Nicknuzzii
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New Jersey Aviation Thread - 2019

Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:57 pm

While EWR is undoubtedly the most dominant airport in the state. We also have ACY and TTN the feature commercial air service. What are everyone's predictions for what can happen in NJ's aviation in 2019?

ACY- I would like to see a new carrier enter the market (Extremely unlikely). What airlines and routes do you see as feasible?

TTN- Concepts have been released for a new terminal. I don't think it's too bold to say we could possibly see another frontier add with 3-4 weekly frequencies.

EWR- Anything can happen at this point. What are some adds you think?
 
jerseyewr777
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:06 am

Nice thread to start! I like it!!
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:35 am

TTN really needs mass transit access via bus from the major Trenton station and the SEPTA West Trenton station to become a viable commercial airport alternative to PHL and EWR.
 
andrikACY
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:09 am

Would like to see another airline to come into ACY. Maybe a AA, Frontier, or JetBlue? Also they have talked about it for years but putting a rail stop on the NJT AC Line at the airport to help draw more people to the airport.
 
jplatts
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:28 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
TTN- Concepts have been released for a new terminal. I don't think it's too bold to say we could possibly see another frontier add with 3-4 weekly frequencies.


F9 could add TTN-DEN nonstop service since TTN is one of the few remaining East Coast destinations that doesn't already have nonstop service to DEN on F9. F9 also usually serves DEN nonstop from most of its destinations in the contiguous U.S. on at least a seasonal basis, and TTN is one of the few F9 destinations in the contiguous U.S. that doesn't have nonstop service to DEN on F9.

Is TTN's runway actually long enough to accommodate F9 TTN-DEN nonstop service on A320neo planes?
 
global2
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:57 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
TTN really needs mass transit access via bus from the major Trenton station and the SEPTA West Trenton station to become a viable commercial airport alternative to PHL and EWR.


Any chance the NJT River Line could be extended? I'm not familiar with the area so I wouldn't know if it's feasible.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:35 am

global2 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
TTN really needs mass transit access via bus from the major Trenton station and the SEPTA West Trenton station to become a viable commercial airport alternative to PHL and EWR.


Any chance the NJT River Line could be extended? I'm not familiar with the area so I wouldn't know if it's feasible.


It would be another 7 miles. I don't see it as feasible via rail...hence why I suggested a bus connection. TTN is off I-295. This is where I would say that a new route needs to be created...I'll call it the 614, timed to meet the train into Trenton Transit Center and the nearby West Trenton station. The 607 runs near the airport on weekdays, but does not serve the airport terminal, and weekend service on the route (ending short) is only every 90-100 minutes.

BTW, what is the largest scheduled plane into TTN for F9, which is the only airline servicing TTN since G4 pulled out?
 
Bigant0408
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:53 am

jplatts wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
TTN- Concepts have been released for a new terminal. I don't think it's too bold to say we could possibly see another frontier add with 3-4 weekly frequencies.


F9 could add TTN-DEN nonstop service since TTN is one of the few remaining East Coast destinations that doesn't already have nonstop service to DEN on F9. F9 also usually serves DEN nonstop from most of its destinations in the contiguous U.S. on at least a seasonal basis, and TTN is one of the few F9 destinations in the contiguous U.S. that doesn't have nonstop service to DEN on F9.

Is TTN's runway actually long enough to accommodate F9 TTN-DEN nonstop service on A320neo planes?


TTN longest runway is about 6,005 ft so a route to DEN with F9 more than likely wouldn’t work for the aircrafts they use. If MOXY does start service at TTN as rumored with a A220 then it can definitely flying to west coast because of its extended range.
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F9LASDEN
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:30 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
global2 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
TTN really needs mass transit access via bus from the major Trenton station and the SEPTA West Trenton station to become a viable commercial airport alternative to PHL and EWR.


Any chance the NJT River Line could be extended? I'm not familiar with the area so I wouldn't know if it's feasible.


It would be another 7 miles. I don't see it as feasible via rail...hence why I suggested a bus connection. TTN is off I-295. This is where I would say that a new route needs to be created...I'll call it the 614, timed to meet the train into Trenton Transit Center and the nearby West Trenton station. The 607 runs near the airport on weekdays, but does not serve the airport terminal, and weekend service on the route (ending short) is only every 90-100 minutes.

BTW, what is the largest scheduled plane into TTN for F9, which is the only airline servicing TTN since G4 pulled out?


I believe that the largest planes F9 sends into TTN is their A320s, which they have densely configured with 186 seats.
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Jerseyguy
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:15 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
TTN really needs mass transit access via bus from the major Trenton station and the SEPTA West Trenton station to become a viable commercial airport alternative to PHL and EWR.

TTN to SEPTA and Philly would be real easy to do but I fear Mercer County is worried about upsetting the taxis and possibly unions that would support them.

The current contract for the parking shuttle (and ones for the past couple of years) have stipulated that Mercer County have the option to require a stop at the West Trenton Station (its all online if you know where to look). That at the very least they should do (SEPTA is only 1.5 miles from the terminal), New York would be the hard one.

Bigant0408 wrote:
TTN longest runway is about 6,005 ft so a route to DEN with F9 more than likely wouldn’t work for the aircrafts they use. If MOXY does start service at TTN as rumored with a A220 then it can definitely flying to west coast because of its extended range.

Its 6006ft and this would have likely been extended atleast 500ft by now if not for the NIMBYs in Bucks County across the river. Which is interesting because what did they think would happen to an airport that has had commerical service since the 80s and is between the #1 and #8 metro areas by population. But yes, Moxy has a great advantage with its A220s, it can make it anywhere in the CONUS and has fewer seats to fill
Not sure how sucessful TTN-DEN-WEST COAST (and other areas) would do, I think part of its success is the flights are nonstop and you wouldn't lose the time you spent traveling to EWR or PHL in a connection (though the ULCC low fares might make up for that)

Frontier's TTN fleet is A320CEOs and NEOs. I'm excited about the new terminal and possibly Moxy, this could be big for Trenton.
Last edited by Jerseyguy on Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MaksFly
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:23 am

TTN is unique for sure... unfortunately mostly VFR traffic until they get a carrier with any business connections. TTN was quite close to me, but only flew once to MCO... otherwise, I drove out an hour to PHL or EWR to catch Delta... even if flying to Florida, etc.

Ever since TTN started charging for parking would rather drive 15 mins more to EWR... get an actual airline lounge, etc. And of course, no close connections to major rail. Cool airport for spotting.

ACY is a terrific airport and loved flying out of there... but Atlantic City is not really a draw and no major population center there.

Biggest issue with ACY and TTN is actually when it comes to IRROPS.... If you have an issue, odds are you can get into EWR or PHL on a later flight or different carrier. Flying into ACY? eh... TTN? Forget it. And why it is essentially a deal breaker for me... (when I lived close to TTN).
 
Jerseyguy
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:55 am

MaksFly wrote:
Ever since TTN started charging for parking would rather drive 15 mins more to EWR... get an actual airline lounge, etc. And of course, no close connections to major rail. Cool airport for spotting.

Yeah, it definitely was an advantage when parking was free. They really did need the renovation they did back in 2013 when they started charging for parking (no bathrooms post security very small gate area, nothing to drink past security). Though I was very disappointed when I drove by the terminal a few days before they reopened and saw it was $8 a day. I was hoping for $4-5.

The upgrade on the baggage trailer that they did recently they really needed as well because when 2 planes come in at once scheduled or due to a delay, the old trailer wasn't big enough for both planes so passengers weren't let off of the second plane until everyone was out of the baggage claim (plus no bathrooms in that either which was also fixed).. I think that yes without a carrier with a good plan for IRROPs (spare plane, would bus to PHL for canceled flight) its going to be VFR. I think the new terminal will help out drawing a carrier like that,

Your lucky EWR is only 15 minutes further. For me Trenton is 35 minutes Newark and Philly are 1:15 (with the usual traffic). So on most days I can drive to TTN and back in the time it takes me to travel to another airport.
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EWRandMDW
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:27 am

Nearly 30 years ago I lived in Somerset County and worked in Mercer County at a company near the intersection of US 1 and Alexander Road. When I travelled for work it was always out of EWR. It seemed to make the most sense because there was frequency and choice from that airport. I might have tried PHL, but at the time I 295 on the NJ side of the Delaware had a gap of several miles and I 95 through Philadelphia during certain times of the day was surely a preview of hell. Then I discovered US Air at TTN. There were several commuter-type flights to BWI and 2 or 3 jet flights to PIT. I took an F28 to PIT for an easy connection to LAX and returned the same way. It was fantastic! The terminal was small and lacked many amenities, but you could park for free and there was very easy access to I-295 which made for a < 20 minute drive back to my workplace.

I had since moved to suburban Chicago. About 10 years ago I returned for an on-site contract near Lawrenceville. It was even closer to TTN than my previous job, but there was no longer any airline service. Road traffic had greatly increased during the 20 years I was gone and making it to either EWR or PHL on a Friday night for the last flight home to Chicago was a very uncertain proposition. The drive to either airport, finding a place to park, getting to the terminal and through security could easily take 2 hours, and sometimes more. I would have loved for there to be an alternative at TTN I could use, but such was not the case. The demand (not just from me) exists.There are many large companies in the area. All that's needed is for an air carrier to commit to TTN and offer at least a couple of services/day to places like Chicago, Atlanta, Raleigh, Detroit. maybe Dallas. And advertise that those services exist and don't price them to fail.
 
Jerseyguy
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:15 am

EWRandMDW wrote:
All that's needed is for an air carrier to commit to TTN and offer at least a couple of services/day to places like Chicago, Atlanta, Raleigh, Detroit. maybe Dallas. And advertise that those services exist and don't price them to fail.

.
Hopefully the new terminal will attract a major to TTN. Likely it would be DL as both AA and UA have hubs within the catchment.

DL could easily do ATL and DTW both hubs to allow for connections. A220 could get them to DFW, SLC, LAS, AUS. But for starters ATL/DTW would be fine.

DL came into Trenton awhile back to ATL, MCO, and BOS.
Their problem was that they were overpriced ($50-75RT surcharge), only 1X to ATL and it was a real early flight to ATL with an immediate turn around which really killed connections.

I wouldn't want DTW only because I wouldn't want to be at the mercy of winters
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tphuang
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:11 pm

I hope EWR after the new terminal comes up will actually provide more gate space for other carriers. I am planning to fly out of EWR more in the future and don't want to just fly UA everytime. B6 is quite profitable out of EWR. Hopefully they get a couple of more gates at least. A 6 or even 8 gate operation at EWR for B6 would provide some real competition against UA. I looked at WN's numbers out of EWR, they aren't great (got wiped out of IND/FLL/MCO). So I don't think they'd add much more there.
 
jplatts
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:06 am

tphuang wrote:
I looked at WN's numbers out of EWR, they aren't great (got wiped out of IND/FLL/MCO). So I don't think they'd add much more there.


WN had previously considered adding EWR-DAL nonstop service, but WN ended up increasing nonstop service to DAL from LGA instead. There is also a lot of O&D demand to LGA from both DAL and DFW.

Other top destinations traveled to from EWR that WN hasn't served nonstop from EWR include MCI, LAX, MKE, RDU, SMF, SAT, and SJC. There is less need for WN to serve MCI and MKE nonstop from EWR since WN already serves both of these destinations nonstop from LGA. RDU is also within the LGA perimeter, and WN could add LGA-RDU nonstop service if WN can acquire extra slots at LGA.

Is WN actually doing well on EWR-OAK and EWR-SAN nonstop service? If WN is actually doing well on EWR-OAK and EWR-SAN nonstop service and if there is enough demand for additional nonstop service to California out of EWR on WN, WN could add EWR-LAX and EWR-SMF nonstop service.

WN could also add EWR-SAT nonstop service if there is enough demand for additional nonstop service to SAT from EWR. A big difference between the SAT and AUS markets is that SAT isn't currently served by B6 whereas B6 already serves AUS nonstop from JFK. WN might be able to do better on EWR-SAT than on EWR-AUS since WN would not face competition from B6 on the EWR-SAT route.

Will WN add any new nonstop routes out of EWR such as EWR-DAL, EWR-LAX, EWR-SMF, or EWR-SAT?
 
tphuang
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:05 am

jplatts wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I looked at WN's numbers out of EWR, they aren't great (got wiped out of IND/FLL/MCO). So I don't think they'd add much more there.


WN had previously considered adding EWR-DAL nonstop service, but WN ended up increasing nonstop service to DAL from LGA instead. There is also a lot of O&D demand to LGA from both DAL and DFW.

Other top destinations traveled to from EWR that WN hasn't served nonstop from EWR include MCI, LAX, MKE, RDU, SMF, SAT, and SJC. There is less need for WN to serve MCI and MKE nonstop from EWR since WN already serves both of these destinations nonstop from LGA. RDU is also within the LGA perimeter, and WN could add LGA-RDU nonstop service if WN can acquire extra slots at LGA.

Is WN actually doing well on EWR-OAK and EWR-SAN nonstop service? If WN is actually doing well on EWR-OAK and EWR-SAN nonstop service and if there is enough demand for additional nonstop service to California out of EWR on WN, WN could add EWR-LAX and EWR-SMF nonstop service.

WN could also add EWR-SAT nonstop service if there is enough demand for additional nonstop service to SAT from EWR. A big difference between the SAT and AUS markets is that SAT isn't currently served by B6 whereas B6 already serves AUS nonstop from JFK. WN might be able to do better on EWR-SAT than on EWR-AUS since WN would not face competition from B6 on the EWR-SAT route.

Will WN add any new nonstop routes out of EWR such as EWR-DAL, EWR-LAX, EWR-SMF, or EWR-SAT?


No, they are doing well (above system average) on two routes out of EWR, STL and DEN.

After that, they do okay on MDW and PHX.

Everything else looses money. OAK is a disaster thus far. They are not ready to jump on a route like LAX or even SMF. That's too hard for WN out of NYC area.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:25 am

Do you think it's too far fetched for B6 to start transcons from EWR? The other day the a321 did sub in for a flight from BOS. I don't know if this was just an accident or trial.
 
jplatts
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:30 am

tphuang wrote:
No, they are doing well (above system average) on two routes out of EWR, STL and DEN.

After that, they do okay on MDW and PHX.

Everything else looses money. OAK is a disaster thus far. They are not ready to jump on a route like LAX or even SMF. That's too hard for WN out of NYC area.


One big difference between EWR-STL and the other WN nonstop routes out of EWR is that B6 doesn't serve STL whereas B6's JFK-AUS, JFK-ORD, JFK-DEN, JFK-FLL, JFK-MCO, JFK-PHX, JFK-SAN, and JFK-SFO nonstop routes are in competition with WN's EWR-AUS, EWR-MDW, EWR-DEN, EWR-FLL, EWR-MCO, EWR-PHX, EWR-SAN, and EWR-OAK nonstop routes.

If WN does add EWR-DAL nonstop service, would EWR-DAL nonstop service on WN likely be profitable, or would it likely be a money-losing route for WN?
 
PHLCVGAMTK
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:07 pm

Jerseyguy wrote:
EWRandMDW wrote:
All that's needed is for an air carrier to commit to TTN and offer at least a couple of services/day to places like Chicago, Atlanta, Raleigh, Detroit. maybe Dallas. And advertise that those services exist and don't price them to fail.

.
Hopefully the new terminal will attract a major to TTN. Likely it would be DL as both AA and UA have hubs within the catchment.

DL could easily do ATL and DTW both hubs to allow for connections. A220 could get them to DFW, SLC, LAS, AUS. But for starters ATL/DTW would be fine.

DL came into Trenton awhile back to ATL, MCO, and BOS.
Their problem was that they were overpriced ($50-75RT surcharge), only 1X to ATL and it was a real early flight to ATL with an immediate turn around which really killed connections.

I wouldn't want DTW only because I wouldn't want to be at the mercy of winters


I generally agree with this assessment. AA and UA can be contented to just have people drive or take the train to their hubs for nonstops to everywhere, but DL connects a lot of passengers through ATL or DTW in this region anyway, so going for the flank by opening TTN (or ACY, for that matter) and seeking a yield premium is in character. Just starting with a few CR7s daily to ATL would open up a whole range of Florida/Caribbean bucket-and-spade destinations, that could compete with F9 on service quality while being cost-competitive, while also providing a full range of business destinations as well. I'm not sure that this will happen soon, since I suspect that DL is about to add a lot of capacity to PHL as it retires the MDs and upgauges, but we'll see.

I would not have picked WN as a possibility, given their general withdrawal from a lot of the secondary airports that used to be their bread and butter, and the way they've generally been mauled at PHL. But if they're allegedly looking at 50 new domestic destinations, as mentioned in another thread, then I suppose TTN isn't that much more ridiculous than, say, Green Bay.

Whether TTN continues as a ULCC-only airport or picks up a major airline, a fast, direct bus connection to Trenton Station is a must, to pick up catchment leakage from New York and Philadelphia. Whether people are bargain-hunting or just hate their local airports, they will take the train to the bus to the plane as long as the price and the schedule are right. And given the short distance between the airport and the station, they should be. A bus to the train also gives TTN the edge in serving regional centers like New Brunswick or Princeton, although Princeton may be close enough to warrant its own bus route. (Does Frontier still market TTN as "Trenton/Princeton", or has that bit of real estate chicanery passed?)
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:34 pm

I personally think UA should add ACY-IAD. This would be open a lot of connections to basically anywhere. It also couldn't be much to operate with a crj-200? I see it as an easy money maker. DL could also try ATL too.
 
tphuang
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:43 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Do you think it's too far fetched for B6 to start transcons from EWR? The other day the a321 did sub in for a flight from BOS. I don't know if this was just an accident or trial.

Not at all. Mint from EWR to LAX is actually the most obvious add for B6 if they can get the gates, but it would also require probably 4 A321 deliveries to be competitive. That might be too much for them given the needs at BOS.
jplatts wrote:
tphuang wrote:
No, they are doing well (above system average) on two routes out of EWR, STL and DEN.

After that, they do okay on MDW and PHX.

Everything else looses money. OAK is a disaster thus far. They are not ready to jump on a route like LAX or even SMF. That's too hard for WN out of NYC area.


One big difference between EWR-STL and the other WN nonstop routes out of EWR is that B6 doesn't serve STL whereas B6's JFK-AUS, JFK-ORD, JFK-DEN, JFK-FLL, JFK-MCO, JFK-PHX, JFK-SAN, and JFK-SFO nonstop routes are in competition with WN's EWR-AUS, EWR-MDW, EWR-DEN, EWR-FLL, EWR-MCO, EWR-PHX, EWR-SAN, and EWR-OAK nonstop routes.

If WN does add EWR-DAL nonstop service, would EWR-DAL nonstop service on WN likely be profitable, or would it likely be a money-losing route for WN?

I think they will stick with LGA-DAL given the gate constraint issues at DAL. That one has been unprofitable based on the data i have so far, but with AS out, it will probably turn around by this year. EWR-OAK will be interesting to watch. I think it was launched to challenge AS at EWR-SJC, but so far the performance is dreadful. Not only that, JFK-OAK for B6 has also suffered. I don't think it will last for WN. They have been cutting routes that don't work out of EWR.
 
jplatts
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:14 pm

tphuang wrote:
I think they will stick with LGA-DAL given the gate constraint issues at DAL. That one has been unprofitable based on the data i have so far, but with AS out, it will probably turn around by this year. EWR-OAK will be interesting to watch. I think it was launched to challenge AS at EWR-SJC, but so far the performance is dreadful. Not only that, JFK-OAK for B6 has also suffered. I don't think it will last for WN. They have been cutting routes that don't work out of EWR.


I agree that WN will stick with LGA-DAL, even though WN did previously consider serving DAL nonstop from EWR.

I agree that WN cutting EWR-OAK nonstop service might happen with WN having dropped other nonstop routes out of EWR.

Is DAL-LGA the only unprofitable nonstop route that WN operates out of DAL, or does WN operate other unprofitable nonstop routes out of DAL?
 
EWRandMDW
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:33 pm

Regarding WN at EWR, they currently have 3 gates but since service began there seem to have been at most 18 daily departures averaging 6 per gate. I'm sure each gate can handle 1-2 more departures per day, but for some reason the total hasn't gone over 18. Is there a reason for that?
 
tphuang
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:01 pm

EWRandMDW wrote:
Regarding WN at EWR, they currently have 3 gates but since service began there seem to have been at most 18 daily departures averaging 6 per gate. I'm sure each gate can handle 1-2 more departures per day, but for some reason the total hasn't gone over 18. Is there a reason for that?


The reason is the result. They struggle with almost every route they launched there outside of PHX and STL. LGA is slightly more profitable for them so that's their main NYC station now. Just picking a day in late September, I see 17 flights for them (SAN seems to be cut + BNA 3x daily is added). That's pretty weak. I don't see what else they could even add at this point. EWR-Florida/MSY isn't going to work if MCO/FLL perfomed so badly. LAS isn't going to work if OAK is a struggle.

jplatts wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I think they will stick with LGA-DAL given the gate constraint issues at DAL. That one has been unprofitable based on the data i have so far, but with AS out, it will probably turn around by this year. EWR-OAK will be interesting to watch. I think it was launched to challenge AS at EWR-SJC, but so far the performance is dreadful. Not only that, JFK-OAK for B6 has also suffered. I don't think it will last for WN. They have been cutting routes that don't work out of EWR.


I agree that WN will stick with LGA-DAL, even though WN did previously consider serving DAL nonstop from EWR.

I agree that WN cutting EWR-OAK nonstop service might happen with WN having dropped other nonstop routes out of EWR.

Is DAL-LGA the only unprofitable nonstop route that WN operates out of DAL, or does WN operate other unprofitable nonstop routes out of DAL?

fyi, looks like EWR-SAN is gone.

there are other unprofitable routes out of DAL like LAX/OAK/SFO/SEA/PDX. But DAL-HOU is far away the most profitable route in WN network, DAL-SAT/AUS are also in the top 5. So it's likely the most profitable station in the system (or maybe HOU is). Texas is where WN really dominates.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:18 pm

In all my trips to NYC, I learned my way around JFK, LGA, and EWR. Once I discovered the AirTrain that connects to NJ Transit, EWR became my airport of choice, as the train to Penn Station was just too convenient compared to LGA and JFK.

Then I married a man from New Jersey, and we've been using EWR for nearly a decade now for visiting family and friends in the Garden State. I never thought in my life I would be driving in the NYC metro area, but sure enough, I did it! Now that I've had a guide to get me going, it's all been good - but trying to figure out the spaghetti that is the highway system in front of EWR (Route 1/Route 9/Route 21/Route 22/Route 78) is what used to give me a headache. However, having someone who tells you which direction to go and how to navigate the area made all the difference in the world.

To the topic at hand: I don't think there's enough traffic to sustain three carriers year-round on SAN-EWR. United seems content with their three flights per day, and Alaska is holding steady with its one daily roundtrip. For Southwest, I agree that WN can utilize that plane - and gate space - on a more profitable route.

As far as TTN goes, there was a post about the expansion of the terminal there a while back. I posted that I picture TTN becoming like BUR, LGB, or SNA: NIMBY's readying themselves for the apocalypse if there was even one millimeter of expansion of the terminal, with fleets of attorneys ready to take on the airport and entire state of New Jersey over any kind of expansion, crying into the cameras, "won't someone PLEASE think of the children?" or something equally stupid. Does anyone know if this is the case?
 
Jerseyguy
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:46 am

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
As far as TTN goes, there was a post about the expansion of the terminal there a while back. I posted that I picture TTN becoming like BUR, LGB, or SNA: NIMBY's readying themselves for the apocalypse if there was even one millimeter of expansion of the terminal, with fleets of attorneys ready to take on the airport and entire state of New Jersey over any kind of expansion, crying into the cameras, "won't someone PLEASE think of the children?" or something equally stupid. Does anyone know if this is the case?


Oh yeah, they are pulling all the tricks out. They've had several lawsuits all have been dismissed (one was dismissed because their lawyer filed it in the wrong court), its always comical. They've since conned Lower Makefield Township (where most of them live) into hiring a big time aviation attorney from Califonia I think. Back in 2017: Mercer County posted a traffic foreceast between 2015 and 2035. Airline movements go from 9,010 movements in 2015 to 12,364 in 2035 the total operations go from 82,566 to 95,275. They claim 12,364 to possibly 150,000. When I confronted them where they got the number they claimed a member of the engineering team which is doing the master plan told them it could go to that number. Ridiculous!!!. They also claim health concerns and that the expansion of the terminal would be like "Think LaGuardia in your back yard".They are also demanding a EIS, which I'm sure most people on this board know thats not how it works, a EA is done and then that decides whether a EIS (a more through look) is necessary.

Photo of their flyer
http://ttninfo2.jigsy.com/files/resized/123350/487;665;8965901c11833c9003b0ad4c43f26b35dbc1d069.jpg

Article about the new lawyer
https://www.buckscountycouriertimes.com/0c2cfa08-5068-11e7-9e74-9fe4fa963ed9.html

I blocked out Tracey's number if you wish to donate DM me :D I also went to one of their meetings (Bucks NIMBYS) where they claimed they could force Mercer County to enforce a curfew which we know is very hard to get an exception to that rule, their example BUR, got grandfathered which I tried to explain to them posing as a fellow NIMBY but they insisted that their lawyer (who failed to file their case in the right court) told them they could. Luckily after going thru all of their legal challenges, they are mostly quiet
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Jerseyguy
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Re: New Jersey Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:41 am

In EWR, with Terminal 1 coming in a couple of years and all Terminal A airlines moving. Would it beneficial or possible to move United Express to move from A2 to B1 moving B1 (mostly Delta) to A3 with space for the Sky Lounge (or even to T1). This leaving UA in 2 rather than 3 terminals?

If UA really wanted to invest, it might even be possible to connect B2 and B1 post security.

Just a thought, it's a shame that there is a expansion and UA can't take advantage of it somehow. This is what happened I'm CLT, they have a brand new expansion in A (which is great BTW, I spent a 4 hour layover on AA and went to waste some time) and it's on the wrong side of the airport for AA
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tphuang
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Re: New Jersey Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:06 pm

I'm under the impression UA is getting more gates. But why would it be a shame if UA doesn't get more gate. Don't you want more competition at EWR?
 
airportlover
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:28 pm

tphuang wrote:
EWRandMDW wrote:
Regarding WN at EWR, they currently have 3 gates but since service began there seem to have been at most 18 daily departures averaging 6 per gate. I'm sure each gate can handle 1-2 more departures per day, but for some reason the total hasn't gone over 18. Is there a reason for that?


The reason is the result. They struggle with almost every route they launched there outside of PHX and STL. LGA is slightly more profitable for them so that's their main NYC station now. Just picking a day in late September, I see 17 flights for them (SAN seems to be cut + BNA 3x daily is added). That's pretty weak. I don't see what else they could even add at this point. EWR-Florida/MSY isn't going to work if MCO/FLL perfomed so badly. LAS isn't going to work if OAK is a struggle.

jplatts wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I think they will stick with LGA-DAL given the gate constraint issues at DAL. That one has been unprofitable based on the data i have so far, but with AS out, it will probably turn around by this year. EWR-OAK will be interesting to watch. I think it was launched to challenge AS at EWR-SJC, but so far the performance is dreadful. Not only that, JFK-OAK for B6 has also suffered. I don't think it will last for WN. They have been cutting routes that don't work out of EWR.


I agree that WN will stick with LGA-DAL, even though WN did previously consider serving DAL nonstop from EWR.

I agree that WN cutting EWR-OAK nonstop service might happen with WN having dropped other nonstop routes out of EWR.



The problem for WN in the NYC area is that it’s not a strong contender. UA, AA, DL, and B6 are all so much stronger, and there is so much choice. WN doesn’t really compete in the region, and it is not even considered by most people living in the area. New Yorkers would be shocked to hear just how large WN is in other parts of the US. That’s the root of their poor performance in the region.
 
jplatts
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Re: New Jersey Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:55 pm

tphuang wrote:
I'm under the impression UA is getting more gates. But why would it be a shame if UA doesn't get more gate. Don't you want more competition at EWR?


While I am in favor of more competition at EWR, I can understand WN and NK not adding any nonstop routes out of EWR that are likely to be unprofitable for WN or NK.

DL could add EWR-LAX and EWR-SEA nonstop service since (a) DL already has a large FF base in the NYC market due to its LGA and JFK hubs, (b) LGA perimeter restrictions prevent DL from serving LAX and SEA nonstop from LGA, and (c) LAX and SEA are the only DL hubs that DL doesn't currently serve nonstop from EWR.

Is DL likely to add EWR-LAX and/or EWR-SEA nonstop service?
 
EWRandMDW
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Re: New Jersey Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:12 pm

jplatts wrote:
tphuang wrote:

DL could add EWR-LAX and EWR-SEA nonstop service since (a) DL already has a large FF base in the NYC market due to its LGA and JFK hubs, (b) LGA perimeter restrictions prevent DL from serving LAX and SEA nonstop from LGA, and (c) LAX and SEA are the only DL hubs that DL doesn't currently serve nonstop from EWR.

Is DL likely to add EWR-LAX and/or EWR-SEA nonstop service?


EWR at one time had 3x 767-200 nonstops to LAX. This was back around 1990 +/-. They had a nice operation going at the airport, but then decided to concentrate on LGA and JFK. As for SEA, both UA and AS each already have 2-3 NS flights/day. I don't know how much loyalty to DL there is on the New Jersey side of the Hudson, but I doubt SEA will happen. LAX, maybe, but I'm not holding my breath.
 
Jerseyguy
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Re: New Jersey Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:24 pm

tphuang wrote:
I'm under the impression UA is getting more gates. But why would it be a shame if UA doesn't get more gate. Don't you want more competition at EWR?


Trust me, I'm no fan of UA or the US3 in general, I'm just thinking about UAs PAX. I do think there should be more competition and I'm glad that WN, B6 and AA are getting a new terminal, I dread flying WN from EWR, much prefer PHL
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N649DL
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Re: New Jersey Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:07 am

jplatts wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I'm under the impression UA is getting more gates. But why would it be a shame if UA doesn't get more gate. Don't you want more competition at EWR?


While I am in favor of more competition at EWR, I can understand WN and NK not adding any nonstop routes out of EWR that are likely to be unprofitable for WN or NK.

DL could add EWR-LAX and EWR-SEA nonstop service since (a) DL already has a large FF base in the NYC market due to its LGA and JFK hubs, (b) LGA perimeter restrictions prevent DL from serving LAX and SEA nonstop from LGA, and (c) LAX and SEA are the only DL hubs that DL doesn't currently serve nonstop from EWR.

Is DL likely to add EWR-LAX and/or EWR-SEA nonstop service?


I think both as EWR-LAX and EWR-SEA could eventually be launched by DL. They are starting EWR-BOS in the fall.

EWR-SEA and EWR-LAX only have competition with 2 airlines at this point UA & AS. And UA doesn't have much frequency on EWR-SEA these days anyway.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: New Jersey Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:08 pm

WN added EWR to BWI twice daily starting October 2nd. Interesting choice in my opinion, but it has not been served since UA dropped it. What do you think about WNs choice?
 
MaksFly
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Re: New Jersey Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:20 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
WN added EWR to BWI twice daily starting October 2nd. Interesting choice in my opinion, but it has not been served since UA dropped it. What do you think about WNs choice?


Seriously dumbfounded on this route. Are they trying to connect people?

Only a novice traveler would go EWR to BWI by plane when you can get there with far less hassles and in less time on the Amtrak... all while likely cheaper too.

Seriously...? lol.

I mean EWR to PHL would make more sense as the amtrak does not connect to airport and WN has a ton of presence at PHL... Unless this is a repositioning flight... this is kind of silly.
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: New Jersey Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:40 am

MaksFly wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
WN added EWR to BWI twice daily starting October 2nd. Interesting choice in my opinion, but it has not been served since UA dropped it. What do you think about WNs choice?

I mean EWR to PHL would make more sense as the amtrak does not connect to airport and WN has a ton of presence at PHL...

I mean... WN's presence at BWI is about 6x that of their presence at PHL... I'm sure this route is aimed mostly at connections southward and is taking advantage of UA leaving the route. I don't follow the logic that a flight half the distance with fewer connection opportunities would be a better route.
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MaksFly
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Re: New Jersey Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:34 am

BWIAirport wrote:
MaksFly wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
WN added EWR to BWI twice daily starting October 2nd. Interesting choice in my opinion, but it has not been served since UA dropped it. What do you think about WNs choice?

I mean EWR to PHL would make more sense as the amtrak does not connect to airport and WN has a ton of presence at PHL...

I mean... WN's presence at BWI is about 6x that of their presence at PHL... I'm sure this route is aimed mostly at connections southward and is taking advantage of UA leaving the route. I don't follow the logic that a flight half the distance with fewer connection opportunities would be a better route.


Sure.

What I mean is that getting from Newark to Philly is a pain in the butt, sometimes worse than getting to Baltimore. Furthermore, if going between the two airports, there is no direct train. You would need to change trains in center city.

Between EWR and BWI, it is a one seat ride on the Amtrak.

I am not 100% on WN so not sure where they are in connections but I would think most flying out of EWR would want non-stop.
 
EWRandMDW
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Re: New Jersey Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:04 pm

MaksFly wrote:
I am not 100% on WN so not sure where they are in connections but I would think most flying out of EWR would want non-stop.


My family and I used to live in Somerset Cty NJ and now reside in Western Cook Cty IL. When we travel anywhere back east we almost always take WN. Flying from/back to MDW is very convenient for us and WN has never let us down. When going to visit relatives in NJ or when I travel on business to northern NJ I make a point to take WN to EWR. Flights seem to always be at least 3/4 full, and often there a mere handful of empty seats. Many wonder where the loyalty to WN comes from. It comes from places like Chicago, St. Louis, Kansas City, Dallas, etc. People boarding WN at EWR are most likely flying back to their home airports. Maybe over time NJ-based passengers will realize what those in the mid-west and west have already figured out that WN is a great option.

MaksFly mentions that most flying out of EWR would want non-stop. That's true, except you can't get everywhere non-stop from EWR. Need to go to BHM? No non-stop. How about LIT? No non-stop. Perhaps ABQ? No non-stop. But you can there by connecting at BWI on WN. Or, if you go DL you have to navigate ATL or on UA either IAD or ORD or DEN or IAH.

Before anyways asks, I do NOT work for WN or in any capacity for any airline. But I do fly fairly regularly and I do take note of what does and doesn't make for me positive experiences as a passenger.
 
tphuang
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Re: New Jersey Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:42 pm

This BWI-EWR is just WN's latest attempt to find a way to find routes out of EWR without haemorrhaging money. They've already cut MCO, FLL and IND just this year. OAK and SAN are doing very poorly. So now they've settled on the option of connecting their biggest stations to EWR on top of LGA. BNA at least makes sense to me. BWI makes very little sense. There is no O&D if you consider how close the two airports are and how often EWR gets delayed. This is not Texas, how wants to risk a 2 hour delay at EWR when you can take the train there for the same time?

Everywhere else, you can fly to vast majority of those places direct. So unless you are just a WN loyalists (very few around EWR), you are only connecting at BWI if it's really cheap.

As for non-stop flights to BHM, ABQ, LIT, you can just drive to BWI to fly out of there or connect at ATL or CLT. There are far more options connecting at ATL/CLT than at BWI.

To me, this is WN trying to use its 3 gates and possibly preparing for EWR reinstating slots.
 
Jerseyguy
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Re: New Jersey Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:19 am

tphuang wrote:
As for non-stop flights to BHM, ABQ, LIT, you can just drive to BWI to fly out of there or connect at ATL or CLT. To me, this is WN trying to use its 3 gates and possibly preparing for EWR reinstating slots.


Drive from Northern New Jersey to BWI for a flight? It would likely be faster and easier to connect there. If I ever suggest to any of my friends and family to fly out of BWI. I'd better have a really good deal and I live 40 minutes closer to BWI than Newark (Newark to BWI takes about 3 hours.plus any traffic). But yes, I'd say they are likely preemptively trying to hold on to their "slots" .
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Nicknuzzii
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Re: New Jersey Aviation Thread - 2019

Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:32 am

 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: New Jersey Aviation Thread - 2019

Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:20 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
WN added EWR to BWI twice daily starting October 2nd. Interesting choice in my opinion, but it has not been served since UA dropped it. What do you think about WNs choice?


I don't get it either. At least for UA dropping BWI-EWR, it's to add more mainline service or service that can be on at least a CRJ7/E170-sized plane. That UA Express route was for feed. WN would have been better off going trans-con with an EWR-LAX service. WN already flies long sectors out of EWR to DEN, PHX, SAN, and OAK (daily except for SAN which is weekdays only) on the B738.
 
Jerseyguy
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Re: New Jersey aviation Thread- 2019

Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:31 am

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
As far as TTN goes, there was a post about the expansion of the terminal there a while back. I posted that I picture TTN becoming like BUR, LGB, or SNA: NIMBY's readying themselves for the apocalypse if there was even one millimeter of expansion of the terminal, with fleets of attorneys ready to take on the airport and entire state of New Jersey over any kind of expansion, crying into the cameras, "won't someone PLEASE think of the children?" or something equally stupid. Does anyone know if this is the case?


I came across the video of the meeting that the county had regarding the new terminal (https://vimeo.com/314261906) and it showed the comments of some of the NIMBYs and this women from some advocate group (it didn't sound like she lived in the area) said something fairly outlandish thats to that effect "At your current operating level surrounding areas are under seige. Your purposed improvements will pave the way for unlimited air traffic. Once the improvements are made there is no regulation to limit a huge traffic expansion. It will devastate our region. Currently we have jet fuel and pollutants falling in our homes, in our water and on our land without any measurement having been done over the past 20 years of the environmental impact.We have plummeting property values. Once peaceful neighborhoods sound and feel like war zones due to high volumes of planes traveling at all hours of the day and night" (as close to verbatim as I could get).

So lets recap
1. The current operating levels have the surrounding areas "under seige"
2. The purposed improvements will pave the way for "unlimited air traffic"
(there are going to be 800 flights out of a 4 gate terminal?? She should share her secrets as I'm sure gate constrained airports would love to find a way even to add 50% more flights)
3. Peaceful neighborhoods now sound and feel like war zones
4. high volumes of planes at all hours of the day and night
(Wow, I didn't know we had flights departing at all hours? Is the 3am Departure to MCO new??)

One other women said that without a cap in the number of flights, Trenton could turn into Newark :sarcastic:
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Jerseyguy
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Re: New Jersey Aviation Thread - 2019

Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:19 am

Frontier just announced new service out of Trenton, winter seasonal service to Sarasota (SRQ). 4X Weekly (MON/WED/FRI/SAT)

Frontier also increases frequency on the following routes for Winter.
Charlotte Douglas International Airport (CLT) From 3 flights a week to 4
Raleigh-Durham International Airport (RDU) From 3 flights a week to 4
Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport (ATL) From 4 flights a week to daily
Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport (FLL) From 4 flights a week to daily
Fort Myers International Airport (RSW) From 5 flights a week to daily
Palm Beach International Airport (PBI) From 7 flights a week to 10
Orlando International Airport (MCO) From 11 flights a week to 14 (twice daily)

https://mercerme.com/frontier-airlines- ... on-mercer/
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Nicknuzzii
Topic Author
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Re: New Jersey Aviation Thread - 2019

Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:50 pm

Nice expansion for F9 from TTN for sure, the airport is still definitely underserved. I think F9 shoudl attempt to bring back some of the earlier routes it dropped before it established its self at TTN.
 
Jerseyguy
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Re: New Jersey Aviation Thread - 2019

Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:00 pm

With Southwest pulling out of Newark, if Spirit doesn't pick up the slack or Frontier doesn't start flying to EWR, fares will go up and thats good for TTN. I can't wait for the new terminal to open so that Trenton can fully realize its potential. That of course is 2-3 or more years down the road. Moxy would be perfect with their A220s and their ability to travel outside of TTN's pseudo perimeter (1200nm due to the 6006ft runway). The key to Trenton's success is nonstop service and being more than just the airport you fly to Florida from. In addition being able to fly on something other than a ULCC would be a great thing too.
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