cledaybuck
Posts: 1371
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:07 pm

airplaneboy wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
This feels a lot like WN’s announcement of their intentions to serve Hawaii a couple of years ago.


WN announced plans to serve Hawai’i in October of 2017. Their ETOPS certification was delayed due to the government shutdown, and they commenced flights in March 2019. That’s 17 months... which is still about the average length for ETOPS certification despite the government delays.

So this is worse then? Although to be fair, WN already had the plane they were going to use (and thankfully for them, they didn't choose to open Hawaii with the MAX) while B6 has to order it.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1371
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:30 pm

jetbluefan1 wrote:
A few things that are for sure: this announcement separates B6 from WN, and especially NK and F9. Given their incredibly loyal following in NY and Boston, this is only a natural evolution and people will be very, very excited to try this out. And yes, it’s way overdue.

This isn't about separating themselves from WN (or NK or F9, lol). This is about serving their customers in NYC and BOS, and in that sense it is much more about airlines like DL/VS and AA/BA.
 
WaywardMemphian
Posts: 1181
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:05 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:40 pm

Hopefully they'll finally connect some Mid US missing dots like STL, MCI, MEM to BOS and JFK in time for these services
 
tphuang
Posts: 2757
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:41 pm

x1234 wrote:
Also there's some missing links in Latin America high yield J markets that they haven't launched probably due to competition. They need to start with JFK-SJO, JFK-BOG, JFK-PTY and JFK-LIM which is missing from their network!


Here are the distances of GYE/GEO vs the routes you mentioned

JFK GEO 154° (SE) 166° (S) 2,539 mi
JFK GYE 189° (S) 202° (S) 2,970 mi
JFK BOG 181° (S) 193° (S) 2,473 mi
JFK SJO 200° (S) 213° (SW) 2,204 mi
JFK PTY 191° (S) 203° (SW) 2,200 mi
JFK LIM 184° (S) 197° (S) 3,629 mi

I would think SJO/PTY can be done without A321NEO, but BOG definitely needs it and LIM might not be doable even with NEO due to the high elevations. I can't imagine them using a LR slot for JFK-LIM. SJO I think is more likely than PTY since they already fly there. But then again, if they think it was such a great opportunity, why haven't they added JFK-SJO already? PTY would be challenging since Copa makes a lot of stuff work based on the connections there. Not sure if B6 can compete with that, although that would depend on how many of JFK-PTY passengers are US originating.

For BOG, remember that A321NEO is getting delayed. I would imagine the just announced JFK-GYE/GEO will take up 2 of those NEOs and more will be needed to upgauge Florida routes or replace A320s so they can free up more slots at JFK and more A320s for BOS.

SunsetLimited wrote:
2021? Nothing like giving the competition even more time to up their game and make it even more difficult for B6.

What exactly could they do?
build up in BOS? DL already used up that trump card when they entered ATL.
build up at JFK? no slots and AA is retreating with what little it has
build up at FLL? not happening with AA at MIA
build up at MCO? B6 wouldn't be that upset about that
so all they can do is add a few flight, which DL already has done. Consider how few seats B6 has to fill out of BOS/JFK with A321LR vs WB and how much loyalty they have in BOS/JFK, it's hard to see how they can't fill the seats.

And by this time in 2021, DY might not be around anymore.
 
kimimm19
Posts: 252
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:34 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:46 pm

mutu wrote:
Some chatter in the financial district in London - MIGHT (might not) be LCY with A220s which would not require Shannon fuel stop. But I don't know whether that would still require an all J configuration? And going head to head with BA (who I am sure could blag a couple of A220s if they were up for a fight) with so many BA corporates on the LCY doorstep might be a bad idea!


It's always been about runway length though hasn't it?

Can't see that changing even with the cseries
 
tphuang
Posts: 2757
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:51 pm

winginit wrote:
I think today is the real kick-off for the next evolution of the LHR slot fight. Starting today, they can accompany their legal approaches with "we've announced service to London in a move that will benefit consumers with more choice at lower prices, and you (whomever that may be) not giving us slots is preventing that from being the reality that it could be". Not that it will get them anywhere, but they'll try.

there is also the proposal for 25,000 new slot a year at LHR, which I'm sure LSC folks are watching keenly. It's hard for me to see them not getting the 3 remedial slots that DL now has

That to me is the real reason DL launched to LGW. They don't have more LHR slots and they wanted to add more capacity in the market.

NYPECO wrote:
Will they have more European destinations in 2021 when they launch London? Otherwise I don't even see the point announcing this early.

Given that they converted 13 A321LRs, isn't it obvious they are going to launch London? How can they possibly hide that? As for other destinations, it's good to keep that under wrap until they are ready to launch them.

Dieuwer wrote:
I am completely underwhelmed by this announcement: 18 months from now is October 2020. Spring/summer 2021 is TWO YEARS from now!
A lot can happen in two years. The economy could have a complete melt down and JetBlue might go down with it.

18 months is needed just to have the planes delivered, they normally need 1 to 2 months to get them into revenue service and probably longer for an ETOPS plane. And on top of that, they probably want to do some proving run. And we are in Q1 2021, which is kind of the expectation all along.

winginit wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Or the competitors will start flying A321neoLR as well, and perhaps NMA/A322/etc some day as well.


This is, I think, a very important hypothetical that could easily become reality in the near term. Delta, just as an example, has 100 321neos on order that will start being delivered in 2020. This advance notice from B6 gives DL ample time to have a think on how they can respond competitively, and I think such a response includes the possibility of LRs being used across the Atlantic. DL has the ability to now pre-empt B6 at every step of their TATL endeavor.

you mean DL didn't know all along this was going to happen? If you and I can figure it out, you think DL has been in the dark until a month ago?

Have you seen the performance of DL at BOS on routes they don't dominate the other end? B6 is definitely not the one who should be concerned here. As for JFK, there is basically no route with enough O&D that B6 could not fill 1 or 2 flights profitably out of there.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 1651
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:57 pm

So sources saying JetBlue first few A220 will be ETOPS birds. Robin Hayes is said to be making a LCY announcement later today in London.
Each plane will be a 50/50 split Mint and Even more space seating for the LCY market.
6 daily flights 3 JFK and 3 BOS Monday-Friday and 1 and 1 on Saturday/Sunday.

Maybe JetBlue is being cheeky about 18 months for A321LR Etops. But with the A220 can speed up the process since it's a new aircraft out of the gate?

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:57 pm

Mint will be a huge challenge to AA and DL at LHR. I think B6 appeals to the business traveler time rushed not interested in lounges, particularly the young crowd that doesn't seem to have the "lounge fevor." BOS should also be a good station for B6 to London. It will be interesting to see if B6 tries to make Gatewick work for Mint.
 
EK77WNH
Posts: 95
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:42 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:59 pm

Did they actually say Q1 2021 or just 2021?
(Formerly ChrisNH)
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 23304
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:01 pm

Congrats to Jetblue it will be a nice product to have TATL.
 
werdywerd
Posts: 603
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:40 am

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:05 pm

EK77WNH wrote:
Did they actually say Q1 2021 or just 2021?


Robin Hayes said "We have a lot of work to do with-in the next 18 months to make this happen"

18 months from today is December 2020

First flight Jan-Mar 2021 makes sense with this timeline
 
flyby519
Posts: 1410
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:31 am

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:18 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
So sources saying JetBlue first few A220 will be ETOPS birds. Robin Hayes is said to be making a LCY announcement later today in London.
Each plane will be a 50/50 split Mint and Even more space seating for the LCY market.
6 daily flights 3 JFK and 3 BOS Monday-Friday and 1 and 1 on Saturday/Sunday.

Maybe JetBlue is being cheeky about 18 months for A321LR Etops. But with the A220 can speed up the process since it's a new aircraft out of the gate?

Flyguy


I’ll believe this when I see it. A220 will be non-Mint, ~140ish seats, and non-ETOPS. At least for the first few years.
 
tphuang
Posts: 2757
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:19 pm

jfk777 wrote:
JB flying a few A321neo to the UK, not earth shattering news. You are talking about adding the capacity of one Virgin Atlantic "beach fleet" 747-400 from JFK & Boston to Stansted. Norwegian is way more a "force" then Jetblue will be in this market. These are niche flights in markets full of 744, 777, 787 and A330's. Hey hoping JB can make it work but very limited capacity addition here to the UK market.

DY has no effect on premium market where legacies make their money.

3 B6 flights that will show up on all the corporate searches for BOS-LON is going to make legacies price match in J. If you don't think that's a big deal, I can't help you.

The basic premise here is they are adding not a lot of capacity, so they don't have to discount y that much ot fill the seats. But they are coming in with a much lower J pricing, which is change the premium market.

VS11 wrote:
I am disappointed for the lack of details. Like everyone else, I was expecting actual schedules announced with airports, intro fares, etc. I guess we are going to have to speculate for at least another year. Nevertheless, I think we should recognize that it is a big deal for jetBlue to launch all of these services. It definitely sets them apart from Southwest, Frontier, Spirit, Alaska, etc. I agree with other posters that they could be serving more than one London airport even though I personally don't think that getting LHR slots is going to be a problem for them.

Yes, they even said they could serve multiple London airport to have the right schedule.

jetwet1 wrote:
jetbluefan1 wrote:

Frankly, this announcement is very in line with B6’s nature. It confuses the heck out of competitors since it has some info but not anything specific other than “London”, a Mint 2.0 which will have more than 16 seats and feel like being on a “private plane” (I assume will be all-aisle access, but the aircraft will notbe all-Mint), and confirmation of conversion of 321neo’s to LR. Service will launch sometime in 2021, multiple times a day, from BOS and JFK.


As you can see from my post above, I am confident B6 will do well on these routes, but, let's be clear, this is not going to be a B6 love fest, the competition they will face on these routes will be like nothing they have seen before, the US majors, BA and VS will match their prices AND offer other incentives to keep their premium passengers on their jets rather than B6's.

I will say this again though, I think B6 can find enough people to fill the cabin each day, heck even the wife asked if these flights have an easy US west coast connection (meaning west coast-JFK/BOS-LON)....which with the times that have been posted here it looks like it is possible, so who knows, if the price is right, at least for some B6 fanatics (like my wife) a one stop is actually a viable alternative to a non stop.


of course, given how DL reacted to the mint expansion domestically (didn't work), it would be shocking if they didn't react to B6 entering such a lucrative route. But history has shown that a good product with great service and low cost will do well in the long run. And that's what mint is.

the part i'm eager to see is this "doubling down" of mint. How many seats that will be and which domestic routes will get it. It's too bad they didn't announce more on that.

EADSYABSOB73857 wrote:

I’m an aviation analyst on Wall Street for a major firm, and there are some significant aspects that differentiate jetBlue from a lot of other players in the industry: 1) their balance sheet; 2) their poise and pace at which they do things; 3) their relatively low prescriptive operational costs (this does not include costs associated with their delays, cancelations, etc as those factors are construed as non-planned); and perhaps most importantly 4) the large success of their Mint class and 4b) the cost impact that Mint has on other industry players. B6 is one of the most profitable airlines in the industry (based on margin and bottom line earnings) and while so many people are quick to criticize their slow pace of making announcements and business decisions, if we look at the opposite end of the spectrum (fast growth and hasty business decisions) we get- Primera, WOW, Norwegian... the list goes on. Now, I agree that jetBlue may not be the most efficiently managed company and drag their feet all too much and have missed big opportunities and opportune times. If there is an economic downtown in 2020 (which is projected by several analysts/Wall Street firms) this will have immense negative impact on B6’s ability to deliver on their expansion model, and inhibit their margin revenue.

Great points. I think people typically miss out on how low cost of a premium option mint class is. It's CASM is only 5 to 6% higher than 150 seat A320s it was replacing I've posted all the numbers on the JetBlue thread, but it's safe to say that the RASM gain they got was far higher than that. And more importantly, it absolutely killed legacy RASM. But here are a couple of route to think about

BOS-LAX, they have small presence in LAX vs competitors, but are now the yield leader on a route where all the legacies have strong presence at LAX and formidable presence at BOS. Mint has allowed them to run basically system average performance (8 or 9% margin based on my model) while everyone else lose money. Remember, this is a route all the legacies have now converted to lie flat to combat mint.

BOS-SFO, they have limited presence in SFO vs competition, but they are now only behind UA in average fares on this route. And if we factor in UA's connection traffic, they are probably close to even in yield. Again, they are running slightly above system average performance on a route that DL has now stopped offering D1 service and UA is loosing. Remember, this was a route UA dumped 7 flights of lie flat seating overnight to combat mint.

It's hard for me to think how any route could've transformed as much of these 2 routes have in the past 2 years after mint entrance and yet they are making money on them. All due to the low cost of mint. They are not going to offer their own lounge or offer excessive ground service or free upgrades. They are going for the most compact all-aisle access J seating possible on an A321NEO aircraft and that will be how they keep the cost down.

mutu wrote:
Some chatter in the financial district in London - MIGHT (might not) be LCY with A220s which would not require Shannon fuel stop. But I don't know whether that would still require an all J configuration? And going head to head with BA (who I am sure could blag a couple of A220s if they were up for a fight) with so many BA corporates on the LCY doorstep might be a bad idea!


They have said it's A321LR for Europe service, but quite a few of us have been speculating all-J A220. I think that would be the only way they can make it work given the LCY limitations.

Given how conservative B6 management is, I think we might be overly optimistic.
 
seansasLCY
Posts: 936
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:25 am

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:19 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
So sources saying JetBlue first few A220 will be ETOPS birds. Robin Hayes is said to be making a LCY announcement later today in London.
Each plane will be a 50/50 split Mint and Even more space seating for the LCY market.
6 daily flights 3 JFK and 3 BOS Monday-Friday and 1 and 1 on Saturday/Sunday.

Maybe JetBlue is being cheeky about 18 months for A321LR Etops. But with the A220 can speed up the process since it's a new aircraft out of the gate?

Flyguy


I don't think this is true. Robin is in London speaking at the Aviation Club lunch. In this article from yesterday https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ts-457376/ JetBlue chief commercial officer Marty St George tells FlightGlobal "The New York-based carrier says it is evaluating "multiple" airports in London for its service. "For commercial reasons we will hold that a bit closer to the vest, but we are confident we have a path into multiple London airports,"

That means its unlikely LCY would be announced today even if true. I know the A221 can make LCY-JFK in an all business class config but could it also make it with half economy?
 
seansasLCY
Posts: 936
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:25 am

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:30 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
mutu wrote:
Some chatter in the financial district in London - MIGHT (might not) be LCY with A220s which would not require Shannon fuel stop. But I don't know whether that would still require an all J configuration? And going head to head with BA (who I am sure could blag a couple of A220s if they were up for a fight) with so many BA corporates on the LCY doorstep might be a bad idea!


It's always been about runway length though hasn't it?

Can't see that changing even with the cseries


The A220 can make LCY-US East Coast non-stop (at least with a business class only config).
 
User avatar
LuxuryTravelled
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:06 am

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:34 pm

A220-300 can't fit on a stand at LCY, and B6 doesn't seem inclined to be changing that order. So I find that rumour, highly unlikely.
 
seansasLCY
Posts: 936
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:25 am

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:37 pm

LuxuryTravelled wrote:
A220-300 can't fit on a stand at LCY, and B6 doesn't seem inclined to be changing that order. So I find that rumour, highly unlikely.


LCY have said that they plan to certificate the A220-300 for operations at LCY. https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/busi ... 90795.html
 
EvanWSFO
Posts: 1034
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:22 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:42 pm

Gulfstream500 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
SunsetLimited wrote:
2021? Nothing like giving the competition even more time to up their game and make it even more difficult for B6.


This is the part that has me scratching my head as well. Was the idea to boost the stock price by telegraphing their strategy now, teasing a premium-heavy configuration?


Giving WN a head start?


Oh please God no. All we need is another long thread speculating about WN in the TATL market.
I have been on this site 15 years. A unrecoverable email account led me to starting over. Those of you who call me a rookie, you may stop ok?
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1314
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:48 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
So sources saying JetBlue first few A220 will be ETOPS birds. Robin Hayes is said to be making a LCY announcement later today in London.
Each plane will be a 50/50 split Mint and Even more space seating for the LCY market.
6 daily flights 3 JFK and 3 BOS Monday-Friday and 1 and 1 on Saturday/Sunday.

Maybe JetBlue is being cheeky about 18 months for A321LR Etops. But with the A220 can speed up the process since it's a new aircraft out of the gate?

Flyguy

Just because a plane is ETOPS , doesn’t mean the airline is, and no airline develops two ETOPS programs at the same time
 
impilot
Posts: 229
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:38 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:05 pm

seansasLCY wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
mutu wrote:
Some chatter in the financial district in London - MIGHT (might not) be LCY with A220s which would not require Shannon fuel stop. But I don't know whether that would still require an all J configuration? And going head to head with BA (who I am sure could blag a couple of A220s if they were up for a fight) with so many BA corporates on the LCY doorstep might be a bad idea!


It's always been about runway length though hasn't it?

Can't see that changing even with the cseries


The A220 can make LCY-US East Coast non-stop (at least with a business class only config).

And in the summer. I think the winter would be a challenge.
 
WeatherPilot
Posts: 412
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:51 am

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:15 pm

I don’t think this new service from B6 across the pond will steal that many pax from the bigs. This new service I think will create its own demand, coming from those who previously thought travel to Europe was out of their budget. With WOW now gone as well I doubt there is going to be much of a ‘war’.
 
tphuang
Posts: 2757
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:27 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
I don’t think this new service from B6 across the pond will steal that many pax from the bigs. This new service I think will create its own demand, coming from those who previously thought travel to Europe was out of their budget. With WOW now gone as well I doubt there is going to be much of a ‘war’.


B6 is not a low fare carrier. In NYC/BOS, it's a high fare carrier. I doubt you will see lower y fare on B6 than legacy airlines. That would be abnormal. You will however see much lower j fare in legacy airlines.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9442
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:32 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
So sources saying JetBlue first few A220 will be ETOPS birds. Robin Hayes is said to be making a LCY announcement later today in London.
Each plane will be a 50/50 split Mint and Even more space seating for the LCY market.
6 daily flights 3 JFK and 3 BOS Monday-Friday and 1 and 1 on Saturday/Sunday.

Maybe JetBlue is being cheeky about 18 months for A321LR Etops. But with the A220 can speed up the process since it's a new aircraft out of the gate?

Flyguy

Just because a plane is ETOPS , doesn’t mean the airline is, and no airline develops two ETOPS programs at the same time


The aircraft are already ETOPS certified right out of the factory, both the A220 and the NEOs. The airline however needs to develop its ETOPS program. But ETOPS is the least of the problems. Aircraft availability and slots are the primary hurdles. B6 could develop an ETOPS program within a year if they really wanted to (or less if they have already started as some people claim they have). If they've highlighted Q1 2021 for start of service that's because that is the date that makes the most sense for them to gather all necessary requirements. Requirements that go far beyond developing an ETOPS program.
Think about it for a second. The airline can't throw money at an ETOPS program without knowing if they'll even have the slots to operate the route. But they also can't go out and spent a ton of money on slots without having the aircraft to fly the routes. So it all has to come together at the right time, hence the extra long lead time.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 20405
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:37 pm

tphuang wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
I don’t think this new service from B6 across the pond will steal that many pax from the bigs. This new service I think will create its own demand, coming from those who previously thought travel to Europe was out of their budget. With WOW now gone as well I doubt there is going to be much of a ‘war’.


B6 is not a low fare carrier. In NYC/BOS, it's a high fare carrier. I doubt you will see lower y fare on B6 than legacy airlines. That would be abnormal. You will however see much lower j fare in legacy airlines.

Yet B6's CEO and COO keep banging on about how current TATL premium fares are obscene, Mint will be a game changer, etc. Thing is, it's hard to see how they will be putting enough premium seats on to the market any time soon to drive down premium fares. Compare and contrast Mint A321 to a BA High-J 744 or 779.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1314
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:40 pm

airbazar wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
So sources saying JetBlue first few A220 will be ETOPS birds. Robin Hayes is said to be making a LCY announcement later today in London.
Each plane will be a 50/50 split Mint and Even more space seating for the LCY market.
6 daily flights 3 JFK and 3 BOS Monday-Friday and 1 and 1 on Saturday/Sunday.

Maybe JetBlue is being cheeky about 18 months for A321LR Etops. But with the A220 can speed up the process since it's a new aircraft out of the gate?

Flyguy

Just because a plane is ETOPS , doesn’t mean the airline is, and no airline develops two ETOPS programs at the same time


The aircraft are already ETOPS certified right out of the factory, both the A220 and the NEOs. The airline however needs to develop its ETOPS program. But ETOPS is the least of the problems. Aircraft availability and slots are the primary hurdles. B6 could develop an ETOPS program within a year if they really wanted to (or less if they have already started as some people claim they have). If they've highlighted Q1 2021 for start of service that's because that is the date that makes the most sense for them to gather all necessary requirements. Requirements that go far beyond developing an ETOPS program.
Think about it for a second. The airline can't throw money at an ETOPS program without knowing if they'll even have the slots to operate the route. But they also can't go out and spent a ton of money on slots without having the aircraft to fly the routes. So it all has to come together at the right time, hence the extra long lead time.

Average time is 18 months.
 
impilot
Posts: 229
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:38 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:44 pm

Revelation wrote:
tphuang wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
I don’t think this new service from B6 across the pond will steal that many pax from the bigs. This new service I think will create its own demand, coming from those who previously thought travel to Europe was out of their budget. With WOW now gone as well I doubt there is going to be much of a ‘war’.


B6 is not a low fare carrier. In NYC/BOS, it's a high fare carrier. I doubt you will see lower y fare on B6 than legacy airlines. That would be abnormal. You will however see much lower j fare in legacy airlines.

Yet B6's CEO and COO keep banging on about how current TATL premium fares are obscene, Mint will be a game changer, etc. Thing is, it's hard to see how they will be putting enough premium seats on to the market any time soon to drive down premium fares. Compare and contrast Mint A321 to a BA High-J 744 or 779.

They don’t need to lower fares across the board. In fact if that happened, it would be potentially harder for jetblue to fill all the seats if legacies had the same fares. They just need their own fares low enough to take a fraction of the premium tatl traffic to fill their seats (which won’t be a whole lot in the grand scheme of things) and still be profitable.
 
tphuang
Posts: 2757
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:38 pm

Revelation wrote:
tphuang wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
I don’t think this new service from B6 across the pond will steal that many pax from the bigs. This new service I think will create its own demand, coming from those who previously thought travel to Europe was out of their budget. With WOW now gone as well I doubt there is going to be much of a ‘war’.


B6 is not a low fare carrier. In NYC/BOS, it's a high fare carrier. I doubt you will see lower y fare on B6 than legacy airlines. That would be abnormal. You will however see much lower j fare in legacy airlines.

Yet B6's CEO and COO keep banging on about how current TATL premium fares are obscene, Mint will be a game changer, etc. Thing is, it's hard to see how they will be putting enough premium seats on to the market any time soon to drive down premium fares. Compare and contrast Mint A321 to a BA High-J 744 or 779.


I think it depends on the market. JFK-LHR will be hard, but BOS-LHR will be different if they go with something like 3 flights of 24 to 32 J seating (which is what I expect at this point).

Based on what we see domestically on any selected day. B6 is rarely the cheapest flight. just picking some random days a month apart on BOS-LAX in J seating
https://www.google.com/flights#flt=BOS. ... 1;t:f;tt:o
https://www.google.com/flights#flt=BOS. ... 1;t:f;tt:o
https://www.google.com/flights#flt=BOS. ... 1;t:f;tt:o
https://www.google.com/flights#flt=BOS. ... 1;t:f;tt:o
In most cases, legacies have to undercut B6 pricing to sell their J cabin and they've all moved to lie flat now, so it's not a case where mint is competing against 37 inch FC seats. And this is on a route where all the legacies are larger on the other side by a long shot. That to me shows how well they control point of sale at BOS.

What you see is B6 moving the premium cabin pricing down a level while not actually pricing lower than legacies. What this has resulted in is a lot of legacies loosing money on BOS-LAX.

And if you look at the routes that DL competes against B6 out of BOS, they have to significantly undercut B6 in pricing to fill the cabins in their non-hub markets.

given DL/VS JV already has trouble getting more than 75% LF on BOS-LHR and has very small connection options at LHR, I think they will at least match if not undercut B6 on pricing. BA/AA is different since BA dominates LHR so much, but I would think even BA would have to match in some cases.

Yes, I'm sure legacy airlines are willing to take losses to fight B6 on this. But domestically with mint, B6 still makes money on those routes.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9442
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:42 pm

Revelation wrote:
Yet B6's CEO and COO keep banging on about how current TATL premium fares are obscene, Mint will be a game changer, etc. Thing is, it's hard to see how they will be putting enough premium seats on to the market any time soon to drive down premium fares. Compare and contrast Mint A321 to a BA High-J 744 or 779.

They have to start somewhere. We have to presume that at some point there will be more frequencies and more destinations. For example, why should I even bother flying BOS-CDG-BRU or BOS-LHR-MAN at an exorbitant price when I can fly non-stop with Mint? Not everyone on those flights to LHR/AMS/CDG/etc is flying O&D.
Having said that I don't buy into this a.net belief that everything has to be a zero-sum game. Will they have an impact on the others? Sure. But most importantly B6 is not trying to beat anyone. They are just catering to their own customers. The market is big enough for all of them to co-exist. If anything B6's own partners will suffer the most. Think about all the passengers that B6 funnels to TP,EI,FI, etc.
 
musman9853
Posts: 653
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 12:30 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:19 pm

[code][/code]
Miamiairport wrote:
Mint will be a huge challenge to AA and DL at LHR. I think B6 appeals to the business traveler time rushed not interested in lounges, particularly the young crowd that doesn't seem to have the "lounge fevor." BOS should also be a good station for B6 to London. It will be interesting to see if B6 tries to make Gatewick work for Mint.



anyone who's ever been in something like a flaghip lounge has lounge fever. it's so much better than sitting at the gate
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
impilot
Posts: 229
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:38 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:38 pm

musman9853 wrote:
[code][/code]
Miamiairport wrote:
Mint will be a huge challenge to AA and DL at LHR. I think B6 appeals to the business traveler time rushed not interested in lounges, particularly the young crowd that doesn't seem to have the "lounge fevor." BOS should also be a good station for B6 to London. It will be interesting to see if B6 tries to make Gatewick work for Mint.



anyone who's ever been in something like a flaghip lounge has lounge fever. it's so much better than sitting at the gate


Quite certain many of the B6 tcon mint customers have sat in lounges before, yet they still book mint knowing they won't have a lounge. Don't see it being any different tatl. If I were staring at a $6k ticket with lounge access vs a $3k ticket without for a similar product, I wouldn't pay any extra for that hour or two of sitting in a place that will marginally improve my quality of life for the relatively short time. Maybe that's an issue for some, but I don't think that will affect B6 in the slightest.
 
winginit
Posts: 2508
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:33 pm

flyby519 wrote:
winginit wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Or the competitors will start flying A321neoLR as well, and perhaps NMA/A322/etc some day as well.


This is, I think, a very important hypothetical that could easily become reality in the near term. Delta, just as an example, has 100 321neos on order that will start being delivered in 2020. This advance notice from B6 gives DL ample time to have a think on how they can respond competitively, and I think such a response includes the possibility of LRs being used across the Atlantic. DL has the ability to now pre-empt B6 at every step of their TATL endeavor.


I can't see AA/BA, DL/VS using 321LRs on their premium LON routes, why would this make sense?


Primary LHR flying from say JFK no, but I could see LRs on say JFK-LGW, BOS-LGW, BOS-CDG, BOS-AMS, etc. Not only could it match B6's product offering, but it could, if need be, rightsize capacity.

Boof02671 wrote:
First of all neither AA, BA, DL nor VS have the A321LR, and it won’t be able to carry the cargo a widebody does.


The cargo point is a good one, but as for LRs DL has 100 321neos on order. A chunk of that order could easily be converted.

Miamiairport wrote:
Mint will be a huge challenge to AA and DL at LHR.


It won't be though in practice. Even if B6 were able to secure the slots for 5x daily 321LRs between BOS and JFK to LHR (highly unlikely), that's merely a drop in the capacity bucket in the face of AA/BA/DL/VS' widebody fleets.
 
YYZORD
Posts: 232
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:26 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:54 pm

How many slots does B6 have left at JFK because I would assume they'd expand more to Europe through BOS where it's not slot restricted.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9442
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:24 pm

musman9853 wrote:
[code][/code]
Miamiairport wrote:
Mint will be a huge challenge to AA and DL at LHR. I think B6 appeals to the business traveler time rushed not interested in lounges, particularly the young crowd that doesn't seem to have the "lounge fevor." BOS should also be a good station for B6 to London. It will be interesting to see if B6 tries to make Gatewick work for Mint.



anyone who's ever been in something like a flaghip lounge has lounge fever. it's so much better than sitting at the gate


I have used the BA business class lounges at LHR and AF's business class lounge at CDG, and while they are really nice and convenient for connections I would never use them for O&D. For some reason some people love lounges. I know they're nice for long layovers but that's about it. But even then, on a recent 5 hour layover at LHR I think i spent more time walking the airport than in the lounge. I don't get the point of needing a lounge for O&D flights, at all. I know people who go to the lounge immediately after clearing security even if they only have a few minutes before boarding. I much prefer to walk around the terminal. If I'm going to be sitting in a uncomfortable metal tube for a few hours the last thing i want to do is to sit down and wait to board. I also don't understand people who like to board first. Even when I have priority boarding I'm one of the last to board. I'm all about minimizing the amount of time I have to spend at the airport and inside the plane, so lounges? Don't care for them.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 20405
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:27 pm

winginit wrote:
flyby519 wrote:
winginit wrote:
This is, I think, a very important hypothetical that could easily become reality in the near term. Delta, just as an example, has 100 321neos on order that will start being delivered in 2020. This advance notice from B6 gives DL ample time to have a think on how they can respond competitively, and I think such a response includes the possibility of LRs being used across the Atlantic. DL has the ability to now pre-empt B6 at every step of their TATL endeavor.


I can't see AA/BA, DL/VS using 321LRs on their premium LON routes, why would this make sense?

Primary LHR flying from say JFK no, but I could see LRs on say JFK-LGW, BOS-LGW, BOS-CDG, BOS-AMS, etc. Not only could it match B6's product offering, but it could, if need be, rightsize capacity.

Boof02671 wrote:
First of all neither AA, BA, DL nor VS have the A321LR, and it won’t be able to carry the cargo a widebody does.

The cargo point is a good one, but as for LRs DL has 100 321neos on order. A chunk of that order could easily be converted.

Miamiairport wrote:
Mint will be a huge challenge to AA and DL at LHR.

It won't be though in practice. Even if B6 were able to secure the slots for 5x daily 321LRs between BOS and JFK to LHR (highly unlikely), that's merely a drop in the capacity bucket in the face of AA/BA/DL/VS' widebody fleets.

Thanks, you've captured a lot of points I agree with.

My earlier point about the competition using A321 wasn't meant to be as literal as some read it, some missed my inclusion of A322 and NMA.

My point is the legacies have the resources to respond to or outflank B6 with all kinds of different options whereas B6 will be using one sized aircraft to a relatively small number of TATL destinations, at least initially.

On the other hand, I agree with the point that B6 doesn't need to be everything to everybody and just needs to find a profitable niche to get established in the TATL market.

Yet there are the legacies with all the resources needed to make that modest goal very difficult.

Should be fun to watch, and should be fun to be offered some very interesting TATL fares to interesting places in the near future!
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
tphuang
Posts: 2757
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:29 pm

winginit wrote:
Primary LHR flying from say JFK no, but I could see LRs on say JFK-LGW, BOS-LGW, BOS-CDG, BOS-AMS, etc. Not only could it match B6's product offering, but it could, if need be, rightsize capacity.

The cargo point is a good one, but as for LRs DL has 100 321neos on order. A chunk of that order could easily be converted.

It won't be though in practice. Even if B6 were able to secure the slots for 5x daily 321LRs between BOS and JFK to LHR (highly unlikely), that's merely a drop in the capacity bucket in the face of AA/BA/DL/VS' widebody fleets.

except that DL has not even made the decision to do it domestically, which actually makes a lot more sense. There seems to be no interest on their side to do so. UA has made noise about putting lie flat on 737MAX10, but has made no noise about putting that platform on TATL.

Remember, the part that sets apart mint is how low cost it is, not that it's on A321. By using A321LR, B6 gets to stick with 2 fleet types going forward which helps them keep cost down. It doesn't make sense for any of the legacies to go with this approach since they already have enough widebodies, plenty of fleet types for each mission and have shown more interest in NMA. By not having much ground service, lounge, free upgrades, alliance cost and only having 4 FAs, they are able to keep mint cost to just 5 to 6% higher than 150 seat A320s. 757 is already all paid for and can fly all these missions. Just using A321LR is not going to allow legacies to match the low cost of B6.

As for the last part, they are going for 7 LHR slots (4 JFK, 3 BOS) and if they get 5 it will be 2 JFK and 3 BOS. Hard to argue 3x daily on BOS won't be a big deal when DL/VS operates fewer than that on BOS-LHR and BA only has 3x daily. I can guarantee if they can operate 4x daily on JFK-LHR, it will show up on most wall street company's concur pages and there will be plenty of people flying them.

Wall street firm didn't get where they are by squandering money. If the legacies are not showing up within $200 R/T of B6 fares, most employees will be flying B6.

Consider this, on JFK-ATL where B6 has 2 flights next to the many that DL runs out of both JFK/LGA, DL's yield still suffered when B6 started JFK-ATL service.

try find even one route out of BOS where legacies are not price matching B6.

Revelation wrote:
My point is the legacies have the resources to respond to or outflank B6 with all kinds of different options whereas B6 will be using one sized aircraft to a relatively small number of TATL destinations, at least initially.

On the other hand, I agree with the point that B6 doesn't need to be everything to everybody and just needs to find a profitable niche to get established in the TATL market.

Yet there are the legacies with all the resources needed to make that modest goal very difficult.

Should be fun to watch, and should be fun to be offered some very interesting TATL fares to interesting places in the near future!


What makes B6 tough at BOS is that it has much lower cost than legacies while able to fetch higher yield. So legacies can comfortably choose to loose a lot money while B6 can comfortably make money. At the end of the day, not all legacies are created equal. AA's finance is quite shaky and there is a limit to how much losses it can suffer on JFK-LHR without the results showing up in earnings calls. DL's finance is great but it doesn't have a BA as partner, so B6 can rely on its strength at JFK/BOS.
Last edited by tphuang on Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
VS4ever
Posts: 2017
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:03 am

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:33 pm

YYZORD wrote:
How many slots does B6 have left at JFK because I would assume they'd expand more to Europe through BOS where it's not slot restricted.


The issue with BOS is not slot restrictions, it's gate availability in Terminal E at the times folks want to fly, it's packed out right now. There is light at the end of the tunnel however because E is about to get expanded with 4 new gates that will be big enough to handle 2 NB's or 1 WB. and eventually 3 more on top of that. That will help B6 with the expansion along with others, but those aren't due to come on line for a while, They could start DUB quite easily because they can use their existing gates due to pre-clearance in DUB, but LHR/LGW would need an E gate. B6 has preferential treatment to E1 per an agreement with Massport but that's going to make things rather complicated for regular ops without some folks having to hard stand.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 5335
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:25 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
So sources saying JetBlue first few A220 will be ETOPS birds. Robin Hayes is said to be making a LCY announcement later today in London.
Each plane will be a 50/50 split Mint and Even more space seating for the LCY market.
6 daily flights 3 JFK and 3 BOS Monday-Friday and 1 and 1 on Saturday/Sunday.

Maybe JetBlue is being cheeky about 18 months for A321LR Etops. But with the A220 can speed up the process since it's a new aircraft out of the gate?

Flyguy




What sources?

Sorry, Im curious
 
flyby519
Posts: 1410
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:31 am

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:33 pm

winginit wrote:
flyby519 wrote:
winginit wrote:

This is, I think, a very important hypothetical that could easily become reality in the near term. Delta, just as an example, has 100 321neos on order that will start being delivered in 2020. This advance notice from B6 gives DL ample time to have a think on how they can respond competitively, and I think such a response includes the possibility of LRs being used across the Atlantic. DL has the ability to now pre-empt B6 at every step of their TATL endeavor.


I can't see AA/BA, DL/VS using 321LRs on their premium LON routes, why would this make sense?


Primary LHR flying from say JFK no, but I could see LRs on say JFK-LGW, BOS-LGW, BOS-CDG, BOS-AMS, etc. Not only could it match B6's product offering, but it could, if need be, rightsize capacity.

Boof02671 wrote:
First of all neither AA, BA, DL nor VS have the A321LR, and it won’t be able to carry the cargo a widebody does.


The cargo point is a good one, but as for LRs DL has 100 321neos on order. A chunk of that order could easily be converted.

Miamiairport wrote:
Mint will be a huge challenge to AA and DL at LHR.


It won't be though in practice. Even if B6 were able to secure the slots for 5x daily 321LRs between BOS and JFK to LHR (highly unlikely), that's merely a drop in the capacity bucket in the face of AA/BA/DL/VS' widebody fleets.


I think it is much more likely to see alliance carriers capacity dumping WBs on top of B6 TATL routes and matching fares. It will be interesting to see how it plays out because of B6’s lower costs, but alliance carriers deeper pockets.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1314
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:41 pm

flyby519 wrote:
winginit wrote:
flyby519 wrote:

I can't see AA/BA, DL/VS using 321LRs on their premium LON routes, why would this make sense?


Primary LHR flying from say JFK no, but I could see LRs on say JFK-LGW, BOS-LGW, BOS-CDG, BOS-AMS, etc. Not only could it match B6's product offering, but it could, if need be, rightsize capacity.

Boof02671 wrote:
First of all neither AA, BA, DL nor VS have the A321LR, and it won’t be able to carry the cargo a widebody does.


The cargo point is a good one, but as for LRs DL has 100 321neos on order. A chunk of that order could easily be converted.

Miamiairport wrote:
Mint will be a huge challenge to AA and DL at LHR.


It won't be though in practice. Even if B6 were able to secure the slots for 5x daily 321LRs between BOS and JFK to LHR (highly unlikely), that's merely a drop in the capacity bucket in the face of AA/BA/DL/VS' widebody fleets.


I think it is much more likely to see alliance carriers capacity dumping WBs on top of B6 TATL routes and matching fares. It will be interesting to see how it plays out because of B6’s lower costs, but alliance carriers deeper pockets.

JetBlue’s labor costs will be going up with both the pilots and flight attendants being unionized now and the ramp is organizing now too.
 
Abeam79
Posts: 296
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:16 am

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:47 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
flyby519 wrote:
winginit wrote:

Primary LHR flying from say JFK no, but I could see LRs on say JFK-LGW, BOS-LGW, BOS-CDG, BOS-AMS, etc. Not only could it match B6's product offering, but it could, if need be, rightsize capacity.



The cargo point is a good one, but as for LRs DL has 100 321neos on order. A chunk of that order could easily be converted.



It won't be though in practice. Even if B6 were able to secure the slots for 5x daily 321LRs between BOS and JFK to LHR (highly unlikely), that's merely a drop in the capacity bucket in the face of AA/BA/DL/VS' widebody fleets.


I think it is much more likely to see alliance carriers capacity dumping WBs on top of B6 TATL routes and matching fares. It will be interesting to see how it plays out because of B6’s lower costs, but alliance carriers deeper pockets.

JetBlue’s labor costs will be going up with both the pilots and flight attendants being unionized now and the ramp is organizing now too.

So will DL/UA/AA/WN, ETC.
Always a head scratcher when people say this, as if this only effects JetBlue? Have you read that delta pilots just started negotiations with management for a new contract? They will be getting even higher cost in the near future so will ua and aa before B6 goes to the table with their employees. It’s the winds of the industry and no company is immune to it, just as when there are gusty crosswinds at any airport, it effects everything landing there, not just one airline. :roll:
 
tphuang
Posts: 2757
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:58 am

The reality of cost control is that airlines with simple fleet and lack of alliance and legacy personnel like Southwest will always have significant cost advantage over legacies even when their labor cost catches up. Of course, this model also looses out in the revenue aspect due to not always having the right size aircraft for certain routes and not having partner airlines providing feed.

According to recent AS presentation, WN even with its labor cost in line with Big 3 have up to 30% CASM-ex advantage when stage adjusted. B6 even with its labor cost closer to the Big 4 still have 20+% CASM-ex advantage (probably even greater when just comparing JFK/BOS operations). That's just a reality.

They keep their cost down by maximizing fleet utilization, a lot of red-eye flying, less schedule padding and such. More recently with the higher labor cost from new TA, the CASM growth from last year to this year is still under 1.5% due to cabin densification in A320, more all-core A321s and longer stage length. All of this has hurt their RASM in Q1. My point is with these moves, you haven't seen any kind of spikes in B6 costs. And it will actually come down once they have the A220s replacing E90s.

So to say that they will loose cost advantage because pilot and FA unionizing is quite far fetched.

And the cost advantage of mint vs legacy aircraft with lie flat is even greater
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2727
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:07 am

tphuang wrote:
winginit wrote:
Primary LHR flying from say JFK no, but I could see LRs on say JFK-LGW, BOS-LGW, BOS-CDG, BOS-AMS, etc. Not only could it match B6's product offering, but it could, if need be, rightsize capacity.

The cargo point is a good one, but as for LRs DL has 100 321neos on order. A chunk of that order could easily be converted.

It won't be though in practice. Even if B6 were able to secure the slots for 5x daily 321LRs between BOS and JFK to LHR (highly unlikely), that's merely a drop in the capacity bucket in the face of AA/BA/DL/VS' widebody fleets.

except that DL has not even made the decision to do it domestically, which actually makes a lot more sense. There seems to be no interest on their side to do so. UA has made noise about putting lie flat on 737MAX10, but has made no noise about putting that platform on TATL.

Remember, the part that sets apart mint is how low cost it is, not that it's on A321. By using A321LR, B6 gets to stick with 2 fleet types going forward which helps them keep cost down. It doesn't make sense for any of the legacies to go with this approach since they already have enough widebodies, plenty of fleet types for each mission and have shown more interest in NMA. By not having much ground service, lounge, free upgrades, alliance cost and only having 4 FAs, they are able to keep mint cost to just 5 to 6% higher than 150 seat A320s. 757 is already all paid for and can fly all these missions. Just using A321LR is not going to allow legacies to match the low cost of B6.

As for the last part, they are going for 7 LHR slots (4 JFK, 3 BOS) and if they get 5 it will be 2 JFK and 3 BOS. Hard to argue 3x daily on BOS won't be a big deal when DL/VS operates fewer than that on BOS-LHR and BA only has 3x daily. I can guarantee if they can operate 4x daily on JFK-LHR, it will show up on most wall street company's concur pages and there will be plenty of people flying them.

Wall street firm didn't get where they are by squandering money. If the legacies are not showing up within $200 R/T of B6 fares, most employees will be flying B6.

Consider this, on JFK-ATL where B6 has 2 flights next to the many that DL runs out of both JFK/LGA, DL's yield still suffered when B6 started JFK-ATL service.

try find even one route out of BOS where legacies are not price matching B6.

Revelation wrote:
My point is the legacies have the resources to respond to or outflank B6 with all kinds of different options whereas B6 will be using one sized aircraft to a relatively small number of TATL destinations, at least initially.

On the other hand, I agree with the point that B6 doesn't need to be everything to everybody and just needs to find a profitable niche to get established in the TATL market.

Yet there are the legacies with all the resources needed to make that modest goal very difficult.

Should be fun to watch, and should be fun to be offered some very interesting TATL fares to interesting places in the near future!


What makes B6 tough at BOS is that it has much lower cost than legacies while able to fetch higher yield. So legacies can comfortably choose to loose a lot money while B6 can comfortably make money. At the end of the day, not all legacies are created equal. AA's finance is quite shaky and there is a limit to how much losses it can suffer on JFK-LHR without the results showing up in earnings calls. DL's finance is great but it doesn't have a BA as partner, so B6 can rely on its strength at JFK/BOS.


I think your being a bit to optimistic. The blue cool aide is flowing very freely in your blood stream. Not sure why you think, all of a sudden, people are going to come out of the wood works to fly Blue BOS-LHR and will fill them up 3 x daily. There are plenty of industry pros out there that suggest B6 will be in for the flight of their lives and that success is absolutely not guaranteed, like you seem to suggest.
 
n2dru
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:02 am

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:38 am

Anyone know where these London slots are coming from, particularly LHR (which are VERY hard to come by without major $$)?
 
Pbb152
Posts: 634
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2000 2:57 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:07 am

jumbojet wrote:
tphuang wrote:
winginit wrote:
Primary LHR flying from say JFK no, but I could see LRs on say JFK-LGW, BOS-LGW, BOS-CDG, BOS-AMS, etc. Not only could it match B6's product offering, but it could, if need be, rightsize capacity.

The cargo point is a good one, but as for LRs DL has 100 321neos on order. A chunk of that order could easily be converted.

It won't be though in practice. Even if B6 were able to secure the slots for 5x daily 321LRs between BOS and JFK to LHR (highly unlikely), that's merely a drop in the capacity bucket in the face of AA/BA/DL/VS' widebody fleets.

except that DL has not even made the decision to do it domestically, which actually makes a lot more sense. There seems to be no interest on their side to do so. UA has made noise about putting lie flat on 737MAX10, but has made no noise about putting that platform on TATL.

Remember, the part that sets apart mint is how low cost it is, not that it's on A321. By using A321LR, B6 gets to stick with 2 fleet types going forward which helps them keep cost down. It doesn't make sense for any of the legacies to go with this approach since they already have enough widebodies, plenty of fleet types for each mission and have shown more interest in NMA. By not having much ground service, lounge, free upgrades, alliance cost and only having 4 FAs, they are able to keep mint cost to just 5 to 6% higher than 150 seat A320s. 757 is already all paid for and can fly all these missions. Just using A321LR is not going to allow legacies to match the low cost of B6.

As for the last part, they are going for 7 LHR slots (4 JFK, 3 BOS) and if they get 5 it will be 2 JFK and 3 BOS. Hard to argue 3x daily on BOS won't be a big deal when DL/VS operates fewer than that on BOS-LHR and BA only has 3x daily. I can guarantee if they can operate 4x daily on JFK-LHR, it will show up on most wall street company's concur pages and there will be plenty of people flying them.

Wall street firm didn't get where they are by squandering money. If the legacies are not showing up within $200 R/T of B6 fares, most employees will be flying B6.

Consider this, on JFK-ATL where B6 has 2 flights next to the many that DL runs out of both JFK/LGA, DL's yield still suffered when B6 started JFK-ATL service.

try find even one route out of BOS where legacies are not price matching B6.

Revelation wrote:
My point is the legacies have the resources to respond to or outflank B6 with all kinds of different options whereas B6 will be using one sized aircraft to a relatively small number of TATL destinations, at least initially.

On the other hand, I agree with the point that B6 doesn't need to be everything to everybody and just needs to find a profitable niche to get established in the TATL market.

Yet there are the legacies with all the resources needed to make that modest goal very difficult.

Should be fun to watch, and should be fun to be offered some very interesting TATL fares to interesting places in the near future!


What makes B6 tough at BOS is that it has much lower cost than legacies while able to fetch higher yield. So legacies can comfortably choose to loose a lot money while B6 can comfortably make money. At the end of the day, not all legacies are created equal. AA's finance is quite shaky and there is a limit to how much losses it can suffer on JFK-LHR without the results showing up in earnings calls. DL's finance is great but it doesn't have a BA as partner, so B6 can rely on its strength at JFK/BOS.


I think your being a bit to optimistic. The blue cool aide is flowing very freely in your blood stream. Not sure why you think, all of a sudden, people are going to come out of the wood works to fly Blue BOS-LHR and will fill them up 3 x daily. There are plenty of industry pros out there that suggest B6 will be in for the flight of their lives and that success is absolutely not guaranteed, like you seem to suggest.


Yes, how dare anyone who doesn't sleep on DL bed sheets and snuggle a plush Widget be optimistic about anything.
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 2369
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:17 am

jumbojet wrote:
tphuang wrote:
winginit wrote:
Primary LHR flying from say JFK no, but I could see LRs on say JFK-LGW, BOS-LGW, BOS-CDG, BOS-AMS, etc. Not only could it match B6's product offering, but it could, if need be, rightsize capacity.

The cargo point is a good one, but as for LRs DL has 100 321neos on order. A chunk of that order could easily be converted.

It won't be though in practice. Even if B6 were able to secure the slots for 5x daily 321LRs between BOS and JFK to LHR (highly unlikely), that's merely a drop in the capacity bucket in the face of AA/BA/DL/VS' widebody fleets.

except that DL has not even made the decision to do it domestically, which actually makes a lot more sense. There seems to be no interest on their side to do so. UA has made noise about putting lie flat on 737MAX10, but has made no noise about putting that platform on TATL.

Remember, the part that sets apart mint is how low cost it is, not that it's on A321. By using A321LR, B6 gets to stick with 2 fleet types going forward which helps them keep cost down. It doesn't make sense for any of the legacies to go with this approach since they already have enough widebodies, plenty of fleet types for each mission and have shown more interest in NMA. By not having much ground service, lounge, free upgrades, alliance cost and only having 4 FAs, they are able to keep mint cost to just 5 to 6% higher than 150 seat A320s. 757 is already all paid for and can fly all these missions. Just using A321LR is not going to allow legacies to match the low cost of B6.

As for the last part, they are going for 7 LHR slots (4 JFK, 3 BOS) and if they get 5 it will be 2 JFK and 3 BOS. Hard to argue 3x daily on BOS won't be a big deal when DL/VS operates fewer than that on BOS-LHR and BA only has 3x daily. I can guarantee if they can operate 4x daily on JFK-LHR, it will show up on most wall street company's concur pages and there will be plenty of people flying them.

Wall street firm didn't get where they are by squandering money. If the legacies are not showing up within $200 R/T of B6 fares, most employees will be flying B6.

Consider this, on JFK-ATL where B6 has 2 flights next to the many that DL runs out of both JFK/LGA, DL's yield still suffered when B6 started JFK-ATL service.

try find even one route out of BOS where legacies are not price matching B6.

Revelation wrote:
My point is the legacies have the resources to respond to or outflank B6 with all kinds of different options whereas B6 will be using one sized aircraft to a relatively small number of TATL destinations, at least initially.

On the other hand, I agree with the point that B6 doesn't need to be everything to everybody and just needs to find a profitable niche to get established in the TATL market.

Yet there are the legacies with all the resources needed to make that modest goal very difficult.

Should be fun to watch, and should be fun to be offered some very interesting TATL fares to interesting places in the near future!


What makes B6 tough at BOS is that it has much lower cost than legacies while able to fetch higher yield. So legacies can comfortably choose to loose a lot money while B6 can comfortably make money. At the end of the day, not all legacies are created equal. AA's finance is quite shaky and there is a limit to how much losses it can suffer on JFK-LHR without the results showing up in earnings calls. DL's finance is great but it doesn't have a BA as partner, so B6 can rely on its strength at JFK/BOS.


I think your being a bit to optimistic. The blue cool aide is flowing very freely in your blood stream. Not sure why you think, all of a sudden, people are going to come out of the wood works to fly Blue BOS-LHR and will fill them up 3 x daily. There are plenty of industry pros out there that suggest B6 will be in for the flight of their lives and that success is absolutely not guaranteed, like you seem to suggest.

Please link to these “industry pros”. It will be very sad for you, but JetBlue will likely replicate their transcon success to Europe. They have two extensive hubs for feed and are the business person’s airline of choice in BOS. As for your hyperbole that they will be in for the fight of their lives, well they’ve won that fight in their Mint markets versus the legacies.
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 2369
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:22 am

flyby519 wrote:
winginit wrote:
flyby519 wrote:

I can't see AA/BA, DL/VS using 321LRs on their premium LON routes, why would this make sense?


Primary LHR flying from say JFK no, but I could see LRs on say JFK-LGW, BOS-LGW, BOS-CDG, BOS-AMS, etc. Not only could it match B6's product offering, but it could, if need be, rightsize capacity.

Boof02671 wrote:
First of all neither AA, BA, DL nor VS have the A321LR, and it won’t be able to carry the cargo a widebody does.


The cargo point is a good one, but as for LRs DL has 100 321neos on order. A chunk of that order could easily be converted.

Miamiairport wrote:
Mint will be a huge challenge to AA and DL at LHR.


It won't be though in practice. Even if B6 were able to secure the slots for 5x daily 321LRs between BOS and JFK to LHR (highly unlikely), that's merely a drop in the capacity bucket in the face of AA/BA/DL/VS' widebody fleets.


I think it is much more likely to see alliance carriers capacity dumping WBs on top of B6 TATL routes and matching fares. It will be interesting to see how it plays out because of B6’s lower costs, but alliance carriers deeper pockets.

Where do they get these widebodies from? Pull them off more prosperous markets and flood Boston with seats? Smart move.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2329
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:32 am

n2dru wrote:
Anyone know where these London slots are coming from, particularly LHR (which are VERY hard to come by without major $$)?


JetBlue haven't even officially mentioned what airport they will be serving for London when they eventually start their transatlantic flights from Boston and New York JFK so there are no slots to discuss because as for what we know so far they don't even have any slots.

LHR slots are very hard to come by especially at the times that JetBlue would want them let alone very expensive to obtain and for what just to get slaughtered by the incumbent airlines already at LHR.

All this talk of JetBlue and LHR, I personally think it's unbelievable. Others have mentioned remedial slots being made available to JetBlue at LHR, there are no remedy slots being made available to JetBlue let alone in the morning at LHR.

JetBlue would at least need some suitable morning slots and few of them if they really wanted to use LHR with a proper schedule to both Boston and New York JFK, considering that they are as rare as ''Dodo'' pooh I have a hard time believing that they would obtain such slots.

All these remarks and comments regarding JetBlue and LHR are generally coming from those in the USA, those of us from the UK who are more familiar with LHR are more realistic about the situation and don't for one minute anticipate JetBlue flying into LHR.

If I can qoute a sketch from Familyguy, ''it's sperm and nonsense'' :-)
Last edited by Cunard on Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 322
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:49 am

Cunard wrote:
JetBlue haven't even officially mentioned what airport they will be serving for London when they eventually start their transatlantic flights from Boston and New York JFK so there are no slots to discuss because for what we know so far they don't even have any slots.

LHR slots are very hard to come by especially at the times that JetBlue would want them let alone very expensive to obtain and for what to get slaughtered by the incumbent airlines already at LHR.

All this talk of JetBlue and LHR I personally think it's unbelievable and others have mentioned remedial slots being made available to JetBlue at LHR, there are no remedy slots being made available to JetBlue let alone in the morning at LHR.

JetBlue would at least need some suitable morning slots and few of them if they really wanted to use LHR with a proper schedule to both Boston and New York JFK, considering that they are as rare as ''Dodo'' pooh I have a hard time believing that they would obtain such slots

All these remarks and comments regarding JetBlue and LHR are generally coming from those in the USA, those of us from the UK who are more familiar with LHR are more realistic about the situation and don't for one minute anticipate JetBlue flying into LHR.

If I can qoute a sketch from Familyguy ''it's sperm and nonsense'' :-)


Dude, commas and full stops (for those of you in the UK) are your friend.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2329
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:56 am

SurlyBonds wrote:
Cunard wrote:
JetBlue haven't even officially mentioned what airport they will be serving for London when they eventually start their transatlantic flights from Boston and New York JFK so there are no slots to discuss because for what we know so far they don't even have any slots.

LHR slots are very hard to come by especially at the times that JetBlue would want them let alone very expensive to obtain and for what to get slaughtered by the incumbent airlines already at LHR.

All this talk of JetBlue and LHR I personally think it's unbelievable and others have mentioned remedial slots being made available to JetBlue at LHR, there are no remedy slots being made available to JetBlue let alone in the morning at LHR.

JetBlue would at least need some suitable morning slots and few of them if they really wanted to use LHR with a proper schedule to both Boston and New York JFK, considering that they are as rare as ''Dodo'' pooh I have a hard time believing that they would obtain such slots

All these remarks and comments regarding JetBlue and LHR are generally coming from those in the USA, those of us from the UK who are more familiar with LHR are more realistic about the situation and don't for one minute anticipate JetBlue flying into LHR.

If I can qoute a sketch from Familyguy ''it's sperm and nonsense'' :-)


Dude, commas and full stops (for those of you in the UK) are your friend.


Dude

I used comma's and full stops where I felt it was appropriate to use them. :-)

It's ''sperm and nonsense'' that's all that matters. :-)
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
VS11
Posts: 1410
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

Re: Confirmed: Jetblue Announces Flights to London from JFK and BOS from 2021

Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:11 pm

Cunard wrote:

All these remarks and comments regarding JetBlue and LHR are generally coming from those in the USA, those of us from the UK who are more familiar with LHR are more realistic about the situation and don't for one minute anticipate JetBlue flying into LHR.



Yes. The American attitude is that you can solve any problem by throwing enough money at it. Money is still very cheap to borrow. The Federal Reserve is pausing rates increases and indicates readiness to lower rates if the need be. In what could very soon be a deflationary environment, buying LHR slots is a great investment on its own. I don’t know why you are assuming jetBlue is not ready to chip in the money. Also, they can lease slots, at least in the beginning.

And the third LHR runway is still supposed to go ahead, yes? Isn’t that going to create new slots? JetBlue can lease slots until the new runway is operational. I think we should stop doubting that jetBlue is willing to go all in on London.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos