Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
Zoedyn
Topic Author
Posts: 789
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:46 pm

Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:05 am

Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal on Jet
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... eal-on-jet

Airbus Said to Consider Making Newest Jet in China to Win Orders
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... win-orders

Apparently, two highly related Bloomberg reports involving Rolls-Royce and Airbus toward China out of similar motives

Rolls-Royce is offering to set up an aircraft engine assembly line in China as it seeks a deal in contest with GE to supply turbines for China's wide-body passenger jet CR929 (in cooperation with Russia). Meanwhile Airbus is said to be considering assembling its newest A330neo wide-body jet in Chinese port city Tianjin as part of a bid to win orders from China

So, what conditions would China raise for such proposals to be accepted on the Chinese part? How much would RR and Airbus prepare to "sacrifice" in order to win their intended deals? What's the likelihood for such proposals to go ahead? Interesting to note further developments
 
User avatar
LaunchDetected
Posts: 319
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:42 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:18 am

China Eastern = 33 A332 + 24 A333
Air China = 30 A332 + 29 A333
China Southern = 16 A332 + 26 A333
Hainan Airlines = 8 A332 + 14 A333
Hong Kong Airlines = 9 A332 + 11 A333
Sichuan Airlines = 6 A332 + 6 A333
Cathay Pacific = 34 A333
Cathay Dragon = 24 A333
+ Several smaller operators

It makes around 110 A332 and 180 A333. Almost 300 A330 to replace in the coming years. But some of them are already being replaced (by the 787 or A350). I can see the appeal for Airbus to add the "Made in China" selling point. A330neo, A350, 787, all of them are Rolls-Royce-only aircrafts.
Caravelle lover
 
chonetsao
Posts: 673
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:35 am

LaunchDetected wrote:
China Eastern = 33 A332 + 24 A333
Air China = 30 A332 + 29 A333
China Southern = 16 A332 + 26 A333
Hainan Airlines = 8 A332 + 14 A333
Hong Kong Airlines = 9 A332 + 11 A333
Sichuan Airlines = 6 A332 + 6 A333
Cathay Pacific = 34 A333
Cathay Dragon = 24 A333
+ Several smaller operators

It makes around 110 A332 and 180 A333. Almost 300 A330 to replace in the coming years. But some of them are already being replaced (by the 787 or A350). I can see the appeal for Airbus to add the "Made in China" selling point. A330neo, A350, 787, all of them are Rolls-Royce-only aircrafts.


You need to discount Hong Kong Airlines, Cathay Pacific and Cathay Dragon.

I don't think these said three Hong Kong based airlines would purchase aircraft assembled in Tianjin. There is no advantage for them to do so. Any Chinese assembled aircraft would be for mainland carriers only as their purchase is decided by the central government, not airline headquarters. That is very different from how airlines based in Hong Kong operates. Plus, Cathay Pacific and Dragon has no intention to book any A330 at current time.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:39 am

chonetsao wrote:
LaunchDetected wrote:
China Eastern = 33 A332 + 24 A333
Air China = 30 A332 + 29 A333
China Southern = 16 A332 + 26 A333
Hainan Airlines = 8 A332 + 14 A333
Hong Kong Airlines = 9 A332 + 11 A333
Sichuan Airlines = 6 A332 + 6 A333
Cathay Pacific = 34 A333
Cathay Dragon = 24 A333
+ Several smaller operators

It makes around 110 A332 and 180 A333. Almost 300 A330 to replace in the coming years. But some of them are already being replaced (by the 787 or A350). I can see the appeal for Airbus to add the "Made in China" selling point. A330neo, A350, 787, all of them are Rolls-Royce-only aircrafts.


You need to discount Hong Kong Airlines, Cathay Pacific and Cathay Dragon.

I don't think these said three Hong Kong based airlines would purchase aircraft assembled in Tianjin. There is no advantage for them to do so. Any Chinese assembled aircraft would be for mainland carriers only as their purchase is decided by the central government, not airline headquarters. That is very different from how airlines based in Hong Kong operates. Plus, Cathay Pacific and Dragon has no intention to book any A330 at current time.


The A320 family aircraft assembled in China are not only sold to airlines in the PRC and in the PRC not only to the airlines owned by the central government.

Airbus and Boeing could set up production facilities to push sales to the PRC, but there is no need to look at the PRC market only. So there is no need to discount the Hong Kong airlines. Anyway the PRC looks at Hong Kong as part of the PRC.
 
User avatar
EightyFour
Posts: 83
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:35 am

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:49 am

Typical short-sightedness on behalf of western companies when dealing with China. Get short term orders now (or lower production costs now), while sacrificing the long term viability of the business. After the Chinese "transfer" any technology they might want or need the western company will get kicked out from China and then get outcompeted by cheaper Chinese alternatives. "But" they will say, "for a beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for shareholders".
 
airbazar
Posts: 10177
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:10 pm

chonetsao wrote:

You need to discount Hong Kong Airlines, Cathay Pacific and Cathay Dragon.

I don't think these said three Hong Kong based airlines would purchase aircraft assembled in Tianjin.


Why not? It makes no difference where the aircraft is assembled. That's like saying only U.S. carriers will buy aircraft assembled in Mobile.
Airbus already has an A330 completion and delivery center in Tianjin. Adding an assembly facility for an older model that doesn't sell very much, in a cheaper region and closer to where a lot of its customers are seems like a logical step.

EightyFour wrote:
Typical short-sightedness on behalf of western companies when dealing with China. Get short term orders now (or lower production costs now), while sacrificing the long term viability of the business

While I generally agree with this sentiment, in this case there is "no long term" for the A330.
 
User avatar
BaconButty
Posts: 822
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:42 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:16 pm

EightyFour wrote:
Typical short-sightedness on behalf of western companies when dealing with China. Get short term orders now (or lower production costs now), while sacrificing the long term viability of the business. After the Chinese "transfer" any technology they might want or need the western company will get kicked out from China and then get outcompeted by cheaper Chinese alternatives. "But" they will say, "for a beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for shareholders".

It's a decade since the Chinese A320 FAL delivered its first aircraft. The same things were said then. And COMAC continue to struggle in aircraft design and certification. Which is not surprising, since a FAL wouldn't help in that respect.

Edit: And RR would have a line building Trent 7000's - first for A330's then for 929's (if and when it happens). Hardly giving away the family silver.
Last edited by BaconButty on Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
Noshow
Posts: 1666
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:18 pm

Airbus might need hangar space in Toulouse to beef up A350 production rates. So moving the A330neo line to Tianjin would help plus it is the biggest market for the A330neo. Building western engines in China is the remarkable part. Will it be possible to keep all the secrets? GE has refused hasn't it? Now RR seems to be willing.
 
User avatar
GEUltraFan9XGTF
Posts: 385
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:31 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:23 pm

Seems shortsighted. There is a big difference between a FAL and engine assembly, especially when the latter is a competency that China lacks in many areas. I hope RR doesn't do anything with UltraFan there.
© 2020. All statements are my own. The use of my statements, including by journalists, YouTube vloggers like "DJ's Aviation", etc. without my written consent is strictly prohibited.
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1868
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:35 pm

And then companies and governments scream that they are made to surrender their their technologies and company secrets to China
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1343
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:56 pm

Airbus is clearly losing focus and becoming the Norwegian of aircraft manufacturing.
They are trying to have a FAL on every continent, with a supply chain on every other continent, as if to hedge from a meteorite impact.
It seems that they bought into Boeing's point to point slogan more than anybody else.

China will order A330neo's either way.
If anything, Airbus should have tried the strategy with A380's where more manpower is involved and lohistics could be simplified by putting everything on boats.
So what if they put a FAL there and the Chinese order B787's anyway? The A330 completion facility hasn't exactly stopped them from doing just that.
 
babastud
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:38 am

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:57 pm

EightyFour wrote:
Typical short-sightedness on behalf of western companies when dealing with China. Get short term orders now (or lower production costs now), while sacrificing the long term viability of the business. After the Chinese "transfer" any technology they might want or need the western company will get kicked out from China and then get outcompeted by cheaper Chinese alternatives. "But" they will say, "for a beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for shareholders".



Well Said! it's as if they have not learned anything in all these years...
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2635
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:44 am

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:12 pm

EightyFour wrote:
Typical short-sightedness on behalf of western companies when dealing with China. Get short term orders now (or lower production costs now), while sacrificing the long term viability of the business

While I generally agree with this sentiment, in this case there is "no long term" for the A330.


Its not about the A330....its about giving China the technology that will enable them to compete head on with western manufacturers in future....
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3524
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:23 pm

EightyFour wrote:
Typical short-sightedness on behalf of western companies when dealing with China. Get short term orders now (or lower production costs now), while sacrificing the long term viability of the business. After the Chinese "transfer" any technology they might want or need the western company will get kicked out from China and then get outcompeted by cheaper Chinese alternatives. "But" they will say, "for a beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for shareholders".


Come on...we all know (mainland) Chinese are going to "improve" those engines and then claim it's "First engines (for widebodies?) 'design' in PRC" :white:

chonetsao wrote:
You need to discount Hong Kong Airlines, Cathay Pacific and Cathay Dragon.

I don't think these said three Hong Kong based airlines would purchase aircraft assembled in Tianjin. There is no advantage for them to do so. Any Chinese assembled aircraft would be for mainland carriers only as their purchase is decided by the central government, not airline headquarters. That is very different from how airlines based in Hong Kong operates. Plus, Cathay Pacific and Dragon has no intention to book any A330 at current time.


HX right now is still more or less a PRC company :lol: (HNA still holds control of them...for now). It's far from a "Hong Kong" Airlines anyway.

BTW, like some other said, Tianjin-assemble A320 goes outside PRC also (Mainly to SE Asia i.e. Philippines or Thailand).
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 5286
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:39 pm

LaunchDetected wrote:
A330neo, A350, 787, all of them are Rolls-Royce-only aircrafts.


Are you sure about the 787...? :shakehead:
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 2406
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:45 pm

Airbus and RR will rue the the day
 
User avatar
LaunchDetected
Posts: 319
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:42 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:46 pm

PM wrote:
LaunchDetected wrote:
A330neo, A350, 787, all of them are Rolls-Royce-only aircrafts.


Are you sure about the 787...? :shakehead:


Oops, i forgot to remove the « -only ».
Caravelle lover
 
global2
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:50 am

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:10 pm

babastud wrote:
EightyFour wrote:
Typical short-sightedness on behalf of western companies when dealing with China. Get short term orders now (or lower production costs now), while sacrificing the long term viability of the business. After the Chinese "transfer" any technology they might want or need the western company will get kicked out from China and then get outcompeted by cheaper Chinese alternatives. "But" they will say, "for a beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for shareholders".



Well Said! it's as if they have not learned anything in all these years...


:checkmark:
 
bigjku
Posts: 1906
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:24 pm

Noshow wrote:
Airbus might need hangar space in Toulouse to beef up A350 production rates. So moving the A330neo line to Tianjin would help plus it is the biggest market for the A330neo. Building western engines in China is the remarkable part. Will it be possible to keep all the secrets? GE has refused hasn't it? Now RR seems to be willing.


Airbus declined to take the rate from 10 to 13 a month in existing facilities. There apparently isn’t demand for it. I can’t imagine they need more space for it. That wouldn’t have anything to do with this I don’t think.
 
PixelPilot
Posts: 563
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:19 am

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:26 pm

Almost makes RR look desperate.
Future will tell but that's a dangerous move if you ask me.
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 931
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:33 pm

Set up shop in China and transfer your technology there? Yeah, that makes sense. I could see setting up a chair or seat business, some interior stuff, but to make entire engines and planes there? Given China's past history concerning technology transfers, this doesn't look like a great move, trading some short term benefits for creating a long term competitor.
 
chonetsao
Posts: 673
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:37 pm

airbazar wrote:
chonetsao wrote:

You need to discount Hong Kong Airlines, Cathay Pacific and Cathay Dragon.

I don't think these said three Hong Kong based airlines would purchase aircraft assembled in Tianjin.


Why not? It makes no difference where the aircraft is assembled. That's like saying only U.S. carriers will buy aircraft assembled in Mobile.
Airbus already has an A330 completion and delivery center in Tianjin. Adding an assembly facility for an older model that doesn't sell very much, in a cheaper region and closer to where a lot of its customers are seems like a logical step.

EightyFour wrote:
Typical short-sightedness on behalf of western companies when dealing with China. Get short term orders now (or lower production costs now), while sacrificing the long term viability of the business

While I generally agree with this sentiment, in this case there is "no long term" for the A330.


It certainly does where the aircraft is assembled. Have you ever heard of 'import' and 'export' taxes?

Let me give you a hint, all parts of the automobile made in US and then exported to China has variable import tax, but much less than a fully assemble automobile even all parts are the same. So let us say, Buick is exporting a US made Buick to China, it needed to pay X amount of duty. But if Buick exports all parts of this car to China as parts, and assemble them in a tax free zone in Tianjin or Shanghai, Buick would pay little or zero tax to sell the same product, as well as local (free zone) tax breaks and refunds.

So how is this method going to benefit a Hong Kong based airline where there is no tax issues at all due to free trade and local tax arrangement?

In your example, would the aircraft assembled in Mobile benefit any airlines that is based in Mexico or Canada? Would that make any difference for a Mexico airliner purchase its aircraft directly from France or Mobile, USA?

PRC would like to think Hong Kong SAR as PRC. But the immigration policy and tax regime stays separate. Hong Kong sets its own tax laws, at least for now. There is no advantage for Hong Kong based airlines to take aircraft assembled in China. Airbus make the assembly facility in China is to sell aircraft to mainland carriers and to please mainland government, not to Hong Kong carriers.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8524
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:05 pm

Is Airbus going to use the factory in China to stick Chinese airlines and consumers with higher aircraft acquisition costs?
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
osiris30
Posts: 2681
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:31 pm

This is interesting news in light of the NMA announcement. It really makes me question what troubles Rolls may be going through that force them to step away from competing on the NMA and focusing on a 929. I am guessing a combination of finances, potential financial incentives and Brexit are all contributing to these moves.

This looks like a "beginning of the end" sort of story for Rolls. At least as a going independent concern

Incidentally it also makes me further question the EIS date for their ultrafan.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
wingman
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:09 pm

Noshow wrote:
Airbus might need hangar space in Toulouse to beef up A350 production rates. So moving the A330neo line to Tianjin would help plus it is the biggest market for the A330neo. Building western engines in China is the remarkable part. Will it be possible to keep all the secrets? GE has refused hasn't it? Now RR seems to be willing.


You can't keep the secrets from Seattle, San Jose, Derby or Toulouse. RR might as well just hand over the machinery and blue prints. Every single high tech Western CTO and CEO cites Chinese IP theft as the number, or a top 3 minimum, concern for their company's survival. And the twist here is conjecture that Airbus will buy RR at some point soon only to have RR set up shop in China to build engines for a Chinese WB that would stick the knife in the 330NEO? I struggle to see any logic there. China is coming to eat everyone's lunch and this is just making it for them and setting the table.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5318
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:15 pm

Airbus is not stupid. It guards its secret very well. China is getting some experience and knowledge of final assemblies from this, but it’s not going to be able to get anything significant. Or else, c919 will be a lot less of a struggle than it is now. Ask any Chinese in civil aviation. They can’t get any technology off western companies.
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 931
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:27 pm

They can over time. China generally requires Western companies doing business there to share their technologies, techniques, and in some instances their patents with them, or at least grant their state owned companies licenses to use said patents. The aim is to gather technology, experience and general know how. The fact that they were essentially able to reverse engineer a Mad Dog, improve upon it in some ways, and produce it should be proof enough of their ability to get something done when they want to. The C919 was another significant milestone; folks in the West may poo poo it today, but they shouldn't as it represent a significant step in the direction China wants to travel in industrially. No, they aren't "there yet" regarding other construction, research and assembly issues, but give them time and they will be. Baby steps, people, baby steps. Rolls and Airbus may yet rue the day. It will be in the future, but of they continue down this path that day will come sooner rather than later.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20265
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:28 pm

tphuang wrote:
Airbus is not stupid. It guards its secret very well. China is getting some experience and knowledge of final assemblies from this, but it’s not going to be able to get anything significant. Or else, c919 will be a lot less of a struggle than it is now. Ask any Chinese in civil aviation. They can’t get any technology off western companies.

They take plenty. It is impossible to truly firewall everything.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1042
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:34 pm

osiris30 wrote:
This is interesting news in light of the NMA announcement. It really makes me question what troubles Rolls may be going through that force them to step away from competing on the NMA and focusing on a 929. I am guessing a combination of finances, potential financial incentives and Brexit are all contributing to these moves.

This looks like a "beginning of the end" sort of story for Rolls. At least as a going independent concern

Incidentally it also makes me further question the EIS date for their ultrafan.

A lot of speculation and wishfull thinking?
 
stephanwintner
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:04 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:01 pm

What could anyone learn of a FAL for an engine, that they could not also learn from an engine overhaul facility? I think there are several such in PRC.

The secret sauce in an engine lies in the metallurgy (casting cored airfoils, especially single crystal alloys, is not simple), in the engineering of the cooling and combustion flows, and in the repair welding & coating techniques for hot section components (new, and overhaul). Ceramic Matrix Composites, in GE's case. And a bit in fan, compressor, and turbine aerodynamics. Locating an FAL there is not a significant technology transfer - if it is only an FAL.
 
osiris30
Posts: 2681
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:36 pm

marcelh wrote:
osiris30 wrote:
This is interesting news in light of the NMA announcement. It really makes me question what troubles Rolls may be going through that force them to step away from competing on the NMA and focusing on a 929. I am guessing a combination of finances, potential financial incentives and Brexit are all contributing to these moves.

This looks like a "beginning of the end" sort of story for Rolls. At least as a going independent concern

Incidentally it also makes me further question the EIS date for their ultrafan.

A lot of speculation and wishfull thinking?


A lot of speculation. I have no desire to see Rolls disappear. I used to be a huge RR fan actually. I have been less impressed in the last 10+ years. Rolls faces some legitimate challenges. Now each manufacturer has their struggles right now, I just see Rolls in the worst position currently. Which is interesting as on the commercial side I would have handed that crown to Pratt 10 years ago.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
Motorhussy
Posts: 3673
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:49 am

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:52 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
Set up shop in China and transfer your technology there? Yeah, that makes sense. I could see setting up a chair or seat business, some interior stuff, but to make entire engines and planes there? Given China's past history concerning technology transfers, this doesn't look like a great move, trading some short term benefits for creating a long term competitor.


Kinda makes me chuckle how we are so politely calling it this when in fact we’re referring to intellectual property theft and industrial espionage.
come visit the south pacific
 
exmike
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:45 am

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:02 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
Set up shop in China and transfer your technology there? Yeah, that makes sense. I could see setting up a chair or seat business, some interior stuff, but to make entire engines and planes there? Given China's past history concerning technology transfers, this doesn't look like a great move, trading some short term benefits for creating a long term competitor.


I'm sure in 10 years we'll see an "indigenously designed engine and aircraft with locally derived intellectual property" that has a stunning resemblance to a trent 700 and a 330. Sound familiar? Western firms will never learn. It is so incredibly shortsighted to reap some profits today to sacrifice your competitive edge in future. SMH.
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 931
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:08 pm

Kinda makes me chuckle how we are so politely calling it this when in fact we’re referring to intellectual property theft and industrial espionage.


Well, I'm trying to be more polite than my normal grumpy self!

I'm sure in 10 years we'll see an "indigenously designed engine and aircraft with locally derived intellectual property" that has a stunning resemblance to a trent 700 and a 330. Sound familiar? Western firms will never learn. It is so incredibly shortsighted to reap some profits today to sacrifice your competitive edge in future. SMH.



:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 3150
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:18 pm

I don't see engine assembly as a transfer of technology. It is just a engine overhaul shop that only uses new parts. MAKING the parts is the transfer of technology. The parts for these engines will still be made by the current suppliers ans ship to China to be assembled. Airlines all around the world do this work everyday.
 
DigitalSea
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:28 pm

Re: Bloomberg: Rolls-Royce Offers China Engine Plant to Win Deal; Airbus Plans to Make Newest Jet in China to Win Orders

Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:33 pm

EightyFour wrote:
Typical short-sightedness on behalf of western companies when dealing with China. Get short term orders now (or lower production costs now), while sacrificing the long term viability of the business. After the Chinese "transfer" any technology they might want or need the western company will get kicked out from China and then get outcompeted by cheaper Chinese alternatives. "But" they will say, "for a beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for shareholders".


Bingo.

Dalmd88 wrote:
I don't see engine assembly as a transfer of technology. It is just a engine overhaul shop that only uses new parts. MAKING the parts is the transfer of technology. The parts for these engines will still be made by the current suppliers ans ship to China to be assembled. Airlines all around the world do this work everyday.


Because when dollar signs are flowing, it opens up the possibility for more opportunities. That is why China tries to entice companies with unbelievable opportunities. It's any wonder the West sobered up when it did from its China gluttony.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos