vtchaz78
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:01 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:27 pm

[/quote]JetBlue has grown faster than any non-ULCC in recent years. How much faster do they need to go?[/quote]


They're also one of the only airlines, post-deregulation, to never merge or declare bankruptcy...clearly they have no idea what they're doing...
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 2885
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:31 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
their fleet is aging


JetBlue employees are unhappy because their fleet is aging? Really?

Average fleet age:
Alaska 8.3 years
JetBlue 10.1
American 10.7
Southwest 11.0
United 15.0
Delta 15.9

Source: airfleets.net


The problem is not the A321's, which are newer and they are continuing to get, it's not the E190's which will be leaving in the next 5-10 years and replaced by A220's, the problem is with their A320's. The A320 makes up the bulk of the B6 fleet/network and has an average age of 13.5 years old. They haven't received a new one since 2013. While they aren't ancient, they have a high amount of cycles because B6 uses and abuses them. They're eventually going to have to be retired and while B6 could possible work with a fleet of A220's and A321's, there are still markets that an A320 size aircraft would work in that the A220 is too little and the A321 is too much.


At the same time, those A320s are almost all fully owned and B6 values the ownership. I do see an A320neo order coming soon...and an evolution to MINT on that fleet with a smaller section. Right now, LatAm, especially to Panama and Brazil, is where expansion should be planned (the latter in cooperation with AD, and B6 could find a slot and gate for them into JFK).
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 465
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:37 pm

They are focused on being focused. I think they realized they need to carve out a fortress hub or two for themselves. They really need to get BOS up to 50+ percent market share eventually. Even AS has that at SEA.
 
vtchaz78
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:01 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:38 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
IPFreely wrote:

JetBlue employees are unhappy because their fleet is aging? Really?

Average fleet age:
Alaska 8.3 years
JetBlue 10.1
American 10.7
Southwest 11.0
United 15.0
Delta 15.9

Source: airfleets.net


The problem is not the A321's, which are newer and they are continuing to get, it's not the E190's which will be leaving in the next 5-10 years and replaced by A220's, the problem is with their A320's. The A320 makes up the bulk of the B6 fleet/network and has an average age of 13.5 years old. They haven't received a new one since 2013. While they aren't ancient, they have a high amount of cycles because B6 uses and abuses them. They're eventually going to have to be retired and while B6 could possible work with a fleet of A220's and A321's, there are still markets that an A320 size aircraft would work in that the A220 is too little and the A321 is too much.


At the same time, those A320s are almost all fully owned and B6 values the ownership. I do see an A320neo order coming soon...and an evolution to MINT on that fleet with a smaller section. Right now, LatAm, especially to Panama and Brazil, is where expansion should be planned (the latter in cooperation with AD, and B6 could find a slot and gate for them into JFK).


I'm curious why you think they would order any more 320s? They have publicly stated they are not. All future 320Neo orders were converted to 321Neos. The A220 is a better product and has better economics for anything they might want a 320 to do.
 
User avatar
NYPECO
Posts: 557
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:55 am

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:40 pm

Maybe people don't like to see JetBlue competing with their favorite airline and that's where this obsession with wanting them to fail comes from.
 
User avatar
Veigar
Topic Author
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:48 pm

vtchaz78 wrote:
JetBlue has grown faster than any non-ULCC in recent years. How much faster do they need to go?


They're also one of the only airlines, post-deregulation, to never merge or declare bankruptcy...clearly they have no idea what they're doing...


What's wrong with an airline merging?

We'll talk mergers that weren't huge or anything-- take Southwest and AirTran. Did you think this happened because Southwest was struggling?
 
vtchaz78
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:01 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:58 pm

Veigar wrote:
vtchaz78 wrote:
JetBlue has grown faster than any non-ULCC in recent years. How much faster do they need to go?


They're also one of the only airlines, post-deregulation, to never merge or declare bankruptcy...clearly they have no idea what they're doing...


What's wrong with an airline merging?

We'll talk mergers that weren't huge or anything-- take Southwest and AirTran. Did you think this happened because Southwest was struggling?


Nothing, and WN absolutely was doing very well. The previous posters were arguing that JetBlue wasn't growing fast enough or was somehow struggling because it didn't have enough market share, didn't fly to enough places, etc. Mergers are, arguably, the easy way to do those things. Not saying it isn't a viable and reasonable strategy (as is bankruptcy sometimes) just not one that JetBlue has not utilized yet. They did try with VA, though. The path they have taken is one that takes more time, and Wall Street and some of the posters on here, don't like to wait.
 
MR27122
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 3:00 am

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:01 pm

dtremit wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
B6 + AS = USAir + PSA

A merger of two East Coast and West Coast heavies with little in between. While PSA USAir was a failure as a merger, it was also a success as it kept USAir in business a few more years to be swallowed by AmericaWest and finally digested by American.

While I do not think AS would be silly enough to repeat such a merger blunder, a desperate set of institutional JetBlue investors may. Truthfully JetBlue seems fine as a stand alone for now.

Let’s hope history does not repeat itself here.


Alternately, Republic (NW) + Hughes Airwest. Or Delta and Western. Or AA and AirCal. Or AA and RenoAir.
Of all of those, I think only one hub from one carrier ended up surviving after ten years.

Honestly, I don't understand why AS + B6 don't just form a codeshare/frequent flyer partnership. That model seems to be out of vogue, but the almost complete lack of route overlap between the two seems like it would provide both carriers with advantages (particularly for corporate contracts) at very little cost.


I could be 100% wrong....but wasn't an inducement to the AA/AirCal merger & US/PSA the fact that SWA was massively building up in CA? It "seemed" like AA & PSA was the more logical merger---no clue if US has already bought PSA. The AirCal---it was much smaller than PSA (correct?)--AA purchase will always be puzzling. What's more puzzling is the stupidity of the AA/QQ merger, kinda like burn we once I get burned, burned me twice...AND...I get burned twice. DL & Western was ultimately a success. A B6 & AS code-share/agreement seems logical.

However, I don't "get" the urge-to-merge (more consolidation) slant on a.net. B6 & AS simply don't appear to compliment each other re: route structure, service structure, corporate culture (AS is more legacy like with F & C cabins, B6 is more LCC w/ just C...but where it has F--or Mint---it blows AS F away due to lie-flat...just a confusing "mesh"). An circa 2019 AS/B6 merger just seems like a round-peg & triangle-peg trying to be forced into a circular hole....especially when neither carrier is in some catastrophic financial tailspin & in need of re-inventing itself. If only 6 million people moved to Kansas City & it became the Tech-Center of the Country...then, ya merge & build a huge MCI fortress hub fed by B6/East & AS/West.
 
hiflyeras
Posts: 2050
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:04 pm

dtremit wrote:

Huh?

AS serves exactly 11 non-coastal US cities. JetBlue serves 17.


And just how many of those destinations are actually in the US and not in the Caribbean? Where are MCI, IND, OKC, STL, ICT, MKE? Lots of places to go that aren't just leisure destinations like probably most of those 17.
 
afgeneral
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:43 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:04 pm

I'm starting to think whether B6's "imaginary" problems are because they are all Airbus. Something just doesn't "feel right" to the Boeing fans.
 
tphuang
Posts: 3229
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:17 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
dtremit wrote:

Huh?

AS serves exactly 11 non-coastal US cities. JetBlue serves 17.


And just how many of those destinations are actually in the US and not in the Caribbean? Where are MCI, IND, OKC, STL, ICT, MKE? Lots of places to go that aren't just leisure destinations like probably most of those 17.


They fly to at least ORD/DTW/MSP/DFW/HOU/AUS/ABQ/BNA/MSY/PIT/BUF/CLE/DEN/SLC/PHX/ROC/SYR. I'm not sure exactly which cities the other poster was referring to exactly. Can they expand more, sure. But it will have to make sense with rest of their network. They are not in a competition with AS to see who can serve the most in the middle of the country.

From where they are, expanding further to Latin America and Europe make more sense than expanding to MKE or OKC.

They have a plan and it's a reasonable plan. I don't know why people keep insisting they need to fly to middle of the country or have a intra-west coast presence. They need to fly where people in NYC/BOS and maybe Florida want to go.
 
AA94
Posts: 723
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:37 am

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:23 pm

Blueballs wrote:
Here’s the reality from a seasoned jetblue captain:
The company is strong financially, in spite of a leadership team that believes “culture starts at the bottom”

Leadership doesn’t believe the employees are an asset but a liability

We have a chief operations officer with no operational experience, and instead of focusing on low morale and embarrassing on time percentages she chooses to focus on cleaning the airplanes and a culture that no longer exists.

All work groups are burnt out from being understaffed and overworked

Let’s not get started on the profit sharing

Morale is low in all groups I come across, gate agents don’t care anymore as they have to deal with the angry passengers during our routine delays with .2% profit sharing and threats of termination. Flight attendants are treated like toddlers and are taught how evil pilots and unions are instead of focusing on the truly important parts of their jobs. Mechanics are being overworked and told the pilots are writing up stuff as a job action. When in reality the aren’t being supported and are encouraged to sweep the deficiencies under the rug. The pilots are told they don’t matter aren’t respected for the important role they play and constantly are questioned or intimidated by the chief pilots office for things like being sick or writing up maintainance issues.

The only happy people are those that work in LSC (headquarters) and are truly brainwashed.

A successful company with all the frontline employees praying for a merger just to hav a change of management.


Profit sharing, you say? Let's not forget the massive one-time costs of pilot contract implementation, upwards of $150mm in 2018 alone. Your workgroup deserves a contract, and I'm personally happy you got it, but y'all are very comfortable with playing armchair CEO/COO while ignoring (whether accidentally or purposely) the impact of that contract. Some of your points above are salient, but they get lost in the laundry list of other complaints.

Every airline has disgruntled passengers, and every airline has a frontline workforce(s) who have to answer to them. That's not a legitimate grievance.
 
flyby519
Posts: 1431
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:31 am

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:25 pm

AA94 wrote:
Blueballs wrote:
Here’s the reality from a seasoned jetblue captain:
The company is strong financially, in spite of a leadership team that believes “culture starts at the bottom”

Leadership doesn’t believe the employees are an asset but a liability

We have a chief operations officer with no operational experience, and instead of focusing on low morale and embarrassing on time percentages she chooses to focus on cleaning the airplanes and a culture that no longer exists.

All work groups are burnt out from being understaffed and overworked

Let’s not get started on the profit sharing

Morale is low in all groups I come across, gate agents don’t care anymore as they have to deal with the angry passengers during our routine delays with .2% profit sharing and threats of termination. Flight attendants are treated like toddlers and are taught how evil pilots and unions are instead of focusing on the truly important parts of their jobs. Mechanics are being overworked and told the pilots are writing up stuff as a job action. When in reality the aren’t being supported and are encouraged to sweep the deficiencies under the rug. The pilots are told they don’t matter aren’t respected for the important role they play and constantly are questioned or intimidated by the chief pilots office for things like being sick or writing up maintainance issues.

The only happy people are those that work in LSC (headquarters) and are truly brainwashed.

A successful company with all the frontline employees praying for a merger just to hav a change of management.


Profit sharing, you say? Let's not forget the massive one-time costs of pilot contract implementation, upwards of $150mm in 2018 alone. Your workgroup deserves a contract, and I'm personally happy you got it, but y'all are very comfortable with playing armchair CEO/COO while ignoring (whether accidentally or purposely) the impact of that contract. Some of your points above are salient, but they get lost in the laundry list of other complaints.

Every airline has disgruntled passengers, and every airline has a frontline workforce(s) who have to answer to them. That's not a legitimate grievance.


Massive expense? How much has been spent on stock buybacks in recent years?
 
User avatar
Super80Fan
Posts: 1622
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:14 am

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:45 pm

NYPECO wrote:
Maybe people don't like to see JetBlue competing with their favorite airline and that's where this obsession with wanting them to fail comes from.


Nah, it has to do with the fact that the original management team with the good vision is no longer with the company and all that's left are bean counters turning B6 into every other airline but with horrible IRROPS recovery and a route network dedicated to the East Coast.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
jetbluefan1
Posts: 3278
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:39 am

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:28 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
They are focused on being focused. I think they realized they need to carve out a fortress hub or two for themselves. They really need to get BOS up to 50+ percent market share eventually. Even AS has that at SEA.


I think you hit the nail on the head, and their recent BOS announcement touting additional flights to a bunch of primarily business destinations sort of evidences this. I have a feeling that on April 10th, we'll see an announcement outlining their Europe ambitions, which I presume will focus heavily on BOS (and, of course, JFK).

B6 is also picking up an additional 5-6 gates at BOS, whereas DL - which is actively building BOS - is almost at capacity given the current terminal setup. When considering the additional gate capacity at BOS, the increase in the A320 seat count, the upgauging to A321's, and the swapping out of the 100-seat E-190's for the 120-ish seat A220's beginning next year, there appears to be a path to where B6 could get to 50%+ market share.

NYPECO wrote:
Maybe people don't like to see JetBlue competing with their favorite airline and that's where this obsession with wanting them to fail comes from.


:checkmark:

The thing is that this is not a zero sum game. As long as the economy doesn't totally tank, everyone can pretty much coexist nicely and still turn a profit. B6 and DL co-exist very nicely at JFK. B6 somehow co-exists with NK/WN at FLL. And they obviously hold their own at BOS, which is at least a very large spoke for the AA/UA and now a focus city for DL. I don't understand why people think that one has to "beat" the other.

hiflyeras wrote:
B6's problem is they don't serve the middle of the country. AS has done a masterful job of linking the middle of the US with the west coast but B6 has barely begun and it seems like they're not really interested.

If egos allowed, a merger of AS, B6 and HA would be a sight to see! I think AS should start with HA...maybe as soon as next year. Digest that then add B6.


As others have pointed out, I don't see why B6's relatively light "middle of the country" flying is such a problem. They cannot be everything to everyone, and their current network makes them extremely relevant for the populations surrounding their 3 hubs - New York, Boston, and South Florida. If they want to increase their relevance to such population, I would wager that flying to - say - LON, PAR, AMS, GRU, EZE - is more important than flying to - say - MKE or MCI.

I do agree, though, that an eventual merger or JV with AS and/or HA would bring benefits to all airlines involved, and to consumers too!

tphuang wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:
dtremit wrote:

Huh?

AS serves exactly 11 non-coastal US cities. JetBlue serves 17.


And just how many of those destinations are actually in the US and not in the Caribbean? Where are MCI, IND, OKC, STL, ICT, MKE? Lots of places to go that aren't just leisure destinations like probably most of those 17.


They fly to at least ORD/DTW/MSP/DFW/HOU/AUS/ABQ/BNA/MSY/PIT/BUF/CLE/DEN/SLC/PHX/ROC/SYR. I'm not sure exactly which cities the other poster was referring to exactly. Can they expand more, sure. But it will have to make sense with rest of their network. They are not in a competition with AS to see who can serve the most in the middle of the country.

From where they are, expanding further to Latin America and Europe make more sense than expanding to MKE or OKC.

They have a plan and it's a reasonable plan. I don't know why people keep insisting they need to fly to middle of the country or have a intra-west coast presence. They need to fly where people in NYC/BOS and maybe Florida want to go.


:checkmark:

Exactly my point, and clearly B6 management thinks along the same lines. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see B6 not add any further domestic destinations until the A220's come online, and even then I would suspect they will be to niche markets like EGE, SNA, JAC etc. Tbh, I don't think we're ever going to see B6 in IND, CMH, CVG, MKE, STL, MCI etc with its current focus city/hub setup. There just isn't that much demand originating from BOS, next to no demand originating from JFK, and demand from FLL is likely generally low yielding and already well served by WN/NK and AA at MIA.

Put simply, there are far more lucrative markets in Latin America and Europe which will more fully satisfy the needs of fliers originating from Boston, New York, and South Florida, and that's where B6's focus rightfully seems to be.
 
mcdu
Posts: 1529
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:34 pm

vtchaz78 wrote:
JetBlue has grown faster than any non-ULCC in recent years. How much faster do they need to go?[/quote]


They're also one of the only airlines, post-deregulation, to never merge or declare bankruptcy...clearly they have no idea what they're doing...[/quote]


Except that B6 came to be during the contract givebacks at the other airlines. All their employees were on year one pay while the rest of the industry had long tenure employees. Had B6 been their size and cost structure today with a 9/11 and recession events the story would most likely be much different for them.
 
jplatts
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:41 pm

jetbluefan1 wrote:
I don't think we're ever going to see B6 in IND, CMH, CVG, MKE, STL, MCI etc with its current focus city/hub setup. There just isn't that much demand originating from BOS, next to no demand originating from JFK, and demand from FLL is likely generally low yielding and already well served by WN/NK and AA at MIA.


MKE currently lacks year-round nonstop service to MIA or FLL, and WN is currently the only airline with seasonal nonstop service to FLL from MKE.

While WN doesn't currently serve CVG nonstop from FLL, CVG already has nonstop service out of FLL on G4 and DL. AA also already serves CVG nonstop from its MIA hub.

In addition, NK also doesn't currently serve CVG, MKE, and STL.
 
tphuang
Posts: 3229
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:39 pm

mcdu wrote:

Except that B6 came to be during the contract givebacks at the other airlines. All their employees were on year one pay while the rest of the industry had long tenure employees. Had B6 been their size and cost structure today with a 9/11 and recession events the story would most likely be much different for them.

And how many other airlines that sprung up post 9/11 have survived? Right, none.

It's normal for an airline to have cost structure advantage when starting up. Just as it's normal for higher cost airlines to have network advantage. Today, B6 is middle of the pack in margin. There will be quite a few airlines in trouble before B6 gets into trouble. After all, they have great balance sheet, consistently make money and their 2 biggest focus cities aren't facing any kind of ULCC threat. And, there are quite a few areas in their network they can easily cut in the event of downturn that could keep them competitive.

jetbluefan1 wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
They are focused on being focused. I think they realized they need to carve out a fortress hub or two for themselves. They really need to get BOS up to 50+ percent market share eventually. Even AS has that at SEA.


I think you hit the nail on the head, and their recent BOS announcement touting additional flights to a bunch of primarily business destinations sort of evidences this. I have a feeling that on April 10th, we'll see an announcement outlining their Europe ambitions, which I presume will focus heavily on BOS (and, of course, JFK).

B6 is also picking up an additional 5-6 gates at BOS, whereas DL - which is actively building BOS - is almost at capacity given the current terminal setup. When considering the additional gate capacity at BOS, the increase in the A320 seat count, the upgauging to A321's, and the swapping out of the 100-seat E-190's for the 120-ish seat A220's beginning next year, there appears to be a path to where B6 could get to 50%+ market share.

With the recent announcement, I think they will be up to 185 flights a day a year from now (mar/april typically their busiest time out of BOS), so not far from their announced goal of 200 and clearly places to add flights beyond that point.

I think 50% might be hard to achieve in short term given the gate situation, but 40% is quite realistic if they get up to 225 flights a day (which I think will happen by probably 2022) with A220s replacing E90s. Probably have to rely on this fare war in BOS to push more airlines like WN, UA, AA to downsize or for DL to give up before they can get to 50%. If they can get to that point, BOS will be one of the most profitable hubs in the country.

Only thing is I wonder if the rumored JFK slot lifting will change their focus. If that happens, I would imagine both B6 and DL would shift good deal of attention back to JFK.

The thing is that this is not a zero sum game. As long as the economy doesn't totally tank, everyone can pretty much coexist nicely and still turn a profit. B6 and DL co-exist very nicely at JFK. B6 somehow co-exists with NK/WN at FLL. And they obviously hold their own at BOS, which is at least a very large spoke for the AA/UA and now a focus city for DL. I don't understand why people think that one has to "beat" the other.

At current time, I don't see any additional danger on the way in their major cities. BOS is undesirable for any other larger carriers to try to buildup right now and no gates left for ULCC to build up. JFK/LGA/HPN/EWR are completely maxed out and no risk of ULCC build up. FLL already has as much LCC and ULCC competition as possible and WN is cutting back. Only MCO is vulnerable to NK/F9 build up, but MCO is not critical to their success. They can always hold back on their MCO expansion plans. So this is the worst they can do during good economy and they can always cut back HAV and LGB to improve their finances.

If you look at other carriers, it's not necessarily so. WN is now facing major NK build up at LAS/MCO/BWI/MSY as well as a long term struggle with AS in west. HA and AS are now both going to feel the effect of WN entering HI. All the legacies major fortress hubs are all likely to face more NK pressure (as we saw recently with CLT).
 
jplatts
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:57 pm

tphuang wrote:
FLL already has as much LCC and ULCC competition as possible and WN is cutting back.


There are actually a few more domestic nonstop routes that could still be added by WN at FLL such as FLL-CVG, FLL-SDF, FLL-MEM, FLL-ORF, and FLL-OMA, but neither B6 nor NK currently serve CVG, SDF, MEM, ORF, or OMA.

While B6 already serves SAN nonstop from FLL, WN could add FLL-SAN in order to defend against AS or NK possibly adding FLL-SAN nonstop service.

Even though SFO already has nonstop service to the Miami/Fort Lauderdale market on AA, UA, AS, and B6, WN could add FLL-OAK nonstop service in order to better compete against AS in the San Francisco Bay Area.

WN had also previously stated that it was considering adding FLL-CLE nonstop service, even though CLE is already served nonstop from the Miami/Fort Lauderdale market on AA, B6, NK, and UA.

While WN already has seasonal nonstop service to MKE from FLL, MKE lacks year-round nonstop service from the Miami/Fort Lauderdale market, and WN could extend FLL-MKE nonstop service to year-round.
 
zuoyi
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:24 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:51 pm

I used to fly B6 a lot cause I'm based in BOS. But now I switched to Delta for better on-time performance.
 
nine4nine
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:41 pm

tphuang wrote:
flyby519 wrote:
dennypayne wrote:
It is a fallacy that every airline has to fly everywhere.


Agree, but do you think that an airline needs to keep growing in order to spread its increasing costs over a larger number of flights? JetBlue is an east coast airline that needs to take a risk expanding into Europe and/or Midwest. They have served all the decent east coast routes they can.

Option B, is it sustainable for an airline to remain constant sized (or shrink) while reducing costs over a longer term?


JetBlue has grown faster than any non-ULCC in recent years. How much faster do they need to go?



Faster I guess?

DL fanboys want B6 to fold

Flyover state guys “B6 needs a hub in the Midwest” or they’re doomed.

UA fanboys keep the “impending UA merger rumour” going

And the A.Net CEO’s keep the AS+B6+HA crap going every 10 comments or so on any B6 topic.

Please stop..........!
717 727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 742 748 752 753 762 763 772 773 DC9 MD80/88/90 DC10 319 320 321 332 333 CS100 CRJ200 Q400 E175 E190 ERJ145 EMB120
 
User avatar
Veigar
Topic Author
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:51 pm

zuoyi wrote:
I used to fly B6 a lot cause I'm based in BOS. But now I switched to Delta for better on-time performance.


How would you compare DL's seating/customer service to B6?
 
santi319
Posts: 836
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:10 am

nine4nine wrote:
tphuang wrote:
flyby519 wrote:

Agree, but do you think that an airline needs to keep growing in order to spread its increasing costs over a larger number of flights? JetBlue is an east coast airline that needs to take a risk expanding into Europe and/or Midwest. They have served all the decent east coast routes they can.

Option B, is it sustainable for an airline to remain constant sized (or shrink) while reducing costs over a longer term?


JetBlue has grown faster than any non-ULCC in recent years. How much faster do they need to go?



Faster I guess?

DL fanboys want B6 to fold

Flyover state guys “B6 needs a hub in the Midwest” or they’re doomed.

UA fanboys keep the “impending UA merger rumour” going

And the A.Net CEO’s keep the AS+B6+HA crap going every 10 comments or so on any B6 topic.

Please stop..........!


But you forgot that “Europe is imminent”
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 5472
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:45 am

[list=][/list]
Veigar wrote:
zuoyi wrote:
I used to fly B6 a lot cause I'm based in BOS. But now I switched to Delta for better on-time performance.


How would you compare DL's seating/customer service to B6?


A crappy RJ vs a 190 doesnt matter when your flight is late.

That is one are that B6 just doesnt get

-The cutesy PAs
-The snacks
-The TVs
-The smiles
-The cutesy names

None of it means a damn thing if you are 3 hours late and the crappy RJ arrived on time
 
hz747300
Posts: 2373
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:37 am

jfklganyc wrote:
None of it means a damn thing if you are 3 hours late and the crappy RJ arrived on time


In my experience, the crappy RJ is always late too. But any flight that has anything to do with JFK will generally be late after JFK too.

I like the jetHawaiian idea, but I would make adding HKG-HNL compulsory for the 3-way merger to be completed. ;-)
Keep on truckin'...
 
tphuang
Posts: 3229
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:14 am

Veigar wrote:
zuoyi wrote:
I used to fly B6 a lot cause I'm based in BOS. But now I switched to Delta for better on-time performance.


How would you compare DL's seating/customer service to B6?


DL flies mostly RJ vs B6 mainline out of BOS. Product difference between that is pretty large.

As for On time performance out of BOS.

https://www.transtats.bts.gov/OT_Delay/ ... 1.asp?pn=1

B6 from July to December of last year 71.18%
all carriers during same time period 73.17%

Difference was 2%.
 
nine4nine
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:11 pm

hz747300 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
None of it means a damn thing if you are 3 hours late and the crappy RJ arrived on time


In my experience, the crappy RJ is always late too. But any flight that has anything to do with JFK will generally be late after JFK too.

I like the jetHawaiian idea, but I would make adding HKG-HNL compulsory for the 3-way merger to be completed. ;-)



Yes you nailed it. Because people booking a flight from Boston to Cartagena Colombia are gonna say hey, jetHawaiian flies there. Eh no. Nobody in The general public would ever reason that a airline named after a chain of islands halfway across the Pacific Ocean has anything to do with anywhere else. So please put this dumb idea to bed IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!
717 727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 742 748 752 753 762 763 772 773 DC9 MD80/88/90 DC10 319 320 321 332 333 CS100 CRJ200 Q400 E175 E190 ERJ145 EMB120
 
DENTK
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:09 am

Re: B6 Situation

Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:38 pm

santi319 wrote:
None of the mayors will gain anything from buying B6.

Might want to step back from your keyboard and look at this statement again.
A major acquiring B6 would gain a fleet of A320s overnight; which major airline is actively scouring the used market for well-maintained second hand aircraft?
A major acquiring B6 would gain a huge following in both the NE and Florida; which major airline has recently ceded market share in NY and is currently without a true SE hub?
And if the B6 pilots see a better career progression via an acquisition by a major, well, bet on it happening.
That's just a few things...there are other benefits.
 
User avatar
Veigar
Topic Author
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:38 pm

nine4nine wrote:
hz747300 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
None of it means a damn thing if you are 3 hours late and the crappy RJ arrived on time


In my experience, the crappy RJ is always late too. But any flight that has anything to do with JFK will generally be late after JFK too.

I like the jetHawaiian idea, but I would make adding HKG-HNL compulsory for the 3-way merger to be completed. ;-)



Yes you nailed it. Because people booking a flight from Boston to Cartagena Colombia are gonna say hey, jetHawaiian flies there. Eh no. Nobody in The general public would ever reason that a airline named after a chain of islands halfway across the Pacific Ocean has anything to do with anywhere else. So please put this dumb idea to bed IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!


Never say never. Lots of unpredictable things happen.
 
hz747300
Posts: 2373
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:43 pm

Veigar wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
hz747300 wrote:

In my experience, the crappy RJ is always late too. But any flight that has anything to do with JFK will generally be late after JFK too.

I like the jetHawaiian idea, but I would make adding HKG-HNL compulsory for the 3-way merger to be completed. ;-)



Yes you nailed it. Because people booking a flight from Boston to Cartagena Colombia are gonna say hey, jetHawaiian flies there. Eh no. Nobody in The general public would ever reason that a airline named after a chain of islands halfway across the Pacific Ocean has anything to do with anywhere else. So please put this dumb idea to bed IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!


Never say never. Lots of unpredictable things happen.


Just in case, I cashed in my 401k and filed a trademark on jetHawaiian and secured the domain name too.
Keep on truckin'...
 
Blueballs
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:21 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:46 pm

flyby519 wrote:
AA94 wrote:
Blueballs wrote:
Here’s the reality from a seasoned jetblue captain:
The company is strong financially, in spite of a leadership team that believes “culture starts at the bottom”

Leadership doesn’t believe the employees are an asset but a liability

We have a chief operations officer with no operational experience, and instead of focusing on low morale and embarrassing on time percentages she chooses to focus on cleaning the airplanes and a culture that no longer exists.

All work groups are burnt out from being understaffed and overworked

Let’s not get started on the profit sharing

Morale is low in all groups I come across, gate agents don’t care anymore as they have to deal with the angry passengers during our routine delays with .2% profit sharing and threats of termination. Flight attendants are treated like toddlers and are taught how evil pilots and unions are instead of focusing on the truly important parts of their jobs. Mechanics are being overworked and told the pilots are writing up stuff as a job action. When in reality the aren’t being supported and are encouraged to sweep the deficiencies under the rug. The pilots are told they don’t matter aren’t respected for the important role they play and constantly are questioned or intimidated by the chief pilots office for things like being sick or writing up maintainance issues.

The only happy people are those that work in LSC (headquarters) and are truly brainwashed.

A successful company with all the frontline employees praying for a merger just to hav a change of management.


Profit sharing, you say? Let's not forget the massive one-time costs of pilot contract implementation, upwards of $150mm in 2018 alone. Your workgroup deserves a contract, and I'm personally happy you got it, but y'all are very comfortable with playing armchair CEO/COO while ignoring (whether accidentally or purposely) the impact of that contract. Some of your points above are salient, but they get lost in the laundry list of other complaints.

Every airline has disgruntled passengers, and every airline has a frontline workforce(s) who have to answer to them. That's not a legitimate grievance.


Massive expense? How much has been spent on stock buybacks in recent years?

1.25 billion....clearly helped the stock price, just in the wrong direction as we keep losing value. At least the executive team got huge stock bonus. But my hard working flight attendants and gate agents got 30 bucks for all their hard work.
 
Blueballs
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:21 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:47 pm

flyby519 wrote:
AA94 wrote:
Blueballs wrote:
Here’s the reality from a seasoned jetblue captain:
The company is strong financially, in spite of a leadership team that believes “culture starts at the bottom”

Leadership doesn’t believe the employees are an asset but a liability

We have a chief operations officer with no operational experience, and instead of focusing on low morale and embarrassing on time percentages she chooses to focus on cleaning the airplanes and a culture that no longer exists.

All work groups are burnt out from being understaffed and overworked

Let’s not get started on the profit sharing

Morale is low in all groups I come across, gate agents don’t care anymore as they have to deal with the angry passengers during our routine delays with .2% profit sharing and threats of termination. Flight attendants are treated like toddlers and are taught how evil pilots and unions are instead of focusing on the truly important parts of their jobs. Mechanics are being overworked and told the pilots are writing up stuff as a job action. When in reality the aren’t being supported and are encouraged to sweep the deficiencies under the rug. The pilots are told they don’t matter aren’t respected for the important role they play and constantly are questioned or intimidated by the chief pilots office for things like being sick or writing up maintainance issues.

The only happy people are those that work in LSC (headquarters) and are truly brainwashed.

A successful company with all the frontline employees praying for a merger just to hav a change of management.


Profit sharing, you say? Let's not forget the massive one-time costs of pilot contract implementation, upwards of $150mm in 2018 alone. Your workgroup deserves a contract, and I'm personally happy you got it, but y'all are very comfortable with playing armchair CEO/COO while ignoring (whether accidentally or purposely) the impact of that contract. Some of your points above are salient, but they get lost in the laundry list of other complaints.

Every airline has disgruntled passengers, and every airline has a frontline workforce(s) who have to answer to them. That's not a legitimate grievance.


Massive expense? How much has been spent on stock buybacks in recent years?

1.25 billion....clearly helped the stock price, just in the wrong direction as we keep losing value. At least the executive team got huge stock bonus. But my hard working flight attendants and gate agents got 30 bucks for all their hard work.
You guys seem to hate pilots because of our large paychecks, however, in the history of aviation how successful have airlines with angry pilots and workforce morale in the toilet been successful?
 
User avatar
Veigar
Topic Author
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:44 am

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/jetblue ... ai-rum=off

Dunno if it is true, but allegations are there. More fuel to the fire, eh...
 
impilot
Posts: 232
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:38 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:34 am

Veigar wrote:
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/jetblue-pilots-accused-of-drugging-raping-female-flight-attendants-2011577?amp=1&akamai-rum=off

Dunno if it is true, but allegations are there. More fuel to the fire, eh...


It’s a civil suit seeking $75k in damages. No criminal complaint or charges. It was already investigated and pilots cleared of wrongdoing, but FA(s) fired for lying about it (and possibly working drunk/hungover?). If you read the actual lawsuit there are a lot of holes. Sounds like a classic case of “got busted partying too hard and shouldn’t have worked the next day, and out of self-preservation began grasping at straws for a money grab and attempt to get a job back” to me. Guess we will see how it goes, but I hope karma catches up to these fine ladies, Jane Does 1/2/3, while 2 pilots’ reputation has been demolished, with zero evidence, and despite an investigation that already cleared the pilots and incriminated at least one of the FAs. If I see evidence of wrongdoing by the pilot in question or the “guilty by association” captain, then by all means fry em, but I don’t think anyone will find more than a sensationalist article with unfounded allegations.
 
speedbird52
Posts: 769
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: B6 Situation

Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:55 am

impilot wrote:
Veigar wrote:
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/jetblue-pilots-accused-of-drugging-raping-female-flight-attendants-2011577?amp=1&akamai-rum=off

Dunno if it is true, but allegations are there. More fuel to the fire, eh...


It’s a civil suit seeking $75k in damages. No criminal complaint or charges. It was already investigated and pilots cleared of wrongdoing, but FA(s) fired for lying about it (and possibly working drunk/hungover?). If you read the actual lawsuit there are a lot of holes. Sounds like a classic case of “got busted partying too hard and shouldn’t have worked the next day, and out of self-preservation began grasping at straws for a money grab and attempt to get a job back” to me. Guess we will see how it goes, but I hope karma catches up to these fine ladies, Jane Does 1/2/3, while 2 pilots’ reputation has been demolished, with zero evidence, and despite an investigation that already cleared the pilots and incriminated at least one of the FAs. If I see evidence of wrongdoing by the pilot in question or the “guilty by association” captain, then by all means fry em, but I don’t think anyone will find more than a sensationalist article with unfounded allegations.

It's scary how easy it is for a mans life to be ruined today
 
zuoyi
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:24 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:45 am

Veigar wrote:
zuoyi wrote:
I used to fly B6 a lot cause I'm based in BOS. But now I switched to Delta for better on-time performance.


How would you compare DL's seating/customer service to B6?




The new B6 A321s have great seatings, and I would say in general B6 is better than Delta, cause somehow I feel the seats on Delta are too thin, even in comfort+.

I think both customer services are great. Once I flew with B6 and the wifi didn't work, they gave me $15 credit afterwards. The other time I bought the ticket $20 more expensive than my companion, even though the departure is one hour apart, B6 still compensated the difference for me.

Recently I purchased the international flight tickets with Delta and the payment didn't go through. I chatted with a Delta representative on twitter, and she helped resolve it in 5 min, which is impressive.

So overall, they are both good in seating and customer service. But Delta does a lot better in on-time performance. I would have missed my international connection flight due to inbound flight cancellation, if I had booked B6 instead of Delta earlier this month.
 
Supersarestupid
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:28 am

Re: B6 Situation

Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:46 am

pitbosflyer wrote:
I don't think DL needs to buy B6 to have a BOS hub. They are already well on their way to that with the recent build up. Already they call it a focus City, and with them soon gaining all of terminal A they have more room to grow.


DL is growing, but still way behind B6 in direct routes from BOS. And almost everything DL offers is in direct competition with another major or B6. Geographically BOS doesn't make a great domestic US hub as it's at the tipping point. And the demand for point to point is still growing. DL's advantage in using Logan to leverage into Europe is useful, and if B6 does announce TATL service, it should help them grow connecting pax as well. However, B6 is still going to be seen as more of a leisure airline unless you regularly commute between Mint destinations. And as such, DL has the advantage.

I'm still surprised how many Star Alliance carriers serve BOS without much help from UA, who (post-CO) have dropped everything but their key hubs (CLE the most recent victim). Not that I'm complaining about the international options as I have the most loyalty to *A as a passenger. B6 has convenience, WN has flexibility, and DL has been surprisingly upping their game though, so I'm starting to wonder if that loyalty won't change over time.
 
User avatar
Veigar
Topic Author
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:50 am

Supersarestupid wrote:
pitbosflyer wrote:
I don't think DL needs to buy B6 to have a BOS hub. They are already well on their way to that with the recent build up. Already they call it a focus City, and with them soon gaining all of terminal A they have more room to grow.


DL is growing, but still way behind B6 in direct routes from BOS. And almost everything DL offers is in direct competition with another major or B6. Geographically BOS doesn't make a great domestic US hub as it's at the tipping point. And the demand for point to point is still growing. DL's advantage in using Logan to leverage into Europe is useful, and if B6 does announce TATL service, it should help them grow connecting pax as well. However, B6 is still going to be seen as more of a leisure airline unless you regularly commute between Mint destinations. And as such, DL has the advantage.

I'm still surprised how many Star Alliance carriers serve BOS without much help from UA, who (post-CO) have dropped everything but their key hubs (CLE the most recent victim). Not that I'm complaining about the international options as I have the most loyalty to *A as a passenger. B6 has convenience, WN has flexibility, and DL has been surprisingly upping their game though, so I'm starting to wonder if that loyalty won't change over time.


I don't think Delta as a whole really cares about B6 though. Seems more like a United/NK thing.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 1960
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Pilot/Neeleman Coup d'etat

Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:26 am

The Pilots WANT Neeleman back super bad.

I could see the pilot union acting in cohorts with Neeleman/Moxy to enable a coup d'etat. Judging from their allegiance to him and absolutely distaste with current management, I could totally see it.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
strfyr51
Posts: 3937
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:28 am

EA CO AS wrote:
I can’t see any of the Big 3 legacies acquiring B6; they’re all large in the NY area in different ways, meaning the DOJ would want so much divested that the deal wouldn’t be worth it.

Should B6 end up with anyone, your logical suitors are AS, F9, or NK, although SY would be an interesting possibility. You can all but rule out both HA and WN, though.

Why would you rule out Hawaiian? They have A321's and Long range widebodies on order. They could partner up with JBLU and be one "Jim Dandy" of a carrier !
Though they would need a Western and/or Midwest USA Hub to compliment HNL and JFK to be able to branch out on the order of maybe UA's Denver hub for a lot of feed to an East-West Network. I realize they can't do it all at Once but Rome wasn't built in a day either, When I started at UAL we had 322 airplanes and the IAD hub hadn't been established yet. UA built that hub and much more so I know it CAN be done.. The question is? Can they Man up and do it?
 
spacecadet
Posts: 3463
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

Re: Pilot/Neeleman Coup d'etat

Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:48 am

Varsity1 wrote:
The Pilots WANT Neeleman back super bad.

I could see the pilot union acting in cohorts with Neeleman/Moxy to enable a coup d'etat. Judging from their allegiance to him and absolutely distaste with current management, I could totally see it.


In what fantasy world would there even be a mechanism to enable this?

I support unions, but they don't have a say in who gets to be chairman/CEO. They have no ownership of the company. Only the shareholders do. Unions exist to get the best deal they can for their members from the management. They have no input in who gets to be management.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
strfyr51
Posts: 3937
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Pilot/Neeleman Coup d'etat

Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:54 am

spacecadet wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
The Pilots WANT Neeleman back super bad.

I could see the pilot union acting in cohorts with Neeleman/Moxy to enable a coup d'etat. Judging from their allegiance to him and absolutely distaste with current management, I could totally see it.


In what fantasy world would there even be a mechanism to enable this?

I support unions, but they don't have a say in who gets to be chairman/CEO. They have no ownership of the company. Only the shareholders do. Unions exist to get the best deal they can for their members from the management. They have no input in who gets to be management.

Why would they even DO that?
 
CaptCoolHand
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:24 pm

Re: Pilot/Neeleman Coup d'etat

Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:57 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
The Pilots WANT Neeleman back super bad.

I could see the pilot union acting in cohorts with Neeleman/Moxy to enable a coup d'etat. Judging from their allegiance to him and absolutely distaste with current management, I could totally see it.



No...
The pilots Do NOT want David back.
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: B6 Situation

Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:22 pm

I don't see a WN or NK merger. Trying to merge the 2 airlines with 2 business model would be a cash black hole. AS maybe down the road and HA as an outside chance, but not likely. And Possibly Moxy once it's up and going.

Still, B6 might just remain a niche player if management is willing to fight off the Wall Street wolves that want never ending super growth, mergers, and ever rising profit margins. The ULCC is all the rage of Wall Street until the next downturn when suddenly trips with the kiddies to Mikey or to see Aunt Hazel and Uncle Jimmy are out. People forget how bad it was with the legacies back in 2008/2009, offering Double and triple EQMs to try to stimulate demand.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 1960
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: Pilot/Neeleman Coup d'etat

Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:39 am

CaptCoolHand wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
The Pilots WANT Neeleman back super bad.

I could see the pilot union acting in cohorts with Neeleman/Moxy to enable a coup d'etat. Judging from their allegiance to him and absolutely distaste with current management, I could totally see it.



No...
The pilots Do NOT want David back.



Yes they absolutely do. Check out APC. Neeleman knew what he was doing and the pilots respect that.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos