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wetpantsmcgee
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:41 am

glideslope900 wrote:
Lol I like how he said “yaw dampeners.”


Are those for keeping the yaw wet?
 
coairman
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:50 am

From my own observations over the years, I have seen this type of unofficial work action before. Usually not such blatantly advertised to the public and media.

Sometimes when these work actions occur they are highly organized, intentional, and are intended to screw the customers and their coworkers, such as customer service agents. Something as so simple as replacing a simple item such as a fire extinguisher can astonishingly take hours, even if it’s in inventory. And then maintenance personal will string the company along on sharing information and thus lead to a rolling 12 hour maintenance delay leading to a cancellation. It’s terrible.

My personal experience with some airline maintenance personnel is some of them have bad attitudes, don’t want to share information, are very close knit with their peers, have clandestine behaviors and can be simply jerks. I am talking about a small percentage, but their behavior can significantly disrupt an airline’s operation for the worst.

I hope WN can work this out and it would be interesting to see if they could do what Northwest Airlines did many years ago if I remember correctly in which they brought in replacement workers. Maybe this can’t be done unless the company is in Chapter 11 bankruptcy reorganization.
The views I express are of my own, and not the company I work for.
 
Wacker1000
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:18 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
You realy should educate yourself on the AIP.

1. It wasn’t a TA, it was an AIP
2. WN was asking for concessions and wanted to outsource work to foreign countries.
3. It was voted down by a massive margin
4. WN wasn’t paying full retro pay.
5. WN already outsources 80% of their maintenance and sought to outsource more

So educate yourself on the issues instead of spewing out misinformation.


What I said is pretty much what you summarized. It may not be liked but it is the reality of any contract negotiation today. Not recognizing that this is going to happen is why 50% of the US big 4 are going through this right now and have been without a new contract for years.

Airlines don't want to assume the cost of in house work (though I would love to see the real numbers for outsourced work - suspect it isn't as cheap as the accountants may think) and people don't want their work being sent elsewhere. The reality is that the company is going to do it eventually and work actions don't help the argument not to. It is really easy to terminate a contract with a vendor when their people do things that impact your business......
 
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zeke
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:06 pm

B737900ER wrote:
I don’t want to go down this road again and argue with ten people who have no clue what their talking about, but I’ll just say 95% of people in this site have NO IDEA what goes on in the world of avaiation maintenance, you obviously being one of them.


95% of statistics are made up :)
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
kiowa
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:31 pm

zeke wrote:
B737900ER wrote:
I don’t want to go down this road again and argue with ten people who have no clue what their talking about, but I’ll just say 95% of people in this site have NO IDEA what goes on in the world of avaiation maintenance, you obviously being one of them.


95% of statistics are made up :)



they are only made up 84% of the time though.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:46 pm

mcdu wrote:
This just can’t be WN. Everyone is happy and full of LUV.

Why would a company that says “treat your employees well and they will treat the customers well” and also their famous “the customer isn’t always right statement “ take such harsh action on their mechanics union?


Because the mechanics union, either deliberately or with their tacit approval, is seeing their members engage in an illegal work action against the company. They're still in negotiations and have not been released for "self-help" at this point in the process, so they're not free to engage in a slowdown, sickout, or any other form of illegal work stoppage.

That's why WN is suing them.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:19 am

Haha, and yet, even with all of this fighting/issues WN is going through right now, they are still a better operation than B6. At least at WN, most employees, even if they are fighting each other, still love the company. At B6, they are all united in their hate of the company and hopes of a merger with a better operation, anyone at this point including WN and the ULCC's.

The grass is not always greener on the other side, you could be working for B6.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
mcdu
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:24 pm

The Forbes headline and article should make everyone at WN take notice. This is an ugly situation for the airline that churns positive PR

https://www.inc.com/chris-matyszczyk/in-an-astonishing-statement-southwest-airlines-pilots-made-accusations-that-will-worry-every-passenger.html
 
bob75013
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:22 pm

mcdu wrote:
The Forbes headline and article should make everyone at WN take notice. This is an ugly situation for the airline that churns positive PR

https://www.inc.com/chris-matyszczyk/in-an-astonishing-statement-southwest-airlines-pilots-made-accusations-that-will-worry-every-passenger.html


yawn, snore, snore snore

wake me up when you have something important to share.
 
kiowa
Posts: 758
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:01 pm

bob75013 wrote:
mcdu wrote:
The Forbes headline and article should make everyone at WN take notice. This is an ugly situation for the airline that churns positive PR

https://www.inc.com/chris-matyszczyk/in-an-astonishing-statement-southwest-airlines-pilots-made-accusations-that-will-worry-every-passenger.html


yawn, snore, snore snore

wake me up when you have something important to share.


Sounds important to share. The pilots believe in their mechanics and take a rare departure from management support. Time to get your act together Southwest. Settle the mechanics contract.
 
bhill
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:18 pm

Dallas wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

Yes I think you did. I did not intend to infer that Delta is golden, doesn't make mistake, or is immune from market forces. I was referring to their decision to pay large profitsharing (for the last several years) to get ahead of employee discontent. In times like these, airlines have to share the wealth in a large way. Southwest and JetBlue seem to be struggling with the concept.

But AMFA has a bad record also.


Please explain to me how Southwest has struggled with the concept?

WN Profitsharing for the last 5 years:
2014- 9.5%
2015- 15.6%
2016- 13.2%
2017- 11.3% + $1000
2018- 10.8%


So the COMPANY chooses how the "bonus" is disbursed, or was this negotiated as well? Seems kinda foolish for the members to agree on this. Why not just have this spelled out in the standard retirement benefits package? With all of the news of companies under funding pensions...SHOW MW THE MONEY...I will put it in my own IRA if I want. I can see how the company would want this...like the "tax reform" we just had. Rather than employers raising wages, they gave a one time cash bonus...
Carpe Pices
 
bob75013
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:21 pm

kiowa wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
mcdu wrote:
The Forbes headline and article should make everyone at WN take notice. This is an ugly situation for the airline that churns positive PR

https://www.inc.com/chris-matyszczyk/in-an-astonishing-statement-southwest-airlines-pilots-made-accusations-that-will-worry-every-passenger.html


yawn, snore, snore snore

wake me up when you have something important to share.


Sounds important to share. The pilots believe in their mechanics and take a rare departure from management support. Time to get your act together Southwest. Settle the mechanics contract.


Sounds more like one union supporting another union to me. Isn't that what unions do?
 
MeCe
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:13 am

strfyr51 wrote:
If a Maintenance supervisor can't override a mechanic?


No, can not
 
kiowa
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:12 pm

bob75013 wrote:
kiowa wrote:
bob75013 wrote:

yawn, snore, snore snore

wake me up when you have something important to share.


Sounds important to share. The pilots believe in their mechanics and take a rare departure from management support. Time to get your act together Southwest. Settle the mechanics contract.


Sounds more like one union supporting another union to me. Isn't that what unions do?


No, they support their own membership.
 
SwaWife21
Posts: 6
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:51 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
There’s a lot more to a contract than payscale.

Work rules and job protection are a HUGE part of airline contracts. and are a major point of disagreement.


From SwaWife21
Sadly I see a lot of people here who don't seem to even know what the issue is in relation to SW and its Mechs. jetmatt 77 you are 100% correct!
The issue is about outsourcing the mechanic's jobs and not so much about the pay. Southwest has already outsourced 80% of their work and now they want to legally outsource the rest by forcing the mechanics to agree to it at the bargaining table (which is well over 50% more than the other airlines in the industry). Southwest is telling lies by saying that changing the work rules in the contract to allow more 'flexibility" (to outsource) that its mechanics will still have job security. It's a damn lie. If people would open their eyes and really see what's going on at SW they would know that if the pilots, stewardesses and almost every other set of employees except a small group at the top are backing the mechanics it's because there is a very good reason to do so. SW has already outsourced all of their appearance techs. The mechanics are the second group they want to get rid of which means unmonitored work on aircraft in foreign countries with no guarantee of safety for U.S. passengers. Someone mentioned that the Mechs are being greedy here, I think that person needs to get his facts straight. As for the rest here who seem eager to jump on the CEO's bandwagon and are not in danger of the subtle threats this company has made against its mechanics jobs and their children's futures, Well you can sit on that cloud all by yourselves as far as I am concerned because you are not on the front lines.
Refs. https://www.swapa.org/news/public-artic ... -emergency
https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/south ... 19b11fd320
 
SwaWife21
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:01 pm

ual763 wrote:
It all comes down to greed and not on the company’s part... The union is never happy, and the employees are constantly fed their bullshit. That is how the Union makes money - stir up employees’ hatred and resentment towards their employer to ensure they keep paying their dues. AMFA is built on false promises. 2 years ago they could have had the beat contract in the industry, yet they turned it down out of greed. I say sue them for everything they’ve got, and in the meantime, outsource everything to a reputable company.





From SwaWife21
The best pay in the industry my foot!
The best pay in the industry is UPS and they are hauling freight NOT PEOPLE!
also if you do the math 100% outsourcing ability = NO jobs No PAY No kids in college and for people who have legit illnesses DEATH!
Do your research, please.
 
SwaWife21
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:35 pm

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:13 pm

Dallas wrote:
slider wrote:
Reading the article, they cite that WN may have an average of 14 out of service A/C per day, but have spiked as high as 62.

That sounds like a deliberate work action to ground aircraft by the mechanics, which would be a breach. And a shitty thing to do, frankly. AMFA has a track record of being militant, so I'm not surprised to see this kind of orchestrated behavior.


A friend at WN showed me a graph that was distributed in a company post by the COO last night showing the daily aircraft out of service count over the past three years. It's pretty eye popping when you look at the last week and it definitely looks like there is a deliberate, orchestrated work action.



It's not. The CBS report on the intimidation tactics by the company and the pressure afterward from the FAA put the mechanics on the spot to step things up. If you look at what the company said last year about making things right with the FAA and beginning more compliance in 2019 you'll that the mechanics are doing what the company and the FAA said to do and the company is using it to bully the union. In negotiations, the company is also using union-busting tactics by delaying processes to wear the mechanics down in order to get rid of them for cheaper outsourcing.
 
SwaWife21
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:37 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
slider wrote:
Reading the article, they cite that WN may have an average of 14 out of service A/C per day, but have spiked as high as 62.

That sounds like a deliberate work action to ground aircraft by the mechanics, which would be a breach. And a shitty thing to do, frankly. AMFA has a track record of being militant, so I'm not surprised to see this kind of orchestrated behavior.

WN has maintenance supervisors and QA people why can review the records and the airplanes. Where are they? If a Maintenance supervisor can't override a mechanic? Then that is one damn poor operation. I worked with a guy who was formerly southwest. He got fired for NOT overlooking a fuselage crack, He was later vindicated and took home close to $500K from WN in court because he had excellent records and the same crack the fired him for had been repaired, So? If there WASN'T a crack? Then how was it that it got flush patched?? Plus? He took a picture of the crack and the registration number before he turned it in to the FAA.



Too true the same crap is still happening all the time there at SW and at AA. On one hand the FAA and SW are telling the mechs compliance, compliance, compliance, on the other they are using it against the mechs. The mechanics are fighting back against the management for all the intimidation and threats now that the public is aware of it thanks to CBS OR CNBC. The Company wants to gloss over it with media saying it's all about the contract negotiations but that isn't true even though the company would surely deserve it if it were. As it is the company wants the union and the mechanics out and will use any means necessary to do that. It's not about the safety of passengers to them it's about the bottom line.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:37 pm

It’s all about the bottom line. Yours. Theirs.
 
ual763
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:58 pm

SwaWife21 wrote:
ual763 wrote:
It all comes down to greed and not on the company’s part... The union is never happy, and the employees are constantly fed their bullshit. That is how the Union makes money - stir up employees’ hatred and resentment towards their employer to ensure they keep paying their dues. AMFA is built on false promises. 2 years ago they could have had the beat contract in the industry, yet they turned it down out of greed. I say sue them for everything they’ve got, and in the meantime, outsource everything to a reputable company.





From SwaWife21
The best pay in the industry my foot!
The best pay in the industry is UPS and they are hauling freight NOT PEOPLE!
also if you do the math 100% outsourcing ability = NO jobs No PAY No kids in college and for people who have legit illnesses DEATH!
Do your research, please.


Reading comprehension is key. I said they “COULD have had the best contract in the industry”. And I’m not talking about the most recent offers... I’m talking about the one they were offered 2 years ago. Since they decided to stick it to the man and turn it down instead because of greed, now I should feel bad for them? You’re just rehashing the typical union selling points - “Company bad, Union good.”
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
SwaWife21
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:26 pm

ual763 wrote:
SwaWife21 wrote:
ual763 wrote:
It all comes down to greed and not on the company’s part... The union is never happy, and the employees are constantly fed their bullshit. That is how the Union makes money - stir up employees’ hatred and resentment towards their employer to ensure they keep paying their dues. AMFA is built on false promises. 2 years ago they could have had the beat contract in the industry, yet they turned it down out of greed. I say sue them for everything they’ve got, and in the meantime, outsource everything to a reputable company.





From SwaWife21
The best pay in the industry my foot!
The best pay in the industry is UPS and they are hauling freight NOT PEOPLE!
also if you do the math 100% outsourcing ability = NO jobs No PAY No kids in college and for people who have legit illnesses DEATH!
Do your research, please.


Reading comprehension is key. I said they “COULD have had the best contract in the industry”. And I’m not talking about the most recent offers... I’m talking about the one they were offered 2 years ago. Since they decided to stick it to the man and turn it down instead because of greed, now I should feel bad for them? You’re just rehashing the typical union selling points - “Company bad, Union good.”[/quote)

Wow did anyone else see that English lit windscreen? You are just as good as the company! My hat is off, lol. However, outsourcing was a part of that contract as well... just to stay on topic. It's no good to have the carrot of a decent raise if you won't have your job long enough to see your first paycheck. Good luck and here's hoping you are in the same boat someday.
 
kiowa
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:39 pm

Are the two sides making any progress after 6 years. Are they still negotiating? What is the next step?
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:12 pm

I think it may get awkward real quick with the ETOPS ops on the one hand coming up against an unhappy group of mechanics on the other. I’m not holding my breath, though.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
SwaWife21
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:33 pm

kiowa wrote:
Are the two sides making any progress after 6 years. Are they still negotiating? What is the next step?



http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com ... id=preview

This is on AMFA LOCAL 11
It mentions what's going on.
From what I understand there wasn't even a rep sent from southwest that was authorized to negotiate at the last designated meeting.
That too was posted in a news article on the web but I didn't remember to copy that link.
 
kiowa
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:05 pm

SwaWife21 wrote:
kiowa wrote:
Are the two sides making any progress after 6 years. Are they still negotiating? What is the next step?



http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com ... id=preview

This is on AMFA LOCAL 11
It mentions what's going on.
From what I understand there wasn't even a rep sent from southwest that was authorized to negotiate at the last designated meeting.
That too was posted in a news article on the web but I didn't remember to copy that link.


That sounds like very bad faith negotiations on the companys part. What happens next??
 
wernerga3
Posts: 346
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:29 pm

wjcandee wrote:
If the militant, demonizing unions can still get people to support them in 2019, swell. The reality, of course, is that most employees don't actually share these values, and would prefer to have a happy union workplace with realistic expectations without all the Norma Rae idealistic drama that comes with being represented by a militant union, but go along because they don't want snakes in their mailbox and their tires slashed if they speak up. But whatever.


This is gospel. Unfortunately, unions plague the simple-minded American with propaganda- no better than political influence or directed marketing. And somehow, it has gotten to the point where, like you said, it is easier not speaking out (like the days of a fraternity or sorority in college where you go with the masses for fear of being ostracized), than dealing with the inherent back-lash and drama.

I have experience with compensation, and can tell you that there is a really bad "idealistic pay" storm coming in the next five years. The people who make minimum wage, or thereabouts (and really only deserve it compared to what they think they should make), feel they are entitled to $15/hr nation-wide (Fight for $15) not beginning to take into account cost of living or cost of labor for different geographic differential markets which these minimum wage workers cannot comprehend whatsoever.

There response is: if management can doll out bonuses, then there obviously is more money for min wage rates. At no time do they want to acknowledge the differing responsibilities they do not have which dictate said bonuses. ie: the risk and reward balance.

All I can say is it is going to get nasty and I hope for precedents sake, the companies who technically have the money (Amazon, Walmart), don't start caving into the demands, as this could put smaller companies who don't have the money out of business very fast- shifting the economy. As it is, Walmart went to a flat $11/hour which is ludicrous in certain markets for the level of work performed, and makes it very hard for small businesses to compete in those markets.

This could ultimately translate into the Aviation Industry as well- as the unions are pumping b.s. into the simple minded workers, who in turn are fighting for something that they most likely will never achieve, because they are manipulated to do so.

Having said all of that, I hope that this mess gets cleared up soon, one way or the other.
 
kiowa
Posts: 758
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:57 pm

wernerga3 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
If the militant, demonizing unions can still get people to support them in 2019, swell. The reality, of course, is that most employees don't actually share these values, and would prefer to have a happy union workplace with realistic expectations without all the Norma Rae idealistic drama that comes with being represented by a militant union, but go along because they don't want snakes in their mailbox and their tires slashed if they speak up. But whatever.


This is gospel. Unfortunately, unions plague the simple-minded American with propaganda- no better than political influence or directed marketing. And somehow, it has gotten to the point where, like you said, it is easier not speaking out (like the days of a fraternity or sorority in college where you go with the masses for fear of being ostracized), than dealing with the inherent back-lash and drama.

I have experience with compensation, and can tell you that there is a really bad "idealistic pay" storm coming in the next five years. The people who make minimum wage, or thereabouts (and really only deserve it compared to what they think they should make), feel they are entitled to $15/hr nation-wide (Fight for $15) not beginning to take into account cost of living or cost of labor for different geographic differential markets which these minimum wage workers cannot comprehend whatsoever.

There response is: if management can doll out bonuses, then there obviously is more money for min wage rates. At no time do they want to acknowledge the differing responsibilities they do not have which dictate said bonuses. ie: the risk and reward balance.

All I can say is it is going to get nasty and I hope for precedents sake, the companies who technically have the money (Amazon, Walmart), don't start caving into the demands, as this could put smaller companies who don't have the money out of business very fast- shifting the economy. As it is, Walmart went to a flat $11/hour which is ludicrous in certain markets for the level of work performed, and makes it very hard for small businesses to compete in those markets.

This could ultimately translate into the Aviation Industry as well- as the unions are pumping b.s. into the simple minded workers, who in turn are fighting for something that they most likely will never achieve, because they are manipulated to do so.

Having said all of that, I hope that this mess gets cleared up soon, one way or the other.


Decent wages are the result of organized labor and the rank and file get the benefits of previous generations of negotiations. I have no problem with that. CEOs making 4000x what the average employee makes/different story. $300 million for a baseball player and I get taxed to pay for a stadium for him to play in/different story. Congress who just votes themselves raises/different story.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 9031
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:15 pm

Decent wages are the result of companies paying money for skills they need. Attempts to monopolize labor in this economy does near-zero to improve wages, and union rules often make hiring decisions binary rather than flexible. I do think that reasonable union work rules enhance safety in highly-rulebound industries, but unfortunately members are sold a bill of goods (one that the poster above apparently believes) to the effect that unions (other than politically-influential public worker unions who turn out votes in return for $$) result in net-increased wages. This generally-speaking is not true, and if you look at what sectors are commanding high pay, they are in non-unionized industries that require education/training and motivation. The market does a fine job in raising wages, and places a premium on harder-to-do jobs. Lots of people don't want to hear that, but trying to create artificial shortages (how's that "pilot shortage" going?) in order to raise wages is generally-speaking pretty-futile.
 
WkndWanderer
Posts: 291
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Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:26 pm

wernerga3 wrote:
All I can say is it is going to get nasty and I hope for precedents sake, the companies who technically have the money (Amazon, Walmart), don't start caving into the demands, as this could put smaller companies who don't have the money out of business very fast- shifting the economy. As it is, Walmart went to a flat $11/hour which is ludicrous in certain markets for the level of work performed, and makes it very hard for small businesses to compete in those markets.


Except that in a full employment economy, pay for the level of worked performed isn't the only compensation driver, you have to offer pay and benefits that will convince people to work for you. With 3.8% unemployment, those Walmart workers you're referring to can find other work that pays $11 hour or more with their skill sets, there is no longer a glut of available workers in more desperate circumstances willing to do the work for bare bones compensation and benefits like there was 10 years ago. Pay also has to be set to recruit and retain workers in an environment where employers are competing for a smaller number of available workers.
 
wernerga3
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:26 pm

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:47 pm

WkndWanderer wrote:
Except that in a full employment economy, pay for the level of worked performed isn't the only compensation driver, you have to offer pay and benefits that will convince people to work for you. With 3.8% unemployment, those Walmart workers you're referring to can find other work that pays $11 hour or more with their skill sets, there is no longer a glut of available workers in more desperate circumstances willing to do the work for bare bones compensation and benefits like there was 10 years ago. Pay also has to be set to recruit and retain workers in an environment where employers are competing for a smaller number of available workers.


All fair arguments- total compensation can make the difference in being externally competitive/Internally equitable. Having said that, very few (if any) hourly workers are getting total comp packages with bonus and stock (the two biggest additional total comp sources)- You can factor in things like healthcare and PTO, but again hourly employees are even limited in those benefits compared to salaried non-exempt or salaried exempt employees.

And even though unemployment is the lowest it has been in ages, it will likely shift, and we will proabably see a recession like 2008 happen all over again (if not worse)- at which point this will not be easily recoverable from- because the precedent will have been set.

I am not saying keep pay stagnant for years- Rather I am saying it should increase more in line with yoy increases of between 3-4%. One of the biggest issues is that during the recent recession, companies were often giving 1-2% increases, or no increases at all! That caused a lot of workers to trail behind standard inflation- Now they want what they feel they should've gotten along the way, all at once- and one has to wonder if that makes any sense. Just because you have the money doens't mean you spend it. That's the difference between someone who has the money today only, and someone who has the money today, and tomorrow when things inevitably shift again in this glorious country.
 
INFINITI329
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Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:08 am

SwaWife21 wrote:
From what I understand there wasn't even a rep sent from southwest that was authorized to negotiate at the last designated meeting.
eye

If this doesn't open people's eyes I don't know what will.
 
mcdu
Posts: 1639
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:35 am

Even the FAA now believes safety is being compromised at WN. This should concern the leadership and customers of WN

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/03/08/faa-warns-southwest-union-that-contract-dispute-poses-safety-concerns.html
 
Bradin
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:12 am

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:40 am

INFINITI329 wrote:
SwaWife21 wrote:
From what I understand there wasn't even a rep sent from southwest that was authorized to negotiate at the last designated meeting.
eye

If this doesn't open people's eyes I don't know what will.


Verifiable source?
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2520
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:57 am

Bradin wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
SwaWife21 wrote:
From what I understand there wasn't even a rep sent from southwest that was authorized to negotiate at the last designated meeting.
eye

If this doesn't open people's eyes I don't know what will.


Verifiable source?


https://medium.com/@AMFANational/delay- ... a03928cd73

Something else was quite disappointing too — after Justin was done speaking and we went to caucus, we were informed that Justin and his team would not be returning for the day. Further, we were told during the presentation that Justin had no authority to negotiate. This was not an exchange of ideas — Southwest denied our information request, and then proceeded to put a member of its team who had virtually no experience with Aircraft Maintenance Technician work and no connection to the negotiations in front of us for a Powerpoint presentation, before promptly leaving for the day. “Antics”? The antics were on the other side of the table, as not one person on the Company’s committee seated at the table or in the room is from Maintenance Tech Ops with decision making power, or know the underlying work rule offsets it has asked for.


This is from the AMFA side so make your own opinion, seems pretty credible to me
 
baqnav
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:08 am

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:35 am

Are you the same as kiowa or mcdu the same as kiowa? if neither of you fly them why so much interest? As a high level FF on another carrier, I find this weird. Maybe move to travel preferences like the southwest thread about hawaii ?
mcdu wrote:
Even the FAA now believes safety is being compromised at WN. This should concern the leadership and customers of WN

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/03/08/faa-warns-southwest-union-that-contract-dispute-poses-safety-concerns.html

P
My opions are mine, not my employers
 
baqnav
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:08 am

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:39 am

baqnav wrote:
Are you the same as kiowa or is mcdu the same as kiowa? if neither of you fly them why so much interest? I do not care. As a high level FF on another carrier, I find this weird and suspicipus. Maybe moderators should move this thread to travel preferences like the southwest thread about hawaii ?
mcdu wrote:
Even the FAA now believes safety is being compromised at WN. This should concern the leadership and customers of WN

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/03/08/faa-warns-southwest-union-that-contract-dispute-poses-safety-concerns.html

P
My opions are mine, not my employers
 
baqnav
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:08 am

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:45 am

baqnav wrote:
baqnav wrote:
Are you the same poster as kiowa or is mcdu the same as kiowa? if neither of you fly them why so much interest? I do not care. As the highest level FF on another carrier, I find this weird and suspicipus. Maybe the moderators should move this thread to travel preferences like the southwest thread about hawaii ticket sales ? Regarrdless, this site is getting obsolete quick with the likes of kiowa and mcdu.
mcdu wrote:
Even the FAA now believes safety is being compromised at WN. This should concern the leadership and customers of WN

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/03/08/faa-warns-southwest-union-that-contract-dispute-poses-safety-concerns.html

P
My opions are mine, not my employers
 
Bradin
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:12 am

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:53 am

INFINITI329 wrote:
Bradin wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
eye

If this doesn't open people's eyes I don't know what will.


Verifiable source?


https://medium.com/@AMFANational/delay- ... a03928cd73

Something else was quite disappointing too — after Justin was done speaking and we went to caucus, we were informed that Justin and his team would not be returning for the day. Further, we were told during the presentation that Justin had no authority to negotiate. This was not an exchange of ideas — Southwest denied our information request, and then proceeded to put a member of its team who had virtually no experience with Aircraft Maintenance Technician work and no connection to the negotiations in front of us for a Powerpoint presentation, before promptly leaving for the day. “Antics”? The antics were on the other side of the table, as not one person on the Company’s committee seated at the table or in the room is from Maintenance Tech Ops with decision making power, or know the underlying work rule offsets it has asked for.


This is from the AMFA side so make your own opinion, seems pretty credible to me


Temporary side tangent. There's a lot of quoting from a Southwest piece. Anyone know where we can find it? Or was it an internal memo? Would appreciate the opportunity to read the entire piece.
 
wernerga3
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:26 pm

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:04 pm

mcdu wrote:
Even the FAA now believes safety is being compromised at WN. This should concern the leadership and customers of WN

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/03/08/faa-warns-southwest-union-that-contract-dispute-poses-safety-concerns.html


I know it is facile to say I hope no one gets hurt- but in light of the back-and-forth nature and inherent tension building between WN and the AMFA, I truly hope no one gets hurt over these shenanigans. I commend the FAA for getting involved on a neutral level.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1437
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:35 pm

This thread, and thw negotiation itself, is a mico-cosm of current issues in the country. Well compensated employees on the one hand, a capitalist company trying to become more efficient and serve more customers in the other.

I wish I knew the relative importance that outsourcing truly played in the union's bargaining position. If they truly cared about jobs, they would keep wages stagnant, or even reduce them. To demand ever increasing pay AND the cessation of ever increasing outsourcing seems to be a nonstarter at the current time, in this market.
 
bob75013
Posts: 987
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:47 pm

SteelChair wrote:
To demand ever increasing pay AND the cessation of ever increasing outsourcing seems to be a nonstarter at the current time, in this market.


Agree. I saw the affect of the higher minimum wage crowd at a McDonald's in downtown Chicago last week. There were no human "order takers" in the restaurant. There were a bunch of touch screen order kiosks -- and one "order bringer" to bring out all the orders.

When wages get too high, companies find ways to bring down costs. For airlines it may be outsourcing some mx. For McDonalds it's touch screen order kiosks.
 
planemechanic
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:31 pm

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:51 pm

Shut them down for six months while both sides come to an agreement. No revenue for the company, no income for the employees. Both sides will be motivated to reach an agreement.
 
kiowa
Posts: 758
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:19 am

SteelChair wrote:
This thread, and thw negotiation itself, is a mico-cosm of current issues in the country. Well compensated employees on the one hand, a capitalist company trying to become more efficient and serve more customers in the other.

I wish I knew the relative importance that outsourcing truly played in the union's bargaining position. If they truly cared about jobs, they would keep wages stagnant, or even reduce them. To demand ever increasing pay AND the cessation of ever increasing outsourcing seems to be a nonstarter at the current time, in this market.


What market would better compensation/working conditions work in?
 
USAirKid
Posts: 657
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:28 am

planemechanic wrote:
Shut them down for six months while both sides come to an agreement. No revenue for the company, no income for the employees. Both sides will be motivated to reach an agreement.


Southwest has a good balance sheet, but that would result in Chapter 11 or 7 pretty quick. Some of the employees might visit WN in bankruptcy court with their own Chapter 7, or maybe a 13.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 9031
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:07 am

wetpantsmcgee wrote:
glideslope900 wrote:
Lol I like how he said “yaw dampeners.”


Are those for keeping the yaw wet?


No. Moist.
 
planemechanic
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:31 pm

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:02 pm

USAirKid wrote:
planemechanic wrote:
Shut them down for six months while both sides come to an agreement. No revenue for the company, no income for the employees. Both sides will be motivated to reach an agreement.


Southwest has a good balance sheet, but that would result in Chapter 11 or 7 pretty quick. Some of the employees might visit WN in bankruptcy court with their own Chapter 7, or maybe a 13.


Sounds like real motivation for the union to cut the crap and the company to come to the table.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2116
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:33 pm

planemechanic wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
planemechanic wrote:
Shut them down for six months while both sides come to an agreement. No revenue for the company, no income for the employees. Both sides will be motivated to reach an agreement.


Southwest has a good balance sheet, but that would result in Chapter 11 or 7 pretty quick. Some of the employees might visit WN in bankruptcy court with their own Chapter 7, or maybe a 13.


Sounds like real motivation for the union to cut the crap and the company to come to the table.

You have zero clue what you speak of. WN outsources more maintenance than any US carrier to a tube of over 80%. They have the least amount of ratio of Mechanic to aircraft and wants to outsource
more and to foreign repair stations. AMFA is not at fault.
 
bob75013
Posts: 987
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:54 pm

planemechanic wrote:
Shut them down for six months while both sides come to an agreement. No revenue for the company, no income for the employees. Both sides will be motivated to reach an agreement.


and who will fly the 160,000,000 million pax/year that WN flies when that happens?
 
kiowa
Posts: 758
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:55 pm

bob75013 wrote:
planemechanic wrote:
Shut them down for six months while both sides come to an agreement. No revenue for the company, no income for the employees. Both sides will be motivated to reach an agreement.


and who will fly the 160,000,000 million pax/year that WN flies when that happens?


I would hope both sides would be mature enough to prevent that.
 
mcdu
Posts: 1639
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: Southwest Files Lawsuit Against Mechanics Union

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:20 pm

AMFA is not backing down. Now they are counter suing WN. This is such an interesting twist in the history of WN. This is definitely brinkmanship plays by both parties. AMFA should be lobbying to get released so they can start the 30 day countdown to a strike. That’s the only thing WN management will actually respond to with a deal in my opinion. The rest of this will be using the courts to put financial strain on the union.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/grantmartin/2019/03/09/mechanics-union-at-southwest-counter-sues-airline-amidst-labor-dispute-and-faa-safety-concerns/amp/

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