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VS11
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:44 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Are any used A330-300's available?

Even today it's almost the perfect TATL aircraft.


The A330 is too big for JetBlue, and generally more difficult to fill in during the winter.

The 321 is better fitted for JetBlue as it is cheaper to operate even if half-full during the winter.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:45 pm

FlyinRabbit88 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Are any used A330-300's available?

Even today it's almost the perfect TATL aircraft.

Actually could make the announcement of Thomas Cook UK being up for sale an interesting one. They have 9 A330s and 19 A321s. With Jetblue CEO having UK citizenship, a play to buy whatever Thomas Cook UK had to offer, from slots to A/C, it could be a big leap into Europe Ops.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-thoma ... KKCN1PW0I9

https://mlexmarketinsight.com/insights- ... -uncertain



I don't think Jetblue can buy Thomas cook just because the CEO has Uk citizenship. Then shareholders would have to be 51% uk.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
VS11
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:49 pm

FlyinRabbit88 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Are any used A330-300's available?

Even today it's almost the perfect TATL aircraft.

Actually could make the announcement of Thomas Cook UK being up for sale an interesting one. They have 9 A330s and 19 A321s. With Jetblue CEO having UK citizenship, a play to buy whatever Thomas Cook UK had to offer, from slots to A/C, it could be a big leap into Europe Ops.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-thoma ... KKCN1PW0I9

https://mlexmarketinsight.com/insights- ... -uncertain


I don’t see jetBlue going for Thomas Cook Airline - too radical of a move for them. Besides, I don’t see the strategic relevance for them.

Virgin Atlantic on the other hand I can see being interested for Virgin Holidays.
 
FlyinRabbit88
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:52 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
FlyinRabbit88 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Are any used A330-300's available?

Even today it's almost the perfect TATL aircraft.

Actually could make the announcement of Thomas Cook UK being up for sale an interesting one. They have 9 A330s and 19 A321s. With Jetblue CEO having UK citizenship, a play to buy whatever Thomas Cook UK had to offer, from slots to A/C, it could be a big leap into Europe Ops.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-thoma ... KKCN1PW0I9

https://mlexmarketinsight.com/insights- ... -uncertain



I don't think Jetblue can buy Thomas cook just because the CEO has Uk citizenship. Then shareholders would have to be 51% uk.


From the article linked above
“UK airlines could be controlled by foreign investors after Brexit, under government plans to scrap EU rules that restrict the ownership and control of carriers by nationality.

The step will enable airlines to establish subsidiaries in the UK, and have them designated as UK carriers, subject only to restrictions of technical and financial fitness.

The change makes the UK one of the first countries in the world to drop nationality restrictions.”
 
FlyinRabbit88
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:57 pm

VS11 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Are any used A330-300's available?

Even today it's almost the perfect TATL aircraft.


The A330 is too big for JetBlue, and generally more difficult to fill in during the winter.

The 321 is better fitted for JetBlue as it is cheaper to operate even if half-full during the winter.


How is the A330 too big? We all know if Jetblue does go to Europe and it works they will probably up gauge to widebodies like the 330 (350 is too big).
Besides, with demand and loads to the DR from JFK, it wouldn’t really be a problem filling it.
 
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LuxuryTravelled
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:04 pm

I really doubt B6 are really in the game for spending £2bn on Thomas Cook Airline Group (the going asking price).
 
VS11
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:15 pm

FlyinRabbit88 wrote:
VS11 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Are any used A330-300's available?

Even today it's almost the perfect TATL aircraft.


The A330 is too big for JetBlue, and generally more difficult to fill in during the winter.

The 321 is better fitted for JetBlue as it is cheaper to operate even if half-full during the winter.


How is the A330 too big? We all know if Jetblue does go to Europe and it works they will probably up gauge to widebodies like the 330 (350 is too big).
Besides, with demand and loads to the DR from JFK, it wouldn’t really be a problem filling it.


The А330 is twice as heavy as the A321. It would make no sense for them to get the A330. The entire premise of jetBlue going TATL is to use lighter and cheaper to operate aircraft especially during the slow months of a winter. They are not trying to dump capacity on the market but offer a competitive value product. Better to have more legroom on A321 than be cramped on A330/B767/777/787. I have flown AA 757 Philly to AMS and it was more comfortable than AA 787 because of better legroom.
 
flyby519
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:38 pm

Blueknows wrote:
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-thomas-cook-grp-outlook-idUKKCN1PW0I9
PLANES AND SLOTS


So is this what the April 10th event is for? That would seem odd, "We bought an airline! Lets party!"
 
MKIAZ
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:59 pm

VS11 wrote:
FlyinRabbit88 wrote:
VS11 wrote:

The A330 is too big for JetBlue, and generally more difficult to fill in during the winter.

The 321 is better fitted for JetBlue as it is cheaper to operate even if half-full during the winter.


How is the A330 too big? We all know if Jetblue does go to Europe and it works they will probably up gauge to widebodies like the 330 (350 is too big).
Besides, with demand and loads to the DR from JFK, it wouldn’t really be a problem filling it.


The А330 is twice as heavy as the A321. It would make no sense for them to get the A330. The entire premise of jetBlue going TATL is to use lighter and cheaper to operate aircraft especially during the slow months of a winter. They are not trying to dump capacity on the market but offer a competitive value product. Better to have more legroom on A321 than be cramped on A330/B767/777/787. I have flown AA 757 Philly to AMS and it was more comfortable than AA 787 because of better legroom.



Sure, lighter and cheaper AC to places like CPH/TXL/DUB/MAN makes perfect sense. LHR slots are at such a premium - and BOS/NYC-LHR is such a huge market, that B6 could easily fill a couple A330's with good yields (and plenty of premium pax) year round, no problems. And they could carry cargo.

I think B6 will start service with A321 though. It's also worth noting that the 787-10 seems to be built to basically kill everything else CASM-wise for Asia mid haul and mid-us/east-us to Europe. The only US airline that has them on order is United with 14.

While I think the A330 is more likely for B6, I wouldn't rule out the 787-10. They could easily use 6-8 in a premium heavy config on BOS-LHR, JFK-LHR, BOS-CDG, JFK-CDG, FLL-LHR, and possibly JFK-TLV, JFK-GRU, JFK-EZE, FLL-GRU, FLL-EZE.
 
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Polot
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:07 pm

JetBlue won’t buy the A330 right now not because it is too large or heavy but because it is too much risk. They will stick to the A321 for now. If the TATL experiment fails B6 can go back to just using the planes elsewhere in their network. If it fails with A330s then B6 are stuck with large planes that they have little use for. Buying wide bodies, then quickly shedding them at fire sale prices, is expensive. Just look what the A330s did to WOW.
 
VS11
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:12 pm

MKIAZ wrote:
VS11 wrote:
FlyinRabbit88 wrote:

How is the A330 too big? We all know if Jetblue does go to Europe and it works they will probably up gauge to widebodies like the 330 (350 is too big).
Besides, with demand and loads to the DR from JFK, it wouldn’t really be a problem filling it.


The А330 is twice as heavy as the A321. It would make no sense for them to get the A330. The entire premise of jetBlue going TATL is to use lighter and cheaper to operate aircraft especially during the slow months of a winter. They are not trying to dump capacity on the market but offer a competitive value product. Better to have more legroom on A321 than be cramped on A330/B767/777/787. I have flown AA 757 Philly to AMS and it was more comfortable than AA 787 because of better legroom.



Sure, lighter and cheaper AC to places like CPH/TXL/DUB/MAN makes perfect sense. LHR slots are at such a premium - and BOS/NYC-LHR is such a huge market, that B6 could easily fill a couple A330's with good yields (and plenty of premium pax) year round, no problems. And they could carry cargo.

I think B6 will start service with A321 though. It's also worth noting that the 787-10 seems to be built to basically kill everything else CASM-wise for Asia mid haul and mid-us/east-us to Europe. The only US airline that has them on order is United with 14.

While I think the A330 is more likely for B6, I wouldn't rule out the 787-10. They could easily use 6-8 in a premium heavy config on BOS-LHR, JFK-LHR, BOS-CDG, JFK-CDG, FLL-LHR, and possibly JFK-TLV, JFK-GRU, JFK-EZE, FLL-GRU, FLL-EZE.


Widebodies for jetBlue TATL is a sure path to bankrupty. Even DL 767 has a 60% LF on BOS-LHR, and B6 reach within the US is not as deep as Delta’s.
 
VS11
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:15 pm

Polot wrote:
JetBlue won’t buy the A330 right now not because it is too large or heavy but because it is too much risk. They will stick to the A321 for now. If the TATL experiment fails B6 can go back to just using the planes elsewhere in their network. If it fails with A330s then B6 are stuck with large planes that they have little use for. Buying wide bodies, then quickly shedding them at fire sale prices, is expensive. Just look what the A330s did to WOW.


The risk comes precisely from its large size. Also, they can lease 330’s, they don’t have to buy them, if they are just testing the market.
 
airbazar
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:16 pm

Stop with the A330 for B6 non-sense. Even airlines that already operate A330's are buying the A321 for TATL (EI, TP for now but most likely you'll see more in the long run including DL). Two A321's are cheaper and carry more pax than 1 A330, and we all know that premium passengers value frequencies. If slots are found, B6 will opt to fly 2x to LHR with A321 over 1x with A330 every single time.
 
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Polot
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:20 pm

VS11 wrote:
Polot wrote:
JetBlue won’t buy the A330 right now not because it is too large or heavy but because it is too much risk. They will stick to the A321 for now. If the TATL experiment fails B6 can go back to just using the planes elsewhere in their network. If it fails with A330s then B6 are stuck with large planes that they have little use for. Buying wide bodies, then quickly shedding them at fire sale prices, is expensive. Just look what the A330s did to WOW.


The risk comes precisely from its large size. Also, they can lease 330’s, they don’t have to buy them, if they are just testing the market.

Short term leasing can be very expensive, as is typically trying to break your lease. It also doesn’t solve the problem that B6 would have spent of a lot of money on training for pilots/maintenance/whatever for a plane they no longer have/need. There is no “cheap” solution for testing wide bodies outside of maybe wet leasing (but JetBlue’s crews would probably throw a fit over that), you really need to commit.
 
mattyfitzg
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:13 pm

VS11 wrote:
FlyinRabbit88 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Are any used A330-300's available?

Even today it's almost the perfect TATL aircraft.

Actually could make the announcement of Thomas Cook UK being up for sale an interesting one. They have 9 A330s and 19 A321s. With Jetblue CEO having UK citizenship, a play to buy whatever Thomas Cook UK had to offer, from slots to A/C, it could be a big leap into Europe Ops.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-thoma ... KKCN1PW0I9

https://mlexmarketinsight.com/insights- ... -uncertain


I don’t see jetBlue going for Thomas Cook Airline - too radical of a move for them. Besides, I don’t see the strategic relevance for them.

Virgin Atlantic on the other hand I can see being interested for Virgin Holidays.


I'd say you're probably spot on, but for arguments sake:

- Would give B6 instant access to hot slots at some key airports, LGW, MAN, BFS, GLA, DUS, OSL, ARN, HEL to name a couple.
- Instant access to A330's.
- A big foothold in the European market, with a dedicated repeat-customer base.
- They would absorb a lot of crew, and Thomas Cook Flight & Cabin crew are highly respected.
- Guaranteed % of seats filled/revenue from TCG holidays.

Of course, take it with a pinch of salt, but I think it B6 taking over TCX could actually have some credibility to it!
A bit of a restructure and B6 could do a little bit of magic with TCX in Europe.


Also with VS's recent investment in BE I think they will be kicking themselves that they probably can't/won't be able to commit to expanding VS Holidays with TCX.
 
VS11
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:53 pm

mattyfitzg wrote:
VS11 wrote:
FlyinRabbit88 wrote:
Actually could make the announcement of Thomas Cook UK being up for sale an interesting one. They have 9 A330s and 19 A321s. With Jetblue CEO having UK citizenship, a play to buy whatever Thomas Cook UK had to offer, from slots to A/C, it could be a big leap into Europe Ops.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-thoma ... KKCN1PW0I9

https://mlexmarketinsight.com/insights- ... -uncertain


I don’t see jetBlue going for Thomas Cook Airline - too radical of a move for them. Besides, I don’t see the strategic relevance for them.

Virgin Atlantic on the other hand I can see being interested for Virgin Holidays.


I'd say you're probably spot on, but for arguments sake:

- Would give B6 instant access to hot slots at some key airports, LGW, MAN, BFS, GLA, DUS, OSL, ARN, HEL to name a couple.
- Instant access to A330's.
- A big foothold in the European market, with a dedicated repeat-customer base.
- They would absorb a lot of crew, and Thomas Cook Flight & Cabin crew are highly respected.
- Guaranteed % of seats filled/revenue from TCG holidays.

Of course, take it with a pinch of salt, but I think it B6 taking over TCX could actually have some credibility to it!
A bit of a restructure and B6 could do a little bit of magic with TCX in Europe.


Also with VS's recent investment in BE I think they will be kicking themselves that they probably can't/won't be able to commit to expanding VS Holidays with TCX.


What you are saying would be true for any airline buying TCX. The question is how it fits into overall strategy . Even if we assume jetBlue wants to have a European network, Brexit is still a huge question mark in terms of rights from the UK to Europe. As a whole company, TCX makes sense for a British airline buyer - not so much for US or EU buyers. A financial buyer from anywhere could parcel out the assets for sure.
 
heavymetal
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:38 pm

tphuang wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
tphuang wrote:

I'm just providing what's public available on BTS fare data. BOS-ATL is a bloodbath and that's obvious to anyone looking at the market. It was a very really profitable market for DL and now it probably looses money for them. Same with BOS-MSP. Take it for what you will. You asked me to provide data and I have.


I think you maybe getting a little too upset here. I simply said if B6 entering BOS/JFK-AMS has the kind of impact that BOS-ATL/MSP did, it would be hugely problematic for DL.


and I simply pointing out that lower fares today compared to two years ago doesnt necessarily mean they are losing money hand over fist, like you suggest. It could mean a thousand diff things.


That's fine. I actually don't think they are loosing a lot of money on those 2 routes. But they have gone from been super profitable to 2 markets that I think they are loosing money on. That's a huge drop in revenue (probably > $100 million a year). B6 is actually loosing a lot of money on BOS-ATL. That shouldn't be a surprise. And if DL sees similar drop in their Europe operation, wall street investors are going to ask questions. Nowhere did I say that's what will happen. I simply said that would be a terrible result if it did happen.


Lots of good arguments in these posts, but please, for the love of all that is holy, it is lose, with one O. Loose means "something that is not tight".

While your points are valid for BOS-ATL and BOS-MSP, where B6 came in with relatively decent frequency and a fine product, I'm not convinced that it's a good apples-to-apples comparison for markets like LHR and AMS. I personally think B6 will need to offer a lot more than a handful of Mint suites and a few frequencies in order to truly impact DL's financials.

I would also note that if B6 is losing so much money on BOS-ATL (as you say) due to competition with DL, then imagine how much they might lose in the transatlantic markets with all of the competitors in that market. Wall Street will "ask questions" of B6 far quicker than they will ask questions of DL.
 
Blueknows
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:37 am

Moreover, this is not an academic or theoretical issue for JetBlue. New aircraft developments make it possible for JetBlue to serve western Europe from its northeastern United States focus cities. Primera Air and other carriers have already proven that the A321neo can be used to serve transatlantic routes and the first A321LR was recently certified and delivered to Arkia in Israel. JetBlue’s first A321neo aircraft is due for delivery in 2019 and JetBlue has options to convert future deliveries to the A321LR variant. However, at the recent IATA Slot Conference in Madrid, several European airport slot allocation officials informed JetBlue representatives to “not bother” submitting further routine slot requests at concentrated airports. This statement is indicative of the reasons the Department must examine slot dynamics at constrained European airports where the Joint Applicants are seeking expanded immunity.
 
WeatherPilot
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:10 am

FlyinRabbit88 wrote:
VS11 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Are any used A330-300's available?

Even today it's almost the perfect TATL aircraft.


The A330 is too big for JetBlue, and generally more difficult to fill in during the winter.

The 321 is better fitted for JetBlue as it is cheaper to operate even if half-full during the winter.


How is the A330 too big? We all know if Jetblue does go to Europe and it works they will probably up gauge to widebodies like the 330 (350 is too big).
Besides, with demand and loads to the DR from JFK, it wouldn’t really be a problem filling it.


I've always wondered if the A310 was still around if Jetblue would be interested in a fleet of those instead of jumping right to the A330.
 
stlgph
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:25 am

heavymetal wrote:
tphuang wrote:
jumbojet wrote:

and I simply pointing out that lower fares today compared to two years ago doesnt necessarily mean they are losing money hand over fist, like you suggest. It could mean a thousand diff things.


That's fine. I actually don't think they are loosing a lot of money on those 2 routes. But they have gone from been super profitable to 2 markets that I think they are loosing money on. That's a huge drop in revenue (probably > $100 million a year). B6 is actually loosing a lot of money on BOS-ATL. That shouldn't be a surprise. And if DL sees similar drop in their Europe operation, wall street investors are going to ask questions. Nowhere did I say that's what will happen. I simply said that would be a terrible result if it did happen.


Lots of good arguments in these posts, but please, for the love of all that is holy, it is lose, with one O. Loose means "something that is not tight".

While your points are valid for BOS-ATL and BOS-MSP, where B6 came in with relatively decent frequency and a fine product, I'm not convinced that it's a good apples-to-apples comparison for markets like LHR and AMS. I personally think B6 will need to offer a lot more than a handful of Mint suites and a few frequencies in order to truly impact DL's financials.

I would also note that if B6 is losing so much money on BOS-ATL (as you say) due to competition with DL, then imagine how much they might lose in the transatlantic markets with all of the competitors in that market. Wall Street will "ask questions" of B6 far quicker than they will ask questions of DL.


It's nothing but a constant thread of postings about how Delta loses money on every route they fly. Honest to God, add all of them up at Delta's Atlanta to Birmingham must make $100 million a day or something and floats the entire network.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
lowfareair
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:35 am

airbazar wrote:
Stop with the A330 for B6 non-sense. Even airlines that already operate A330's are buying the A321 for TATL (EI, TP for now but most likely you'll see more in the long run including DL). Two A321's are cheaper and carry more pax than 1 A330, and we all know that premium passengers value frequencies. If slots are found, B6 will opt to fly 2x to LHR with A321 over 1x with A330 every single time.


But B6 would likely want to operate 2 a330s over 2 A321s if they could only get 2 slotpairs. That's the issue. With good slot times going for close to 50m GBP per pair (not to mention needing to find an airline willing to give them up), it makes sense to put on a widebody aircraft eventually once the route has proven itself. That allows for 50% more passengers and close to double the cargo without trying to pry more slots away from airlines. The question would become where else can B6 fly those planes profitably?
 
wnflyguy
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:23 am

IF jetBlue wants to expand into Europe.
I Think a JetBlue hook up with Thomas Cook would work great.
Take a revamped Thomas Cook rebrand it as JetBlueEU. Take Thomas Cooks prime slots and available staffing Make it the European sister company.
JetBlue can use Thomas Cook to feed it's BOS,JFK,MCO and FLL hubs.
This would definitely speed up it's access to Europe vs the long lengthy ETOPS requirements in the short term.
Having a separate non union European work group would give JetBlue lower cost and more flexibility in the European markets.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
mattyfitzg
Posts: 167
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:42 am

wnflyguy wrote:
Having a separate non union European work group would give JetBlue lower cost and more flexibility in the European markets.



If by non-union you mean a workforce without a union, Thomas Cook staff work with Unite the union, trying to get rid of Unite would cause quite the s***storm, we all know how Unite are big fans of mass travel disruption :lol:
 
vtchaz78
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:47 pm

mattyfitzg wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
Having a separate non union European work group would give JetBlue lower cost and more flexibility in the European markets.



If by non-union you mean a workforce without a union, Thomas Cook staff work with Unite the union, trying to get rid of Unite would cause quite the s***storm, we all know how Unite are big fans of mass travel disruption :lol:


Also a complete non-starter with the JetBlue Pilot's current CBA. The Scope language is some of the best in the industry.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:28 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
IF jetBlue wants to expand into Europe.
I Think a JetBlue hook up with Thomas Cook would work great.


Flyguy


How many flights a say does Thomas Cook operate out of LHR?
 
tphuang
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:33 pm

heavymetal wrote:
tphuang wrote:
jumbojet wrote:

and I simply pointing out that lower fares today compared to two years ago doesnt necessarily mean they are losing money hand over fist, like you suggest. It could mean a thousand diff things.


That's fine. I actually don't think they are loosing a lot of money on those 2 routes. But they have gone from been super profitable to 2 markets that I think they are loosing money on. That's a huge drop in revenue (probably > $100 million a year). B6 is actually loosing a lot of money on BOS-ATL. That shouldn't be a surprise. And if DL sees similar drop in their Europe operation, wall street investors are going to ask questions. Nowhere did I say that's what will happen. I simply said that would be a terrible result if it did happen.


Lots of good arguments in these posts, but please, for the love of all that is holy, it is lose, with one O. Loose means "something that is not tight".

While your points are valid for BOS-ATL and BOS-MSP, where B6 came in with relatively decent frequency and a fine product, I'm not convinced that it's a good apples-to-apples comparison for markets like LHR and AMS. I personally think B6 will need to offer a lot more than a handful of Mint suites and a few frequencies in order to truly impact DL's financials.

I would also note that if B6 is losing so much money on BOS-ATL (as you say) due to competition with DL, then imagine how much they might lose in the transatlantic markets with all of the competitors in that market. Wall Street will "ask questions" of B6 far quicker than they will ask questions of DL.


I think you misread what I wrote in there. See below

"if DL sees similar drop in their Europe operation, wall street investors are going to ask questions. Nowhere did I say that's what will happen."

In the end, we don't know for sure if April 10th will be LHR announcement or if it is, how they are going to get the slots. Until we get more details like what kind of product they will have, their schedule and if they will fly to anywhere other than LHR, it's kind of too early to say much more than "they need to fly to LHR and have the point of sale at JFK/BOS to make it work". That's something I've said for a long time, they need to fly JFK/BOS-LHR. They basically cannot lose money on any routes greater than 500 miles out of JFK with any semblance of demand.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2769
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:53 pm

this thread viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1417105 (DL/VS/KL/AF announce extensive code share) was posted 11 hours ago. I bet you dollars to donuts that this is how Blue is getting their slot(s) into LHR. DOT probably replied to Blues cry baby letter and is forcing DL/VS etc to give up something to Blue. The timing makes sense with Blue's April 10th announcement and DL/VS/KL/AF announcement. If true, the question remains, how many slots and what times? From what I can tell, Thomas cook doesnt even fly into LHR so I dont see how buying Thomas Cook helps
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:22 pm

MKIAZ wrote:
While I think the A330 is more likely for B6, I wouldn't rule out the 787-10. They could easily use 6-8 in a premium heavy config on BOS-LHR, JFK-LHR, BOS-CDG, JFK-CDG, FLL-LHR, and possibly JFK-TLV, JFK-GRU, JFK-EZE, FLL-GRU, FLL-EZE.


Where else would B6 use 787-10s? Six-8 is nowhere near enough to support a widebody type. Think 15-18.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:34 pm

there's an article in the UK independent today about this.

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/ne ... 07996.html

Not sure there is anything new here - they are suggesting:

  • Launch from BOS and JFK as the only two US hubs.
  • UK destination either LGW or STN.
  • Service starting late 2019
  • Flying A321LR
 
impilot
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:50 pm

jumbojet wrote:
this thread viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1417105 (DL/VS/KL/AF announce extensive code share) was posted 11 hours ago. I bet you dollars to donuts that this is how Blue is getting their slot(s) into LHR. DOT probably replied to Blues cry baby letter and is forcing DL/VS etc to give up something to Blue. The timing makes sense with Blue's April 10th announcement and DL/VS/KL/AF announcement. If true, the question remains, how many slots and what times? From what I can tell, Thomas cook doesnt even fly into LHR so I dont see how buying Thomas Cook helps

“Crybaby” letter eh? On what planet is asking for a JV review and asking for a slot at an airport being a crybaby? What else could B6 have done if they wanted to go to Europe? In some posts you cry about B6 trying to go to Europe, in others you boast it won’t be a blip on the legacies’ radar. If that’s the case why are you so triggered? Was or was not your precious DL trying to do the same exact thing with Haneda? Need a safe space buddy?
 
by738
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:04 pm

Richard28 wrote:
Not sure there is anything new here

Think the suggestion of it being LGW STN and not LHR is new if you look through all the previous posts who seem to think LHR was a dead cert
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:13 pm

Richard28 wrote:
there's an article in the UK independent today about this.

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/ne ... 07996.html


Quote from the Independent:

The following day, Hayes is due to speak at the Aviation Club in London


Seems to me the only reason Hayes would be at the Aviation Club is to discuss something London-related.

jumbojet wrote:
this thread viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1417105 (DL/VS/KL/AF announce extensive code share) was posted 11 hours ago. I bet you dollars to donuts that this is how Blue is getting their slot(s) into LHR. DOT probably replied to Blues cry baby letter and is forcing DL/VS etc to give up something to Blue. The timing makes sense with Blue's April 10th announcement and DL/VS/KL/AF announcement. If true, the question remains, how many slots and what times? From what I can tell, Thomas cook doesnt even fly into LHR so I dont see how buying Thomas Cook helps


I got a $5 JetBlue Dunkin Donuts card as a gift for being on the inaugural BOS-PSP flight... :bouncy:
 
SeanM1997
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:24 pm

Richard28 wrote:
there's an article in the UK independent today about this.

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/ne ... 07996.html

Not sure there is anything new here - they are suggesting:

  • Launch from BOS and JFK as the only two US hubs.
  • UK destination either LGW or STN.
  • Service starting late 2019
  • Flying A321LR


Robert Hayes basically said, if they want to target business passengers then they need to be at London Heathrow. If they want to optimize schedules then Gatwick or Stansted would initially be better. I would be surprised if the route did not go to London Heathrow - there is always a way to find slots for transatlantic flights
 
WeatherPilot
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:24 pm

Maybe they’ll announce a heavy mint configuration on the A220 to LCY. I think it’s doable.
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:25 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
Maybe they’ll announce a heavy mint configuration on the A220 to LCY. I think it’s doable.


You want to spend 6+ hours in an CRJ clone?
 
vtchaz78
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:29 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
Maybe they’ll announce a heavy mint configuration on the A220 to LCY. I think it’s doable.


You want to spend 6+ hours in an CRJ clone?


You clearly have never been on one. The Cabin is almost the same width as an Airbus, giving each passenger MORE room. It's a great aircraft and however JetBlue configures them, it's going to be the best product on whatever route it flies.
 
impilot
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:42 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
Maybe they’ll announce a heavy mint configuration on the A220 to LCY. I think it’s doable.


You want to spend 6+ hours in an CRJ clone?


Lol are you serious?
 
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Richard28
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:45 pm

SeanM1997 wrote:
Robert Hayes basically said, if they want to target business passengers then they need to be at London Heathrow. If they want to optimize schedules then Gatwick or Stansted would initially be better. I would be surprised if the route did not go to London Heathrow - there is always a way to find slots for transatlantic flights


He may have said that elsewhere, but in the article I linked to he basically says that whilst LGW and STN have not worked for other carriers, they could work for JetBlue, because it is a trusted brand, has a network behind both New York and Boston, they are not starting from zero and have a relevance state side previous carriers had not.

Unless they pay a big premium for them, they will not get LHR slots. Paying a premium price (in particular for timings to make JFK/BOS work, let alone frequencies) will increase risk and arguably not be financially viable on the limited capacity/returns of a A321LR flight (without increasing prices).

They will not get any from DL/VS who are tiny in comparison to BA/AA at LHR - so would make no sense from competition point of view - that would just make BA/AA more dominant.
 
flyby519
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:53 pm

vtchaz78 wrote:
mattyfitzg wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
Having a separate non union European work group would give JetBlue lower cost and more flexibility in the European markets.



If by non-union you mean a workforce without a union, Thomas Cook staff work with Unite the union, trying to get rid of Unite would cause quite the s***storm, we all know how Unite are big fans of mass travel disruption :lol:


Also a complete non-starter with the JetBlue Pilot's current CBA. The Scope language is some of the best in the industry.


I’m not sure how union representation would work with ALPA/Unite in a merger, but the pilot groups could be on the same seniority list even if the new company operates the certificates separately. Think of something like Republic/Shuttle/Chautauqua here in the US. Bidding between certificates may be sticky since most US pilots don’t have JAA ratings and vice versa.
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:01 pm

[See edited reply in post #292]
Last edited by Dieuwer on Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:09 pm, edited 4 times in total.
 
impilot
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:04 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
vtchaz78 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:

You want to spend 6+ hours in an CRJ clone?


You clearly have never been on one. The Cabin is almost the same width as an Airbus, giving each passenger MORE room. It's a great aircraft and however JetBlue configures them, it's going to be the best product on whatever route it flies.


I see some airlines wanting to cram 5 or 6 seats per row...


It’s designed to have 5 across with the industry’s widest seats. You should probably google A220 seatmaps and interiors. It’s not a CRJ. It’s not even remotely similar to a CRJ. In any way.
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:08 pm

impilot wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
vtchaz78 wrote:

You clearly have never been on one. The Cabin is almost the same width as an Airbus, giving each passenger MORE room. It's a great aircraft and however JetBlue configures them, it's going to be the best product on whatever route it flies.


I see some airlines wanting to cram 5 or 6 seats per row...


It’s designed to have 5 across with the industry’s widest seats. You should probably google A220 seatmaps and interiors. It’s not a CRJ. It’s not even remotely similar to a CRJ. In any way.


You're right. It actually looks a lot like a DC-9 or MD-80 (Also had 2-3 seating).
 
heavymetal
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:19 pm

tphuang wrote:
heavymetal wrote:
tphuang wrote:

That's fine. I actually don't think they are loosing a lot of money on those 2 routes. But they have gone from been super profitable to 2 markets that I think they are loosing money on. That's a huge drop in revenue (probably > $100 million a year). B6 is actually loosing a lot of money on BOS-ATL. That shouldn't be a surprise. And if DL sees similar drop in their Europe operation, wall street investors are going to ask questions. Nowhere did I say that's what will happen. I simply said that would be a terrible result if it did happen.


Lots of good arguments in these posts, but please, for the love of all that is holy, it is lose, with one O. Loose means "something that is not tight".

While your points are valid for BOS-ATL and BOS-MSP, where B6 came in with relatively decent frequency and a fine product, I'm not convinced that it's a good apples-to-apples comparison for markets like LHR and AMS. I personally think B6 will need to offer a lot more than a handful of Mint suites and a few frequencies in order to truly impact DL's financials.

I would also note that if B6 is losing so much money on BOS-ATL (as you say) due to competition with DL, then imagine how much they might lose in the transatlantic markets with all of the competitors in that market. Wall Street will "ask questions" of B6 far quicker than they will ask questions of DL.


I think you misread what I wrote in there. See below

"if DL sees similar drop in their Europe operation, wall street investors are going to ask questions. Nowhere did I say that's what will happen."

In the end, we don't know for sure if April 10th will be LHR announcement or if it is, how they are going to get the slots. Until we get more details like what kind of product they will have, their schedule and if they will fly to anywhere other than LHR, it's kind of too early to say much more than "they need to fly to LHR and have the point of sale at JFK/BOS to make it work". That's something I've said for a long time, they need to fly JFK/BOS-LHR. They basically cannot lose money on any routes greater than 500 miles out of JFK with any semblance of demand.


I don't think I misread the statement. "If DL sees a similar drop in their European operation, wall street investors are going to ask questions." I understand you may not believe that's what will actually happen, but I'm saying is that you can rest assured that if B6's arrival into the transatlantic market disrupts DL's European operation that much, you can bet it will be a bloodbath for B6 as well (much like BOS-ATL as you note) - which will be far more impactful on B6's earnings - and Wall Street will force B6's hand far before DL's.

I'm curious why you think JetBlue needs to fly JFK/BOS - LHR? And how you arrive at the assertion that "they basically cannot lose money on routes greater than 500 miles out of JFK with any semblance of demand"?
 
NYCSKYGUY
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:26 pm

I think the timing would lend itself to being a 321LR. Why would b6 have waited this long if it weren't for the production of the 321LR. It certainly appears to be the perfect plane to start service with. The airline was built around the 320 platform, they have intimate knowledge of it from MX to Pilots and FA's. Launch Europe with the 321LR, get a feel for the market and from there add larger aircraft if needed having had a year or two of the flying under their belt.
 
SeanM1997
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:26 pm

There are 3 slots available for London Heathrow to New York JFK in W19. I would feel confident that JetBlue are after them

https://www.mazars.co.uk/Home/Services/ ... nes-Iberia
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:27 pm

heavymetal wrote:
tphuang wrote:
heavymetal wrote:

Lots of good arguments in these posts, but please, for the love of all that is holy, it is lose, with one O. Loose means "something that is not tight".

While your points are valid for BOS-ATL and BOS-MSP, where B6 came in with relatively decent frequency and a fine product, I'm not convinced that it's a good apples-to-apples comparison for markets like LHR and AMS. I personally think B6 will need to offer a lot more than a handful of Mint suites and a few frequencies in order to truly impact DL's financials.

I would also note that if B6 is losing so much money on BOS-ATL (as you say) due to competition with DL, then imagine how much they might lose in the transatlantic markets with all of the competitors in that market. Wall Street will "ask questions" of B6 far quicker than they will ask questions of DL.


I think you misread what I wrote in there. See below

"if DL sees similar drop in their Europe operation, wall street investors are going to ask questions. Nowhere did I say that's what will happen."

In the end, we don't know for sure if April 10th will be LHR announcement or if it is, how they are going to get the slots. Until we get more details like what kind of product they will have, their schedule and if they will fly to anywhere other than LHR, it's kind of too early to say much more than "they need to fly to LHR and have the point of sale at JFK/BOS to make it work". That's something I've said for a long time, they need to fly JFK/BOS-LHR. They basically cannot lose money on any routes greater than 500 miles out of JFK with any semblance of demand.


I don't think I misread the statement. "If DL sees a similar drop in their European operation, wall street investors are going to ask questions." I understand you may not believe that's what will actually happen, but I'm saying is that you can rest assured that if B6's arrival into the transatlantic market disrupts DL's European operation that much, you can bet it will be a bloodbath for B6 as well (much like BOS-ATL as you note) - which will be far more impactful on B6's earnings - and Wall Street will force B6's hand far before DL's.

I'm curious why you think JetBlue needs to fly JFK/BOS - LHR? And how you arrive at the assertion that "they basically cannot lose money on routes greater than 500 miles out of JFK with any semblance of demand"?


1) Why should JetBlue stay out of BOS/JFK-LHR? To give DL higher yields? You might as well argue the reverse: DL should stay out of BOS/JFK-LHR so JetBlue gets the higher yields. :roll:
2) Who's to say yields actually become trash on BOS/JFK-LHR? J fares are skyhigh as they are. Yields are probably very good. Thus, even with a new entrant, yields would probably still be good.
3) If JetBlue can make BOS/JFK-LAX work really well, why not LHR? Note that DL also flies BOS/JFK-LAX.
 
airbazar
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:53 pm

lowfareair wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Stop with the A330 for B6 non-sense. Even airlines that already operate A330's are buying the A321 for TATL (EI, TP for now but most likely you'll see more in the long run including DL). Two A321's are cheaper and carry more pax than 1 A330, and we all know that premium passengers value frequencies. If slots are found, B6 will opt to fly 2x to LHR with A321 over 1x with A330 every single time.


But B6 would likely want to operate 2 a330s over 2 A321s if they could only get 2 slotpairs. That's the issue. With good slot times going for close to 50m GBP per pair (not to mention needing to find an airline willing to give them up), it makes sense to put on a widebody aircraft eventually once the route has proven itself. That allows for 50% more passengers and close to double the cargo without trying to pry more slots away from airlines. The question would become where else can B6 fly those planes profitably?


And operating a 2-3 frame fleet of A330's for only this route is a smart idea how? There's absolutely no other route in their network where B6 needs an A330.
Also, remember that LHR slots are monetized. You never lose money on them and they only gain value over time. Unlike an A330 which like cars will only lose money the day you drive it off the lot. There is nothing wrong about operating narrow bodies at LHR. The majority of flights are LHR are operated by narrowbodies. There are countless airlines operating narrowbodies at LHR. This idea that it's somehow a bad idea for B6 to do it just doesn't seem logical.
 
tphuang
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:08 pm

heavymetal wrote:
tphuang wrote:
heavymetal wrote:

Lots of good arguments in these posts, but please, for the love of all that is holy, it is lose, with one O. Loose means "something that is not tight".

While your points are valid for BOS-ATL and BOS-MSP, where B6 came in with relatively decent frequency and a fine product, I'm not convinced that it's a good apples-to-apples comparison for markets like LHR and AMS. I personally think B6 will need to offer a lot more than a handful of Mint suites and a few frequencies in order to truly impact DL's financials.

I would also note that if B6 is losing so much money on BOS-ATL (as you say) due to competition with DL, then imagine how much they might lose in the transatlantic markets with all of the competitors in that market. Wall Street will "ask questions" of B6 far quicker than they will ask questions of DL.


I think you misread what I wrote in there. See below

"if DL sees similar drop in their Europe operation, wall street investors are going to ask questions. Nowhere did I say that's what will happen."

In the end, we don't know for sure if April 10th will be LHR announcement or if it is, how they are going to get the slots. Until we get more details like what kind of product they will have, their schedule and if they will fly to anywhere other than LHR, it's kind of too early to say much more than "they need to fly to LHR and have the point of sale at JFK/BOS to make it work". That's something I've said for a long time, they need to fly JFK/BOS-LHR. They basically cannot lose money on any routes greater than 500 miles out of JFK with any semblance of demand.


I don't think I misread the statement. "If DL sees a similar drop in their European operation, wall street investors are going to ask questions." I understand you may not believe that's what will actually happen, but I'm saying is that you can rest assured that if B6's arrival into the transatlantic market disrupts DL's European operation that much, you can bet it will be a bloodbath for B6 as well (much like BOS-ATL as you note) - which will be far more impactful on B6's earnings - and Wall Street will force B6's hand far before DL's.

this goes back to the start of back and forth between jumbojet and I where he equated AMS/LHR to ATL/MSP. And I was simply telling him BOS-ATL/MSP aren't exactly highlights of DL system right now. And I'm going to wait until another month and see if this is actually their plan before getting more into it. There has been enough a.net threads on JetBlue + Europe that yielded nothing.

I'm curious why you think JetBlue needs to fly JFK/BOS - LHR? And how you arrive at the assertion that "they basically cannot lose money on routes greater than 500 miles out of JFK with any semblance of demand"?

For the first part, they need to fly to LHR because it's the largest hole in their system out of JFK and BOS. There actually have several other significant holes out of JFK also (namely DFW), but i digress.

For the second part, that's based on fare and LF data we have from BTS. I have done an analysis of profitability of every market in B6 system. And that's my conclusion regarding to JetBlue at JFK.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:15 pm

Not trying to troll here, completely serious question/concern, why is everyone, including the company themselves obsessed with starting flights to Europe when they still don't serve a large chunk of the continental US, Hawaii, Canada, half of Central America, and deep South America?
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Jetblue “Save the Date” All Hands - April 10

Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:20 pm

They are not buying an airline

Aviation dudes letting your dreams get ahead of you

They Never grow more than 10 or 15 planes per year

They can barely run the operation they have now let alone a completely new airline with widebodies in a new region of the world!

What are you guys smoking? Seriously.
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