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LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:35 am

German news media are reporting that Lufthansa will relocate the DUS EW operation to FRA.

Given the reluctance in recent years to haben EW operate out of FRA, it’s a surprise move which I am not sure how it will play out with EW short haul still centred around DUS.

Also, in my opinion it makes sense for the leisure routes to places like Cuba to have better feed (although at higher costs) but I can’t help but wonder what will happen to the business routes (like New York) where DUS should have service (could we see UA EWR-DUS?) to, will they be replicated at FRA? Or will EW withdraw altogether from the US with the DOT’s decision limiting wetleases?

https://www.aero.de/news-31101/Lufthans ... kfurt.html
(German only)[twoid][/twoid]
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LH779
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:11 am

It seems they will use the Sunexpress Deutschland operated A332s for the expansion in FRA. The aircraft operated by SN will remain in DUS (2 A333, 2 A343, will be 5 A333s in the future).

Edit: https://newsroom.lufthansagroup.com/english/newsroom/all/lufthansa-group-expands-tourist-oriented-long-haul-portfolio-in-frankfurt-and-munich-with-eurowings/s/02b2c690-daa7-461b-8e11-9ac11e3a8faf
In the press release they are only mentioning the 7 A332s.
 
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GEUltraFan9XGTF
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:59 am

It seems to me that between EW and SN, LH doesn't know what or where to do with its LCC plans.
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stylo777
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:20 pm

Many will think that LH doesn't have a strategy for their lowcost-leisure airlines. They surely have one, but the high dynamics of the aviation industry in recent years make them move away from their original strategies in order to find the best possible answer for market demand and supply. In other words, they need to keep the organisational dynamics high to stay on top and this involves such moves.

On the other hand, it was a matter of time to bring EW to FRA. I guess, it was politicially quite challenging during the first years of (re)establishment of Eurowings. They always underlined "EW stays out of the hubs". At that time cockpit and cabin crew negotiations were almost daily news. Also one of the reasons why project "Jump" was invented - an agreement to safe LH Cityline crews. With things settled with the unions, longterm agreements made and the demise of many airlines recently (especially Air Berlin and Germania for the German aviation market) and the closure of project "Jump", it is probably the right time to make this move.

Going a little further, I also see some tactics in the Condor game. MRU, BGI and WDH are typical Condor destinations. Not sure if they are going to stick to those three at the beginning, but if they would add more I'm sure HAV, PUJ, CUN and CPT are high on that list with the latter two currently being served by LH like MRU. Other interesting ones are KUL, LAS and MBA.
Check Condor timetables to easily find out: https://www.condor.com/eu/book-plan/fli ... etable.jsp

To leave SN operated longhaul in DUS makes sense - reduces complexity with crewing. With the addition of 4x 333 and returning the 2x 343 back to LH, the net-fleet of SN operated will be 6x 333, all in DUS. Sunexpress operates the 332 only (in total 7 as also mentioned in their press release). One is already in MUC flying MRU, CUN, MBJ, PUJ... A second one will join taking over the daily BKK flight. My guess is to add maybe a third one and push the remaining 4 out of 7 to FRA. A with a fleet of 4x 332 in FRA one can certainly do a lot.

They mentioned the Edelweiss model within SWISS and the LHGroup. I don't believe it is comparable. WK is offering a high-end leisure travel experience to a very wealthy market (CH). They only do this in ZRH - no BSL or GVA flying at all. Sure, EW/LH did learn quite a few things from the WK/LX success story, but again, it's not the same.

Very interesting times ahead.
 
avek00
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:01 pm

stylo777 wrote:
Going a little further, I also see some tactics in the Condor game. MRU, BGI and WDH are typical Condor destinations. Not sure if they are going to stick to those three at the beginning, but if they would add more I'm sure HAV, PUJ, CUN and CPT are high on that list with the latter two currently being served by LH like MRU. Other interesting ones are KUL, LAS and MBA.
Check Condor timetables to easily find out: https://www.condor.com/eu/book-plan/fli ... etable.jsp


TBH I see the move as entirely directed against Condor (Thomas Cook). While LH and DE managed (with a wink and a nod) to largely avoid stepping on each other's longhaul toes since Condor was sold off years ago, going forward that position is increasingly untenable.
Live life to the fullest.
 
TheDBCooper
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:15 pm

Is LH not at odds with Fraport at the moment around facility fees? Perhaps this is a move intended to add pressure to Fraport?
 
fraT
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:50 pm

TheDBCooper wrote:
Is LH not at odds with Fraport at the moment around facility fees? Perhaps this is a move intended to add pressure to Fraport?

Since Eurowings is a "new" Airline in FRA, they should get those discounts from FRAPORT which LH was so upset about when they were given to Ryanair.
 
cgnnrw
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:00 pm

Okay, so maybe I missed it but does this mean there will no longer be ANY DUS-EWR flights? That would leave DL as the sole operator providing non-stop service to the States with its ATL route.
A330 man.
 
santi319
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:08 pm

Is MIA-DUS also gone? How stupid to send everyone via FRA when DUS can also handle its own....
 
748iDEN
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:17 pm

As someone who travels very frequently from the U.S to DUS this is really a sad move. Clearly there is a market between DUS and NY at the bare minimum just by looking at the catchment area. Not to mention that DUS isn't exactly a poor city that should be able to sustain a handful of flights to the U.S. Hopefully DL's ATL flight won't be the only way to get to DUS from the U.S.
 
MAH4546
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:22 pm

santi319 wrote:
Is MIA-DUS also gone? How stupid to send everyone via FRA when DUS can also handle its own....


No.

Brussels Airlines will continue to operate MIADUS (and EWRDUS).
a.
 
stylo777
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:08 pm

slightly related to this and discussed here US To Restrict Use of EU Wet-Leases On TATL Traffic
LH/EW is going to have some issues to serve the US under current agreements. In particular, the LH operated by LH Cityline and EW operated by Sunexpress wet-leases will be restricted by US and EU regulations once fully implemented by DOT. Surely it is also a reason why SN is going to take-over the DUS-based US flying (which is of course limited again to 14-months only). On the other hand, the 343's currently operated within EW as well as the JUMP ones will be reintrigrated to LH fleet. However, the impact is pretty slim with currently only FRA-ATL left as US flight operated by LHCityline.
 
LH779
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:19 pm

stylo777 wrote:
Surely it is also a reason why SN is going to take-over the DUS-based US flying (which is of course limited again to 14-months only)


The US routes were always operated by SN though.
 
DDR
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:40 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
santi319 wrote:
Is MIA-DUS also gone? How stupid to send everyone via FRA when DUS can also handle its own....


No.

Brussels Airlines will continue to operate MIADUS (and EWRDUS).


I'm a little confused so pardon my ignorance on this subject but, are the EWR-DUS flights marketed as LH flights but actually operated by Brussels Airlines? Are the cabin crew German or Belgian?
 
LH779
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:44 pm

DDR wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
santi319 wrote:
Is MIA-DUS also gone? How stupid to send everyone via FRA when DUS can also handle its own....


No.

Brussels Airlines will continue to operate MIADUS (and EWRDUS).


I'm a little confused so pardon my ignorance on this subject but, are the EWR-DUS flights marketed as LH flights but actually operated by Brussels Airlines? Are the cabin crew German or Belgian?


They are EW flights operated by SN. EW's A332 are operated by XG (Sunexpress Deutschland) while the A333s and A343s that fly to the US are operated by SN. Cabin Crew should be German.

edit: LH's last longhaul route out of DUS (to EWR) was transferred to EW last year.
 
DUSZRH
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:48 pm

Currently (since November18) the EWR-DUS flights are marketed by EW and opb SN. Beforehand they were operated and marketed by LH. SN has a opened a base in DUS, hence mainly German crew, especially in the Cabin.

DUS has 3-4 XG aircraft operating, which will be moved. The SN base is supposed to grow by 1 or 2 frames.
 
DDR
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:06 am

Thanks guys for the thoughtful and well informed posts!
 
vfw614
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:07 am

Apparently DUS will get 5 ex Lufthansa 330-300 opb SN. The 7 A332 opb SunExpress will be split between FRA and MUC.

Given the pathethic reliability of SunExpress, I see it as a positive development if DUS becomes an all SN-base, even if the overall number of airframes will be slightly reduced. More comfortable, more reliable airplanes for DUS. In a way, DUS will get a Lufthansa light longhaul product aimed at both business and leisure pax opb EW, whereas MUC and FRA will get a Condor look-a-like product geared towards the leisure market opb EW
 
stylo777
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:14 am

LH779 wrote:
stylo777 wrote:
Surely it is also a reason why SN is going to take-over the DUS-based US flying (which is of course limited again to 14-months only)


The US routes were always operated by SN though.

not quite...
# CGN to LAS, MCO, MIA, RSW, SEA
# DUS to JFK, MIA
# MUC to LAS, RSW
...have all been operated by XG in the past
 
stylo777
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:24 am

vfw614 wrote:
Apparently DUS will get 5 ex Lufthansa 330-300 opb SN. The 7 A332 opb SunExpress will be split between FRA and MUC.

Given the pathethic reliability of SunExpress, I see it as a positive development if DUS becomes an all SN-base, even if the overall number of airframes will be slightly reduced. More comfortable, more reliable airplanes for DUS. In a way, DUS will get a Lufthansa light longhaul product aimed at both business and leisure pax opb EW, whereas MUC and FRA will get a Condor look-a-like product geared towards the leisure market opb EW

is the reliability issue still the case? yes, I remember it being an issue in the beginning of longhaul operations. this was mainly driven by lack of equipment which even lead to wetleases of TUI 767.
could it also be that the 332's are actually second hand aircraft (ex. QR, BR and TK planes) compared to the 333/343's delivered new to LH and transfered to EW ops. on the other hand, isn't the maintenance carried out by LH Technik at all German bases?
 
LH779
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:45 am

stylo777 wrote:
LH779 wrote:
stylo777 wrote:
Surely it is also a reason why SN is going to take-over the DUS-based US flying (which is of course limited again to 14-months only)


The US routes were always operated by SN though.

not quite...
# CGN to LAS, MCO, MIA, RSW, SEA
# DUS to JFK, MIA
# MUC to LAS, RSW
...have all been operated by XG in the past


CGN and MUC are not DUS-based US flying and the US routes out of DUS were primarily SN operated.
 
cgnnrw
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:25 pm

DUSZRH wrote:
Currently (since November18) the EWR-DUS flights are marketed by EW and opb SN. Beforehand they were operated and marketed by LH. SN has a opened a base in DUS, hence mainly German crew, especially in the Cabin.

DUS has 3-4 XG aircraft operating, which will be moved. The SN base is supposed to grow by 1 or 2 frames.


The important question is in case of a major incident "who gets sued?" LH? SN? XG????
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PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:36 pm

Wasn't LH transferring a lot of "connecting" traffic - i.e., lower yielding - to MUC from FRA, due to costs at Frankfurt?

I'm not going to second guess the LH group, but this is really odd to me. Frankfurt is very limited on expansion, and the premium traffic is quite large. DUS or BRU would seem to be the better low-cost hubs in which to have all this leisure traffic channeled through.
 
santi319
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:42 pm

LH779 wrote:
DDR wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:

No.

Brussels Airlines will continue to operate MIADUS (and EWRDUS).


I'm a little confused so pardon my ignorance on this subject but, are the EWR-DUS flights marketed as LH flights but actually operated by Brussels Airlines? Are the cabin crew German or Belgian?


They are EW flights operated by SN. EW's A332 are operated by XG (Sunexpress Deutschland) while the A333s and A343s that fly to the US are operated by SN. Cabin Crew should be German.

edit: LH's last longhaul route out of DUS (to EWR) was transferred to EW last year.


What kind of Norwegian Air is going on in here?? Damn
 
AIRT0M
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:49 pm

The new MUC-BKK flight announced by LH will now be operated by XG in EW colors (with an LH flight number and LH service), without a business class (business passengers will be rebooked via FRA) ... this might be quite a surprise for many passengers, when they board the plane.
 
A388
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:10 pm

So will Eurowings remain flying longhaul to the Caribbean from DUS or will all the Caribbean flights be moved to FRA?

A388
 
axiom
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:14 pm

Very curious move. Wonder which routes will emerge in FRA. Existing LH routes, or new ventures to complete with DE?
 
eamondzhang
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:34 pm

AIRT0M wrote:
The new MUC-BKK flight announced by LH will now be operated by XG in EW colors (with an LH flight number and LH service), without a business class (business passengers will be rebooked via FRA) ... this might be quite a surprise for many passengers, when they board the plane.

Confirmed via GDS - although the flight still shows as A359 operating, no C class bookable and Y class seatmap is in 2-4-2 config.

Strange move I would say although somewhat understandable.

Michael
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:15 pm

So, here's a curious thought;

This is SN's recently launched rebranding of their long-haul product;

https://thedesignair.net/2019/03/02/brussels-airlines-launches-boutique-hotel-in-the-sky/

Brussels Airlines has just revealed a rebranding and repositioning of its in-flight product which will grace the skies on it’s A330 fleet starting in April. By investing 10 million euros per aircraft in a completely new Business Class, new Premium Economy and Economy Class the airline wants to offer a personal experience – dubbed ‘a boutique hotel’ feel – at 30,000 feet.


So, will passengers be flying on these aircraft - to DUS, as these aircaft dba EW? I mean, if so - then - major win for DUS!
 
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nordikcam
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:57 pm

Rajahdhani wrote:
So, here's a curious thought;

This is SN's recently launched rebranding of their long-haul product;

https://thedesignair.net/2019/03/02/brussels-airlines-launches-boutique-hotel-in-the-sky/

Brussels Airlines has just revealed a rebranding and repositioning of its in-flight product which will grace the skies on it’s A330 fleet starting in April. By investing 10 million euros per aircraft in a completely new Business Class, new Premium Economy and Economy Class the airline wants to offer a personal experience – dubbed ‘a boutique hotel’ feel – at 30,000 feet.


So, will passengers be flying on these aircraft - to DUS, as these aircaft dba EW? I mean, if so - then - major win for DUS!


New long haul product will be for the SN'fleet in BRU. In DUS, some A 330 from EW operated by SN only.
 
DUSZRH
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:44 pm

A388 wrote:
So will Eurowings remain flying longhaul to the Caribbean from DUS or will all the Caribbean flights be moved to FRA?

A388


In the local newspaper it was reported that there will still be flights to the Caribbean, it will be interesting to see if there will be expansion of EW opb SN or a shift of US Destinations to the Caribbean.
 
DUSZRH
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Re: LH Transfers EW long haul from DUS to FRA

Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:47 pm

axiom wrote:
Very curious move. Wonder which routes will emerge in FRA. Existing LH routes, or new ventures to complete with DE?


I reckon it’s a bit of a strike against Condor, starting to compete in their main business area, lowering the value of the company in case of acquisition, making it less attractive for potential competitors to invest in Condor, as people will expect a broader EW in case Condor long haul won’t be taken over.

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