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OA940
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Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:54 pm

JQ321 wrote:
OA940 wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:

Despite NZ aircraft on routes to the USA having larger Premium classes, the airline is still very leisure and cargo focused in its business model. NZ’s business model is significantly different from QF’s, and particularly on PER-LHR which focuses on hauling fewer premiere pax and bags.

The current NZ 789 cannot make EWR/JFK-AKL with a profitable and sustainable load for NZ. This is the reason the airline is looking for a new aircraft (potentially an extended range 789) for routes to/from AKL including NYC, ORD, IAH, GRU and YVR.


Wait, why wouldn't it be able to do YVR? I mean AC flies the quite longer YVR-BNE with the 789, and I think are starting AKL with the 788. The only reason I can see for them not being able to start YVR is because of demand (or lack thereof). I can understand why they'd like to have a higher-MTOW 789 for ORD and IAH though.

Actually Brisbane is with a 788 and Melbourne is with 789


Ah, I thought BNE was with a 789, which was surprising. This definitely makes more sense
A350/CSeries = bae
 
Qantas737
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Re: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:55 pm

OA940 wrote:
JQ321 wrote:
OA940 wrote:

Wait, why wouldn't it be able to do YVR? I mean AC flies the quite longer YVR-BNE with the 789, and I think are starting AKL with the 788. The only reason I can see for them not being able to start YVR is because of demand (or lack thereof). I can understand why they'd like to have a higher-MTOW 789 for ORD and IAH though.

Actually Brisbane is with a 788 and Melbourne is with 789


Ah, I thought BNE was with a 789, which was surprising. This definitely makes more sense


Brisbane is typically operated by a 788 but also generally sees a 789 once a week. Mostly Sundays from what I can determine and likely only during peak periods.
 
morrisond
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:51 pm

It sounds like the A350 is very efficient from an operating standpoint. I would have to guess why Boeing is winning the orders race on 787 vs 350 comes mainly down to purchase price.

I don't have any data - but I would have to guess Boeing is winning the orders race largely down to the fact that they can price there birds a lot better due to a production cost advantage and the 787 is in it's various versions is good enough in terms of Capability to cover 98-99% of missions.

The A350 should do better as 77W's age out - but by then 787 should get more capable (with new engines, weight loss, aero clean up, MTOW growth) as well and the 350 risks being too capable.
 
Eyad89
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:21 pm

morrisond wrote:
It sounds like the A350 is very efficient from an operating standpoint. I would have to guess why Boeing is winning the orders race on 787 vs 350 comes mainly down to purchase price.

I don't have any data - but I would have to guess Boeing is winning the orders race largely down to the fact that they can price there birds a lot better due to a production cost advantage and the 787 is in it's various versions is good enough in terms of Capability to cover 98-99% of missions.

The A350 should do better as 77W's age out - but by then 787 should get more capable (with new engines, weight loss, aero clean up, MTOW growth) as well and the 350 risks being too capable.


Since we are talking about A359 vs 789:

A359: 724 orders
789: 804 orders

If you consider that A359 was launched 2 years after 789, and if you consider that 789 is the smaller plane, I wouldn’t say that 789 is winnig the order race at all. They are in the same league.
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:37 pm

morrisond wrote:
It sounds like the A350 is very efficient from an operating standpoint. I would have to guess why Boeing is winning the orders race on 787 vs 350 comes mainly down to purchase price.

I don't have any data - but I would have to guess Boeing is winning the orders race largely down to the fact that they can price there birds a lot better due to a production cost advantage and the 787 is in it's various versions is good enough in terms of Capability to cover 98-99% of missions.

The A350 should do better as 77W's age out - but by then 787 should get more capable (with new engines, weight loss, aero clean up, MTOW growth) as well and the 350 risks being too capable.



They have slightly different missions. The 787 is superior to the 350 on some routes (not a purchase price issue) and likewise, the 350 is superior to the 787 on some missions. It's that simple. The 350 isn't always the better choice -- It has its pitfalls as well.
Whatever
 
sabby
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:40 pm

moyangmm wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
Image


Thank you!

If you compare 789 and 359 on SFO-SIN:

A359: 207 passengers + 0.58t cargo
B789: 215 passengers + 3.23t cargo

Let's assume each passenger plus bags is 100kg and replace cargo with passengers:

A359: 207 + 6 = 213 passengers
B789: 215 + 32 = 248 passengers

So in order to fly SFO-SIN westbound, UA 789 needs to block 252-248 = 4 seats. SQ 359 needs to block 253-213 = 40 seats!

Doesn't this confirm what I said?

Your calculation assumes SQ is taking off at 280T which is false. SQ standard A359s have 276T MTOW and they are taking off at much less than that for SIN-SFO. Go read the tech ops forum to get real data.

Also, DL A359 have stated 7000nm range due to their config and MTOW. That doesn't equal to all A359 payload-range. Again, go read the techops forum to learn how airlines operate and how everything is not apple to apple.
 
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SQ22
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:56 pm

The horse about the fuel burn comparison of B789 vs. A359 has been ridden to death by certain members, while I do appreciate the patience of some other members explaining the situation very insightful I kindly ask you to stay on topic, which is the MTOW increase.
 
ewt340
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:56 pm

Seems like this could be a tandem project for the -9 and the -10. Those MTOW increase would be extremely useful for B787-10.
 
TranscendZac
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:30 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Seems like this could be a tandem project for the -9 and the -10. Those MTOW increase would be extremely useful for B787-10.

I thought the 789/78J were at the max weights due to landing gear/tire loading? How are they getting the 2.5t increase? Also, could they look at using 777-8/9 tires on existing gear the way the 764 used 777 tires to help with tire loading?
Zac
 
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Stitch
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:15 pm

TranscendZac wrote:
I thought the 789/78J were at the max weights due to landing gear/tire loading? How are they getting the 2.5t increase?


I'd been told that 255,000kg was the limit, but I am guessing better modeling and/or in-service data showed the landing gear could take greater weight.
 
tealnz
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:20 am

ewt340 wrote:
Seems like this could be a tandem project for the -9 and the -10. Those MTOW increase would be extremely useful for B787-10.

Someone earlier suggested that it was a strengthening of the wing/body join for the extra weight of the 78J fuselage that made possible a small MTOW increase for the 789. If that’s the case it doesn’t offer a MTOW increase for the 78J.
 
tealnz
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:41 pm

At the edge of the 789’s range (like LAX-SIN) how much extra time/distance does 2.5t actually give you? The aircraft is carrying fuel to carry fuel after all. In practice the 2.5t would buy you rather less than 280nm, surely?
 
thepinkmachine
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:55 pm

tealnz wrote:
At the edge of the 789’s range (like LAX-SIN) how much extra time/distance does 2.5t actually give you? The aircraft is carrying fuel to carry fuel after all. In practice the 2.5t would buy you rather less than 280nm, surely?


My (somewhat educated) guess is 150-200Nm. It would also depend on the payload.
"Tell my wife I am trawling Atlantis - and I still have my hands on the wheel…"
 
thepinkmachine
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:40 pm

Update - had a look into FCOM data. 2.5T extra fuel close to the edge of range envelope yields slightly less than 200Nm extra range. Also this 2.5 extra could be used towards lifting higher payload, probably 15-20 more pax at longer ranges (taking into account extra burn from higher weight)
"Tell my wife I am trawling Atlantis - and I still have my hands on the wheel…"
 
travelhound
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:44 pm

From where I sit the extra MTOW could be used to help maintain payload when the aircraft starts to reach the "edge of the range envelope". This is also relevant (probably more so) for high density configurations where the aircraft is more likely to reach range limitations

In the thread opener I postured the question that the increase in MTOW could be linked to other improvements. We know Boeing have made incremental improvements to the 787, but from the news (I have read), this has revolved more around commonality (between models) and cost of manufacture reductions........not performance!

I suspect, along the product development journey, there could have been quite a few improvements that had a positive effect on performance. As such, there could be other performance improvements that could compliment a higher gross weight model?

Using Airbus as an example, their work to increase the performance of the A330 (MTOW increases) has seen this aircraft enter the A340-300's market space. From an observers perspective, these improvements have been quite remarkable.

With there being anecdotal evidence (reports from Boeing and the engine manufacturers) the 787 will have a mid life upgrade around 2025 (with the MOM coming on stream this may no longer be the case) could we see a pre-midlife improvement package for the 787 (just like the 777-300ER) to keep this aircraft relevant?

Considering Boeing are currently producing 14 787's per months, there has to be something or there will be something about this aircraft that makes it a "favourite" among airlines.
Last edited by travelhound on Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:55 pm

travelhound wrote:
Using Airbus as an example, their work to increase the performance of the A330 (MTOW increases) has seen this aircraft enter the A340-300's market space. From an observers perspective, these improvements have been quite remarkable.


Well the A330 benefitted from the underlying structure needed to support the higher gross weights of the A340.
 
bigjku
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:31 am

travelhound wrote:
From where I sit the extra MTOW could be used to help maintain payload when the aircraft starts to reach the "edge of the range envelope". This is also relevant (probably more so) for high density configurations where the aircraft is more likely to reach range limitations

In the thread opener I postured the question that the increase in MTOW could be linked to other improvements. We know Boeing have made incremental improvements to the 787, but from the news (I have read), this has revolved more around commonality (between models) and cost of manufacture reductions........not performance!

I suspect, along the product development journey, there could have been quite a few improvements that had a positive effect on performance. As such, there could be other performance improvements that could compliment a higher gross weight model?

Using Airbus as an example, their work to increase the performance of the A330 (MTOW increases) has seen this aircraft enter the A340-300's market space. From an observers perspective, these improvements have been quite remarkable.

With there being anecdotal evidence (reports from Boeing and the engine manufacturers) the 787 will have a mid life upgrade around 2025 (with the MOM coming on stream this may no longer be the case) could we see a pre-midlife improvement package for the 787 (just like the 777-300ER) to keep this aircraft relevant?

Considering Boeing are currently producing 14 787's per months, there has to be something or there will be something about this aircraft that makes it a "favourite" among airlines.


It’s a favorite simply because the performance and price combo it offers is best for the vast majority of airlines and routes. You don’t want over performance. Over performance is a bad thing in a lot of ways.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:58 am

tealnz wrote:
At the edge of the 789’s range (like LAX-SIN) how much extra time/distance does 2.5t actually give you? The aircraft is carrying fuel to carry fuel after all. In practice the 2.5t would buy you rather less than 280nm, surely?

I posted the answer to this yesterday and the post must have been deleted.

The difference between lax-sin and sfo-sin is 280nm

That 2.5T MTOW increase will pretty much cover most of that. As the SFO flights dont have blocked seats this would allow LAX to work year round with only the most extreme weather events requiring some blocked seats.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:20 am

Will be very curious to find out whether the possibility of higher MTOW comes from data about/changes to the gear or the fuselage. If the former, there should be no reason the 787-10 can't also be included. If the latter, then the increase could well be limited to the 787-9.

200 nm might be helpful to a few 787-9 operators at the margins (like this endlessly discussed UA to SIN example) but it would be a big deal to to the 787-10's prospects in general.
 
travelhound
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:03 am

Some airlines have their 787's equipped with 335 seats. I suspect they would love up a bump up on MTOW.
 
tealnz
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:34 am

RJMAZ wrote:
tealnz wrote:
At the edge of the 789’s range (like LAX-SIN) how much extra time/distance does 2.5t actually give you? The aircraft is carrying fuel to carry fuel after all. In practice the 2.5t would buy you rather less than 280nm, surely?

I posted the answer to this yesterday and the post must have been deleted.

The difference between lax-sin and sfo-sin is 280nm. That 2.5T MTOW increase will pretty much cover most of that.

Looks as if it's worth a bit less than 280nm. thepinkmachine has some FCOM numbers:

thepinkmachine wrote:
Update - had a look into FCOM data. 2.5T extra fuel close to the edge of range envelope yields slightly less than 200Nm extra range. Also this 2.5 extra could be used towards lifting higher payload, probably 15-20 more pax at longer ranges (taking into account extra burn from higher weight)

But it would obviously help on a marginal route like LAX-SIN.
 
tealnz
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:47 am

A footnote on the real-world implications. The hint that Boeing was trying to find a bit more range for the 787 originally came from NZ CEO Chris Luxon. It attracted interest because he mentioned in the context of 77E fleet replacement – where previously indications were that the 789 lacked payload/range to be in contention. I'm not sure the news of a 2.5t MTOW increase alters the equation much. NZ are looking for an aircraft that can comfortably do not only IAH and ORD but also NYC. NZ configurations are comparatively dense (their business mode is more leisure traffic than business, unlike SQ/CX/QF). And they carry a lot of freight, westbound as well as eastbound. NYC-AKL is the same distance as LAX-SIN. We saw what happened there. Somehow I don't think NZ will feel the 789 is the solution unless they can persuade themselves they can make the route viable with a super-low density configuration.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:06 am

Using Boeing's ACAPs (so they are at least internally consistent with each other), at a 53,000kg payload the 777-200ER is good for a bit under 6000nm compared to 5250nm for the 787-9. So if this MTOW boost can get the 787-9 to around 5500nm, it might be close enough for NZ.
 
tealnz
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Re: Rumour: Boeing to increase 787-9 MTOW by 2.5 tonne

Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:41 am

Going by recent numbers posted by xwb565 on a tech/ops thread a 280t 359 would be able to fly 13hr with a 60t payload – roughly LAX/AKL I guess. Implying close to 50t for IAH-AKL. A choice to go with the 789 would definitely mean a big drop in capability compared to the 77E – and passing up the opportunity to replace the 77E with similar capability in a much more fuel-efficient package. So I guess the question will be how compelling the cost numbers are for the 789 and whether NZ are prepared to accept the operational compromises it would entail.

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