factsonly
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VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:31 pm

Virgin Atlantic, Delta, Air France and KLM announce an extensive TATL codeshare as part of their new Joint Venture.

March 4th, 2019 - Press Release:

Virgin Atlantic, Air France and KLM have today announced their first codeshare agreement – creating new transatlantic travel options to and from North America, and providing more opportunities to earn frequent flyer miles.

The partnership makes it easier for customers to build their ideal trip across the Atlantic by combining flights operated by Air France, KLM, Virgin Atlantic and Delta. Customers booking on a codeshare benefit from seamless connections, and a single booking reference. Customers travelling on codeshare flights will also be able to earn miles, and redeem them via their own airline loyalty scheme.

Virgin Atlantic brings the UK’s Regions closer to North America

Virgin Atlantic customers can now book a wide range of additional flights at virginatlantic.com – opening up 58 new routes from 18 UK airports across the Atlantic with Air France and KLM. Examples of new route options from the UK include Edinburgh – Toronto via Amsterdam, and London Heathrow - Chicago via Paris.

Air France and KLM increase flight options across the Atlantic

Air France and KLM customers can now access 24 new routes to North America on flights operated by Virgin Atlantic and Delta departing the UK including connections via London Heathrow or Manchester. Customers can benefit from additional frequencies to destinations such as Miami from Amsterdam via London Heathrow alongside increased options to fly between Paris and New York-JFK via Manchester.

More options to fly Delta

Delta is building on its successful partnerships with Air France, KLM and Virgin Atlantic, giving customers from these airlines more opportunity to fly on Delta’s transatlantic services. Virgin customers travelling between the United Kingdom and the US now have the choice to connect onto all of Delta’s flights over Amsterdam and Paris. Meanwhile Air France and KLM customers have additional options to fly either nonstop or via the UK on all Delta services to the US.

Virgin Atlantic, Delta and Air France–KLM are set to form an expanded joint venture later in 2019. Subject to final clearance from regulators, the airlines will be founding members of a $13bn transatlantic partnership for customers between the UK, Europe and North America, offering over 300 daily transatlantic flights, 108 non-stop routes, and over 340 destinations.

1. The combined codeshare network serves 18 airports in the U.K. including: Aberdeen, Belfast, Belfast City, Birmingham, Bristol, Cardiff, Durham, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Humberside, Inverness, Leeds-Bradford, London-City, London-Gatwick, London-Heathrow, Manchester, Newcastle and Norwich.

NEW: VS code on Air France:
ABZ - CDG
BHX - CDG
EDI - CDG
LHR - CDG
MAN - CDG
NCL - CDG

ATL - CDG
CUN - CDG
BOS - CDG
MEX - CDG
DFW - CDG
YUL - CDG
DTW - CDG
YVR - CDG
IAD - CDG
YYZ - CDG
IAH - CDG
JFK - CDG
LAX - CDG
MIA - CDG
MSP - CDG
ORD - CDG
SEA - CDG
SFO - CDG

NEW: VS code on KLM:
ABZ - AMS
BHD - AMS
BHX - AMS
BRS - AMS
CWL - AMS
EDI - AMS
HUY - AMS
GLA - AMS
INV - AMS
LBA - AMS
LCY - AMS
LHR - AMS
MAN - AMS
MME - AMS
NCL - AMS
NWI - AMS

ATL - AMS
BOS - AMS
IAD - AMS
IAH - AMS
JFK - AMS
LAS - AMS
LAX - AMS
MIA - AMS
MSP - AMS
ORD - AMS
SFO - AMS
SLC - AMS
MEX - AMS
YEG - AMS
YUL - AMS
YVR - AMS
YYC - AMS
YYZ - AMS

NEW: VS code on Delta Airlines:
ATL - AMS
BOS - AMS
DTW - AMS
JFK - AMS
LAX - AMS
MCO - AMS
MSP - AMS
PDX - AMS
SEA - AMS
SLC - AMS
TPA - AMS
ATL - CDG
BOS - CDG
CVG - CDG
DTW - CDG
IND - CDG
JFK - CDG
LAX - CDG
MSP - CDG
RDU - CDG
SEA - CDG
SLC - CDG

NEW: AF & KL code on VS:
BFS - MCO
GLA - MCO
LGW - MCO
LHR - ATL
LHR - BOS
LHR - EWR
LHR - IAD
LHR - JFK
LHR - LAS
LHR - LAX
LHR - MIA
LHR - SEA
LHR - SFO
MAN - ATL
MAN - BOS
MAN - JFK
MAN - LAS
MAN - LAX
MAN - MCO

NEW: AF & KL code on Delta Airlines
EDI - JFK
EDI - BOS
GLA - JFK
LHR - PDX
LHR - SLC

A significant strategic move for Virgin Atlantic and its new JV partners.

https://www.airfranceklm.com/en/virgin- ... artnership
Last edited by factsonly on Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ANA787
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:36 pm

Will AF and KL codes also be added to DL operated LHR-USA flights?
Last edited by ANA787 on Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:39 pm

This will impact BA and OneWorld more than *A, given no *A partner in the UK.
 
RJNUT
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:44 pm

multitude of opportunities to take complex TATL trips and never step foot on VS metal!
 
klm617
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:52 pm

Time to see DTW-MAN opened up on either DL or VS
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:30 pm

AZ is the glaring omission from this JV.
 
winginit
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:48 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
AZ is the glaring omission from this JV.


A relevant talking point to be sure. I have to imagine AZ was excluded from this 'Blue Skies' JV filing because at the time of filing there was a very real possibility that one endgame for AZ would be the carrier being owned by either EY or some combination of LH and other carriers with only competitive associations to DL, VS, AF, and KL.

With the DL bid now on the table I'd guess that if that bid were to come to fruition we'd see a re-application that ushers in AZ to the agreement.

Worth pointing out that this Blue Skies deal has only been approved by EU authorities and we don't yet have US DOT approval.

klm617 wrote:
Time to see DTW-MAN opened up on either DL or VS


Keep dreaming buddy! Maybe if you post it enough a network planner will see it!
 
WPvsMW
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:02 am

Current summary from USDOT. Search on:
170104allimmunizedallianceswithpending1118.docx

So... AZ is immunized in the TATL JV, but excluded from the new codeshare. Change of ownership of AZ that DL doesn't like would mean (1) ST members drop AZ from JV, or (2) USDOT reconsiders based on new ownership of of AZ. Easy to guess DL's reaction.
 
Flanker7
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:37 am

klm617 wrote:
Time to see DTW-MAN opened up on either DL or VS


They did, via AMS :banghead:
Flying blue only if possible
 
YYZORD
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:08 am

I could later see WS being added to their JV, it would be nice for VS to come back to YYZ and YVR
 
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SEAxSANxBOS
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:09 am

Yes and would love to see WS and VS join the SkyTeam officially.
Does not reflect the views of Delta Air Lines

Favorite Airports: SEA, SAN, BOS, MSP, IND, CVG
 
ScrantonUSC
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:28 am

I see large benefits for the airlines, but what is the real benefit for the consumer than what we had before? My perspective is a Delta ff.
 
klm617
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:48 am

Flanker7 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Time to see DTW-MAN opened up on either DL or VS


They did, via AMS :banghead:


Why would I fly an hour backwards to get from MAN to DTW plus make a double connect if I want to get to MSN, GRR, IND, CLE, CMH, STL and many more cities in the upper Midwest.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:09 pm

ScrantonUSC wrote:
I see large benefits for the airlines, but what is the real benefit for the consumer than what we had before? My perspective is a Delta ff.


It offers more benefits if you're in VS FC as it opens up lots more earning opportunities going TATL than what was on offer before with just VS or DL, particularly if you're connecting onto AF or KL via CDG/AMS from the UK regions.

Reports elsewhere are indicating that for some of the VS-operated flights at least there are some big savings to be had when booked via AF. I appreciate that's not always the case and could be a small number of seats available, but for those who like to shop around for the best price the potential to get cheaper fares for a particular flight (and direct for that matter) has increased.
 
jumbojet
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:48 pm

i'll bet you dollars to donuts that this is where B6 is getting their LHR slot(s) from. DOT probably told DL/VS/ etc. that if you want 'A', you have to give up 'B'.
 
evank516
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:15 pm

SEAxSANxBOS wrote:
Yes and would love to see WS and VS join the SkyTeam officially.


I can't imagine this is too far off.

klm617 wrote:
Flanker7 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Time to see DTW-MAN opened up on either DL or VS


They did, via AMS :banghead:


Why would I fly an hour backwards to get from MAN to DTW plus make a double connect if I want to get to MSN, GRR, IND, CLE, CMH, STL and many more cities in the upper Midwest.


I hear the PDEW from MAN-MSN/GRR/IND/CLE/CMH/STL is like 1000 :roll:
 
jomur
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:44 pm

jumbojet wrote:
i'll bet you dollars to donuts that this is where B6 is getting their LHR slot(s) from. DOT probably told DL/VS/ etc. that if you want 'A', you have to give up 'B'.



Can the DOT actually tell LHR who to give slots to? Or is a more a case of if you want DOT approval you have to sell some slots, in which case they should be available for any airline to buy at market rates....
 
AndyEastMids
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:05 pm

With Virgin codes going on some AF / KL services from the UK regions to AMS and CDG, it doesn't look so good for some of the Flybe services that have been in competition. I can't see the VS / KL / AF partnership having a VS code on KL / AF services and operating its own services too. Consolidation of routes such as BHX-CDG and BHX-AMS onto AF / KL, releasing a few AMS / CDG slots currently allocated to BE could be the result.
 
Jetty
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:07 pm

AndyEastMids wrote:
With Virgin codes going on some AF / KL services from the UK regions to AMS and CDG, it doesn't look so good for some of the Flybe services that have been in competition. I can't see the VS / KL / AF partnership having a VS code on KL / AF services and operating its own services too. Consolidation of routes such as BHX-CDG and BHX-AMS onto AF / KL, releasing a few AMS / CDG slots currently allocated to BE could be the result.

Unlikely result as it would mean giving up slots at slot-restricted AMS, where slots aren't transferable as easy as at LHR i.e. Conditions apply such as being part of the same concern or at least X years of codeshare.
 
YellowJ
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:22 pm

jumbojet wrote:
i'll bet you dollars to donuts that this is where B6 is getting their LHR slot(s) from. DOT probably told DL/VS/ etc. that if you want 'A', you have to give up 'B'.


DOT has zero say on foreign slots. If B6 wants into LHR, they will have to take out their bank book like every other airline before them.
 
klakzky123
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:40 pm

YellowJ wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
i'll bet you dollars to donuts that this is where B6 is getting their LHR slot(s) from. DOT probably told DL/VS/ etc. that if you want 'A', you have to give up 'B'.


DOT has zero say on foreign slots. If B6 wants into LHR, they will have to take out their bank book like every other airline before them.


DOT can force airlines to divest slots as part of an approval process. Its been done many times. The most recent example is the Aeromexico-Delta JV where DOT forced both carriers to divest slots at MEX. DL ended up with LHR slots at Miami and Boston as a result of the DOT ordering AA to divest slots when the BA/AA JV was approved.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:48 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
YellowJ wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
i'll bet you dollars to donuts that this is where B6 is getting their LHR slot(s) from. DOT probably told DL/VS/ etc. that if you want 'A', you have to give up 'B'.


DOT has zero say on foreign slots. If B6 wants into LHR, they will have to take out their bank book like every other airline before them.


DOT can force airlines to divest slots as part of an approval process. Its been done many times. The most recent example is the Aeromexico-Delta JV where DOT forced both carriers to divest slots at MEX. DL ended up with LHR slots at Miami and Boston as a result of the DOT ordering AA to divest slots when the BA/AA JV was approved.


It's the Dept of Justice that reviews and approves air carrier mergers and JVs, not the DOT. That's the way it's been for 20 years. An act of Congress took merger approval away from the DOT. The DOJ can reach a settlement agreement that is conditional upon slot transfer.
 
klakzky123
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:58 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:
YellowJ wrote:

DOT has zero say on foreign slots. If B6 wants into LHR, they will have to take out their bank book like every other airline before them.


DOT can force airlines to divest slots as part of an approval process. Its been done many times. The most recent example is the Aeromexico-Delta JV where DOT forced both carriers to divest slots at MEX. DL ended up with LHR slots at Miami and Boston as a result of the DOT ordering AA to divest slots when the BA/AA JV was approved.


It's the Dept of Justice that reviews and approves air carrier mergers and JVs, not the DOT. That's the way it's been for 20 years. An act of Congress took merger approval away from the DOT. The DOJ can reach a settlement agreement that is conditional upon slot transfer.


I'm aware of the fact that DOJ has the final say on mergers but my previous understanding was that DOT had the final say on ATI and joint ventures. And consequently, DOT had the authority to have the final say on conditions like slot divestment as it relates to a DOT approval of an ATI request and joint venture.

But as you point out my understanding could be really out of date. I would point out that JV approval articles tend to reference DOT rather than DOJ so its a bit confusing to a layperson.
 
winginit
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:04 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
YellowJ wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
i'll bet you dollars to donuts that this is where B6 is getting their LHR slot(s) from. DOT probably told DL/VS/ etc. that if you want 'A', you have to give up 'B'.


DOT has zero say on foreign slots. If B6 wants into LHR, they will have to take out their bank book like every other airline before them.


DL ended up with LHR slots at Miami and Boston as a result of the DOT ordering AA to divest slots when the BA/AA JV was approved.


But DL had to purchase those slots as they were divested from AA/BA. Thus, bringing the example back to B6, regulatory authorities could demand that DL/VS/etc. divest LHR slots, but they couldn't then give them to B6 - they'd go on the market and B6 would have to purchase them.
 
klakzky123
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:10 pm

winginit wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:
YellowJ wrote:

DOT has zero say on foreign slots. If B6 wants into LHR, they will have to take out their bank book like every other airline before them.


DL ended up with LHR slots at Miami and Boston as a result of the DOT ordering AA to divest slots when the BA/AA JV was approved.


But DL had to purchase those slots as they were divested from AA/BA. Thus, bringing the example back to B6, regulatory authorities could demand that DL/VS/etc. divest LHR slots, but they couldn't then give them to B6 - they'd go on the market and B6 would have to purchase them.


I believe that condition was allowed later. The original proposal was for AA to flat out divest slots as part of the JV. Using the DL-AM example, I'm not sure the MEX slots were sold. I think DL and AM had to give those up and DOT then allocated them.
 
winginit
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:14 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
winginit wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:

DL ended up with LHR slots at Miami and Boston as a result of the DOT ordering AA to divest slots when the BA/AA JV was approved.


But DL had to purchase those slots as they were divested from AA/BA. Thus, bringing the example back to B6, regulatory authorities could demand that DL/VS/etc. divest LHR slots, but they couldn't then give them to B6 - they'd go on the market and B6 would have to purchase them.


I believe that condition was allowed later. The original proposal was for AA to flat out divest slots as part of the JV. Using the DL-AM example, I'm not sure the MEX slots were sold. I think DL and AM had to give those up and DOT then allocated them.


I think we have that right. Unlike LHR, where slots are bought and sold on the open market, MEX slots are (or at least were) allocated by the DOT
 
SCQ83
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:20 pm

It is the only way for Virgin (and I would add Air Europa) to survive. Neither LHR nor MAD need a second legacy carrier other than IAG.
 
klakzky123
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:40 pm

winginit wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:
winginit wrote:

But DL had to purchase those slots as they were divested from AA/BA. Thus, bringing the example back to B6, regulatory authorities could demand that DL/VS/etc. divest LHR slots, but they couldn't then give them to B6 - they'd go on the market and B6 would have to purchase them.


I believe that condition was allowed later. The original proposal was for AA to flat out divest slots as part of the JV. Using the DL-AM example, I'm not sure the MEX slots were sold. I think DL and AM had to give those up and DOT then allocated them.


I think we have that right. Unlike LHR, where slots are bought and sold on the open market, MEX slots are (or at least were) allocated by the DOT


I'm pretty sure the original tentative approval had AA flat out surrendering its slots rather than selling them. In fact their law firm mentions this in their press release. https://m.jonesday.com/american-airline ... 7-26-2010/

And regardless of whether an airline can buy or sell LHR slots in the open market, that does not eliminate the ability of regulators to require slots divestments as a condition of an approval. In fact, DL ended up with an LHR slot from the AA-US merger because EU regulators wanted to ensure some competition on PHL-LHR. So the EU opened up that slot to a competitor and Delta ended up being the carrier chosen to operate the route. And as far as I can tell, I don't think DL had to pay for that slot. Instead, DL had to commit to serving the route for a period of time before they gained full ownership of the slot.
 
winginit
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:47 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
And regardless of whether an airline can buy or sell LHR slots in the open market, that does not eliminate the ability of regulators to require slots divestments as a condition of an approval. In fact, DL ended up with an LHR slot from the AA-US merger because EU regulators wanted to ensure some competition on PHL-LHR. So the EU opened up that slot to a competitor and Delta ended up being the carrier chosen to operate the route. And as far as I can tell, I don't think DL had to pay for that slot. Instead, DL had to commit to serving the route for a period of time before they gained full ownership of the slot.


Yes of course, but those were EU regulators who are able to allocate EU slots. The DOT is not an EU regulator and thus to my knowledge cannot say "DL/VS you have to divest LHR slots and they have to go to B6 for free". Maybe I have a misunderstanding of that.

In the link you referenced there, the decisions of the US and EU regulators were coordinated and thus slots could be allocated:

The coordinated decisions by U.S. and EU authorities will require the carriers to make several landing and takeoff slots available to competitors at London's Heathrow Airport. In a departure from precedent, however, regulators will allow the slots to be leased for compensation, rather than divested outright.

That's not the case here as EU regulators have already approved this enhanced tie-up seemingly without condition.
Last edited by winginit on Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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OA412
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:49 pm

Flanker7 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Time to see DTW-MAN opened up on either DL or VS


They did, via AMS :banghead:

Indeed. I can't imagine all that many people are begging for DTW-MAN. Outside NYC and Florida, MAN has been a tough nut to crack for US airlines. Both AA and DL have struggled to make JFK-MAN work, and that's in spite of AAs JV with BA. Other than PHL-MAN and ATL-MAN, the US airlines have struggled to support MAN flying outside NYC, and even then, ATL was transferred to VS. I can't imagine DTW would be any different.
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3AWM
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:05 pm

Jetty wrote:
AndyEastMids wrote:
With Virgin codes going on some AF / KL services from the UK regions to AMS and CDG, it doesn't look so good for some of the Flybe services that have been in competition. I can't see the VS / KL / AF partnership having a VS code on KL / AF services and operating its own services too. Consolidation of routes such as BHX-CDG and BHX-AMS onto AF / KL, releasing a few AMS / CDG slots currently allocated to BE could be the result.

Unlikely result as it would mean giving up slots at slot-restricted AMS, where slots aren't transferable as easy as at LHR i.e. Conditions apply such as being part of the same concern or at least X years of codeshare.


Some consolidation will surely happen.

I suspect the flybe/connect routes will get an AF/KLM codeshare and the will continue to use their porfolio of AMS slots to provide feed from UK airports to AMS. This will mean KLM can use their slots elsewhere.

No reason for VS to give up slots at LHR regardless of this deal as unlike BA they don't have such a big share to give them a near monopoly.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:28 pm

I guess VS should join SkyTeam. Isn't there a restriction on how a SkyTeam member can only have limited connections with other airlines hence CZ leaving the alliance?
 
3AWM
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:05 pm

Other than making it look neat what has VS or it's investor/ partners DL/AF/KLM got to gain from VS joining Skyteam?
I can't see where it would sell them more tickets or provide them with much in the way of distribution outside of the existing partners.

They might have to give up some of their existing partners though and they already have a decent selection of codeshares at most of the destinations they serve.

They would gain more from joining Star Alliance, they would probably also gain more from joining Oneworld if that were possible.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:22 pm

ST members control VS. VS will not join any alliance other than ST. The issue is whether the controlling members want VS to join ST.
 
Cunard
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:14 pm

3AWM wrote:
Other than making it look neat what has VS or it's investor/ partners DL/AF/KLM got to gain from VS joining Skyteam?
I can't see where it would sell them more tickets or provide them with much in the way of distribution outside of the existing partners.

They might have to give up some of their existing partners though and they already have a decent selection of codeshares at most of the destinations they serve.

They would gain more from joining Star Alliance, they would probably also gain more from joining Oneworld if that were possible.


Regarding your last paragraph........do you honestly think that VS would ever join Oneworld......I don't think so!

And what exactly would VS gain from joining Star Alliance?

Not that I'm suggesting that VS joined any particular alliance but if they were to join up with one of the three alliances the most obvious one would be Skyteam.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
winginit
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Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:30 pm

3AWM wrote:
Other than making it look neat what has VS or it's investor/ partners DL/AF/KLM got to gain from VS joining Skyteam?
I can't see where it would sell them more tickets or provide them with much in the way of distribution outside of the existing partners.

They might have to give up some of their existing partners though and they already have a decent selection of codeshares at most of the destinations they serve.

They would gain more from joining Star Alliance, they would probably also gain more from joining Oneworld if that were possible.


The very nature of this 'Blue Skies' agreement (VS in, AZ out) is just another nail in the alliance model coffin. Large, powerful carriers are linking arms with their favorite partners regardless of their alliance standing and using joint ventures and equity stakes to bring us into the next chapter of airline partnerships. There's no business case for VS to join any alliance, and if there was they would have already done so.
 
3AWM
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:01 pm

Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:50 pm

Cunard wrote:
3AWM wrote:
Other than making it look neat what has VS or it's investor/ partners DL/AF/KLM got to gain from VS joining Skyteam?
I can't see where it would sell them more tickets or provide them with much in the way of distribution outside of the existing partners.

They might have to give up some of their existing partners though and they already have a decent selection of codeshares at most of the destinations they serve.

They would gain more from joining Star Alliance, they would probably also gain more from joining Oneworld if that were possible.


Regarding your last paragraph........do you honestly think that VS would ever join Oneworld......I don't think so!

And what exactly would VS gain from joining Star Alliance?

Not that I'm suggesting that VS joined any particular alliance but if they were to join up with one of the three alliances the most obvious one would be Skyteam.


Well I would say the first paragraph is the most important - what does any of the interested parties get out of joining Skyteam other than the aesthic appeal of seeing it in the same alliance as it's owners?

Re: Star Alliance I don't really think VS would join but I think they would be a better fit.

If you look at their existing partners : https://www.virginatlantic.com/gb/en/fl ... lines.html

They already have partnerships with 6 Star Alliance airlines vs 3 Skyteam so at least existing members must see them bringing something to the table.

In reality - why join either when you can cherry pick the partnerships you want from both and non affiliated airlines like Jet - which is basically how it is right now.
 
carljanderson
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:29 pm

Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:01 am

jumbojet wrote:
i'll bet you dollars to donuts that this is where B6 is getting their LHR slot(s) from. DOT probably told DL/VS/ etc. that if you want 'A', you have to give up 'B'.


Has there been an order issued yet? Didn't see anything on regualtions.gov in the docket. It should be close, as everything from the airlines should have been submitted about 2 weeks ago.
 
factsonly
Topic Author
Posts: 2693
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:13 am

Now bookable, examples:

- Wed 13 Mar 2019 ABZ - AMS Depart: 06:00 - Arrive: 08:40 VS6947 Boeing 737-700 operated by KLM
- Wed 13 Mar 2019 AMS - PDX Depart: 09:50 - Arrive: 12:29 VS3940 Boeing 767-300 operated by DELTA

- Wed 13 Mar 2019 SLC - AMS Depart: 14:45 - Arrive: 07:50 VS3935 Boeing 767-300 operated by DELTA
- Wed 14 Mar 2019 AMS - BHD Depart 12.10 - Arrive: 12:50 VS6955 Embraer 175 operated by KLM
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 380
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:57 am

No Dublin

And what about all the tropical VS destinations
 
factsonly
Topic Author
Posts: 2693
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:08 pm

Amsterdam wrote:
No Dublin


The VS/DL/AF/KL codeshare agreement is very much TATL focussed, so only UK/Fr/NL <-> USA/Canada/Mexico
As VS does not operate to the Republic of Ireland, the airline has no significant Frequent Flyer customer base there and it makes no sense to codeshare DUB-AMS/CDG-TATL.

Northern Ireland on the other hand is included, as VS operates B747s from BFS to Orlando and this flight now codeshares with AF/KL/DL.

Amsterdam wrote:

And what about all the tropical VS destinations



Well ....... AMS and CDG-BGI are overnight connections via Manchester:

- AMS Depart: 21:45 - MAN Arrive: 22:00 VS7079 Boeing 737-700 - Layover time 14h 25m - you change planes in Manchester
- MAN Depart: 12:25 - BGI Arrive: 17:05 VS77 Boeing 747-400

- CDG Depart: 20:50 - MAN Arrive: 21:20 VS8369 Embraer 195 and Legacy 1000 - Layover time 15h 5m - you change planes in Manchester
- MAN Depart: 12:25 - BGI Arrive: 17:05 VS77 Boeing 747-400

The other VS tropical destinations are operated from LGW, an airport not served by AF/KL. So no connections from mainland Europe on VS code.
 
DobboDobbo
Posts: 853
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: VS, AF, DL, KL announce extensive codeshare

Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:29 am

factsonly wrote:

Amsterdam wrote:

And what about all the tropical VS destinations



Well ....... AMS and CDG-BGI are overnight connections via Manchester:

- AMS Depart: 21:45 - MAN Arrive: 22:00 VS7079 Boeing 737-700 - Layover time 14h 25m - you change planes in Manchester
- MAN Depart: 12:25 - BGI Arrive: 17:05 VS77 Boeing 747-400

- CDG Depart: 20:50 - MAN Arrive: 21:20 VS8369 Embraer 195 and Legacy 1000 - Layover time 15h 5m - you change planes in Manchester
- MAN Depart: 12:25 - BGI Arrive: 17:05 VS77 Boeing 747-400

The other VS tropical destinations are operated from LGW, an airport not served by AF/KL. So no connections from mainland Europe on VS code.


Very poor connection times at MAN. I’d assume one of the early morning services would enable sufficient time to transfer from AF/KL (currently at T3) to VS at T2. If not (and in any event) I’d hope to see AF/KL above to T2 at MAN before too long to take advantage of the improved connection facilities there.

Makes you wonder what role MAN can play in the JV. It will likely depend on what Connect Airways becomes, but there should be scope for further connecting opportunities when the updated route network beds down.

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