IPFreely
Posts: 2325
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:38 pm

B6Aviator wrote:
It's such a sad reality that B6 crew members would create or contribute to threads with the sole purpose of negatively disparaging the airline. No one is being held hostage and we are all free to leave at any time. I have traveled all over the world using the benefits of this little airline and appreciate the volunteer work they do in the communities. It's like going through a rough patch with your spouse and telling everyone at your place of business how horrible he/she is. Some things should be kept in house.

Working in Fort Lauderdale I have been able to build friendships with the great employees of NK, WN and many others. I would never talk down and wish for the downfall of other carriers, we can compete and see everyone prosper.


Any organization with 20,000+ employees (airline or not) is bound to have a few bad apples. We’ve all probably had co-workers who prefer to complain instead of working and constantly feel entitled to more than they get. The key for companies is to weed as many as possible out in the hiring process. Then identify and eliminate the ones who get through as fast as possible. But this is easier (and more important) in small businesses. For companies with thousands of employees, and unionized employees, it’s a challenge.

The actions of one bad apple do not, however, affect B6 in any meaningful way. They continue to perform well, dominate at JFK and BOS, and have a great product with Mint that all the other airlines are struggling to compete with. Keep up the good work.
 
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dennypayne
Posts: 239
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Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:46 pm

winginit wrote:

Bingo.

I'm just going to leave this here with regards to B6's "situation":

Image
Source

Goodness me how will they survive! :roll:


Far too many people on this board ignore monetary realities when discussing any number of subjects. Just from recent threads - "Oh the 777X only has x number of orders, it's a flop" - if the 777X makes money for Boeing, it doesn't matter how many are made. "It's stupid for BA to keep the A35J after ordering the 777X as well" - if the A35J makes money for BA in its' designated role, it doesn't matter how it looks to the naysayers. Same thing here. B6 is obviously making money - it's not in a "situation" and doesn't need to merge.

B6Aviator wrote:
It's such a sad reality that B6 crew members would create or contribute to threads with the sole purpose of negatively disparaging the airline. No one is being held hostage and we are all free to leave at any time. I have traveled all over the world using the benefits of this little airline and appreciate the volunteer work they do in the communities. It's like going through a rough patch with your spouse and telling everyone at your place of business how horrible he/she is. Some things should be kept in house.


I also wish we had less posters with obvious axes to grind here. Between the endless A vs B noise and fanboys for a given airline trashing other ones for nitpicky reasons, it's hard to find objective content anymore. I really do wish a.net would go back to paid membership for posting rights.

Can someone point me to a thread that details the fallout between Neeleman and JetBlue? I'm not aware of how that went down.
A300/310/319/320/321/332/333/343/380 AN24/28/38/148 AT72 B190
B717/722/732/3/4/5/7/8/9 742/744/752/753/762/763/764/772/773/788
CR2/7/9 D8S D9S D95 DHC2/3/7/8 D328 E110/120/135/140/145/170/175/190
F100 J31 L1011 L410 M11/80/90 RJ85 S340 SSJ100 T134/154 Y42
 
winginit
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Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:17 pm

dennypayne wrote:
Can someone point me to a thread that details the fallout between Neeleman and JetBlue? I'm not aware of how that went down.


Great Episode
 
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Super80Fan
Posts: 1515
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Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:36 pm

Runway28L wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
tphuang wrote:
[

B6 and AS are in the same boat. All they need to do is to wait out for the next recession and DL will start cutting back at SEA/BOS and all these years of build up to defend against DL will have just strengthened their position there and they will go back to having above average margins again.


Your sadly mistaken. what makes you so certain DL will pull out of SEA and BOS come the next recession? Hate to tell you but they aren't going anywhere. If anyone needs to be quaking in their boots its JetBlue. The next recession will see MINT planes turn back to all economy. JetBlue will undoubtedly suffer the most.

Lol.

Clearly you’ve never read any post on here indicating how financially successful Mint has been out of BOS, JFK, and FLL from data tphuang has kindly provided countless times.

These narratives about B6 have become out of control. It’s frustrating to see.
B6Aviator wrote:
People on this forum are legitimately hoping for the demise of JetBlue, it's a sad reality but the truth nonetheless. Go check any B6 related thread and you will see posts from the same cast of characters eagerly awaiting the JetBlue casket being lowered into the ground.

The airline just celebrated it's 19th anniversary and doesn't have six hundred airplanes in the fleet. Competing against the majors and ULCC's is tough but they've carved out a nice niche for themselves. I don't know what the future holds as far as M&A activity, but I fail to see what the big 3 gain other than paying billions/divesting slots just to eliminate a competitor.

The main perpetrators are A) Employees from other airlines. B) FFers of rival airlines. And C) Armchair CEOs who think they have enough credentials to run JetBlue.

I hate to say it, but it’s time to start cracking down on this nonsense.


Those are some interesting conspiracy theories. Truth be told, B6 is NOT healthy. They might act like it and look like it to the general public, but the only happy employees at the company are all at the NY HQ. The rest who make up the majority of the company are begging for a merger. There is no clear path forward, their fleet is aging, and morale is probably the lowest out of any airline in the US.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
winginit
Posts: 2542
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:48 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
Those are some interesting conspiracy theories. Truth be told, B6 is NOT healthy. They might act like it and look like it to the general public, but the only happy employees at the company are all at the NY HQ. The rest who make up the majority of the company are begging for a merger. There is no clear path forward, their fleet is aging, and morale is probably the lowest out of any airline in the US.


You'll need to state your definition of a 'healthy' company for us if you could. To be brutally honest, the most important stakeholder to corporations in this country are financial shareholders, and you'll find they often care little when it comes to employee happiness.

By most financial definitions (ie the ones that matter to shareholders and the board), B6 is a healthy company.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2325
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Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:56 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
their fleet is aging


JetBlue employees are unhappy because their fleet is aging? Really?

Average fleet age:
Alaska 8.3 years
JetBlue 10.1
American 10.7
Southwest 11.0
United 15.0
Delta 15.9

Source: airfleets.net
 
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Dieuwer
Posts: 1328
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Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:58 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
Runway28L wrote:
jumbojet wrote:

Your sadly mistaken. what makes you so certain DL will pull out of SEA and BOS come the next recession? Hate to tell you but they aren't going anywhere. If anyone needs to be quaking in their boots its JetBlue. The next recession will see MINT planes turn back to all economy. JetBlue will undoubtedly suffer the most.

Lol.

Clearly you’ve never read any post on here indicating how financially successful Mint has been out of BOS, JFK, and FLL from data tphuang has kindly provided countless times.

These narratives about B6 have become out of control. It’s frustrating to see.
B6Aviator wrote:
People on this forum are legitimately hoping for the demise of JetBlue, it's a sad reality but the truth nonetheless. Go check any B6 related thread and you will see posts from the same cast of characters eagerly awaiting the JetBlue casket being lowered into the ground.

The airline just celebrated it's 19th anniversary and doesn't have six hundred airplanes in the fleet. Competing against the majors and ULCC's is tough but they've carved out a nice niche for themselves. I don't know what the future holds as far as M&A activity, but I fail to see what the big 3 gain other than paying billions/divesting slots just to eliminate a competitor.

The main perpetrators are A) Employees from other airlines. B) FFers of rival airlines. And C) Armchair CEOs who think they have enough credentials to run JetBlue.

I hate to say it, but it’s time to start cracking down on this nonsense.


Those are some interesting conspiracy theories. Truth be told, B6 is NOT healthy. They might act like it and look like it to the general public, but the only happy employees at the company are all at the NY HQ. The rest who make up the majority of the company are begging for a merger. There is no clear path forward, their fleet is aging, and morale is probably the lowest out of any airline in the US.


Your own allegation is a conspiracy theory, unless you back up your claim with hard data. At a minimum, show us a poll that indicates that employees are unhappy and that they are "begging for a merger".
 
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BN727227Ultra
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Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:59 pm

questions wrote:
It’ll be a three way. B6-AS-HA.

The combined airline’s name will be jetHawaiian.

The marketing strategy will be to create a retro aviation hip vibe for the brand. A true premium experience will be offered to passengers flying in the F cabin including signature Lei Flat service replacing Mint. Simple, straight forward service with classy touches will be the hallmark in the main cabin.

All reference to Alaska Airlines will be dropped as the integration principle will be to adopt “the best of the three.” :tombstone:

The airlines headquarters will be moved to Los Angeles.

Strategic hubs will be located in BOS, JFK, FLL, SEA, LAX and HNL. Numerous focus cities will complement the network. jetHawaiian will fly across the US and to Europe and Asia Pacific.





You saw it here first. 28FEB19.


"Lei Flat" TMML. :lol:
 
airportlover
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Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:59 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
I think a lot of it is the frontline employees most all WANT to merge with the big 4 or Alaska. Who wants to do the same job for less pay and worse work rules. Oh and a tiny fraction of the profit sharing as the others while being told out of the other side of management's mouth that they must continue to clean the aircraft like janitors to help profit sharing.

United, WN, Alaska all are viable merger partners and those three would be allowed to acquire B6. United maybe iffy if the government thinks EWR and JFK are same market. If separate markets then United will stop at nothing to acquire B6. WN close second. Alaska happens if stuff hits the fan and with everyone floundering there is a equitable merge between two drowning coastal carriers.

There is one dark horse that I think people need to keep their eye on. David Neeleman himself. I listened to a recent interview with him and he still holds grudges and resentments on how he was treated in 2007. As he now is getting older and getting ready to lunch maybe his last airline, Moxy, something tells me he will use a successful Moxy to push him and his investor backers over the edge and do a hostile takeover of B6, and thus take back control of jetBlue that he still have a very emotional attachment to. Watch this one and mark my words.


I think United makes the most sense, but the NY thing is a serious problem. The combined airline would be too dominant and control two of the largest, nicest terminals in the region. However, United does want to get back into JFK and I’m confident they will somehow, even if it costs a lot of money. Delta could also actually make sense. Give up some slots at JFK and then go and control the Caribbean and Florida market from NYC. Maybe embark on an expansion project to connect T4 and T5. Also would give them a hub in Boston and more of a presence in South Florida, which would be beneficial for Delta.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 434
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Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:00 pm

winginit wrote:
To be brutally honest, the most important stakeholder to corporations in this country are financial shareholders, and you'll find they often care little when it comes to employee happiness.

By most financial definitions (ie the ones that matter to shareholders and the board), B6 is a healthy company.



They care little about employee happiness at their peril.

Look at the agonizing effort and money United is currently throwing at efforts to raise employee moral and change their thoroughly toxic front-line culture. One could only imagine how much more money United would make and how much they could dominate if they had SWA happy employees coupled with their global network and rich city hubs.
 
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Veigar
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Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:36 pm

airportlover wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
I think a lot of it is the frontline employees most all WANT to merge with the big 4 or Alaska. Who wants to do the same job for less pay and worse work rules. Oh and a tiny fraction of the profit sharing as the others while being told out of the other side of management's mouth that they must continue to clean the aircraft like janitors to help profit sharing.

United, WN, Alaska all are viable merger partners and those three would be allowed to acquire B6. United maybe iffy if the government thinks EWR and JFK are same market. If separate markets then United will stop at nothing to acquire B6. WN close second. Alaska happens if stuff hits the fan and with everyone floundering there is a equitable merge between two drowning coastal carriers.

There is one dark horse that I think people need to keep their eye on. David Neeleman himself. I listened to a recent interview with him and he still holds grudges and resentments on how he was treated in 2007. As he now is getting older and getting ready to lunch maybe his last airline, Moxy, something tells me he will use a successful Moxy to push him and his investor backers over the edge and do a hostile takeover of B6, and thus take back control of jetBlue that he still have a very emotional attachment to. Watch this one and mark my words.


I think United makes the most sense, but the NY thing is a serious problem. The combined airline would be too dominant and control two of the largest, nicest terminals in the region. However, United does want to get back into JFK and I’m confident they will somehow, even if it costs a lot of money. Delta could also actually make sense. Give up some slots at JFK and then go and control the Caribbean and Florida market from NYC. Maybe embark on an expansion project to connect T4 and T5. Also would give them a hub in Boston and more of a presence in South Florida, which would be beneficial for Delta.


I think United wouldn't happen even if B6 merging with someone was imminent.
 
TheLunchbox
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Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:39 pm

IPFreely wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
their fleet is aging


JetBlue employees are unhappy because their fleet is aging? Really?

Average fleet age:
Alaska 8.3 years
JetBlue 10.1
American 10.7
Southwest 11.0
United 15.0
Delta 15.9

Source: airfleets.net


Probably means the interiors which are slowly going through the refresh.
 
spacecadet
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Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:44 pm

There have been B6 merger rumors literally since day 1 of their operation (same is happening with Moxy right now). There's never anything behind them, just speculation based on nothing much.

I wouldn't put much thought to this myself. It may someday come to pass, or it may not, but just remember that even a broken clock is right twice a day. No one will have accurately predicted a merger if it happens; they will have just happened to guess right. They've guessed wrong all the other times.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
Blerg
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Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:55 pm

Why did Neelman leave B6?
 
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enilria
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Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:05 pm

Veigar wrote:
I have read time and time again that B6 is struggling and they will merge soon and whatnot. I have also heard people try to argue against it saying that B6 is completely fine. I want to know what's is actually going on. I do know they are not in an amazing spot, but aside from this, it gets shady for me. People say really bad things and really good thing about them, nothing is really consistent. Checked their stock price and it doesn't look very good but I don't really know how to judge from just this alone. Even IF they did merge with someone, who would be the most likely airline? Spirit? DL?



P.S. Would love a thread link that specifically talks about this recently; (as in B6 in 2019) if one has already been made. Apologize in advance. It's just I see a lot of overlapping discussion about this when the topic isn't exactly B6's health but rather something they are doing or not doing. Thanks.

I think I have some credibility here. They are doing fine. That's not what is driving this merger talk. The problem is breadth of product and their brand positioning. They have moved their brand further and further away from being an LCC. Being an LCC does not require customer loyalty to much of an extent. You just need to be cheap.

Being a legacy, which is more or less what they seem to want to be, requires customer loyalty and breadth of product is very important to get there. There is really no way for them to become much of anything in the West with this current brand positioning. They can't just charge low prices to break into the market because LGB proved that won't work and they don't really have the cost structure now to be trashing fares to burrow into the West. Plus, they don't have a hub anywhere close to the West, so they have very poor tools to make any of that happen.

Europe is a little different because BOS and JFK are logical departure points to Europe and there is no closer USA hub which gives them an advantage. Having said that, Europe has probably topped in terms of profit margins unless Norwegian stops operating which I don't expect. So, it's an opportunity which will occupy them for a few years, but it won't fully fix their breadth of product problem which is going to let DL peel away corporates particularly in BOS.

So, again they aren't in a death spiral, they just need a strategy change to take them to the next level. Their options are:
1) Expand to Europe which will propel growth for probably 4-5 years.
2) Merge with Alaska and fix the breadth of product problem they both have.
3) Do like F9 did and switch to a ULCC.

I suspect they will do #1 short-term and #2 long-term. Frankly, this whole post could be applied just as easily to AS. The situation is nearly identical.
 
winginit
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Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:37 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
winginit wrote:
To be brutally honest, the most important stakeholder to corporations in this country are financial shareholders, and you'll find they often care little when it comes to employee happiness.

By most financial definitions (ie the ones that matter to shareholders and the board), B6 is a healthy company.



They care little about employee happiness at their peril.

Look at the agonizing effort and money United is currently throwing at efforts to raise employee moral and change their thoroughly toxic front-line culture. One could only imagine how much more money United would make and how much they could dominate if they had SWA happy employees coupled with their global network and rich city hubs.


and yet even with all those unhappy employees, UAL stock has blown LUV out of the water especially this past year but even in the two years since Dr. Dao, which, for better or for worse, is all that matters to shareholders.
 
MR27122
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Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:42 pm

dennypayne wrote:
winginit wrote:

Can someone point me to a thread that details the fallout between Neeleman and JetBlue? I'm not aware of how that went down.


As for Neeleman, my perception/belief is that Neeleman's personal hubris/ego is what stokes any notion that he harbors some "logical" grudge vs. B6. Neeleman ought be lauded for founding/launching B6. JFK was a domestic ghost-town between International Arr/Dep banks w/ the exception of LAX & SFO. Basically, JFK was "stuck" in a pre-deregulation ops World w/ the exception of AA & DL domestic feed. Also, that "feed" circa Feb 2000 looked a lot like TWA & Pan Am---wait---AA basically is TW & DL is PA!

Neeleman seizes upon opportunity & launches a high-quality offering (IFE, Leather seats, new aircraft, etc). However, & somewhere embedded in the B6 mission-statement is "Bringing Civility Back to Air Travel". Neeleman deservedly enjoyed a fantastical "honeymoon" (6yrs?) and a horrific Valentine's:

https://nyti.ms/2lxt9ov

The law of "unintended consequences" bit Neeleman when he, as the face of B6, believed an ice-storm wouldn't impact his personal B6 "Founder" hot-streak. This single "meltdown" exposed how lacking B6 was in regards to "back-end" management (it could've been avoided) & front-line crisis response (it didn't exist). Furthermore...the "consequences" were that real-time social media streaming was just coming into vogue...hence the notoriety of the crisis, and ultimately, this crisis was a flash-point wherein the Passenger Rights "movement" gained significant traction...not much "Civility" occurred on that day or for many days thereafter. It basically exposed B6's most critical weakness...Neeleman's hubris of "JetBlue is all GO at JFK, while all the other airlines canceled their flights last night!!!" & B6 was utterly ill-equipped for when the public-eye turned negative & were clueless as to how to respond. Ultimately, Neeleman accepted full blame & began to advocate how "from this day forward...never again!!" & B6 introduced a "Bill of Rights" to it's pax's etc. Unfortunately for Neeleman his ego caught up w/ him & B6 had outgrown it & could dispose of him...and so it did. Perhaps Neeleman believes he deserved better or at least a chance at redemption...but it happened on his watch & at his direction & completely contradicted the Civility Back To Air Travel mantra.

Does Neeleman secretly detest B6's current management...Or...has sufficient time passed for him to accept his failings in regards to this specific instance that caused his undoing? No question Neeleman is to be praised as a uber successful "builder"---B6 & Azul. Yet gaining "entry" back into B6 via hostile means...NO. Gaining entry in 5 years after Moxy, perhaps flourishes, and a merger occurs...Yes, that is plausible. As for unhappy B6 employees who hide behind a keyboard & populate negativity in forums such as these...well, I suspect if Neeleman were to walk in as your "savior" tomorrow...he'd review the "books" & you'd be equally dissatisfied w/ how much of that change in Management you desire, resulted in no change at all.
 
winginit
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Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:43 pm

Blerg wrote:
Why did Neelman leave B6?


winginit wrote:
dennypayne wrote:
Can someone point me to a thread that details the fallout between Neeleman and JetBlue? I'm not aware of how that went down.


Great Episode
 
WkndWanderer
Posts: 263
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Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:45 pm

nine4nine wrote:
B6 isn’t going anywhere for quite awhile and deff not to UA or HA, AS or WN. Just stop with this nonsense.

WN- Fact is WN is strong in the mid west and west coast and that’s about it.


Or you know...BNA, BWI, DEN, Florida, and this small place called Texas...

nine4nine wrote:

AS- Can’t cut it out east. Cutting previous VX transcon frequencies left and right and cutting intra-coast flying out east. With a name like Alaska, the general public doesn’t think of LA,San Fran, San Diego etc....they think of icy Alaska and the cold gray northwest. They would not last out east especially hanging onto the AS name like they’d be stubborn to do. It’s dumb.


"Left and right" is pretty dramatic when they've added things like SJC-JFK, cut or seasonally cut the more leisure heavy stuff, and upgauged smaller Airbus equipment to 738/9's and 321's. VX only had a single beyond perimeter DCA flight and probably wouldn't have chosen DAL-East coast as it's first choice either if it had the beyond perimeter capabilities AS does.
 
tphuang
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Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:52 pm

jumbojet wrote:
tphuang wrote:
[

B6 and AS are in the same boat. All they need to do is to wait out for the next recession and DL will start cutting back at SEA/BOS and all these years of build up to defend against DL will have just strengthened their position there and they will go back to having above average margins again.


Your sadly mistaken. what makes you so certain DL will pull out of SEA and BOS come the next recession? Hate to tell you but they aren't going anywhere. If anyone needs to be quaking in their boots its JetBlue. The next recession will see MINT planes turn back to all economy. JetBlue will undoubtedly suffer the most.

On top of all of that, B6 is THE worst American airline when it comes their daily operations and on-time, or lack thereof, performance. Take today for example, more than 33% of JetBlues entire schedule is delayed! And its not even noon time yet..

I didn't say pull out. They will cut a lot of the underperforming routes. Big difference. If premium market suffers, you will see DL drop D1 on JFK-SAN/LAS and BOS-LAX, since they are getting killed on those markets. mint has already kicked DL out of MIA-LAX.
 
jonnyclam123
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 11:49 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:14 pm

I think there will be a merger with VC and all operations moved to SFB and DTW.
 
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Super80Fan
Posts: 1515
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Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:29 pm

IPFreely wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
their fleet is aging


JetBlue employees are unhappy because their fleet is aging? Really?

Average fleet age:
Alaska 8.3 years
JetBlue 10.1
American 10.7
Southwest 11.0
United 15.0
Delta 15.9

Source: airfleets.net


The problem is not the A321's, which are newer and they are continuing to get, it's not the E190's which will be leaving in the next 5-10 years and replaced by A220's, the problem is with their A320's. The A320 makes up the bulk of the B6 fleet/network and has an average age of 13.5 years old. They haven't received a new one since 2013. While they aren't ancient, they have a high amount of cycles because B6 uses and abuses them. They're eventually going to have to be retired and while B6 could possible work with a fleet of A220's and A321's, there are still markets that an A320 size aircraft would work in that the A220 is too little and the A321 is too much.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
SoCalFlyer
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:16 am

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:34 pm

Meanwhile Jetblue just sent out a corporate invite to a massive event they’re holding on 04/10 a few moments ago to everyone even the board of directors. They’re even throwing a big crew member after party, after the event. All the crew members are buzzing about this.
 
winginit
Posts: 2542
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Re: B6 Situation

Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:39 pm

SoCalFlyer wrote:
Meanwhile Jetblue just sent out a corporate invite to a massive event they’re holding on 04/10 a few moments ago to everyone even the board of directors. They’re even throwing a big crew member after party, after the event. All the crew members are buzzing about this.


Now that's interesting. TATL announcement finally? Is there a screenshot?
 
flyiguy
Posts: 979
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Re: B6 Situation

Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:02 am

nine4nine wrote:
B6 isn’t going anywhere for quite awhile and deff not to UA or HA, AS or WN. Just stop with this nonsense.

UA-already has dominance of EWR. JFK added would bring in a monopoly to the NYC area and violate anti-trust laws.

HA- ummmm I do t think this even merits and explanation.

WN- has very little following in the northeast. BOS and PHL buildups have been dismal failures. Even ATL is a shadow of what it started out with after the first official day of ops after AirTran. Fact is WN is strong in the mid west and west coast and that’s about it.

AS- Can’t cut it out east. Cutting previous VX transcon frequencies left and right and cutting intra-coast flying out east. With a name like Alaska, the general public doesn’t think of LA,San Fran, San Diego etc....they think of icy Alaska and the cold gray northwest. They would not last out east especially hanging onto the AS name like they’d be stubborn to do. It’s dumb.

Lastly the Moxy scenario. If anyone has ever looked up the deffinition it’s may be a telling sign of what this is about. I believe that Project Moxy is a Trojan horse that will allow Neeleman and his investors to takeover B6. A year and a half out from start and there’s not much to know since this was announced other than 2 stark similarities.

Both ”Moxy” and B6 order 60 frames each of A220 within 2 days of each other.

Neeleman says B6 and ”Moxy” will not have one competing route. Well it’s hard to compete aginast yourself. I think if you read some of the press releases there are subliminal messages that David is throwing out there. Perhaps “Project Moxy” is not only a buyback and reinvestment into B6 but a reinvention and rebirth of B6.



WN is big in the east as well! BWI has over 200 flights serving the Mid Atlantic. MCO, WN is the #1 carrier having over 1/3 of the market share. TPA WN is #1, ATL WN is #2 for obvious reasons there. I could go on...

FLY
The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
 
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pitbosflyer
Posts: 347
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:51 am

airportlover wrote:

Delta could also actually make sense. Give up some slots at JFK and then go and control the Caribbean and Florida market from NYC. Maybe embark on an expansion project to connect T4 and T5. Also would give them a hub in Boston and more of a presence in South Florida, which would be beneficial for Delta.


I don't think DL needs to buy B6 to have a BOS hub. They are already well on their way to that with the recent build up. Already they call it a focus City, and with them soon gaining all of terminal A they have more room to grow.
 
SoCalFlyer
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:16 am

Re: B6 Situation

Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:37 am

winginit wrote:
SoCalFlyer wrote:
Meanwhile Jetblue just sent out a corporate invite to a massive event they’re holding on 04/10 a few moments ago to everyone even the board of directors. They’re even throwing a big crew member after party, after the event. All the crew members are buzzing about this.


Now that's interesting. TATL announcement finally? Is there a screenshot?


I’m sort of new here so I don’t know how to post pictures. I’ve tried but essentially it’s a huge event.
 
mga707
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:52 am

Re: B6 Situation

Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:42 am

smflyer wrote:
I think F9 and B6 should merge, but maintain two separate brands. The real advantage to this deal would be to convert the F9 DEN hub into a JetBlue branded hub as its an excellent connection point and enough O&D business travelers to support the more "premium" JetBlue brand. The rest of the F9 focus cities should maintain the Frontier branding and ULCC product offering as that is a highly profitable business model. After building up DEN, then can then merge with AS and finally have a full coast to coast network offering the "premium" JetBlue product in markets that can support it and offering the Frontier product in markets that are more price sensitive. The JetBlue product would be very similar to the legacy airlines services and the Frontier product will be what it is currently. Get rid of the Alaska brand, but have AS manage the combined entity as they have the best leadership team of the three.


PeoplExpress tried something very similar to that when they acquired the original Frontier in 1985 and kept Frontier's DEN-hubbed operation separate from PE's EWR-hubbed system. It failed miserably. PE shut down Frontier in September 1986 and both were swallowed up by Lorenzo's Continental and merged into CO in February of '87.
 
tphuang
Posts: 2980
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:53 am

Super80Fan wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
their fleet is aging


JetBlue employees are unhappy because their fleet is aging? Really?

Average fleet age:
Alaska 8.3 years
JetBlue 10.1
American 10.7
Southwest 11.0
United 15.0
Delta 15.9

Source: airfleets.net


The problem is not the A321's, which are newer and they are continuing to get, it's not the E190's which will be leaving in the next 5-10 years and replaced by A220's, the problem is with their A320's. The A320 makes up the bulk of the B6 fleet/network and has an average age of 13.5 years old. They haven't received a new one since 2013. While they aren't ancient, they have a high amount of cycles because B6 uses and abuses them. They're eventually going to have to be retired and while B6 could possible work with a fleet of A220's and A321's, there are still markets that an A320 size aircraft would work in that the A220 is too little and the A321 is too much.


It doesn't make sense to retire just reconfigured aircraft too early. After the reconfig, the A320s will have adequate CASM for another 5 to 10 years. The replacements will be A220-500 when that comes out. A220 series is a perfectly replacement for what they have right now and have lower CASM than A320NEO. It doesn't make sense for them to take another A320. At which point, they will have most likely far and away the most passenger friendly fleet in the industry.

A220-100 115 seats?
A220-300 135-140 setas
A220-500 165 seats
A321 200 seats
Works pretty well.

SoCalFlyer wrote:
winginit wrote:
SoCalFlyer wrote:
Meanwhile Jetblue just sent out a corporate invite to a massive event they’re holding on 04/10 a few moments ago to everyone even the board of directors. They’re even throwing a big crew member after party, after the event. All the crew members are buzzing about this.


Now that's interesting. TATL announcement finally? Is there a screenshot?


I’m sort of new here so I don’t know how to post pictures. I’ve tried but essentially it’s a huge event.

after all the LHR tease in the End of year emails to crew members, this would seem to be the moment they finally make a real announcement. Makes sense to do it before the earning call so they get more press coverage. I can't think off the top of my head another announcement that's worth this kind of fanfare.
 
tphuang
Posts: 2980
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:58 am

mga707 wrote:
smflyer wrote:
I think F9 and B6 should merge, but maintain two separate brands. The real advantage to this deal would be to convert the F9 DEN hub into a JetBlue branded hub as its an excellent connection point and enough O&D business travelers to support the more "premium" JetBlue brand. The rest of the F9 focus cities should maintain the Frontier branding and ULCC product offering as that is a highly profitable business model. After building up DEN, then can then merge with AS and finally have a full coast to coast network offering the "premium" JetBlue product in markets that can support it and offering the Frontier product in markets that are more price sensitive. The JetBlue product would be very similar to the legacy airlines services and the Frontier product will be what it is currently. Get rid of the Alaska brand, but have AS manage the combined entity as they have the best leadership team of the three.


PeoplExpress tried something very similar to that when they acquired the original Frontier in 1985 and kept Frontier's DEN-hubbed operation separate from PE's EWR-hubbed system. It failed miserably. PE shut down Frontier in September 1986 and both were swallowed up by Lorenzo's Continental and merged into CO in February of '87.


I think B6 and F9 merger would've worked a long time ago. At current time, B6 cost is too high to work with F9's network. F9 also doesn't have much tangible assets outside of a few slots at DCA and gates at DEN.

I think HA is a good possibility. With WN entering HI, HA is going to be in a world of trouble. They are going to be loosing money in 2 years time. And merging with HA will provide them with the widebodies needed to really compete on those TATL routes. Also, A220 after the first PIP will be great on the long and thin HI routes.
 
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jaybird
Posts: 349
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2001 4:23 am

Re: B6 Situation

Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:08 am

Super80Fan wrote:
Runway28L wrote:
jumbojet wrote:

Your sadly mistaken. what makes you so certain DL will pull out of SEA and BOS come the next recession? Hate to tell you but they aren't going anywhere. If anyone needs to be quaking in their boots its JetBlue. The next recession will see MINT planes turn back to all economy. JetBlue will undoubtedly suffer the most.

Lol.

Clearly you’ve never read any post on here indicating how financially successful Mint has been out of BOS, JFK, and FLL from data tphuang has kindly provided countless times.

These narratives about B6 have become out of control. It’s frustrating to see.
B6Aviator wrote:
People on this forum are legitimately hoping for the demise of JetBlue, it's a sad reality but the truth nonetheless. Go check any B6 related thread and you will see posts from the same cast of characters eagerly awaiting the JetBlue casket being lowered into the ground.

The airline just celebrated it's 19th anniversary and doesn't have six hundred airplanes in the fleet. Competing against the majors and ULCC's is tough but they've carved out a nice niche for themselves. I don't know what the future holds as far as M&A activity, but I fail to see what the big 3 gain other than paying billions/divesting slots just to eliminate a competitor.

The main perpetrators are A) Employees from other airlines. B) FFers of rival airlines. And C) Armchair CEOs who think they have enough credentials to run JetBlue.

I hate to say it, but it’s time to start cracking down on this nonsense.


Those are some interesting conspiracy theories. Truth be told, B6 is NOT healthy. They might act like it and look like it to the general public, but the only happy employees at the company are all at the NY HQ. The rest who make up the majority of the company are begging for a merger. There is no clear path forward, their fleet is aging, and morale is probably the lowest out of any airline in the US.


"The rest who make up the majority of the company are begging for a merger."

Be careful what you ask for. There are many employees who are more unhappy after a merger .. if they have a job at all. I'm not being snippy or anything .. but look at the merger history in the US and from an employee standpoint (and sometimes from a passenger standpoint) it's not pretty.
 
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Veigar
Topic Author
Posts: 419
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Re: B6 Situation

Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:21 am

tphuang wrote:
mga707 wrote:
smflyer wrote:
I think F9 and B6 should merge, but maintain two separate brands. The real advantage to this deal would be to convert the F9 DEN hub into a JetBlue branded hub as its an excellent connection point and enough O&D business travelers to support the more "premium" JetBlue brand. The rest of the F9 focus cities should maintain the Frontier branding and ULCC product offering as that is a highly profitable business model. After building up DEN, then can then merge with AS and finally have a full coast to coast network offering the "premium" JetBlue product in markets that can support it and offering the Frontier product in markets that are more price sensitive. The JetBlue product would be very similar to the legacy airlines services and the Frontier product will be what it is currently. Get rid of the Alaska brand, but have AS manage the combined entity as they have the best leadership team of the three.


PeoplExpress tried something very similar to that when they acquired the original Frontier in 1985 and kept Frontier's DEN-hubbed operation separate from PE's EWR-hubbed system. It failed miserably. PE shut down Frontier in September 1986 and both were swallowed up by Lorenzo's Continental and merged into CO in February of '87.


I think B6 and F9 merger would've worked a long time ago. At current time, B6 cost is too high to work with F9's network. F9 also doesn't have much tangible assets outside of a few slots at DCA and gates at DEN.

I think HA is a good possibility. With WN entering HI, HA is going to be in a world of trouble. They are going to be loosing money in 2 years time. And merging with HA will provide them with the widebodies needed to really compete on those TATL routes. Also, A220 after the first PIP will be great on the long and thin HI routes.


Will WN launch flights from places like LAS to HNL? Those are big HA routes.
 
c933103
Posts: 3767
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:32 am

mga707 wrote:
smflyer wrote:
I think F9 and B6 should merge, but maintain two separate brands. The real advantage to this deal would be to convert the F9 DEN hub into a JetBlue branded hub as its an excellent connection point and enough O&D business travelers to support the more "premium" JetBlue brand. The rest of the F9 focus cities should maintain the Frontier branding and ULCC product offering as that is a highly profitable business model. After building up DEN, then can then merge with AS and finally have a full coast to coast network offering the "premium" JetBlue product in markets that can support it and offering the Frontier product in markets that are more price sensitive. The JetBlue product would be very similar to the legacy airlines services and the Frontier product will be what it is currently. Get rid of the Alaska brand, but have AS manage the combined entity as they have the best leadership team of the three.


PeoplExpress tried something very similar to that when they acquired the original Frontier in 1985 and kept Frontier's DEN-hubbed operation separate from PE's EWR-hubbed system. It failed miserably. PE shut down Frontier in September 1986 and both were swallowed up by Lorenzo's Continental and merged into CO in February of '87.

One can probably mirror what Cathay recently did by rebranding Dragonair into Cathay Dragon.
Say NO to Hong Kong police's cooperation with criminal organizations like triad.
 
Babyshark
Posts: 168
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:16 am

tphuang wrote:
The replacements will be A220-500 when that comes out. A220 series is a perfectly replacement for what they have right now and have lower CASM than A320NEO. It doesn't make sense for them to take another A320. At which point, they will have most likely far and away the most passenger friendly fleet in the industry.

A220-100 115 seats?
A220-300 135-140 setas
A220-500 165 seats
A321 200 seats
Works pretty well.

.


The 220-500 isn't real. And it won't be. The actual real life 221 fuel is not that much better than the 320 CEOs with CFM56s, within about 5-6% per asm. Maybe it's why there's only 536 orders, some dubious, for the 220 (60 delivered) and 10x that for 320neo family orders. 10x. 5900ish.

A 320 and 321 are the same type rating too. What doesn't make sense is doing a different type rating with 220 but they're not above doing dumb stuff.
 
roberthuss
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:44 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:39 am

flyiguy wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
B6 isn’t going anywhere for quite awhile and deff not to UA or HA, AS or WN. Just stop with this nonsense.

UA-already has dominance of EWR. JFK added would bring in a monopoly to the NYC area and violate anti-trust laws.

HA- ummmm I do t think this even merits and explanation.

WN- has very little following in the northeast. BOS and PHL buildups have been dismal failures. Even ATL is a shadow of what it started out with after the first official day of ops after AirTran. Fact is WN is strong in the mid west and west coast and that’s about it.

AS- Can’t cut it out east. Cutting previous VX transcon frequencies left and right and cutting intra-coast flying out east. With a name like Alaska, the general public doesn’t think of LA,San Fran, San Diego etc....they think of icy Alaska and the cold gray northwest. They would not last out east especially hanging onto the AS name like they’d be stubborn to do. It’s dumb.

Lastly the Moxy scenario. If anyone has ever looked up the deffinition it’s may be a telling sign of what this is about. I believe that Project Moxy is a Trojan horse that will allow Neeleman and his investors to takeover B6. A year and a half out from start and there’s not much to know since this was announced other than 2 stark similarities.

Both ”Moxy” and B6 order 60 frames each of A220 within 2 days of each other.

Neeleman says B6 and ”Moxy” will not have one competing route. Well it’s hard to compete aginast yourself. I think if you read some of the press releases there are subliminal messages that David is throwing out there. Perhaps “Project Moxy” is not only a buyback and reinvestment into B6 but a reinvention and rebirth of B6.



WN is big in the east as well! BWI has over 200 flights serving the Mid Atlantic. MCO, WN is the #1 carrier having over 1/3 of the market share. TPA WN is #1, ATL WN is #2 for obvious reasons there. I could go on...

FLY


WN does not have a 1/3 market share in MCO.

As of the end of 2018:
WN - 27.42%
DL - 15.05%
AA - 13.61%
B6 - 12.33%
NK - 9.97%
 
N766UA
Posts: 8212
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:14 pm

I think airliners.net should buy jetblue so it can finally be run by true aviation champions of industry.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2769
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:06 pm

enilria wrote:
Veigar wrote:
I

So, again they aren't in a death spiral, they just need a strategy change to take them to the next level. Their options are:
1) Expand to Europe which will propel growth for probably 4-5 years.
2) Merge with Alaska and fix the breadth of product problem they both have.
3) Do like F9 did and switch to a ULCC.

I suspect they will do #1 short-term and #2 long-term. Frankly, this whole post could be applied just as easily to AS. The situation is nearly identical.


This makes the most sense. Get into Europe and merge with AS. Thing is, what would the airline be called? I would imagine it would retain the Alaska name (good thing). Then, long term, I can see AS reaching out on its own metal into Japan, China, S. Korea. That would be interesting.
 
lostsound
Posts: 639
Joined: Mon May 21, 2012 1:43 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:33 pm

For the millionth time JetBlue is fine. Stop with this merging nonsense..
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:36 pm

B6 + AS = USAir + PSA

A merger of two East Coast and West Coast heavies with little in between. While PSA USAir was a failure as a merger, it was also a success as it kept USAir in business a few more years to be swallowed by AmericaWest and finally digested by American.

While I do not think AS would be silly enough to repeat such a merger blunder, a desperate set of institutional JetBlue investors may. Truthfully JetBlue seems fine as a stand alone for now.

Let’s hope history does not repeat itself here.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
hiflyeras
Posts: 2005
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:55 pm

B6's problem is they don't serve the middle of the country. AS has done a masterful job of linking the middle of the US with the west coast but B6 has barely begun and it seems like they're not really interested.

If egos allowed, a merger of AS, B6 and HA would be a sight to see! I think AS should start with HA...maybe as soon as next year. Digest that then add B6.
 
tkoenig95
Posts: 282
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:39 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:29 pm

I think 2019-2022 will be a pivotal period for B6 as they start cost restructuring and focusing on routes that are profitable. Are there areas of improvement for the airline to shine light on? Yes, as does every airline has. UA didn't turn around on a dime an neither will B6.
 
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dennypayne
Posts: 239
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:38 am

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:35 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
B6's problem is they don't serve the middle of the country. AS has done a masterful job of linking the middle of the US with the west coast but B6 has barely begun and it seems like they're not really interested.


Why exactly is this a problem? If a corporation makes a profit at what they do, then they are performing just as they should. If, for whatever reason, you don't feel that you can make money flying to some place, then don't do it. They are 'interested' in making money, not flying somewhere just so people can see their aircraft.

It is true that when I lived in Dallas, I did not fly B6, because it would have generally meant a flight to Boston to connect, which is silly (I did fly them once to Boston specifically). But that doesn't mean that they should chase passengers like me, if they are making money with their current network.

It is a fallacy that every airline has to fly everywhere.
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FlyHPN
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Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:40 pm

N766UA wrote:
I think airliners.net should buy jetblue so it can finally be run by true aviation champions of industry.


:rotfl: :cry2:
 
flyby519
Posts: 1413
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:31 am

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:41 pm

dennypayne wrote:
It is a fallacy that every airline has to fly everywhere.


Agree, but do you think that an airline needs to keep growing in order to spread its increasing costs over a larger number of flights? JetBlue is an east coast airline that needs to take a risk expanding into Europe and/or Midwest. They have served all the decent east coast routes they can.

Option B, is it sustainable for an airline to remain constant sized (or shrink) while reducing costs over a longer term?
 
dtremit
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:08 am

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:48 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
B6 + AS = USAir + PSA

A merger of two East Coast and West Coast heavies with little in between. While PSA USAir was a failure as a merger, it was also a success as it kept USAir in business a few more years to be swallowed by AmericaWest and finally digested by American.

While I do not think AS would be silly enough to repeat such a merger blunder, a desperate set of institutional JetBlue investors may. Truthfully JetBlue seems fine as a stand alone for now.

Let’s hope history does not repeat itself here.


Alternately, Republic (NW) + Hughes Airwest. Or Delta and Western. Or AA and AirCal. Or AA and RenoAir.
Of all of those, I think only one hub from one carrier ended up surviving after ten years.

Honestly, I don't understand why AS + B6 don't just form a codeshare/frequent flyer partnership. That model seems to be out of vogue, but the almost complete lack of route overlap between the two seems like it would provide both carriers with advantages (particularly for corporate contracts) at very little cost.
 
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thewizbizman
Posts: 122
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Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:53 pm

DL would be interesting but DOJ would never let it go though, they would finally get JFK and BOS back.
UA and AA would be a firm no, UA because infrastructure being nonexistent in JFK and plenty at EWR. AA, thats obvious.
I dont think NK would be a good fit as they serve generally different markets. I dont think F9 is in the right place for a merger at the moment.
However, I would love to see SY, I think they serve the same market, not luxury but definitely not ULCC. It would give SY the boost and expansion they need, especially in Florida and the northeastern area.
 
dtremit
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:08 am

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:54 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
B6's problem is they don't serve the middle of the country. AS has done a masterful job of linking the middle of the US with the west coast but B6 has barely begun and it seems like they're not really interested.


Huh?

AS serves exactly 11 non-coastal US cities. JetBlue serves 17.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 3845
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:15 pm

smflyer wrote:
I think F9 and B6 should merge, but maintain two separate brands. The real advantage to this deal would be to convert the F9 DEN hub into a JetBlue branded hub as its an excellent connection point and enough O&D business travelers to support the more "premium" JetBlue brand. The rest of the F9 focus cities should maintain the Frontier branding and ULCC product offering as that is a highly profitable business model. After building up DEN, then can then merge with AS and finally have a full coast to coast network offering the "premium" JetBlue product in markets that can support it and offering the Frontier product in markets that are more price sensitive. The JetBlue product would be very similar to the legacy airlines services and the Frontier product will be what it is currently. Get rid of the Alaska brand, but have AS manage the combined entity as they have the best leadership team of the three.


United and Southwest would squash a jetBlue hub in DEN.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
winginit
Posts: 2542
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:20 pm

dennypayne wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:
B6's problem is they don't serve the middle of the country. AS has done a masterful job of linking the middle of the US with the west coast but B6 has barely begun and it seems like they're not really interested.


Why exactly is this a problem? If a corporation makes a profit at what they do, then they are performing just as they should. If, for whatever reason, you don't feel that you can make money flying to some place, then don't do it. They are 'interested' in making money, not flying somewhere just so people can see their aircraft.


This. I'd love for those who are trying to drunk all over B6 to pull out an actual financial statement, point to a number or a trend and go 'that right there, that's the problem and it needs to be addressed'.
 
tphuang
Posts: 2980
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:20 pm

flyby519 wrote:
dennypayne wrote:
It is a fallacy that every airline has to fly everywhere.


Agree, but do you think that an airline needs to keep growing in order to spread its increasing costs over a larger number of flights? JetBlue is an east coast airline that needs to take a risk expanding into Europe and/or Midwest. They have served all the decent east coast routes they can.

Option B, is it sustainable for an airline to remain constant sized (or shrink) while reducing costs over a longer term?


JetBlue has grown faster than any non-ULCC in recent years. How much faster do they need to go?

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