and play with it, seeing how it might be used. My poor underpowered Core 2 PC couldn't quite run it, but it looked intriguing.


Is that "game" around or abandonware, if not abandonware, care to share link please.
 
pune
Posts: 392
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:15 am

spinotter wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
No, extremely unlikely it will ever be found.


Amelia Earhart and her airplane have never been found with certainty, isn't that true? In her case, a small plane but in a much smaller area of search? I can imagine that better detection methods may someday be developed, totally automated and running all the time to map the bottoms of all large bodies of water. Why not if the technology is there? Is anyone still seriously looking for MH370?


If there is free energy, and even if there, there has to be some other motivation to scan the ocean floor. From a safety perspective, I would say finding where techtonic plates have friction with each other under the ocean floor or such things would have more of an impact. But this is if we do not let climate change destroy us and are still in one piece. I am sure there may be other interesting questions and perhaps much larger questions which may be answered if deep sea photography and imaging becomes something which can be very cheap.

One another interesting scientific area which I believe would benefit a lot is underwater currents as well as making maps of underwater ecosystems. I believe there is much we still don't know either of the ocean floor or the ecosystem between that and the surface but that will be a different motivation requiring perhaps different skills altogether.
 
pune
Posts: 392
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:16 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
I don't think there's any point putting more resources into this. My personal theory is that the captain was planning to fly somewhere like Diego Garcia as a protest and thought that messing with the pressurization would allow him to knock everyone else unconscious so that he could do what he wanted. But either his oxygen mask didn't work or he didn't put it on properly and he knocked himself out as well.


No more resources is a correct response.

One does have to ask “what the heck came over this pilot” who had the career “dream job” many can only dream of in this forum.


I can't even dream as I'm overweight and do not have 20/20 vision.
 
pune
Posts: 392
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:30 am

zeke wrote:
PhilMcCrackin wrote:
The Indian Ocean is a desolate place even for the military because there just isn't anything of consequence down there and thus little need to operate there other than transiting through to somewhere else.


Sounds like a wonderful place to park an ballistic missile submarine. One of the largest submarine communications facilities in the world is on the west coast of Australia, to the west is Diego Garcia.


Sri Lanka comes to mind as many international backbone OFC sit on Sri Lanka as an interchange point. India gets quite a bit of capacity both via Kerala as well as Chennai, quite a few of which come from Sri Lanka, while others escaping the Sri Lankan interchanging point and directly going into substations owned by India as backup.

At the same time I find it hard to believe that Indian ocean is desolate, I would say far from it. Aren't lot of world goods use Sri Lanka both as interchange point or/and used by staging ara. Anyways, this is academic talk unless something is found, it would be trying to piece of hay in a big football field or an enourmous farm currently :(
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13278
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:19 am

petertenthije wrote:
Assuming that by then the ocean currents won’t have covered the wreckage under layers of sand.

...assuming that there is "wreckage" to be covered.

This thing is probably in a zillion pieces, spread all over the Pacific basin by now.

Hell, look at SR111 wreckage; and THAT was only at 55m.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1804
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:29 am

pune wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
I don't think there's any point putting more resources into this. My personal theory is that the captain was planning to fly somewhere like Diego Garcia as a protest and thought that messing with the pressurization would allow him to knock everyone else unconscious so that he could do what he wanted. But either his oxygen mask didn't work or he didn't put it on properly and he knocked himself out as well.


No more resources is a correct response.

One does have to ask “what the heck came over this pilot” who had the career “dream job” many can only dream of in this forum.


I can't even dream as I'm overweight and do not have 20/20 vision.


I remember thinking the same thing when that Germanwings plane crashed due to pilot suicide. That was a young guy with his life ahead of him and a fantastic career. But I've also done flight training and I know that some of our instructors who were professional pilots didn't really love the job in the end - it became routine/monotonous to them and in the end it was just a job. For other people it's really a passion, but what's your passion today could become something that you get tired of tomorrow, especially if you have to do it every day for a large portion of your life. I like driving, but only up to a point and I think flying is a lot more of a novelty but it can also get tiring if you do it a lot.

In one class some of the younger guys were asking an old ex-Iberia captain if he missed being in the cockpit and his reply was something along the lines of "there's the sunrise and there's the damn sunrise over the Atlantic with the sun shining in your face at 4am". I don't think he missed it. It made me think and I believe that although it's an exciting job with lots of benefits, it does have its downsides (such as taking you away from your family, etc).

Probably for a person that is already unstable it's the kind of job which could make them worse. If you believed that getting this dream job was going to solve all of your problems and then you get the job and the problems are still there, for example, now you longer have the hope that getting a better job will solve your problems. Just like a lot of really rich and famous people have committed suicide.
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 698
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:08 am

pune wrote:
zeke wrote:
PhilMcCrackin wrote:
The Indian Ocean is a desolate place even for the military because there just isn't anything of consequence down there and thus little need to operate there other than transiting through to somewhere else.


Sounds like a wonderful place to park an ballistic missile submarine. One of the largest submarine communications facilities in the world is on the west coast of Australia, to the west is Diego Garcia.


[...]

At the same time I find it hard to believe that Indian ocean is desolate, I would say far from it.[...]


Oh it is, every Ocean (apart from say the Mediterranean) is absolutely "empty". As freight ships take the shortest route (if the weather allows it) there are only narrow corridors that are actually used the vast rest of the ocean is just no mans land. As visible on this image:

https://transportgeography.org/?page_id=2067

There are only three medium routes crossing the Indian Ocean, while three main ones cover only the most northern part. How much area do this "water high ways" cover? 0.001%? Even less?

Further down (the second map) is an interactive map showing ships on the oceans. If you go to the Indian Ocean it is practically empty:

https://www.canadiangeographic.ca/article/map-lets-you-visualize-shipping-traffic-around-world
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1847
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:33 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Raptormodeller wrote:
While I strongly support the idea of pilot suicide, why would the pilot fly towards the most desolate place on Earth or depressurise the cabin when he could simply and effectively crash the plane. I would much rather die quickly in a crash than from the lack of oxygen.


He wanted to make a political statement. It is believed that his actions were politically motivated - on the day of the flight, his political master Anwar Ibrahim was found guilty of sodomy and was sentenced to jail. So he may have wanted to humiliate the then Malaysian government who he knows won't be able to handle such a huge global crisis.


People like you keep saying this like it a) is plausible and b) could possibly work.

Look at the "results" - ignoring the idiocy of the suggestion - there was almost zero political fallout on the government of the time, and the only fallout there was was about the confused handling in the first few days. That's it.

There is NOTHING to back up your constant claim on this.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2107
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:49 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Raptormodeller wrote:
While I strongly support the idea of pilot suicide, why would the pilot fly towards the most desolate place on Earth or depressurise the cabin when he could simply and effectively crash the plane. I would much rather die quickly in a crash than from the lack of oxygen.


He wanted to make a political statement. It is believed that his actions were politically motivated - on the day of the flight, his political master Anwar Ibrahim was found guilty of sodomy and was sentenced to jail. So he may have wanted to humiliate the then Malaysian government who he knows won't be able to handle such a huge global crisis.


People like you keep saying this like it a) is plausible and b) could possibly work.

Look at the "results" - ignoring the idiocy of the suggestion - there was almost zero political fallout on the government of the time, and the only fallout there was was about the confused handling in the first few days. That's it.

There is NOTHING to back up your constant claim on this.


Uh, you do realize that I was in the "there reasonable doubt the pilot did it" camp from way back then? What I'm presenting is a theory of what he may have intended to happen.

Also, the political effects is actually much more acute than people overseas realize.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
PhilMcCrackin
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:54 pm

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:43 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
Assuming that by then the ocean currents won’t have covered the wreckage under layers of sand.

...assuming that there is "wreckage" to be covered.

This thing is probably in a zillion pieces, spread all over the Pacific basin by now.

Hell, look at SR111 wreckage; and THAT was only at 55m.


Exactly, and that's assuming the undersea area where the wreckage settled is flat and not mountainous. That's what took them so long to find the boxes for AF447 and they knew where the wreckage was.
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1847
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:33 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Uh, you do realize that I was in the "there reasonable doubt the pilot did it" camp from way back then? What I'm presenting is a theory of what he may have intended to happen.


My apologies, I thought you were a reasonable-doubter - but when you posted that theory like it's definitely what happened, it confused me.

Also, the political effects is actually much more acute than people overseas realize.


It's not something I've ever read or heard about from my contacts or when I'm visiting... (By the way, how's it going with Mahathir's current machinations? ;) )
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 926
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: 5 Years Later, When Will They Find MH370?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:25 pm

Is that "game" around or abandonware, if not abandonware, care to share link please.


No, its long gone. We're talking 10+ years ago. But, you're starting to see the results of it with the US Navy's autonomous drone programs. I could see where searching for 370 would be a great way to test out the capabilities of these machines, even if done secretly so as to not disclose the technology too much. Just unleash a few in the search areas and come back a month later and pick them up, check the data and see if its there.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos