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EmoticonsAllDay
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Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:21 am

Cleaning crews discovered a handgun in the cockpit of a Delta Airlines aircraft in Atlanta. The incident occurred on February 18th.

"Delta ground crews followed procedures and turned over to law enforcement an item that was found in the flight deck after the flight’s arrival. Delta is working with relevant authorities in their handling of this case and will conduct its own review." - Delta

"TSA is aware of an incident at Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport involving agency-issued equipment. Although we are not at liberty to discuss specific details, we can say that the public was never in harm’s way." - TSA


Source: https://simpleflying.com/delta-pilot-gun/amp/

Though there is no restriction for the pilots carrying gun in the cockpit for the purpose of saftey, this incident is alarming as there is no information on why it was carried in the first place.
 
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thewizbizman
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:29 am

How handguns in the flight deck are governed is by the FFDO (Federal Flight Deck Officer) program. Basically pilots can apply to become deputized in the flight deck and receive air marshal training. They are then issued a government owned handgun.

This pilot must have left his issued firearm on the aircraft. There have been incidents like this in the past.
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sealevel
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:59 am

Huh? You bring one on and then forget it? Nice job...
 
kiowa
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:10 pm

He may not have been an FFDO
 
Airontario
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:49 pm

The idea of any crew member having a gun on their person on an airplane is outrageous.

However, just to humour those gun nuts, why would a pilot need one?

Shouldn't the purser be the person to carry it? If any violent incident was to happen on an airplane, it would 99.9% happen in the cabin. The first thing that would happen would be total lock down of the flight deck, rendering a gun there useless no?
 
airtran737
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:56 pm

Airontario wrote:
The idea of any crew member having a gun on their person on an airplane is outrageous.

However, just to humour those gun nuts, why would a pilot need one?

Shouldn't the purser be the person to carry it? If any violent incident was to happen on an airplane, it would 99.9% happen in the cabin. The first thing that would happen would be total lock down of the flight deck, rendering a gun there useless no?


Clearly you’re not a pilot. We have the ability to have a gun because we are the last line of defense when someone tries to breech our cockpit.

The purser? Are you serious? The last thing I want on my airplane is an 83 year old woman with a gun trying to defend my flight deck. I’m sorry but a gun in the cabin is a terrible idea and would never pass.
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ZBBYLW
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:12 pm

airtran737 wrote:
Airontario wrote:
The idea of any crew member having a gun on their person on an airplane is outrageous.

However, just to humour those gun nuts, why would a pilot need one?

Shouldn't the purser be the person to carry it? If any violent incident was to happen on an airplane, it would 99.9% happen in the cabin. The first thing that would happen would be total lock down of the flight deck, rendering a gun there useless no?


Clearly you’re not a pilot. We have the ability to have a gun because we are the last line of defense when someone tries to breech our cockpit.
.


I think this is an American gun mentality vs a last line of defense argument.

The best way to keep the flight deck secure is to follow all the protocols in place. We have the ability to keep anyone out of the flight deck. What are you going to do if someone is hell bent on taking over the airplane? Open the door with your pistol to try and be a hero? My 2 cents your efforts would be much better keeping the door closed and land the plane asap. I wont talk about the security measures in place, but having the crew armed would do absolutely no good except maybe for the peice of mind of the pro gun mentality only present in the USA. Though it may decrease saftey (I remember one pilot shooting through the side of the airplane.)
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kiowa
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:13 pm

Airontario wrote:
The idea of any crew member having a gun on their person on an airplane is outrageous.

However, just to humour those gun nuts, why would a pilot need one?

Shouldn't the purser be the person to carry it? If any violent incident was to happen on an airplane, it would 99.9% happen in the cabin. The first thing that would happen would be total lock down of the flight deck, rendering a gun there useless no?


Pilots trained as FFDOs are a much better program than random air marshalls. I would also much rather have an FFDO on board than a small town cop or postal inspector carrying a firearm.
 
KLDC10
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:17 pm

airtran737 wrote:
Airontario wrote:
The idea of any crew member having a gun on their person on an airplane is outrageous.

However, just to humour those gun nuts, why would a pilot need one?

Shouldn't the purser be the person to carry it? If any violent incident was to happen on an airplane, it would 99.9% happen in the cabin. The first thing that would happen would be total lock down of the flight deck, rendering a gun there useless no?


Clearly you’re not a pilot. We have the ability to have a gun because we are the last line of defense when someone tries to breech our cockpit.

The purser? Are you serious? The last thing I want on my airplane is an 83 year old woman with a gun trying to defend my flight deck. I’m sorry but a gun in the cabin is a terrible idea and would never pass.


Plus, the cockpit door is locked during flight, meaning that the firearm remains secure throughout. It would be absurd to keep a firearm in a cabin full of passengers.
Pilots who carry firearms go through extensive training. Clearly, this guy made a mistake, but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. If someone tries to breech the cockpit, the Pilot is able to react. It is indeed the last line of defense, and an effective one.
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EvanWSFO
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:35 pm

ZBBYLW wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
Airontario wrote:
The idea of any crew member having a gun on their person on an airplane is outrageous.

However, just to humour those gun nuts, why would a pilot need one?

Shouldn't the purser be the person to carry it? If any violent incident was to happen on an airplane, it would 99.9% happen in the cabin. The first thing that would happen would be total lock down of the flight deck, rendering a gun there useless no?


Clearly you’re not a pilot. We have the ability to have a gun because we are the last line of defense when someone tries to breech our cockpit.
.


I think this is an American gun mentality vs a last line of defense argument.

The best way to keep the flight deck secure is to follow all the protocols in place. We have the ability to keep anyone out of the flight deck. What are you going to do if someone is hell bent on taking over the airplane? Open the door with your pistol to try and be a hero? My 2 cents your efforts would be much better keeping the door closed and land the plane asap. I wont talk about the security measures in place, but having the crew armed would do absolutely no good except maybe for the peice of mind of the pro gun mentality only present in the USA. Though it may decrease saftey (I remember one pilot shooting through the side of the airplane.)


It is indeed a mindset here in the U.S. After a mass shooting, there will always be that a "good guy" with a gun could have stopped it. True maybe, but there would likely be collateral damage along the way.
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:41 pm

Guns on planes. What could possibly go wrong? :crazy:

airtran737 wrote:
I’m sorry but a gun in the cabin is a terrible idea and would never pass.


But they're there thanks to FAMs. They're just as incompetent as this pilot appears to have been and leave their guns in the loos and show them to FAs, etc.
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Airontario
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:42 pm

airtran737 wrote:
Airontario wrote:
The idea of any crew member having a gun on their person on an airplane is outrageous.

However, just to humour those gun nuts, why would a pilot need one?

Shouldn't the purser be the person to carry it? If any violent incident was to happen on an airplane, it would 99.9% happen in the cabin. The first thing that would happen would be total lock down of the flight deck, rendering a gun there useless no?


Clearly you’re not a pilot. We have the ability to have a gun because we are the last line of defense when someone tries to breech our cockpit.

The purser? Are you serious? The last thing I want on my airplane is an 83 year old woman with a gun trying to defend my flight deck. I’m sorry but a gun in the cabin is a terrible idea and would never pass.


Obviously I'm not serious. I don't think anyone should have any sort of weapon on an airplane. However I don't understand how a pilot with a gun is going to have any positive affect on any situation arising in the cabin. Pilots should do what they do best, fly the airplane and land it as quickly as possible. Let the professionals on the ground deal with the weapons.
 
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United787
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:45 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
It is indeed a mindset here in the U.S. After a mass shooting, there will always be that a "good guy" with a gun could have stopped it.


Except that it rarely happens.

Ironic that the pilot having the gun thought he would make he and his passengers safer but instead through human error, he actually made it more dangerous for them.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:50 pm

ZBBYLW wrote:
[

The best way to keep the flight deck secure is to follow all the protocols in place. We have the ability to keep anyone out of the flight deck. What are you going to do if someone is hell bent on taking over the airplane? Open the door with your pistol to try and be a hero? )


A beverage cart with a 60 'something' year old standing in-between that and the flight deck is a joke. That will not stop several potential hijackers from gaining entry to and taking over a plane. And there are no guarantees the pilot or co-pilot will be able to retrieve said gun in time and stop the threat. Heck, half the time the pilot stops to make small talk with the flight attendant, leaving the flight deck door open longer than it needs to be.
 
EmoticonsAllDay
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:54 pm

I have no idea why there has to be a gun at all in a plane provided all the rigorous security measures before boarding the aircraft especially in the US with TSA. I have never heard about guns in planes in the east particularly in the Asia.
 
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:57 pm

United787 wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
It is indeed a mindset here in the U.S. After a mass shooting, there will always be that a "good guy" with a gun could have stopped it.


Except that it rarely happens.

Ironic that the pilot having the gun thought he would make he and his passengers safer but instead through human error, he actually made it more dangerous for them.


Kind of reminds me of this United pilot from a few years ago...He felt it necessary to intentionally flush bullets down the toilet of his plane.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/united-air ... -on-plane/

DALLAS - A United Airlines captain threw bullets in a trash bin accessible to passengers and later flushed them down a toilet on board a flight that he was piloting to Germany.
Last edited by jumbojet on Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
catiii
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:57 pm

Airontario wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
Airontario wrote:
The idea of any crew member having a gun on their person on an airplane is outrageous.

However, just to humour those gun nuts, why would a pilot need one?

Shouldn't the purser be the person to carry it? If any violent incident was to happen on an airplane, it would 99.9% happen in the cabin. The first thing that would happen would be total lock down of the flight deck, rendering a gun there useless no?


Clearly you’re not a pilot. We have the ability to have a gun because we are the last line of defense when someone tries to breech our cockpit.

The purser? Are you serious? The last thing I want on my airplane is an 83 year old woman with a gun trying to defend my flight deck. I’m sorry but a gun in the cabin is a terrible idea and would never pass.


Obviously I'm not serious. I don't think anyone should have any sort of weapon on an airplane. However I don't understand how a pilot with a gun is going to have any positive affect on any situation arising in the cabin. Pilots should do what they do best, fly the airplane and land it as quickly as possible. Let the professionals on the ground deal with the weapons.


You've missed the whole point though. The idea isn't for a pilot to have a positive affect on a situation arising in the cabin, it's to be armed to protect the flight deck in the event of a breach so that the airplane cannot be commandeered and used as a weapon. Completely different philosophy.
 
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:58 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
ZBBYLW wrote:
airtran737 wrote:

Clearly you’re not a pilot. We have the ability to have a gun because we are the last line of defense when someone tries to breech our cockpit.
.


I think this is an American gun mentality vs a last line of defense argument.

The best way to keep the flight deck secure is to follow all the protocols in place. We have the ability to keep anyone out of the flight deck. What are you going to do if someone is hell bent on taking over the airplane? Open the door with your pistol to try and be a hero? My 2 cents your efforts would be much better keeping the door closed and land the plane asap. I wont talk about the security measures in place, but having the crew armed would do absolutely no good except maybe for the peice of mind of the pro gun mentality only present in the USA. Though it may decrease saftey (I remember one pilot shooting through the side of the airplane.)


It is indeed a mindset here in the U.S. After a mass shooting, there will always be that a "good guy" with a gun could have stopped it. True maybe, but there would likely be collateral damage along the way.


Yes and I am one of the good guys that is almost always armed. It is however worth to note that with most of those mass shootings it seems that there aren't any "good guys" around to effectively stop the threat. I take my responsibility of having a gun very seriously, I am on the shooting range weekly and practice as much as it takes to ensure that I hit my intended target and I won't hesitate on using the gun. I also see why a pilot would choose to have a gun in the cockpit or with him/her for self-defense. I am sure they take their responsibility as seriously as I am.

On the flip side, I also advocate for stricter gun regulations, laws and control. I advocate for better and periodic mental health screening and having to register your firearms.

This pilot has clearly made a mistake and I am not sure why the gun was out in the open to begin with. The door to the cockpit is designed in a way that will hold back a would-be attacker quite some time; plenty to get your gun ready. There is no need to have it sitting around the cockpit.
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:59 pm

EmoticonsAllDay wrote:
I have no idea why there has to be a gun at all in a plane provided all the rigorous security measures before boarding the aircraft especially in the US with TSA. I have never heard about guns in planes in the east particularly in the Asia.


Because well over 90% of things that are prohibited by TSA make it thru security. TSA is nothing more than a security theater.
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catiii
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:00 pm

jumbojet wrote:
ZBBYLW wrote:
[

The best way to keep the flight deck secure is to follow all the protocols in place. We have the ability to keep anyone out of the flight deck. What are you going to do if someone is hell bent on taking over the airplane? Open the door with your pistol to try and be a hero? )


A beverage cart with a 60 'something' year old standing in-between that and the flight deck is a joke. That will not stop several potential hijackers from gaining entry to and taking over a plane. And there are no guarantees the pilot or co-pilot will be able to retrieve said gun in time and stop the threat. Heck, half the time the pilot stops to make small talk with the flight attendant, leaving the flight deck door open longer than it needs to be.


What about a beverage cart with a 40 something former NYPD cop? Or fireman?
 
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falstaff
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:08 pm

Airontario wrote:
We have the ability to have a gun because we are the last line of defense when someone tries to breech our cockpit.


Makes sense to me. If the pilot(s) want to carry a firearm all all for it. It is within the realm of possibility that somebody who wants to take over an aircraft has a gun. The cockpit crew should be equally armed. A terrorist with a gun who breaches the cockpit and finds no resistance equals nobody has chance of coming out alive. A pilot with a gun to match the terrorist equals Everybody, but the terrorist has a chance to walk away. I would take that chance. The worst has happened already and it can't get any worse. Best case scenario is the pilot kills the terrorist and the worst case scenario is terrorist kills the pilot and take over the plane. Everybody dies anyway lets give the pilots a chance.

EvanWSFO wrote:
It is indeed a mindset here in the U.S. After a mass shooting, there will always be that a "good guy" with a gun could have stopped it. True maybe, but there would likely be collateral damage along the way.


Mass shootings tend to take place in places that are gun free zones. I am a high school teacher and I am not allowed to match a potential killer. I'm not allowed to carry a knife or a gun (neither is the bad guy, but he obviously doesn't care). If I could carry maybe I would be effective against the shooter maybe not, but I prefer die standing up like a man and not hiding under a desk like a child.

KLDC10 wrote:
Pilots who carry firearms go through extensive training. Clearly, this guy made a mistake, but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.
Mistakes happen and you can't fault everybody. There was a federal agent who had a full auto rifle stolen from his unlocked car in Detroit several years ago. Should federal agents not be allowed to use that kind of weapon because one guy made a mistake?

Airontario wrote:
The idea of any crew member having a gun on their person on an airplane is outrageous.


I find the idea that anyone would want to hijack an aircraft outrageous, but it has happened. Better to be prepared than to not be. Airline pilots train for all kinds in inflight emergencies that may never happen in their career, but they happened to somebody or else they wouldn't train for them. A pilot needs to be ready for anything that may happen in flight.

It's not uncommon for armed railroad police to onboard intercity passenger trains in the US. I have seen armed Amtrak police officers on trains many time over the years. In US cities it isn't uncommon to see armed local transit police or railroad police commuter trains, streetcars and subways. This isn't new; its been going on for at least 100 years. Back in the days when mail was sorted and carried in railway post offices there would be at least one armed postmaster on the train. I don't see why aircraft should be any different.
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Oliver2020
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:14 pm

EmoticonsAllDay wrote:
I have no idea why there has to be a gun at all in a plane provided all the rigorous security measures before boarding the aircraft especially in the US with TSA. I have never heard about guns in planes in the east particularly in the Asia.


There was a cop last year from Santa Monica I believe that flew to Taiwan with a gun that she accidentally forgot and went through TSA at LAX.

Just a few weeks ago a regular passenger went through ATL TSA with a gun that they accidentally forgot as well.

In both instances the only reason anyone found out was because the passengers got scared when they realized they had the guns on their person once THROUGH TSA. How many instances do you think happened where someone got through and didn't mention it for fear of prosecution?
 
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falstaff
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:23 pm

jumbojet wrote:
A United Airlines captain threw bullets in a trash bin accessible to passengers and later flushed them down a toilet on board a flight that he was piloting to Germany.


Flushing them down the john wasn't a good idea. But tossing them out in the trash may have been the best available option. Bullets without a gun aren't particularly useful. For somebody to use them for something bad they would have to know they were there to begin with. Judging by what gets tossed away in random garbage cans a few bullets aren't a big deal. People toss out all kinds of hazardous materials in household and business trash all the time. I could toss a car battery, a jar of mercury and a box of ammunition in my garbage and the collector would never know it happened.

United787 wrote:
he actually made it more dangerous for them.


How? There were mo passengers on the plane when the gun was found. The general public generally aren't wondering around the cockpit and no passengers knew it was there, until after the fact (they only know because its been published). If a cleaner hadn't found it another pilot probably would have. Most people are honest law abiding people are aren't just going to start shooting people because they found a gun.

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Because well over 90% of things that are prohibited by TSA make it thru security. TSA is nothing more than a security theater.

That also makes the assumption that the bad guy would try and bring it in through a TSA checkpoint. I would think an international terrorist plans things better than that. These guys usually work in networks and would likely have an inside man at the airport, in catering, in security, or the like.
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777PHX
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:37 pm

fpetrutiu wrote:

This pilot has clearly made a mistake and I am not sure why the gun was out in the open to begin with. The door to the cockpit is designed in a way that will hold back a would-be attacker quite some time; plenty to get your gun ready. There is no need to have it sitting around the cockpit.


The FFDO protocol involves putting the gun on your hip in a holster after the cockpit door has been closed.

FFDO is more security theater and doesn't serve any real purpose outside of letting people live out their John Wayne cowboy fantasies. The take rate for becoming an FFDO is incredibly low and most pilots I know think it's sort of a joke. And if that gun accidentally leaves your possession, you can kiss your career goodbye.
 
Woodreau
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:50 pm

Airontario wrote:
However I don't understand how a pilot with a gun is going to have any positive affect on any situation arising in the cabin. Pilots should do what they do best, fly the airplane and land it as quickly as possible. Let the professionals on the ground deal with the weapons.


The firearm on the flight deck is not for changing any outcome in the cabin. In that unfortunate event, the cabin and everyone in the cabin are on their own. The firearm is for the possibility the flight deck is breached even with all the current measures in place.

EmoticonsAllDay wrote:
I have no idea why there has to be a gun at all in a plane provided all the rigorous security measures before boarding the aircraft especially in the US with TSA. I have never heard about guns in planes in the east particularly in the Asia.


What rigorous security measures are you talking about? There is not any more security on an airplane or the "secure" side of the airport terminal than there is boarding a bus or train or boat.

I actually flew with more FFDOs a few years ago than today. Today it's actually rare to fly with an FFDO, Back then (a few years ago), most FFDOs (the ones I flew with) became FFDOs because they didn't want to deal with the hassle of going through TSA security. Today because most flight crews don't go through TSA screening, when I fly with an FFDO, I find out he doesn't even have his issued weapon. "I thought you were an FFDO, Where is your sidearm? I didn't bring it because it's such a hassle to deal with TSA to bring the firearm."
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Skywatcher
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:16 pm

I wonder what the FFDO program costs and how many times they've actually engaged a hijacker? I am a foreigner so won't lecture Americans on their gun culture (I grew up shooting guns in Canada and am not afraid of them) but it appears to me that much of it has been enabled by an incredibly effective gun industry/lobby. This has been going on since the nation was birthed by warfare and shows no sign of abating.
 
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:18 pm

airtran737 wrote:
Airontario wrote:
The idea of any crew member having a gun on their person on an airplane is outrageous.

However, just to humour those gun nuts, why would a pilot need one?

Shouldn't the purser be the person to carry it? If any violent incident was to happen on an airplane, it would 99.9% happen in the cabin. The first thing that would happen would be total lock down of the flight deck, rendering a gun there useless no?


Clearly you’re not a pilot. We have the ability to have a gun because we are the last line of defense when someone tries to breech our cockpit.

The purser? Are you serious? The last thing I want on my airplane is an 83 year old woman with a gun trying to defend my flight deck. I’m sorry but a gun in the cabin is a terrible idea and would never pass.

My life is already in the hands of the pilots. I want them as Sheepdogs.

This was a major error. But hijackings are now to kill large numbers of people. The only guns in the cabin should be Marshalls.

I'm sorry, I design defenses in aircraft, so I know how to get around the concepts. A locked door only delays. e.g., the door on my home safe weighs 100kg, is maybe 33% of the area of an aircraft cockpit door, and a professional thief would be through it in under 25 minutes through the weak point. But as it is made of 3 materials, two very different sets of tools would be required. Not with an aircraft door. Pilots aren't ninjas, they need a tool (gun) to prevent another kamakazi attack.

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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:25 pm

catiii wrote:
Airontario wrote:
airtran737 wrote:

Clearly you’re not a pilot. We have the ability to have a gun because we are the last line of defense when someone tries to breech our cockpit.

The purser? Are you serious? The last thing I want on my airplane is an 83 year old woman with a gun trying to defend my flight deck. I’m sorry but a gun in the cabin is a terrible idea and would never pass.


Obviously I'm not serious. I don't think anyone should have any sort of weapon on an airplane. However I don't understand how a pilot with a gun is going to have any positive affect on any situation arising in the cabin. Pilots should do what they do best, fly the airplane and land it as quickly as possible. Let the professionals on the ground deal with the weapons.


You've missed the whole point though. The idea isn't for a pilot to have a positive affect on a situation arising in the cabin, it's to be armed to protect the flight deck in the event of a breach so that the airplane cannot be commandeered and used as a weapon. Completely different philosophy.


Thank you for clarifying for the "masses" that glom onto rhetoric. Who knows if a pilot with a gun would successfully prevent a breach but a pilot without a gun definitely won't. It's a last line of defense.

The idea is not for the pilot to burst into the cabin like he's James Bond, take out the terrorist and celebrate with the hot FA in the lavatory. The whole idea is to prevent a 9/11 use of the aircraft. If the terrorists manage to kill every passenger and FA, as long as they don't breach the cockpit you avoid a tragic mass murder of 200 people from becoming a national disaster that kills thousands.
 
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falstaff
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:49 pm

Skywatcher wrote:
I wonder what the FFDO program costs and how many times they've actually engaged a hijacker?


To my knowledge they have never engaged a hijacker because they never have had an opportunity to. I've known plenty of police officers who never shot at anyone, but they still carry a gun because of what can happen. The fact nothing has happened in the past doesn't mean nothing will happen in the future.

Woodreau wrote:
There is not any more security on an airplane or the "secure" side of the airport terminal than there is boarding a bus or train or boat.

I agree that TSA is security theater, but the airport terminal in much more secure than a railroad station in the US. I wouldn't want to try and bring my gun through TSA security as I would likely get caught (They get them from time to time). I could get on any train in the US without even passing through a metal detector. Some employees or suppliers could get a gun in the terminal, but its unlikely a passenger would. Anyone could carry a gun onto an intercity passenger train, in the US, with zero difficulty.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
GDB
Posts: 13893
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:08 pm

777PHX wrote:
fpetrutiu wrote:

This pilot has clearly made a mistake and I am not sure why the gun was out in the open to begin with. The door to the cockpit is designed in a way that will hold back a would-be attacker quite some time; plenty to get your gun ready. There is no need to have it sitting around the cockpit.


The FFDO protocol involves putting the gun on your hip in a holster after the cockpit door has been closed.

FFDO is more security theater and doesn't serve any real purpose outside of letting people live out their John Wayne cowboy fantasies. The take rate for becoming an FFDO is incredibly low and most pilots I know think it's sort of a joke. And if that gun accidentally leaves your possession, you can kiss your career goodbye.


If the weak point here IS the TSA, then that needs sorting out. Given some of the bizarre rhetoric around guns, your 'John Wayne Cowboy Fantasy' says it all, John Wayne being so tough he dodged the draft in WW2.
 
boilerla
Posts: 421
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:09 pm

falstaff wrote:
I agree that TSA is security theater, but the airport terminal in much more secure than a railroad station in the US. I wouldn't want to try and bring my gun through TSA security as I would likely get caught (They get them from time to time). I could get on any train in the US without even passing through a metal detector. Some employees or suppliers could get a gun in the terminal, but its unlikely a passenger would. Anyone could carry a gun onto an intercity passenger train, in the US, with zero difficulty.

Dunno how trains entered the picture, but if you're worried about security just don't go into public places in general. There's far more people at American Airline's ticketing/checkin-in area in DFW on Thanksgiving Sunday then there are on an A380, and nobody has gone through security at that point. Just saying you don't need to be on a mode of transportation for anything bad to happen.

Are guns in the cockpit allowed on international flights or only domestic?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:20 pm

falstaff wrote:

To my knowledge they have never engaged a hijacker because they never have had an opportunity to. I've known plenty of police officers who never shot at anyone, but they still carry a gun because of what can happen. The fact nothing has happened in the past doesn't mean nothing will happen in the future.

The majority of police officers never use a gun.
I've been in two attempted muggings where because a friend of mine was legally carrying, no mugging. No gun pulled, the crooks sensed to go elsewhere. That doesn't make a statistic.

I had two friends as SWAT snippers. Like most SWAT snippers, aged out (at 45 too old for SWAT) without pulling the trigger.

Too many people are afraid of guns. Why? This pilot made a big mistake. I feel more comfortable when I'm around good people with guns. It is easier to kill someone with a car or truck and gun owners today have to be lawyers, so they know how to use weapons.

To me one good person is worth dozens of criminals.

Most of my police officer friends are going to retire with only one ever pulling a trigger in the line of duty. That was during a nasty SWAT arrest where the gang banger drug dealer/slaver (let us call prostitution what it really is, rarely are they voluntary) sent a pit bull to attack. No more pit bull.

History has many lessons on why I am pro-gun. I know of only people trying to do criminal great harm to good people who have been hurt by guns. I pulled a gun out of a friends mouth (a very awkward do you want to hang out day). But the people I personally know who committed suicide used: rope, sleeping pills, a jumper, and many with opiates.

Amererica's problem is the gun laws to keep guns away from criminals aren't enforced.

I know several neighbors who made citizen arrests during the 1992 riots. If you ever live through a collapse in social order, it changes you perspective on the danger of civil order breakdown. For three days it was every neighborhood for itself.

I want pilot Sheepdogs protecting us. I personally know people who died 9/11. Thankfully, I know far more who were hungover and we're so late going to work they lived.

Lightsaber
I cannot wait to get vaccinated to live again! Warning: I simulated that it takes 50%+ vaccinated to protect the vaccinated and 75%+ vaccinated to protect the vac-hesitant.
 
Flaps
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Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2000 1:11 pm

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:20 pm

United787 wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
It is indeed a mindset here in the U.S. After a mass shooting, there will always be that a "good guy" with a gun could have stopped it.


Except that it rarely happens.

Ironic that the pilot having the gun thought he would make he and his passengers safer but instead through human error, he actually made it more dangerous for them.


It rarely happens because most mass shootings occur in "gun free" zones. Why do you think these targets are chosen in the first place? Gun free zones are only observed by legal firearm owners that pose no threat. Criminals follow no such rules. When such incidents occur outside of so called "gun free" zones there is often an intervention. Nothing like telegraphing to a would be shooter the places they would be most likely to be successful.

This pilot made a huge mistake though and should be disciplined accordingly.
 
airtran737
Posts: 3487
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:30 pm

scbriml wrote:
Guns on planes. What could possibly go wrong? :crazy:

airtran737 wrote:
I’m sorry but a gun in the cabin is a terrible idea and would never pass.


But they're there thanks to FAMs. They're just as incompetent as this pilot appears to have been and leave their guns in the loos and show them to FAs, etc.


I’m specifically referring to the purser having a gun. I’m well aware of the FAM’s.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:36 pm

Flaps wrote:
It rarely happens because most mass shootings occur in "gun free" zones.


The concept of gun free zones has got to be the biggest irony of this decade, most useless idea of all time.
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

You can sanction people, but you can't sanction style
 
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OA940
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:42 pm

ZBBYLW wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
Airontario wrote:
The idea of any crew member having a gun on their person on an airplane is outrageous.

However, just to humour those gun nuts, why would a pilot need one?

Shouldn't the purser be the person to carry it? If any violent incident was to happen on an airplane, it would 99.9% happen in the cabin. The first thing that would happen would be total lock down of the flight deck, rendering a gun there useless no?


Clearly you’re not a pilot. We have the ability to have a gun because we are the last line of defense when someone tries to breech our cockpit.
.


I think this is an American gun mentality vs a last line of defense argument.

The best way to keep the flight deck secure is to follow all the protocols in place. We have the ability to keep anyone out of the flight deck. What are you going to do if someone is hell bent on taking over the airplane? Open the door with your pistol to try and be a hero? My 2 cents your efforts would be much better keeping the door closed and land the plane asap. I wont talk about the security measures in place, but having the crew armed would do absolutely no good except maybe for the peice of mind of the pro gun mentality only present in the USA. Though it may decrease saftey (I remember one pilot shooting through the side of the airplane.)


Precisely. Also what happens if that pilot happens to be a fan of Germanwings 9525's or SilkAir 185's pilots? Because then the problem is in the cockpit, and the other pilot can't do anything about it. I'd rather fly the plane myself than have a stranger with a gun at the controls.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
nagpaw
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:32 pm

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:42 pm

Just curious, since perhaps I missed it in the articles. Where exactly does it say that it was a pilot’s gun?
 
Kestrel333
Posts: 58
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:29 pm

How about...you know...no one has a gun?
 
kalvado
Posts: 2970
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:00 pm

We are comparing few quite improbable scenarios and try to guess which one is more likely to happen.
9/11 was not repeated in 18 years since that date; and few, if any, hijacking attempts did occur.
Gun in a cockpit did cause problems - although not many of them. Remember that "accidental discharge" in the cockpit? Ended up as a relatively minor event with a lot of noise.
I would say that main thing which can come out of such programs is the peace of mind of some people who feel they need to be that "last line".
Yes, it is about American mindset and it is unlikely to change anytime soon. Is it a stupid approach? Well, "do not object to your boss" works along the same line, and can - and did - result in a crash with the loss of life. So it could be worse...
 
gunnerman
Posts: 1164
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:06 pm

A question is how many other pilots with guns have failed to carry them at all times. A gun is of limited use if you can't get to it quickly.
 
airtran737
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:39 pm

Airontario wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
Airontario wrote:
The idea of any crew member having a gun on their person on an airplane is outrageous.

However, just to humour those gun nuts, why would a pilot need one?

Shouldn't the purser be the person to carry it? If any violent incident was to happen on an airplane, it would 99.9% happen in the cabin. The first thing that would happen would be total lock down of the flight deck, rendering a gun there useless no?


Clearly you’re not a pilot. We have the ability to have a gun because we are the last line of defense when someone tries to breech our cockpit.

The purser? Are you serious? The last thing I want on my airplane is an 83 year old woman with a gun trying to defend my flight deck. I’m sorry but a gun in the cabin is a terrible idea and would never pass.


Obviously I'm not serious. I don't think anyone should have any sort of weapon on an airplane. However I don't understand how a pilot with a gun is going to have any positive affect on any situation arising in the cabin. Pilots should do what they do best, fly the airplane and land it as quickly as possible. Let the professionals on the ground deal with the weapons.


It’s a last line of defense. FFDO’s do NOT leave the cockpit with their weapon, they let the threat come to them.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
ewt340
Posts: 1310
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:42 pm

airtran737 wrote:
Airontario wrote:
The idea of any crew member having a gun on their person on an airplane is outrageous.

However, just to humour those gun nuts, why would a pilot need one?

Shouldn't the purser be the person to carry it? If any violent incident was to happen on an airplane, it would 99.9% happen in the cabin. The first thing that would happen would be total lock down of the flight deck, rendering a gun there useless no?


Clearly you’re not a pilot. We have the ability to have a gun because we are the last line of defense when someone tries to breech our cockpit.

The purser? Are you serious? The last thing I want on my airplane is an 83 year old woman with a gun trying to defend my flight deck. I’m sorry but a gun in the cabin is a terrible idea and would never pass.


What happen to the cockpit door with locks?
Also, nobody wants a gun in a plane whatsoever. Not just in the cabin.

If your last line of defense is a gun in a cockpit. Then your airlines need some serious thinking to do regarding safety. And they should have their licenses revoked for being soo stupid.
 
airtran737
Posts: 3487
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:04 pm

ewt340 wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
Airontario wrote:
The idea of any crew member having a gun on their person on an airplane is outrageous.

However, just to humour those gun nuts, why would a pilot need one?

Shouldn't the purser be the person to carry it? If any violent incident was to happen on an airplane, it would 99.9% happen in the cabin. The first thing that would happen would be total lock down of the flight deck, rendering a gun there useless no?


Clearly you’re not a pilot. We have the ability to have a gun because we are the last line of defense when someone tries to breech our cockpit.

The purser? Are you serious? The last thing I want on my airplane is an 83 year old woman with a gun trying to defend my flight deck. I’m sorry but a gun in the cabin is a terrible idea and would never pass.


What happen to the cockpit door with locks?
Also, nobody wants a gun in a plane whatsoever. Not just in the cabin.

If your last line of defense is a gun in a cockpit. Then your airlines need some serious thinking to do regarding safety. And they should have their licenses revoked for being soo stupid.


Your lack of understanding of how these program works is astounding. I’m not going to address your shortsighted opinions any further. Rest assured, if you fly on my aircraft, you’ll be well protected.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
kiowa
Posts: 795
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:43 pm

ewt340 wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
Airontario wrote:
The idea of any crew member having a gun on their person on an airplane is outrageous.

However, just to humour those gun nuts, why would a pilot need one?

Shouldn't the purser be the person to carry it? If any violent incident was to happen on an airplane, it would 99.9% happen in the cabin. The first thing that would happen would be total lock down of the flight deck, rendering a gun there useless no?


Clearly you’re not a pilot. We have the ability to have a gun because we are the last line of defense when someone tries to breech our cockpit.

The purser? Are you serious? The last thing I want on my airplane is an 83 year old woman with a gun trying to defend my flight deck. I’m sorry but a gun in the cabin is a terrible idea and would never pass.


What happen to the cockpit door with locks?
Also, nobody wants a gun in a plane whatsoever. Not just in the cabin.

If your last line of defense is a gun in a cockpit. Then your airlines need some serious thinking to do regarding safety. And they should have their licenses revoked for being soo stupid.


I like the idea of an armed pilot. I do not like the idea of others behind the cockpit door having weapons.
 
ewt340
Posts: 1310
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:32 am

airtran737 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
airtran737 wrote:

Clearly you’re not a pilot. We have the ability to have a gun because we are the last line of defense when someone tries to breech our cockpit.

The purser? Are you serious? The last thing I want on my airplane is an 83 year old woman with a gun trying to defend my flight deck. I’m sorry but a gun in the cabin is a terrible idea and would never pass.


What happen to the cockpit door with locks?
Also, nobody wants a gun in a plane whatsoever. Not just in the cabin.

If your last line of defense is a gun in a cockpit. Then your airlines need some serious thinking to do regarding safety. And they should have their licenses revoked for being soo stupid.


Your lack of understanding of how these program works is astounding. I’m not going to address your shortsighted opinions any further. Rest assured, if you fly on my aircraft, you’ll be well protected.


Well, it's not easy understanding something soo illogical to do. I'm just challenging the safety procedures of whatever airlines you are working for. If they need a gun for a pilot in the first place, it meant that their security plan wasn't good at all. And as a passenger, that really worries me.

But rest assured. If you don't like your opinion or views to be challenged, this is might not be the forum for you.
 
ewt340
Posts: 1310
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:47 am

kiowa wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
airtran737 wrote:

Clearly you’re not a pilot. We have the ability to have a gun because we are the last line of defense when someone tries to breech our cockpit.

The purser? Are you serious? The last thing I want on my airplane is an 83 year old woman with a gun trying to defend my flight deck. I’m sorry but a gun in the cabin is a terrible idea and would never pass.


What happen to the cockpit door with locks?
Also, nobody wants a gun in a plane whatsoever. Not just in the cabin.

If your last line of defense is a gun in a cockpit. Then your airlines need some serious thinking to do regarding safety. And they should have their licenses revoked for being soo stupid.


I like the idea of an armed pilot. I do not like the idea of others behind the cockpit door having weapons.


Might as well give all the FAs loaded handguns.
 
kiowa
Posts: 795
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:33 pm

ewt340 wrote:
kiowa wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

What happen to the cockpit door with locks?
Also, nobody wants a gun in a plane whatsoever. Not just in the cabin.

If your last line of defense is a gun in a cockpit. Then your airlines need some serious thinking to do regarding safety. And they should have their licenses revoked for being soo stupid.


I like the idea of an armed pilot. I do not like the idea of others behind the cockpit door having weapons.


Might as well give all the FAs loaded handguns.


That is the complete opposite of what I wrote.
 
nagpaw
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:32 pm

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:18 pm

I still can’t find an official statement from Delta or the TSA saying the gun was left behind by a pilot. The articles I find all reference said statements, but the news appears to be quoting itself and is less than believable these days anyway, especially regarding aviation. Anyone have links to the official statements?
 
Strato2
Posts: 576
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:34 pm

falstaff wrote:
Locked doors only slow people down. A bullet or two in the chest will stop the guy.


Germanwings show the door is virtually impenetrable in any reasonable time frame. Also if a bad guy starts trying to enter the flight deck there will be passenger attack to subdue the guy. Guns at cockpit just make it easier to some crazy pilot to kill everybody.
 
Coexstud
Posts: 92
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:48 pm

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:09 pm

airtran737 wrote:
Airontario wrote:
The idea of any crew member having a gun on their person on an airplane is outrageous.

However, just to humour those gun nuts, why would a pilot need one?

Shouldn't the purser be the person to carry it? If any violent incident was to happen on an airplane, it would 99.9% happen in the cabin. The first thing that would happen would be total lock down of the flight deck, rendering a gun there useless no?


Clearly you’re not a pilot. We have the ability to have a gun because we are the last line of defense when someone tries to breech our cockpit.

The purser? Are you serious? The last thing I want on my airplane is an 83 year old woman with a gun trying to defend my flight deck. I’m sorry but a gun in the cabin is a terrible idea and would never pass.



The last thing i want is for a gun crazed pilot on a 757 to open the closed gun bag box etc on us airways to brandish it it and it go off but ooops wait it happened. the second thing i hate for to happen is when a fed air marshal to brandish his weapon but it happened on several of my flights. the whole 83+ purser ideal is faladeris too but oh well.

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