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JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:36 pm
by JAXDan
JAX announced they are taking design bids for a new 6 gate concourse to be built by the end of 2022.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/with-traffic-surging-jacksonville-international-airport-adding-3rd-concourse

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:51 pm
by mikegigs
While I think It's great that they are (finally) rebuilding Concourse B, I fear these gates will be underutilized. If I'm not mistaken, aren't there unused gates in Concourse C currently?

I bet the new concourse will be very nice, if it's anything like the current ones. With the other announced improvements, I really think JAX will be one of the nest small-to-mid-sized airports in the country.

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:14 pm
by WeatherPilot
Seems like a lot construction/building for 6 extra gates.

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:37 pm
by JAXDan
mikegigs wrote:
While I think It's great that they are (finally) rebuilding Concourse B, I fear these gates will be underutilized. If I'm not mistaken, aren't there unused gates in Concourse C currently?


In the morning hours every gate does get used at least once. With the 3-4 year construction time frame and recent record passenger growth I think they just want to be prepared for the future barring another recession.

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:56 pm
by JAXDan
WeatherPilot wrote:
Seems like a lot construction/building for 6 extra gates.


In the old master plan the new concourse would start with 6 gates but eventually could be expanded to 13 gates.

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:13 pm
by MIflyer12
JAXDan wrote:
mikegigs wrote:
While I think It's great that they are (finally) rebuilding Concourse B, I fear these gates will be underutilized. If I'm not mistaken, aren't there unused gates in Concourse C currently?


In the morning hours every gate does get used at least once.


That's not a very high standard of gate utilization, JAXDan. Do they average ten flights a gate between 6AM and 10PM? If so, then JAX might need more gates.

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:42 pm
by JAXDan
MIflyer12 wrote:
JAXDan wrote:
mikegigs wrote:
While I think It's great that they are (finally) rebuilding Concourse B, I fear these gates will be underutilized. If I'm not mistaken, aren't there unused gates in Concourse C currently?


In the morning hours every gate does get used at least once.


That's not a very high standard of gate utilization, JAXDan. Do they average ten flights a gate between 6AM and 10PM? If so, then JAX might need more gates.


I was just letting mikegigs know that all the gates do get used, but I would certainly acknowledge there is not a current need for more gates.

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:19 pm
by Cubsrule
JAXDan wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
JAXDan wrote:

In the morning hours every gate does get used at least once.


That's not a very high standard of gate utilization, JAXDan. Do they average ten flights a gate between 6AM and 10PM? If so, then JAX might need more gates.


I was just letting mikegigs know that all the gates do get used, but I would certainly acknowledge there is not a current need for more gates.


I'm not sure why the standard is 10 flights per day. Even airports that desperately need more gates (my home airport of BNA comes to mind) have quiet periods. Especially at a place like JAX that is essentially 100 percent O&D, gate use will ebb and flow.

About 80 percent of my flying out of JAX is on Monday mornings, and the added security checkpoint throughput will be a nice bonus that is sorely needed even at current passenger levels.

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:53 pm
by jetmatt777
It also depends on the nature of the market. OKC is a similar example, the morning departure rush has close to 30 departures in about an hour and a half, while the rest of the day has about 50 total. This leads to the need for more boarding gates to accommodate that volume.

One might say those flights should be pushed to later time frames, but that doesn’t always work based on the geography of the airport and what connections the airport needs. Some airports tend to be busier at certain hours than others. Small to mid sized cities tend to be rushed in the morning so people can make early connections in the hubs. Whereas a city that can maintain an array of nonstop flights to non hub cities can get away with departures at other times because they bypass a hub.

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:58 pm
by burnsie28
Seems like adding on a few gates to the end of each of the current concourses would be cheaper and easier.

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:16 pm
by lightsaber
JAXDan wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
JAXDan wrote:

In the morning hours every gate does get used at least once.


That's not a very high standard of gate utilization, JAXDan. Do they average ten flights a gate between 6AM and 10PM? If so, then JAX might need more gates.


I was just letting mikegigs know that all the gates do get used, but I would certainly acknowledge there is not a current need for more gates.

The standard of ten flights/day is for high cost areas. Lower standards apply here. However, I'd concur gates are not needed.

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:30 pm
by FlyPNS1
lightsaber wrote:
JAXDan wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

That's not a very high standard of gate utilization, JAXDan. Do they average ten flights a gate between 6AM and 10PM? If so, then JAX might need more gates.


I was just letting mikegigs know that all the gates do get used, but I would certainly acknowledge there is not a current need for more gates.

The standard of ten flights/day is for high cost areas. Lower standards apply here. However, I'd concur gates are not needed.


The standard of 10 flight/day per gate would be tough for an airport like JAX. You'd have routine and constant waits for gates during IRROPs situations.

The reality for an airport like JAX is that you only have departures between about 6am and 8pm. Few flights after 8pm as they have little to connect to by time they reach major hubs. So, realistically, you only have about a 14 hour day. And while 30 minute turns may still be possible for WN (even they rarely do them anymore), for the majors, the turn times can be much longer. Plus, many carriers also have gaps in their gate utilization exactly because they are timing flights to hit arrival banks at hubs which means gates in the outstations aren't optimally used, but it does optimize the hubs.

Bottomline, for an airport like JAX, once you get close to 8 flights per gate, you're really pushing it. I don't know if they're at that level, but that's the reality of gate management for a smaller-medium airport.

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:54 am
by UALifer
Even the most gate constrained airports in the US generally don’t run 10 departures per gate. That’s an absurd standard.

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:01 pm
by osprey12
With the record numbers at JAX the Jacksonville Aviation Authority is doing a lot of planning. Prior to announcing this expansion they awarded a contract for a master plan update in Dec 2018 to cover:

Update ALP to address the following items:
1. Incorporate facility and infrastructure improvements into existing conditions.
2. Airfield geometry to meet current FAA standards and consider operational constraints.
3. Remove the ultimate build out of Runway 8L-26R.
4. Relocated ATCT location planning study to depict proposed location.
5. Update property map.
6. Add future GA FIS location.
7. Add proposed rail corridor location along the northern property line.
8. Aviation activity forecast update, including review of 2010 peaking assumptions.
9. Terminal gate utilization.
10. Obstruction analysis.
11. AGIS airport data collection.
12. Areas for future air cargo, maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO), and general aviation facilities

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:38 pm
by 727LOVER
I hope they put an obs deck on the new concourse....dreaming of course.


Good for JAX.
January was their biggest month ever. Wasn't that NK's first full month? Coincidence?

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:57 pm
by flybaby
Nice, but let’s hope that a recession doesn’t spoil the plans for concourse C like it did last time.

It took JAX eleven years to work its way to surpassing the passenger numbers it hit back in 2007.

The one thing it does have going for it is that the metro area now has more than 15% greater population than it had a decade before.

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:28 pm
by flybaby
727LOVER wrote:
...
January was their biggest month ever. Wasn't that NK's first full month? Coincidence?


Well, you might be mixing cause and effect a bit here.

JAX was already growing 15%+ Y/o/Y per month before Dec ‘18. Then it bumped up 17%+ Y/o/Y. Most likely seeing the already realized growth potential is what attracted NK, rather than NK itself being the primary driver of growth.

I suspect much of JAX’s growth potential comes from capturing area passengers otherwise being siphoned off by MCO and SFB due to cheaper and/or more direct flights.

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:35 pm
by AAflyguy
Good for JAX!! There are no minimum times per day use requirements for an to expansion to be warranted. There are myriad reasons why an airport may need additional gate capacity, but it is generally based on Peak Day / Peak Hour Capacity. If at the busiest time there is greater demand than there is capacity, and the forecast is for that demand to grow further, the justification exists to expand. Further, permanent terminal expansions can’t be planned, built, and opened in a year, nor is it typically easy or feasible to just add a gate here & there. This is planning for what JAX obviously has determined is a demonstrated need by whatever its specific parameters are. Due to the generally long planning/design/construction horizon, it is difficult to target an expansion to occur only when there is no economic downturn. However, it tends to be more economomical to build during a downturn because generally construction costs are more favorable.

AAflyguy

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:42 pm
by JAXDan
727LOVER wrote:
I hope they put an obs deck on the new concourse....dreaming of course.


I haven’t seen it in person but JAX recently tweeted there is a new pre security observation deck.
https://twitter.com/jaxairport/status/1100173352998715393?s=21

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:53 pm
by jplatts
UALifer wrote:
Even the most gate constrained airports in the US generally don’t run 10 departures per gate. That’s an absurd standard.


There are actually a few U.S. airports such as AUS, DAL, LAX, and SJC where WN operates more than 10 departures per gate.

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:39 pm
by Cubsrule
jplatts wrote:
UALifer wrote:
Even the most gate constrained airports in the US generally don’t run 10 departures per gate. That’s an absurd standard.


There are actually a few U.S. airports such as AUS, DAL, LAX, and SJC where WN operates more than 10 departures per gate.


I’m not sure how much time you have spent in some of those places, but above about 9/day, things start to go south. AUS in particular is a mess despite a lot of practice operating in tight quarters.

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:25 pm
by 727LOVER
JAXDan wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
I hope they put an obs deck on the new concourse....dreaming of course.


I haven’t seen it in person but JAX recently tweeted there is a new pre security observation deck.
https://twitter.com/jaxairport/status/1100173352998715393?s=21


Good to know, thanx....I looked at the terminal mapm still trying to figure out the view.

Of course, nothing beats the old one :bouncy:


Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:50 pm
by osprey12
The view is to the south with the main terminal baggage area on the left, Concourse C on the right, and the UPS cargo ramp & runway 14/32 in the center. The gallery should be located on the left side just before TSA when walking from the main entrance.

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:16 am
by AAtakeMeAway
The best news in that article is that the sinks and counter tops in the bathrooms are being replaced

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:45 am
by ATLFlyer323
I remember when I volunteered at the airport back in 09 they had a big display of the master plan that showed a sky tram taking people out to concourse B. I always thought it looked a little expensive for such a short walk. I have fond memories of JAX so Im glad to see the airport expanding and the 3rd concourse finally getting built!

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:47 am
by FF630
JAX is my home airport. I remember when the airport opened at its present location in 1967 when I was 15, with 3 concources, A,B & C each with 7 gates. My first flight was from the previous airport imason Field on Main street, in a Delta DC-7 when I was 10 or so.

When I travel on an early morning flight it is gate crunch time depending on the day of the week since Spirit, Frontier and Allegiant do not run fights seven days a week. Gate crunch has only occurred in the past year since all three low cost airlines now seve JAX.
JAX probably needs on 2 or 3 more gates. Adding them to the end of the existing concourses would take 4 gates out during construction, therefore not practical. I am puzzled why the plan is relocating security, certainly needs a little expansion, both the TSA precheck and regular lines are a little long at times.

I notice JAX gets good ratings from users, it is a very nice medium size airport.

Just returned from LAX, hope Delta brings back the nonstop now that they are acquiring the A200's, although I understand they do not plan to use for flights over 1,500 miles. BTW, LAX is miserable as ever, be better when the hotel and rental car buses are sent to a transportation hub.

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:48 am
by FF630
JAX is my home airport. I remember when the airport opened at its present location in 1967 when I was 15, with 3 concources, A,B & C each with 7 gates. My first flight was from the previous airport imason Field on Main street, in a Delta DC-7 when I was 10 or so.

When I travel on an early morning flight it is gate crunch time depending on the day of the week since Spirit, Frontier and Allegiant do not run fights seven days a week. Gate crunch has only occurred in the past year since all three low cost airlines now seve JAX.
JAX probably needs on 2 or 3 more gates. Adding them to the end of the existing concourses would take 4 gates out during construction, therefore not practical. I am puzzled why the plan is relocating security, certainly needs a little expansion, both the TSA precheck and regular lines are a little long at times.

I notice JAX gets good ratings from users, it is a very nice medium size airport.

Just returned from LAX, hope Delta brings back the nonstop now that they are acquiring the A200's, although I understand they do not plan to use for flights over 1,500 miles. BTW, LAX is miserable as ever, be better when the hotel and rental car buses are sent to a transportation hub.

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:09 am
by flybaby
FF630 wrote:
....
I am puzzled why the plan is relocating security, certainly needs a little expansion, both the TSA precheck and regular lines are a little long at times.
...


They are probably trying to future proof any possible expansion to the security screening area, even if they don’t need a whole lot more room at the moment. The current area looks like it’s pretty much hemmed in on all sides.

Re: JAX announces plans for new concourse

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:50 pm
by osprey12
FF630 wrote:
JAX probably needs on 2 or 3 more gates. Adding them to the end of the existing concourses would take 4 gates out during construction, therefore not practical. I am puzzled why the plan is relocating security, certainly needs a little expansion, both the TSA precheck and regular lines are a little long at times.


I agree that extending A and C right now would be impractical because of the gates you lose and the required ramp expansion. I don’t think they will need to expand the concrete much past where the old terminal was. The 2010 master plan has Concourse B followed by extending A and C. The old plan also discusses how many scanners they would need to add and the space required for different growth levels, so that isn’t surprising. It will be interesting to see what changes when the master plan update is complete.