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Western727
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SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:22 pm

:o

https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News ... LG6TLZ0p8E

Please delete if a duplicate; not able to find a thread on this.

Does anyone know what the "incident" was that caused this guy's fraud to be discovered?
Jack @ AUS
 
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Siren
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:35 pm

It should be noted that he did hold a valid Commercial Pilot License - the distinction here is that he did not hold an Airline Transport Pilot license. Apparently he was hired as a First Officer for SAA with the CPL in place, but SAA policy requires that new hires obtain their ATP license within 5 years, a requirement that he did not fulfill...

Now, the airline is demanding he pay back his salary for the many years he was employed and out of compliance with this requirement. It should be interesting to see if they are able to collect - but I doubt it...
 
Western727
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:42 pm

Siren wrote:
It should be noted that he did hold a valid Commercial Pilot License - the distinction here is that he did not hold an Airline Transport Pilot license. Apparently he was hired as a First Officer for SAA with the CPL in place, but SAA policy requires that new hires obtain their ATP license within 5 years, a requirement that he did not fulfill...

Now, the airline is demanding he pay back his salary for the many years he was employed and out of compliance with this requirement. It should be interesting to see if they are able to collect - but I doubt it...


Thanks for pointing that out, Siren, and you're right. I find it amazing that he was able to stay under the radar during (and after) the ATP "upgrade" requirement in 1999, 5 years after he joined the company.
Jack @ AUS
 
kaitak
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:47 pm

My thoughts exactly. Does this raise questions about regulatory oversight in SA. Were there no check rides? I thought that as part of these and annual sim checks, they would check all licences at the same time?

His fault, of course, but it does reflect badly on SAA and its record keeping. I’m sure the South CAA will be looking into this carefully and if one got through for 20 years, might there be others? And if they fell short on recording that, what other mandatory records might they fall short on? Maintenance? Training? Other regulatory requirements.
 
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zeke
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:52 pm

This is the newspapers making something out of nothing. To by an FO you only need to have a CPL, a Captain needs an ATPL.

Since he was only an FO there is nothing fraudulent about this.

And 20 years ago they were not called ATPL, they were called senior commercial pilots licence.

The point about them needing to upgrade from CPL to ATPL within 5 years of joining is not a regulatory issue, it is purely part of their conditions of employment. That may be varied by the company.
Last edited by zeke on Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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loranfair
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:52 pm

This brings back a vague memory I have. IIRC in the 60s or early 70s there was a captain on, I believe it was Eastern who only had a private pilot's license. He was caught, after passing who knows how many checkridea, by a FAA inspector who actually asked to see his ATP certificate. before a checkride.
 
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FredrikHAD
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:18 pm

loranfair wrote:
This brings back a vague memory I have. IIRC in the 60s or early 70s there was a captain on, I believe it was Eastern who only had a private pilot's license. He was caught, after passing who knows how many checkridea, by a FAA inspector who actually asked to see his ATP certificate. before a checkride.


It's amazing that the FAA inspectors don't look them up in the database. Should they trust the pilot's own piece of paper more than their own database???

Unfortunately, this is not unheard of. I'm embarrassed to say that a countryman of mine flew "passenger jets" for 13 years without a certificate:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Salme

"Thomas Harry Salme (born 18 February 1969) is a Swedish photographer and documentary film maker and also a former pilot who became a celebrity after flying passenger jets for thirteen years without a commercial pilot's license. He's now living in Milano, Italy, with his 3 children. After working as a captain from 1997 to 2010 for several international airline companies – such as the Turkish and Dutch Corendon Airlines, the Italian Air One, and the English Jet2 – Salme was arrested at Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport in March 2010. Nowadays he has gone back to his original passion for photography and filmmaking" [good for him...]

/Fredrik
 
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:32 pm

loranfair wrote:
This brings back a vague memory I have. IIRC in the 60s or early 70s there was a captain on, I believe it was Eastern who only had a private pilot's license. He was caught, after passing who knows how many checkridea, by a FAA inspector who actually asked to see his ATP certificate. before a checkride.


Yes,

Perhaps the most interesting of the “pilot conmen” to me is Jimmie Lane. Lane held only a Private pilot’s license but hoodwinked Eastern Air Lines into hiring him in 1958.

Jimmie Lane wanted to fly and he talked his way into cadet training for the Navy and, later Marines. He actually flew as pilot on bombers during the Korean War, being discharged in 1955 with two Purple Hearts from shrapnel wounds during combat. He returned to his native Texas and wangled a crop-dusting job, still holding only a Private license. He then moved to Guatemala and crop-dusted until being called in for an interview with Eastern.


He successfully trained and became line-qualified for Eastern as a co-pilot on Martin 404s, Douglas DC-4s, DC-6s, DC-7s, Lockheed Electras, Lockheed Constellations and Convair 440s. Not once in all of this training nor during the required check-ride events did anyone ask to see his license. During the Eastern interview, he told them he had a Commercial license which was partially true. He had a Guatemalan Commercial which was neither an ICAO recognized “real” pilot license nor acceptable by Eastern and his only recognized license was still was a Private.

After 11 years flying for Eastern, he stopped by the chief pilot’s office one day and mentioned he had just obtained a DC-9 type rating on his own. The secretaries updated their pilots’ master list and soon Lane’s seniority made him eligible to upgrade as captain on DC-9s. Because he feared that the paperwork at Eastern’s type rating school might tip off the FAA, Lane chose to schedule the check-ride without the benefit of any training. In the coming weeks, he consumed all he could from the DC-9 manual. On February 26, 1968, FAA examiner Clay Cairl administered the check ride to Jimmie Lane. At the completion of his exhausting check-ride, he felt good about his performance, proved he was master of the airplane and has passed the check ride. Then the examiner asked him for his pilot’s license. His little deception was over.



GF
 
Western727
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:52 pm

zeke wrote:
This is the newspapers making something out of nothing. To by an FO you only need to have a CPL, a Captain needs an ATPL.

Since he was only an FO there is nothing fraudulent about this.

And 20 years ago they were not called ATPL, they were called senior commercial pilots licence.

The point about them needing to upgrade from CPL to ATPL within 5 years of joining is not a regulatory issue, it is purely part of their conditions of employment. That may be varied by the company.


Lying to an airline about having acquired an ATP within the company-required 5 years...is fraud. The definition of the term does not require defrauding a government body; it involves misrepresentation or deception for financial or personal gain. This guy's act sure seems to fit the bill.
Jack @ AUS
 
sciing
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:55 pm

zeke wrote:
This is the newspapers making something out of nothing. To by an FO you only need to have a CPL, a Captain needs an ATPL.

Since he was only an FO there is nothing fraudulent about this.

And 20 years ago they were not called ATPL, they were called senior commercial pilots licence.

The point about them needing to upgrade from CPL to ATPL within 5 years of joining is not a regulatory issue, it is purely part of their conditions of employment. That may be varied by the company.


Thank you, I really wonder why some anet posters support such Bullshit papers with their links and starting the threads.
 
Western727
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:58 pm

sciing wrote:
zeke wrote:
This is the newspapers making something out of nothing. To by an FO you only need to have a CPL, a Captain needs an ATPL.

Since he was only an FO there is nothing fraudulent about this.

And 20 years ago they were not called ATPL, they were called senior commercial pilots licence.

The point about them needing to upgrade from CPL to ATPL within 5 years of joining is not a regulatory issue, it is purely part of their conditions of employment. That may be varied by the company.


Thank you, I really wonder why some anet posters support such Bullshit papers with their links and starting the threads.


Are you actually saying that you're OK with a pilot lying to an airline about having acquired an ATP in the company-required time frame? What am I missing?
Jack @ AUS
 
sciing
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:04 pm

Western727 wrote:
zeke wrote:
This is the newspapers making something out of nothing. To by an FO you only need to have a CPL, a Captain needs an ATPL.

Since he was only an FO there is nothing fraudulent about this.

And 20 years ago they were not called ATPL, they were called senior commercial pilots licence.

The point about them needing to upgrade from CPL to ATPL within 5 years of joining is not a regulatory issue, it is purely part of their conditions of employment. That may be varied by the company.


Lying to an airline about having acquired an ATP within the company-required 5 years...is fraud. The definition of the term does not require defrauding a government body; it involves misrepresentation or deception for financial or personal gain. This guy's act sure seems to fit the bill.


He had the licenses for the job he was doing!
Something you seem to forgot to mention.

I really wonder what kind of site you link here. If you want to put quality down, go on, but do expect any respect! I do not read such BS papers for a good reason and I would appreciate if you could keep this site clean!
 
Western727
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:12 pm

sciing wrote:
Western727 wrote:
zeke wrote:
This is the newspapers making something out of nothing. To by an FO you only need to have a CPL, a Captain needs an ATPL.

Since he was only an FO there is nothing fraudulent about this.

And 20 years ago they were not called ATPL, they were called senior commercial pilots licence.

The point about them needing to upgrade from CPL to ATPL within 5 years of joining is not a regulatory issue, it is purely part of their conditions of employment. That may be varied by the company.


Lying to an airline about having acquired an ATP within the company-required 5 years...is fraud. The definition of the term does not require defrauding a government body; it involves misrepresentation or deception for financial or personal gain. This guy's act sure seems to fit the bill.


He had the licenses for the job he was doing!
Something you seem to forgot to mention.

I really wonder what kind of site you link here. If you want to put quality down, go on, but do expect any respect! I do not read such BS papers for a good reason and I would appreciate if you could keep this site clean!


Sorry to anger you; such was not my intention. Still, the article is fairly clear about the company policy of FOs getting ATPs within 5 years of employment. So, under SAA policy he did not seem to have the license for the job he was doing.
Jack @ AUS
 
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:23 pm

Western727 wrote:
Lying to an airline about having acquired an ATP within the company-required 5 years...is fraud. The definition of the term does not require defrauding a government body; it involves misrepresentation or deception for financial or personal gain. This guy's act sure seems to fit the bill.


But let's not pretend that SAA is blameless here. Seems like a lack of diligence by the airline to me.
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FlyHappy
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:28 pm

zeke wrote:
To by an FO you only need to have a CPL, a Captain needs an ATPL.



no kidding? I learn something new everyday, it seems.
Is this true globally?

how "hard" is it for an actively working CPL to attain ATPL?
 
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:31 pm

scbriml wrote:
Western727 wrote:
Lying to an airline about having acquired an ATP within the company-required 5 years...is fraud. The definition of the term does not require defrauding a government body; it involves misrepresentation or deception for financial or personal gain. This guy's act sure seems to fit the bill.


But let's not pretend that SAA is blameless here. Seems like a lack of diligence by the airline to me.


Totally agree!
To me it is the company (SAA) to blame for the poor practice they have.
There is no salary he should pay back, just SAA apologise to their travellers and other workers for being not able to check its employees documents.

Now SAA should:
- make sure he gets the ATPL or work according to the documents the employee has.
- change their internal procedures
 
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:40 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
zeke wrote:
To by an FO you only need to have a CPL, a Captain needs an ATPL.



no kidding? I learn something new everyday, it seems.
Is this true globally?

how "hard" is it for an actively working CPL to attain ATPL?


It's true for all of the world except the USA, where both pilots are required to hold an ATP. Additionally the captain must have 1,000 hours as an F/O to become a captain.

V
 
Josh32121
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:56 pm

This is honestly kind of a bizarre case in my opinion. What actual damage did SAA sustain because of the gap between their requirement and his qualifications? Was it a root cause of the incident on the JNB-FRA flight? Were they fined? And is there no expectation that they should have discovered it far earlier than 20 years down the road? It just seems like grasping at straws to scrounge up some cash. What point is it proving besides wielding a big stick?
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:21 pm

How the heck did this get past the airline and regulators? I would be surprised if criminal charges don’t result.
 
Western727
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:37 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
How the heck did this get past the airline and regulators? I would be surprised if criminal charges don’t result.


To clarify, it appears that South Africa doesn't require FOs to have ATPs, only captains. So the fraud appears limited to South African Airways and its company policy for FOs to get ATPs within 5 years of employment.
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Antarius
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:02 pm

Josh32121 wrote:
This is honestly kind of a bizarre case in my opinion. What actual damage did SAA sustain because of the gap between their requirement and his qualifications? Was it a root cause of the incident on the JNB-FRA flight? Were they fined? And is there no expectation that they should have discovered it far earlier than 20 years down the road? It just seems like grasping at straws to scrounge up some cash. What point is it proving besides wielding a big stick?


I mean, by that metric, what's the harm in someone not even getting a license at all and as long as they can fly, it's all good. Or not getting a degree from University, claiming you have one to get in somewhere etc.

Its fraud.
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Josh32121
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:19 pm

I don't disagree that's it's a mild form of fraud. But my point is there's no damage to be remedied by the legal action. One one hand, it's an enormous hassle for the accused, which may serve as a deterrent to any others in the same situation. But on the other hand, it exposes poor oversight on SAA's part. Why open people's eyes to that vs. the bragging rights of f-ing up one guy's life?
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:28 pm

It is not fraud if the FO did not assert that he had an ATPL. Fraud (outside of securities law) requires a positive action meant to deceive. When did the FO do that? He held an FO job. The blame here is SAA HR, not the FO. Is it fraud to drive your car if you forgot your driver's license? No. It's a violation if caught. That's not fraud.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:29 pm

Well, by now he has 20 years experience and he's done a better job than a lot of guys with proper licenses.
 
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:47 pm

Someone watched a lot of Suits
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Antarius
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:05 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
It is not fraud if the FO did not assert that he had an ATPL. Fraud (outside of securities law) requires a positive action meant to deceive. When did the FO do that? He held an FO job. The blame here is SAA HR, not the FO. Is it fraud to drive your car if you forgot your driver's license? No. It's a violation if caught. That's not fraud.


I'm assuming as part of the employment contract, it would state that an ATPL is required within 5 years.

I do agree that SAA HR is also to blame, but I do not think this can be simply chalked up to negligence on the part of the pilot.
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airbuster
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:11 pm

I have a vague recollection of an incident several years ago at SA airlink where some CPL holder bought his ATPL illegally from the CAA. Here’s the link:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... dal-67369/
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Moose135
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:35 pm

I think some people didn't fully read the story linked by the OP:

A senior pilot was asked to resign from SAA earlier this year after it was found that he had flown commercial airplanes for more than 20 years with a fake licence, Mail & Guardian reported on Friday. SAA reportedly discovered that William Chandler's airline transport pilot licence had been forged.


It doesn't look like a simple oversight that wasn't picked up by SAA, it looks like a deliberate action by the pilot. Also from the story:

It also reportedly explained why Chandler opted not to be promoted to the rank of captain in 2005, as he would have had to submit his certification.


And this, from an SAA spokesperson:

"It is an SAA requirement that all pilots obtain an ATPL license within five years of their employment as pilots at SAA. This is linked to Senior First Officer status and forms part of their conditions of employment as regulated in the SAA Pilots Regulating Agreement. Any pilot failing to obtain this license, will have their employment terminated with the airline," said Tlali.


He may have had the required Commercial License to legally operate as a First Officer, and as SAA pointed out, he did receive and pass all required airline training for the position, but he clearly didn't meet the requirements of his employer, and it appears, he may have obtained (one way or another) a fraudulent ATP License to deceive his employer that he did in fact comply with their requirements. One might ask, if he lied about the ATP, what else might he have lied about?
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WPvsMW
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:41 pm

My post about the elements of fraud was about... the elements of fraud. If the FO forged an ATPL, that's satisfies some of the elements of fraud (there also must be damages ... was SAA damaged?), but the article doesn't assert that the FO forged an ATPL, but that "SAA reportedly discovered" the ATPL had been forged. If the FO refused promotions to captain, why would he forge a document he didn't need? To keep his job, of course, if SAA HR demanded that he produce his ATPL... but the article is silent about those critical facts.

I am not defending the FO, but am critiquing poor journalism, and laxity at SAA HR. 30 seconds in the CAA database and they have the answer.... and it took 15 years?
 
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:52 pm

Antarius wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
It is not fraud if the FO did not assert that he had an ATPL. Fraud (outside of securities law) requires a positive action meant to deceive. When did the FO do that? He held an FO job. The blame here is SAA HR, not the FO. Is it fraud to drive your car if you forgot your driver's license? No. It's a violation if caught. That's not fraud.


I'm assuming as part of the employment contract, it would state that an ATPL is required within 5 years.

I do agree that SAA HR is also to blame, but I do not think this can be simply chalked up to negligence on the part of the pilot.


While I'm not all too familiar with South African law, I believe it would simply be a 'breach of contract' if the pilot was contractually obligated to obtain an ATPL during the first 5 years of employment with SAA.

For it to be fraudulent/negligent/innocent misrepresentation, the pilot would have had to have asserted that he had met requirements for the job, that in actuality he did not, before having started the job (entering into the employment contract).

However, I'm sure somebody with a little bit more legal experience can correct me here.

Edit: I originally read a different version of the article that didn't mention the creation of a fake license. That sounds more like criminal fraud. Therefore, SAA can sue under civil law for breach of contract, while the government can prosecute under criminal law for fraudulent misrepresentation.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-47420515
Last edited by Airlinerdude on Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
sandyb123
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:02 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
How the heck did this get past the airline and regulators? I would be surprised if criminal charges don’t result.


On what criminal charge? He has breached SAA rules (although you could argue at tribunal that they were complicit as they didn’t audit or hold up their own standards) but he has not breached any laws or regulations?

Given the position he finds himself, if management are being difficult then I’d resign and file for constructive dismissal. If he looses / SAA counterclaims then either file a personal bankruptcy or run the country (not as crazy as it sounds but he’d need to leave the SADC).

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sandyb123
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:04 pm

sandyb123 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
How the heck did this get past the airline and regulators? I would be surprised if criminal charges don’t result.


On what criminal charge? He has breached SAA rules (although you could argue at tribunal that they were complicit as they didn’t audit or hold up their own standards) but he has not breached any laws or regulations?

Given the position he finds himself in and if management are being difficult then I’d resign and file for constructive dismissal. If he looses / SAA counterclaims then either file a personal bankruptcy or run the country (not as crazy or uncommon as it sounds but he’d need to leave the SADC).

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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:26 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
I am not defending the FO, but am critiquing poor journalism, and laxity at SAA HR. 30 seconds in the CAA database and they have the answer.... and it took 15 years?

At the time he was required (by SAA) to have the ATPL - 1999, five years after his 1994 hiring - was there an easily searchable database that the airline could have searched? He may have submitted a copy of a forged license, and once his personnel records showed he had it, there was no reason to check in future years once a database was available.
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lx2iah
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:31 pm

Could this be why - look at the aviation herald 01mar article
Incident: SAA A346 over Switzerland on Nov 6th 2018, overspeed, dual ADR failure
 
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:39 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
Well, by now he has 20 years experience and he's done a better job than a lot of guys with proper licenses.


Very true; I'd sooner hire him than some newly-qualified kid waving his ATPL around.

SAA should really capitalise on his experience and pay for him to get the paper qualifications. And give him the role of licensing supervisor, he'd be perfect for weeding-out anyone else faking it!
 
Western727
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:45 pm

lx2iah wrote:
Could this be why - look at the aviation herald 01mar article
Incident: SAA A346 over Switzerland on Nov 6th 2018, overspeed, dual ADR failure


That fits, yes, thank you!! http://avherald.com/h?article=4c0504fb&opt=0

It also states the pilot (presumably the FO) was expected to move up from the CPL to ATPL within 5 years of employment, an SAA company policy, and shoots down the melodramatic comments by a couple of folks a few replies up.
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:54 pm

I was under the impression that an airline would assist its flight crews to obtain the necessary licences, such as an ATPL. Is this not the case?
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stl07
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:23 pm

Wait so I can use a commercial (USA) to be a FO in another country? I may get one after all... Or am I misunderstanding this rule
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:26 pm

The fact that he had a forged license satisfied SAA. It fell apart because due to the “incident” the authorities checked the government records and found that his license was fake, which SAA apparently did not do. I do not see this as surprising, although I doubt it could happen in the US now. I have a CDL, and every time I have gotten a truck driving job the employer was required to check my record with the DMV. I expect there is a similar requirement for commercial pilots.

But it was not always so. Read “Fate is the Hunter” by Ernest Gann. It is his memoir about being a pilot for AA and Matson Airlines in the 30s and 40s; at one point he encountered a pilot who had faked his credentials, and he then realized that no person had actually examined his.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
sixtyseven
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:57 pm

SAA suing their employees might be the only way the outfit can turn a profit.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
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zeke
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:34 am

Western727 wrote:

It also states the pilot (presumably the FO) was expected to move up from the CPL to ATPL within 5 years of employment, an SAA company policy, and shoots down the melodramatic comments by a couple of folks a few replies up.


As I mentioned in my previous post, at the time the pilot would have been employed the ATPL licence would not have existed. They used to be called senior commercial pilots licences. If his contract said he had to get his senior commercial within 5 years, and then the changed the name from senior commercial to ATPL, he could never obtain what his contract actually stated.

I used to have senior commercial licences which looked like a passport style document, they were phased out to ATPL in the standard ICAO format.
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ccjohn
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:45 am

It was asked earlier in the thread and I may have missed the answer but didn’t see it.

He had a CPL. How much more work is involved in getting a ATPL
 
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zeke
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:22 am

ccjohn wrote:
It was asked earlier in the thread and I may have missed the answer but didn’t see it.

He had a CPL. How much more work is involved in getting a ATPL


The requirements are different from country to country, for example the FAA has to be by far the easiest to get, you have all the questions and answers published and then is normally a practical ride. All I had to do to get an FAA ATP was a single multiple choice examination, no checkride because of the other licenses and type ratings I held. I got 99% on the paper only after 3 hrs study, it was so easy.

Countries with a British influence were by far the hardest with a series of 10-20 3-4 hour examinations which included written answers like for navigation plotting where we used doppler to get speed and direction over water. When I did those papers they had negative marking, for example if you got a question correct it would be 4-5 points, didn’t answer -1 point, incorrect answer or a guess -3 points. Pass mark was 85%. I had to sit all 14 papers in a single 3 day sitting. The pass rate was very low, around 5%-10%.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
ubeema
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:16 am

Not sure why many posters shoot the messenger (article posted by OP). Nothing is exaggerated in the reporting and they have quotes from SAA.
My mom used to say in French “99 jour pour le voleur, 1 jour pour le patron/propriétaire”. Translate to “99 days for the thief, 1 day for the boss/owner”.

Airline had no choice but show that this behavior is not acceptable although they failed to detect it themselves in due course. Airline need to worry about the rest of the employees who could use this as an excuse to bypass established rules and policies. I work in corporate litigation and helped many fortune 100 companies investigate occupational fraud for over a decade. Fraud is rampant, corporate Legal departments any day are working on multiple cases. However I question the Airline for 1)suing the former pilot, 2) doing so publicly. Legal proceedings will keep them under public scrutiny and could hurt a reputation that is not on solid ground to begin with.
 
nikeherc
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:59 am

One of the parts of any audit is to determine whether company procedures are being followed. This true for regulatory audits as well as internal audits. If the company doesn’t enforce its own rules, does it follow the law? Clearly the chief perpetrator here is the pilot. That does not absolve the airline. I recently had to produce my college diploma after 50 years of employment. The paperwork is so important in the airline industry, you’d think it would be routine to both verify on line and physically.
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acjbbj
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:20 am

Siren wrote:
Now, the airline is demanding he pay back his salary for the many years he was employed and out of compliance with this requirement. It should be interesting to see if they are able to collect - but I doubt it...


Not trying to defend this guy, but can they actually do that?!
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Virtual737
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:26 am

acjbbj wrote:
Siren wrote:
Now, the airline is demanding he pay back his salary for the many years he was employed and out of compliance with this requirement. It should be interesting to see if they are able to collect - but I doubt it...


Not trying to defend this guy, but can they actually do that?!


By their logic, perhaps they should also refund the airfares of all the customers he flew.

He didn't follow his employers requirements and was let go - sounds fair enough. To try and reclaim the salary makes SAA look even more ridiculous than just not having noticed the licensing issue for 20 years.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:53 am

acjbbj wrote:
Siren wrote:
Now, the airline is demanding he pay back his salary for the many years he was employed and out of compliance with this requirement. It should be interesting to see if they are able to collect - but I doubt it...


Not trying to defend this guy, but can they actually do that?!


SAA can try, but would have zero probability in a US court. What happens in ZA... ???
 
seat64k
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Re: SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:30 am

sciing wrote:
I really wonder what kind of site you link here. If you want to put quality down, go on, but do expect any respect! I do not read such BS papers for a good reason and I would appreciate if you could keep this site clean!


News24 is the largest online news site in South Africa. They're the online presence of Naspers, the largest (and probably oldest) print news organisation in the country. Maybe stop attacking people's sources if you don't know anything about them.

Another (reputable) source, mentioned in the news24 report:

https://mg.co.za/article/2019-03-01-00- ... nder-radar
 
ubeema
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SAA pilot fired for faking ATP for over 20 years

Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:14 pm

acjbbj wrote:
Siren wrote:
Now, the airline is demanding he pay back his salary for the many years he was employed and out of compliance with this requirement. It should be interesting to see if they are able to collect - but I doubt it...


Not trying to defend this guy, but can they actually do that?!

They can’t and won’t . Any good lawyer will be able to easily squash this in front of a judge. He flew planes and got compensated for his services. It’s a different story that he did not have the required credentials to keep flying. The company rule is termination if you do not have paperwork. Company controls (if they have any) failed to detect non-compliance, that’s on them.

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