What JVs has QR signed? That is where they need to start.

QR was really in the game because of its relationship with IAG. IAG seems to have a more growth oriented view considering them owning BA/Iberia and turning Iberia around.

AA seems to have lost their bearings; they seem to follow Delta's lead in supporting some political positions.

Just did a very recent AA to QR transfer at LHR. If AA pulls out, that incremental traffic probably would move either to a ME3 non-stop or a EU hub. Either way AA looses.

lightsaber wrote:

What JVs has QR signed? That is where they need to start.

There’s one with BA.

sierra3tango wrote:

Airlines0613 wrote:

No, AA lacks any tie ups with any Gulf carrier.

AA?

Thought GF has a code sharing agreement with AA?

No more GF either since earlier this year

Amsterdam wrote:

KLM just started codeshare via SIN with Quantas

Everything happens

Quantas ... on this forum ... I love it

interesting, especially for the more regional QR routes eg in UK. The oneworld card holders will drop QR like a stone and shift back to BA via LHR. A lot of usual QR bluster I would imagine...

IAG Walsh believes "highly likely" QR will leave OW

http://atwonline.com/airlines/walsh-qat ... e-oneworld

Walsh said the two companies would continue to explore new ways of working together, regardless of whether they were alliance partners.

Does QR try for another alliance (would anyone want them?) or do they simply pursue independent partnerships with other carriers?

If Qatar withdraws from OW I wonder if any of there US routes minus JFK would be affected.

LAXintl wrote:

IAG Walsh believes "highly likely" QR will leave OW

http://atwonline.com/airlines/walsh-qat ... e-oneworld

Walsh said the two companies would continue to explore new ways of working together, regardless of whether they were alliance partners.

Now that's interesting, really. He does qualify it by saying that he thinks Al Baker would not say it unless he was serious about it.

It would be really annoying from a passenger perspective though! I like having Qatar in oneworld. I won't fly with them if they are not as I only fly with airlines in the alliance apart from the occasional low cost by necessity.

Considering the strong financial ties that Qatar has with Latam, IAG, and now Cathay, I would think there is some pressure from these airlines as well for AA to come to the table and seriously talk about this. Any type of quarrel can not be really beneficial for the alliance and its reputation.

I couldn’t help but laugh when I saw this thread! Really QR? Maybe QR and SQ and quit their perspective alliances and form their own with B6 and AS! I don’t think there’s a rule that state you must play nice with your fellow alliance member.... Take a look at the relationship between SQ and UA. SQ only codeshare with UA only on eight routes. But a ton with B6 on the East Coast and now AS in the West. You don’t see founding member UA threatening to pull out of the alliance.

Casablanca wrote:

Considering the strong financial ties that Qatar has with Latam, IAG, and now Cathay, I would think there is some pressure from these airlines as well for AA to come to the table and seriously talk about this. Any type of quarrel can not be really beneficial for the alliance and its reputation.

Knowing some of the folks at BA, they report that the difference between QR and the other OW members is that the majority of companies 'lean on each other' and tap into each others knowledge and experiences to improve and cut costs, whereas QR thinks the alliance exists for them.

If QR leaves One World, can/will Etihad fill QR's place?

usflyer msp wrote:

As usual, AAB is full of BS. QR gets much more from its membership in OW than it provides to the other members. if it leaves OW the attitudes of AA and QF are still not going to change - so what exactly is the benefit QR would get from a departure?

Alan Joyce said it best when he referred to Etihad vs Emirates back in 2013 - "an alliance with Etihad ahead of Emirates as "being offered a bike before a BMW".

That could easily apply to QR.

SelseyBill wrote:

Casablanca wrote:

Considering the strong financial ties that Qatar has with Latam, IAG, and now Cathay, I would think there is some pressure from these airlines as well for AA to come to the table and seriously talk about this. Any type of quarrel can not be really beneficial for the alliance and its reputation.

Knowing some of the folks at BA, they report that the difference between QR and the other OW members is that the majority of companies 'lean on each other' and tap into each others knowledge and experiences to improve and cut costs, whereas QR thinks the alliance exists for them.

AA has treated QR as the enemy - in reality their enemy is United and Delta. They are in last place in my opinion and double the debt load. It has never really been their style to work together-they have always had bad relations with everyone starting with their own labor unions-...... but just a possibility that they could do better cooperating with their partners than fighting? Maybe little naive on my part

AA would get the Africa, ISC, and South East Asia feed. Granted CX and BA do preform the heavy lifting into those sectors, QR is definitely stronger into the ISC than CX.

"Alliances"... what a waste of time. The whole concept should be ditched. It's usefulness from a marketing perspective must surely be close to an end. Recent long haul travels on Oneworld carriers showed what a jip the whole thing is.

Given how mediocre AA, BA and QF inflight services are in Yand J, compared to QR, it's devoted Oneworld pax that will miss out on experiencing an excellent service. I'm sure QR will be just fine.

aerokiwi wrote:

"Alliances"... what a waste of time. The whole concept should be ditched. It's usefulness from a marketing perspective must surely be close to an end. Recent long haul travels on Oneworld carriers showed what a jip the whole thing is.

Given how mediocre AA, BA and QF inflight services are in Yand J, compared to QR, it's devoted Oneworld pax that will miss out on experiencing an excellent service. I'm sure QR will be just fine.

You mean, just like AA, BA and QF will be just fine without QR?

I'm sure if AA, BA and QF didn't have to make a profit and had the money to throw around I'm sure you couple compare apples with apples.

getluv wrote:

aerokiwi wrote:

"Alliances"... what a waste of time. The whole concept should be ditched. It's usefulness from a marketing perspective must surely be close to an end. Recent long haul travels on Oneworld carriers showed what a jip the whole thing is.

Given how mediocre AA, BA and QF inflight services are in Yand J, compared to QR, it's devoted Oneworld pax that will miss out on experiencing an excellent service. I'm sure QR will be just fine.

You mean, just like AA, BA and QF will be just fine without QR?

I'm sure if AA, BA and QF didn't have to make a profit and had the money to throw around I'm sure you couple compare apples with apples.

Yes, actually. They'll all do just fine if and when these alliances split. Dunno why ownership is even half relevant. But since you brought it up, we could go into US bankruptcy protection laws and defacto protectionism by governments everywhere of private airlines. My hometown airline - NZ - is majority government owned. Does that grind your gears too?

But it's not relevant. All that is relevant is the value an alliance brings. I can kinda get the resentment on here towards QR, though. Outstanding service delivery by one has a way of showing up the glaring deficiencies in others. I mean, BA's J class... what a shocker.

Good luck to QR. I hope they do ditch OW and forge strong partnerships with quality carriers as needed. Imagine if they bought out VA and used that as their Australian vehicle... swoon!

aerokiwi wrote:

getluv wrote:

aerokiwi wrote:

"Alliances"... what a waste of time. The whole concept should be ditched. It's usefulness from a marketing perspective must surely be close to an end. Recent long haul travels on Oneworld carriers showed what a jip the whole thing is.

Given how mediocre AA, BA and QF inflight services are in Yand J, compared to QR, it's devoted Oneworld pax that will miss out on experiencing an excellent service. I'm sure QR will be just fine.

You mean, just like AA, BA and QF will be just fine without QR?

I'm sure if AA, BA and QF didn't have to make a profit and had the money to throw around I'm sure you couple compare apples with apples.

Yes, actually. They'll all do just fine if and when these alliances split. Dunno why ownership is even half relevant. But since you brought it up, we could go into US bankruptcy protection laws and defacto protectionism by governments everywhere of private airlines. My hometown airline - NZ - is majority government owned. Does that grind your gears too?

But it's not relevant. All that is relevant is the value an alliance brings. I can kinda get the resentment on here towards QR, though. Outstanding service delivery by one has a way of showing up the glaring deficiencies in others. I mean, BA's J class... what a shocker.

Good luck to QR. I hope they do ditch OW and forge strong partnerships with quality carriers as needed. Imagine if they bought out VA and used that as their Australian vehicle... swoon!

Yeah i’m sure SQ and EY will love that in that alternative reality of yours.

QR are quite happy to invest in that shocking J class in BA.

NZ is publicly listed and doesn’t have a government gold plating all their investment decisions on their behalf.

getluv wrote:

aerokiwi wrote:

getluv wrote:

You mean, just like AA, BA and QF will be just fine without QR?

I'm sure if AA, BA and QF didn't have to make a profit and had the money to throw around I'm sure you couple compare apples with apples.

Yes, actually. They'll all do just fine if and when these alliances split. Dunno why ownership is even half relevant. But since you brought it up, we could go into US bankruptcy protection laws and defacto protectionism by governments everywhere of private airlines. My hometown airline - NZ - is majority government owned. Does that grind your gears too?

But it's not relevant. All that is relevant is the value an alliance brings. I can kinda get the resentment on here towards QR, though. Outstanding service delivery by one has a way of showing up the glaring deficiencies in others. I mean, BA's J class... what a shocker.

Good luck to QR. I hope they do ditch OW and forge strong partnerships with quality carriers as needed. Imagine if they bought out VA and used that as their Australian vehicle... swoon!

Yeah i’m sure SQ and EY will love that in that alternative reality of yours.

QR are quite happy to invest in that shocking J class in BA.

NZ is publicly listed and doesn’t have a government gold plating all their investment decisions on their behalf.

Well that “shocking J class” has a replacement on it’s way for next year. I’m not a fan boy, but it is happening.

getluv wrote:

aerokiwi wrote:

getluv wrote:

You mean, just like AA, BA and QF will be just fine without QR?

I'm sure if AA, BA and QF didn't have to make a profit and had the money to throw around I'm sure you couple compare apples with apples.

Yes, actually. They'll all do just fine if and when these alliances split. Dunno why ownership is even half relevant. But since you brought it up, we could go into US bankruptcy protection laws and defacto protectionism by governments everywhere of private airlines. My hometown airline - NZ - is majority government owned. Does that grind your gears too?

But it's not relevant. All that is relevant is the value an alliance brings. I can kinda get the resentment on here towards QR, though. Outstanding service delivery by one has a way of showing up the glaring deficiencies in others. I mean, BA's J class... what a shocker.

Good luck to QR. I hope they do ditch OW and forge strong partnerships with quality carriers as needed. Imagine if they bought out VA and used that as their Australian vehicle... swoon!

Yeah i’m sure SQ and EY will love that in that alternative reality of yours.

QR are quite happy to invest in that shocking J class in BA.

NZ is publicly listed and doesn’t have a government gold plating all their investment decisions on their behalf.

Cheer up getluv, I'm allowed to pie-in-the-sky it sometimes, no? I'm guessing... no.

As a passenger, I couldn't care less if an airline is government owned or not. The ME3 seized an opportunity and good for them. Other countries have historically done the same - no bleating from the bleachers on those ones. As a result, John Q Pax gets an excellent product. Meanwhile, govt owned airlines abound worlwide (btw NZ has partial listed but majority govt owned). So with regard to alliances, ownership is a strawman.

What the alliances have done is showcase the weaknesses in particular airlines' service quality as pax transfer between them and see for themselves. Maybe OneWorld would be happy to see the back of QR for showing them up. Relations within OW have clearly been a little strained, possibly reflecting management styles. QF ditched BA for EK to Europe. QF and CX have been pretty antagonistic with some sunlight there only very recently. Hmmmm.

usflyer msp wrote:

RichardWelling wrote:

AA would get the Africa, ISC, and South East Asia feed.

Not really. There is no JV and AA does not fly to DOH, so all AA would get is some minor prorated revenue for the domestic segments. The benefit is almost all QR's.

Don't AA-QR codeshare on the DOH-US flights? I know a codeshare doesn't translate 1:1 into a JV, I do remember seeing AA flight numbers at the gates with US bound QR flights at DOH while making my connection.

HECA wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

RichardWelling wrote:

AA would get the Africa, ISC, and South East Asia feed.

Not really. There is no JV and AA does not fly to DOH, so all AA would get is some minor prorated revenue for the domestic segments. The benefit is almost all QR's.

Don't AA-QR codeshare on the DOH-US flights? I know a codeshare doesn't translate 1:1 into a JV, I do remember seeing AA flight numbers at the gates with US bound QR flights at DOH while making my connection.

No I don't think they have codeshare arrangement on such route.

The only way for AA QR relationship going forward is either AA accepts QR as a shareholder investor or a former AA management take over from QR big mouth. Neither is likely to happen any time soon.

What I am saying is if AA plays nice, they could get the feed from the zones I mentioned in a JV or code share which would help widen their presence.

I am currently in Australia, and yesterday flew BNE to SYD. As I was standing in the baggage hall in the Qantas domestic terminal (T3) in SYD, I looked at the monitor to determine on which carousel my bags would arrive. One thing that struck me observing the monitor, was how few oneworld carriers have codeshares on QF domestic sectors. I saw EK and NZ codes on nearly every domestic QF flight, and a number of MU codes. In fact the only oneworld code I saw was a LATAM code on one flight. No BA or AA was seen, although admittedly I was only watching it for a few moments.

Still...

vhtje wrote:

I am currently in Australia, and yesterday flew BNE to SYD. As I was standing in the baggage hall in the Qantas domestic terminal (T3) in SYD, I looked at the monitor to determine on which carousel my bags would arrive. One thing that struck me observing the monitor, was how few oneworld carriers have codeshares on QF domestic sectors. I saw EK and NZ codes on nearly every domestic QF flight, and a number of MU codes. In fact the only oneworld code I saw was a LATAM code on one flight. No BA or AA was seen, although admittedly I was only watching it for a few moments.

Still...

I'm pretty sure EK and NZ codeshare on all of QF scheduled domestic services. There may be some exceptions.

In saying that, alliances mean nothing when you own 63% of your home market. Airlines that have a large domestic network purposely restrict codeshares unless there's a competitive/strategic advantage in letting an airline codeshare. However, because QF does own a large proportion of the domestic market it has to offer the same liberal interline agreement to virtually every airline (~140 last I checked) otherwise they would get into trouble from Australian regulators.

Well, the South China Morning Post quotes Alan Joyce of Qantas on the issue.

The headline is, "Leave if you’re not happy, Qantas CEO tells Qatar Airways in response to Oneworld exit threats"

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/transport/article/2173299/leave-if-youre-not-happy-qantas-ceo-tells-qatar-airways

The actual quotes in the article are much less than that.

It also says, "Among the big draws for travellers on Qatar Airways are its low prices for long-haul destinations, particularly in business class, often as low as US$1,000 for a return ticket between Europe and Australia." -- I've not see anything that low. The lowest I've seen is US$1,600 return, which I am certain was a mistake fare.

Anyway, interesting article.

Sydney Morning Herald/Fairfax is reporting that QR is expected to leave oneworld in December, according to their sources.

"But senior industry figures have told Fairfax Media the latest dispute could be the final straw, and expect that Qatar will finally leave Oneworld after a meeting of its 13 airline members in New York in early December."

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 50g5p.html

Sometimes being part of a group or alliance isn't what's best for you and it's good to leave. If QR think that reassertion gets itself as an independent global company without the interference and control of a foreign controlled entity then it should be able to leave as it sees fit. Sometimes other members get a better deal and try and make life difficult for you whilst you pay a lot more to be a member.

Sometimes what started out good turns sour and leaving is the only option and allowing you to form deep and comprehensive partnerships and deals with the globe. Reminds me of something. QF and EK maybe?

In the event of Qatexit wouldn't EK be a great fit? If QF does wind back it's partnership with EK in favour of the Far East, EK in OW could be a great fit for regional Europe to secondary markets throughout Asia and beyond.

So how much did QR pay to join OW and how much will it cost to leave?

As for EK- they don't want to be a part of any alliance and I doubt any alliance wants them.

SkyTeam lost China Southern.

Will Qatar joins SkyTeam in place of CZ ?

nicode wrote:

SkyTeam lost China Southern.

Will Qatar joins SkyTeam in place of CZ ?

Skyteam is transforming to friend of delta airlines.
Do you think Delta airlines will welcome Qatar airways?

eta unknown wrote:

As for EK..... I doubt any alliance wants them.

Very obtuse way of denigrating EK.

Any Alliance would welcome EK instead of QR.

Come on folks this is petty. Both are excellent carriers. The question we need to be moving the discussion to is are alliances a thing of the future given current trend towards j/v and if they are, would a new alliance be possible or are carriers like QR and CZ out in the cold. My sense is not.

Why do you think that, Spud? Alliance membership works both ways and plenty of existing members would veto EK. Besides, EK has said publicly they aren't interested...

Super bummer, I would like the option to be able to earn aa miles on qr flights still.

All three existing alliances prefer stability.

All three existing alliances would prefer EK was in THEIR alliance, rather than out.

All three existing alliances would prefer EK was in any of the three existing alliances (though naturally they would prefer they were in their own).

Fit isn't the primary concern. It's the threat EK has the critical mass and draw power to create a new, fourth alliance, which could trigger the failure of one or two of the existing ones.

QR departing OneWorld. What risk of collateral damage if they can influence IAG to follow?

Airline alliances are a bit like Amway participants. Unless there is a re-write of the membership and distribution rules for a new member (which has happened within alliances), last to join has the least to gain, discounted further by diminutive size / scale. To get EK into an alliance, they would need to be offered founder member status, which would require the agreement of all founder members and a majority of non-founder members (varies according to the alliance).

In theory, there should be room in the market for a backbone legacy and multiple non-legacies. Instead, alliances to-date are about legacies managing and limiting non-legacy expectations, which is why there are three alliances, reflecting the US3 and EU3.

Alliances need to re-invent themselves in the next decade. In CORSIA discussions to-date, one is especially proactive in respect to carbon, capacity, aircraft and revenue sharing opportunities.

I feel like QR should start its own alliance.

Star Alliance should be a good option for Qatar Airways because Turkey is the best ally for Qatar both politically and commercially.The only and major problem is that Egypt Air and Qatar airways are ennemies at the moment.

thekorean wrote:

I feel like QR should start its own alliance.

They technically have an equity alliance with all the airlines they have stake in. If they really wanted to spite AA and QF, they could buy all stakes in each OW member. So it would be an alliance within an alliance. But that type of spiteful behavior would be too costly.

RichardWelling wrote:

thekorean wrote:

I feel like QR should start its own alliance.

They technically have an equity alliance with all the airlines they have stake in. If they really wanted to spite AA and QF, they could buy all stakes in each OW member. So it would be an alliance within an alliance. But that type of spiteful behavior would be too costly.

What QR essentially is doing is exiting from a formal relationship with AA and QF, both of whom have shown antipathy for QR. They own stakes in CX, IAG, and Latam and I believe has commercial relationships with RJ, JL, and UL. Little will change for QR aside from not paying a Oneworld membership fee.

I get QF’s relationship with EK, but as typical with AA under Parker, I think AA is shooting themselves in the foot. AA threw a hissy fit that rivals only AAB’s behavior when QR wanted to buy what was I believe a 10% stake.

eta unknown wrote:

Why do you think that, Spud? Alliance membership works both ways and plenty of existing members would veto EK. Besides, EK has said publicly they aren't interested...

Yes, we know EKs views on alliances.

That aside, they are a huge people mover with lucrative routes. Who wouldn't want them in their alliance?

If there were no obstacles, I doubt any alliance would willing choose to have QR ahead of EK.

Look no further than Oneworld and QF.

QF clearly sees more financial value with EK, who aren't even in Oneworld, over QR who are in it. I think that alone speaks volumes.

usflyer msp wrote:

I would bet QR is going to do a whole lot of nothing at the next OW meeting. AAB can talk shit all he wants but QR is still badly suffering due to their primary feeder markets (UAE and KSA) drying up due to the blockade. They desperately need loyal oneworld flyers to fill their planes - much more so than the rest of oneworld needs anything QR offers them (which is not much).

Finally someone talks sense.

I can see AAB being brought in for tea and biscuits with the Emir of Qatar and maybe asked to back off a bit. QR needs stability, not great swings of policy that could impact on the traffic they have managed to retain and even grow in some places.

Qatar needs to deepen its links to IAG more than anything. The new BA J seat is supposed to be Qatar Plus in layout, so there's been obvious major influence wielded there as the seat is allegedly a BA take on QR's latest offering. We can but hope. Same goes for engineering and cargo where there is plenty of crossover.

You build on your strengths and leaving Oneworld would potentially weaken one of their best ones. Besides which, where are the AA 773ER or 789 flights to Doha?

Worked for both Q's. While QF maybe toxic, QR is like terminal cancer. Words to describe QR are, monopoly, tyrant, controls private lives, abusive power, patriarch, narrow minded, does as he is pleased, loves fame and dignity and loves to be worshipped like god, uncontrollable, does against one will. The list goes.

Some apple polishers have the luck to stay with him for year. Majority are kicked out within few months to a years time.