SeaDoo
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:31 pm

I read the whole thread. I think I only saw one comment about the pilot losing his job. Is that the inevitable outcome for a mistake like this?
 
ewt340
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:54 pm

If a pilot bring a gun to a cockpit. Well, it shown that that pilot are mentally unwell, nobody sane would make that decision.

They are either extremely stupid or mentally unstable which are dangerous. Either way, any of them would make them unsuitable to be a pilot. Should be fired and have their license revoked.
 
StTim
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:04 pm

The world has gone mad when people think having guns on a plane is a good idea IMHO. The gun lobby in the USA that supports this is out of control.

Not meant to be political - safety related. I don't want to get on a plane where there are guns in the cockpit or elsewhere in the cabin.
 
smokeybandit
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:31 pm

For as much stuff as there is that gets through TSA, I bet there are guns on planes quite often on American flights.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3131
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:57 pm

SeaDoo wrote:
I read the whole thread. I think I only saw one comment about the pilot losing his job. Is that the inevitable outcome for a mistake like this?


No, he might get disciplined by the airline, but doubtful he loses his job. Safe to safe he is no longer in the FFDO program however.
From my cold, dead hands
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3131
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:58 pm

ewt340 wrote:
If a pilot bring a gun to a cockpit. Well, it shown that that pilot are mentally unwell, nobody sane would make that decision.

They are either extremely stupid or mentally unstable which are dangerous. Either way, any of them would make them unsuitable to be a pilot. Should be fired and have their license revoked.


Using what standard is he mentally insane? He isn't, there is no reason to lose his job or his certificate. We don't do things like that in the United States, make up standards to apply retroactively.
From my cold, dead hands
 
SeaDoo
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:11 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
SeaDoo wrote:
I read the whole thread. I think I only saw one comment about the pilot losing his job. Is that the inevitable outcome for a mistake like this?


No, he might get disciplined by the airline, but doubtful he loses his job. Safe to safe he is no longer in the FFDO program however.


Thanks for your response. As an industry outsider, what type of punishment would he get? Temporary suspension or something else?

Reference being out of the FFDO program, is his participation terminated by his employer or the government?

Thanks again
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3131
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:24 pm

SeaDoo wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
SeaDoo wrote:
I read the whole thread. I think I only saw one comment about the pilot losing his job. Is that the inevitable outcome for a mistake like this?


No, he might get disciplined by the airline, but doubtful he loses his job. Safe to safe he is no longer in the FFDO program however.


Thanks for your response. As an industry outsider, what type of punishment would he get? Temporary suspension or something else?

Reference being out of the FFDO program, is his participation terminated by his employer or the government?

Thanks again


FFDO's are federal law enforcement officers (when in their duty). Without saying a bunch, an employer has no real say in FFDO's, it's a deal between the individual who signs up and the federal government. Losing his badge is enough of a punishment.
From my cold, dead hands
 
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atcsundevil
Moderator
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:10 am

Please discuss the topic without getting involved in gun politics. Political discussion may only take place in the Non Aviation Forum, as required by forum rules. This is an aviation forum, so please keep the discussion about aviation.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:15 am

kiowa wrote:
Pilots trained as FFDOs are a much better program than random air marshalls. I would also much rather have an FFDO on board than a small town cop or postal inspector carrying a firearm.

FFDOs receive about one week of firearms training at FLETC in New Mexico. FAMs maintain some of the highest marksmanship standards of any federal law enforcement agency. Neither program is without its controversy, but it would be inaccurate to say that FFDOs receive any sort of advanced training, certainly not comparable to FAMs.
 
rbavfan
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Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:37 am

kiowa wrote:
He may not have been an FFDO


If he left his government issued hand gun, yes he was. It's the only way to get it.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3241
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:39 am

jumbojet wrote:
ZBBYLW wrote:
[

The best way to keep the flight deck secure is to follow all the protocols in place. We have the ability to keep anyone out of the flight deck. What are you going to do if someone is hell bent on taking over the airplane? Open the door with your pistol to try and be a hero? )


A beverage cart with a 60 'something' year old standing in-between that and the flight deck is a joke. That will not stop several potential hijackers from gaining entry to and taking over a plane. And there are no guarantees the pilot or co-pilot will be able to retrieve said gun in time and stop the threat. Heck, half the time the pilot stops to make small talk with the flight attendant, leaving the flight deck door open longer than it needs to be.


He does not leave that door open if he wants to keep flying. And I'd like to see you get in when the door is locked.
 
catiii
Posts: 3155
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:46 am

ewt340 wrote:
If a pilot bring a gun to a cockpit. Well, it shown that that pilot are mentally unwell, nobody sane would make that decision.

They are either extremely stupid or mentally unstable which are dangerous. Either way, any of them would make them unsuitable to be a pilot. Should be fired and have their license revoked.


If they're an FFDO? Huh?
 
rbavfan
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Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:56 am

Oliver2020 wrote:
EmoticonsAllDay wrote:
I have no idea why there has to be a gun at all in a plane provided all the rigorous security measures before boarding the aircraft especially in the US with TSA. I have never heard about guns in planes in the east particularly in the Asia.


There was a cop last year from Santa Monica I believe that flew to Taiwan with a gun that she accidentally forgot and went through TSA at LAX.

Just a few weeks ago a regular passenger went through ATL TSA with a gun that they accidentally forgot as well.

In both instances the only reason anyone found out was because the passengers got scared when they realized they had the guns on their person once THROUGH TSA. How many instances do you think happened where someone got through and didn't mention it for fear of prosecution?


Sorry to say, but if she is a cop and forgot she had her gun when boarding. She should be suspended.
 
twinotter
Posts: 225
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:13 am

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:23 pm

Eventually one of these fools is going too shoot a colleague or passenger, and that will be the beginning of the end of this silly program. One of them has already shot up an airplane.
 
ewt340
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Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:04 pm

catiii wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
If a pilot bring a gun to a cockpit. Well, it shown that that pilot are mentally unwell, nobody sane would make that decision.

They are either extremely stupid or mentally unstable which are dangerous. Either way, any of them would make them unsuitable to be a pilot. Should be fired and have their license revoked.


If they're an FFDO? Huh?


The only thing I remember about them is about how UA pilot throw their live munitions in the trash and flushed it down the toilet before going on international flights.

Anyway, I prefer extreme prevention rather than "a cure".
 
26point2
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:10 pm

Have these FFDO crewmen, or Air Marshals for that matter, ever been credited for saving the day because they are armed? I’ve never heard of a case but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened. Legitimate aviation question. Not trolling.
 
kiowa
Posts: 573
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:26 pm

26point2 wrote:
Have these FFDO crewmen, or Air Marshals for that matter, ever been credited for saving the day because they are armed? I’ve never heard of a case but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened. Legitimate aviation question. Not trolling.



Not that I know of but how many cops ever shoot a weapon at someone during their entire career?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:21 am

About good guys with a gun, they were there during the Las Vegas terrorist attack in 2017, however they figured that if they got their guns out, they were likely to be shot by other good guys, or police, so they didn't do anything.

I read that recently one good guy was shot to death by police, while the real perpetrator was allowed to flee.

Ringing endorsements of the concept.

twinotter wrote:
Eventually one of these fools is going too shoot a colleague or passenger, and that will be the beginning of the end of this silly program. One of them has already shot up an airplane.


Didn't one already put a bullet hole in the cockpit ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1153
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:50 pm

26point2 wrote:
Have these FFDO crewmen, or Air Marshals for that matter, ever been credited for saving the day because they are armed? I’ve never heard of a case but that doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened. Legitimate aviation question. Not trolling.


I don't think so.

But some would say that proves the effectiveness of the program, which is deterrence. Layered defense and deterrence.

I personally think the FFDO program is dangerous, but I also wish that every terrorist was concerned that 30% of pilots were armed and the terrorist didn't know if his/her pilot was one of the 30%. Unfortunately the peoole who run the program have said that it is only a very small number (of FFDOs).
 
catiii
Posts: 3155
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:10 pm

ewt340 wrote:
catiii wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
If a pilot bring a gun to a cockpit. Well, it shown that that pilot are mentally unwell, nobody sane would make that decision.

They are either extremely stupid or mentally unstable which are dangerous. Either way, any of them would make them unsuitable to be a pilot. Should be fired and have their license revoked.


If they're an FFDO? Huh?


The only thing I remember about them is about how UA pilot throw their live munitions in the trash and flushed it down the toilet before going on international flights.

Anyway, I prefer extreme prevention rather than "a cure".


So then you’ve demonstrated you know nothing about the FFDO program, or that you know what you’re talking about. Thanks.
 
twinotter
Posts: 225
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:13 am

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:23 pm

26point2 wrote:
Have these FFDO crewmen, or Air Marshals for that matter, ever been credited for saving the day because they are armed?


Not that I know of, but one of them did wave his gun around during a road rage incident and threatened somebody with it, claiming to be a "federal agent". Google Clayton Reynolds for details about that.
 
Casablanca
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:52 am

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:07 am

ewt340 wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
Airontario wrote:
The idea of any crew member having a gun on their person on an airplane is outrageous.

However, just to humour those gun nuts, why would a pilot need one?

Shouldn't the purser be the person to carry it? If any violent incident was to happen on an airplane, it would 99.9% happen in the cabin. The first thing that would happen would be total lock down of the flight deck, rendering a gun there useless no?


Clearly you’re not a pilot. We have the ability to have a gun because we are the last line of defense when someone tries to breech our cockpit.

The purser? Are you serious? The last thing I want on my airplane is an 83 year old woman with a gun trying to defend my flight deck. I’m sorry but a gun in the cabin is a terrible idea and would never pass.


What happen to the cockpit door with locks?
Also, nobody wants a gun in a plane whatsoever. Not just in the cabin.

If your last line of defense is a gun in a cockpit. Then your airlines need some serious thinking to do regarding safety. And they should have their licenses revoked for being soo stupid.


Other than El Al, which airline world wide has excellent security? How do you know legitimate airline employees, catering companies etc....that their employees are 100% trustworthy. Contraband, drugs, weapons can easily get on board.
The cockpit door is effective when closed, however on many flights the door may be opened more than 50 times. Having went through some training I can tell you a large man, waiting till an opportune time can bum rush the door just as a meal is being served.....the 53 kg cabin crew will be laying over the throttle quadrant, the big man steps in closes the door( now preventing any assistance of those passengers) and things are interesting. Would a gun help? Probably not but just pointing out the door is not perfect and once someone does breach the cockpit it keeps assistance out quite effectively.
I think the FFDO program was more about deterrence, and only one of many layers. Is it worth it or effective, probably not- but I would estimate that more than 20000 pilots have went through the program over the last 17 years, so really statistically I think we can say most have been very professional and have a great safety record considering the numbers.
 
EmoticonsAllDay
Topic Author
Posts: 148
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Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:46 am

French Policewoman Shot Dead By Fellow Cop In Gun Game

A French policeman who shot and killed a fellow officer at police headquarters in Paris was fooling around with his service weapon when it went off


Source: https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/french-policewoman-shot-dead-by-fellow-cop-in-gun-game-2006091

Stuffs like this keep happening. Even the full time cops can't handle their guns properly. Definitely shouldn't be expected with full time pilots trained to handle guns.
 
CO953
Posts: 515
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:05 am

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:58 am

I am shocked at the degree of naiveity among the posters having a fainting spell over the idea of a pilot being able to protect the cockpit with a handgun.

For those who are suffering severe historical amnesia, or those too young to know any better. I suggest that they look up a historical event that happened on the 11th of September, in the year 2001.

Read up on what happened, and see if any of it rings a bell. Google can be your friend.

I hope none of you are ever flying my aircraft. as your moral beliefs would likely cause you to hesitate to swing your iPad at a bad actor in defense of your passengers, just long enough for the bad actor to take you down.
:old:
 
worldranger
Posts: 232
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:12 pm

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:54 am

All the FFDO’s I used to fly had the same kind of personality “mall cops”.

They would actually get excited at the prospect of a hijack - big gun, big truck, big waistline - Zzzzzzz
 
Oliver2020
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:39 am

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:33 am

EmoticonsAllDay wrote:
French Policewoman Shot Dead By Fellow Cop In Gun Game

A French policeman who shot and killed a fellow officer at police headquarters in Paris was fooling around with his service weapon when it went off


Source: https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/french-policewoman-shot-dead-by-fellow-cop-in-gun-game-2006091

Stuffs like this keep happening. Even the full time cops can't handle their guns properly. Definitely shouldn't be expected with full time pilots trained to handle guns.


This is slightly off topic but if it saves a life I request it remains in this forum:
Close to the same situation as described by emotionsallday
A police officer in the locker room of a department dropped the gun in the officers hand. While the weapon was falling the officer caught it however the weapon was pointed at the officer and the officers hand caught the handle with the fingers and the thumb was over the trigger and when the officer completed the grip by squeezing with the thumb on the trigger unfortunately the barrel was pointed at he officers head.

Point being if a gun owner drops a gun (and I know it's instinct to grab it just let it fall. A gun will not go off by hitting the ground unless the trigger is pressed or some odd phenomenally happens(ex trigger hits something on the ground depressing the trigger)

So if an FFDO accidentally drops the gun in the cockpit please just let it hit the floor of the cockpit.

Mods I know my reply is slightly off topic, and I apologize I just wanted to point out a known example which is a reflex to grab anything a person drops.
 
ewt340
Posts: 817
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:24 am

worldranger wrote:
All the FFDO’s I used to fly had the same kind of personality “mall cops”.

They would actually get excited at the prospect of a hijack - big gun, big truck, big waistline - Zzzzzzz


Uhmm, people with low IQ always act like that. Not just FFDO. Especially after reading some comments in this forum.
 
26point2
Posts: 1066
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am

Re: Delta Pilot leaves Gun in Aircraft at ATL

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:27 am

Only an idiot would forget where he left his gun. We don’t need idiots in the cockpit.

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