Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
CRJ900 wrote:If their B787-10 will have 344 seats, the A359 will have 375 seats or so, then? Or will they be dedicated for ultra-long-haul and fewer seats?
inkjet7 wrote:Isn't AMS-LIM KLM's longest route? No problem for an A350 I would think.
Breathe wrote:According to this site, AF are going to receive KLM's A350's.
https://www.airway1.com/boeing-787-in-k ... ir-france/
LaunchDetected wrote:But there is 2 major difficulties:
- What about the 787 AF pilots? I can see troubles regarding the work unions (rightly or wrongly).
- The 787 were supposed to replace the A330 and A340, A350 is not exactly the same number of passengers.
TurboJet707 wrote:Thanks. While it is an interesting read, the article, and the French article it links to, is only based on rumours. The claim that KL will not get any A350s is not supported by any facts.
LaunchDetected wrote:The matter was decided during the last board of directors. I have sources but only in french (Workers union report)
musman9853 wrote:how difficult would it be to transfer the af 787s to klm in exchange of the a350s? i know af-klm isnt as integrated as iag, but they are more or less the same company, no?
marcogr12 wrote:But if KLM has the 777-300ERs why do they need A350s? The 773 has got both the capacity and the range
Jetty wrote:marcogr12 wrote:But if KLM has the 777-300ERs why do they need A350s? The 773 has got both the capacity and the range
You could argue the same for AF, which has one of the largest 777-300ER fleets of the world.
Ignoring commonality it makes more sense to allocate the higher capacity new planes at KL because they are replacing 747's while at AF it's A330's that need replacement. Also it's KLM that operates at a slot-restricted airport (AMS) and has a higher load-factor on long-haul flights.
Jetty wrote:marcogr12 wrote:But if KLM has the 777-300ERs why do they need A350s? The 773 has got both the capacity and the range
You could argue the same for AF, which has one of the largest 777-300ER fleets of the world.
Ignoring commonality it makes more sense to allocate the higher capacity new planes at KL because they are replacing 747's while at AF it's A330's that need replacement. Also it's KLM that operates at a slot-restricted airport (AMS) and has a higher load-factor on long-haul flights.
Boair wrote:Jetty wrote:marcogr12 wrote:But if KLM has the 777-300ERs why do they need A350s? The 773 has got both the capacity and the range
You could argue the same for AF, which has one of the largest 777-300ER fleets of the world.
Ignoring commonality it makes more sense to allocate the higher capacity new planes at KL because they are replacing 747's while at AF it's A330's that need replacement. Also it's KLM that operates at a slot-restricted airport (AMS) and has a higher load-factor on long-haul flights.
The 772 fleet is older (1998-2002) than the A332 fleet (2001-2005). While the 772 have been retrofited recently, these aircrafts are getting old and unefficient. A330 fleet on the other hand will be refurbished soon so they are good for a few more years. They also serve many small markets where 789 or A350 may be too big so I could see them sticking around longer than the 772.
Jetty wrote:LaunchDetected wrote:The matter was decided during the last board of directors. I have sources but only in french (Workers union report)
A workers union report is weird as the only source of a decision of the board of directors that's supposed to be more than 2 weeks old, especially as there are usually many KLM leaks of anything AF/KLM related.
Not saying it can't be true, but I wouldn't consider it a fact.
TurboJet707 wrote:Breathe wrote:According to this site, AF are going to receive KLM's A350's.
https://www.airway1.com/boeing-787-in-k ... ir-france/
Thanks. While it is an interesting read, the article, and the French article it links to, is only based on rumours. The claim that KL will not get any A350s is not supported by any facts.
It is said that AF will get all the A350's and that the 7 789's that AF already have may go to KL. It makes me wonder if AF can do without a 789-sized aircraft in the future, when the A330s will be gone? Will the A350 really be their smallest widebody in the future?
KLM's 77Ws are still quite fresh but their 77Es are not the youngest anymore. I think the A350 could have been a good fit there.
inkjet7 wrote:musman9853 wrote:how difficult would it be to transfer the af 787s to klm in exchange of the a350s? i know af-klm isnt as integrated as iag, but they are more or less the same company, no?
The interiors are different with KLM 30 business, 48 economy comfort and 216 economy. AF uses 30 business, 21 premium economy (different seats, 7 abreast) and 225 economy.
chunhimlai wrote:KL operate E195 - B737 -B787 - B777
AF operate A220 - A320 - A350 - A380
perfect
frigatebird wrote:
Another wild idea: KL will swap their entire A330 fleet with all of the AF 787s. This sounds a complex and expensive idea, but actually it is not impossible and even makes some sense. Both AF 787 fleet and KL A330 fleet are smallish. But KL's A330s are still very young and can replace some of AF's older A330s. If KL offloads not only their remaining 10 747s (as planned) but also their remaining 13 A330s, they need 23 other aircraft. They have 8 787s on order, but adding AF's 787s (7 plus 9 more on order) makes 24 787s as replacement. Could be considered IMHO.
747classic wrote:frigatebird wrote:
Another wild idea: KL will swap their entire A330 fleet with all of the AF 787s. This sounds a complex and expensive idea, but actually it is not impossible and even makes some sense. Both AF 787 fleet and KL A330 fleet are smallish. But KL's A330s are still very young and can replace some of AF's older A330s. If KL offloads not only their remaining 10 747s (as planned) but also their remaining 13 A330s, they need 23 other aircraft. They have 8 787s on order, but adding AF's 787s (7 plus 9 more on order) makes 24 787s as replacement. Could be considered IMHO.
Another (more cost efficient) idea :
Extend the operation of the five full pax 744's until the arrival of the successor of the 773, the 779 ( to be ordered, delivery after 2022), don't lease any additional 777-300's.
Currently available : PH-BFG,-H,L,N,and -Y, only an extended C-check is needed to extend the operation for 2 more years.
- 744 (5x) and 744F (4x) can be operated together for optimal cockpit crew rotations.
- 744 replacement in 2022/23 by 779
LifelinerOne wrote:Well, Elbers could say what he wanted, but AF-KLM CEO Ben Smith has decided differently; the A350s will be going to Air France...
https://www.facebook.com/Scramblemagazi ... 6168975233
Cheers!
IWMBH wrote:LifelinerOne wrote:Well, Elbers could say what he wanted, but AF-KLM CEO Ben Smith has decided differently; the A350s will be going to Air France...
https://www.facebook.com/Scramblemagazi ... 6168975233
Cheers!
Yeah a Facebook message which only source is a ''leaked internal message'', this is hard evidence
FrancisBegbie wrote:Ah well, airbus will get their share at KLM with the switch to A32xNEO
frigatebird wrote:IWMBH wrote:LifelinerOne wrote:Well, Elbers could say what he wanted, but AF-KLM CEO Ben Smith has decided differently; the A350s will be going to Air France...
https://www.facebook.com/Scramblemagazi ... 6168975233
Cheers!
Yeah a Facebook message which only source is a ''leaked internal message'', this is hard evidence
I'm pretty sure it's the same paper as supplied by LaunchDetected in post 15. So nothing official, no real news, personally I have always believed there won't be A350s for KL, let's wait for official statements.
What I'm pretty sure is that FB messege about 7 787s to remain at AF and all other 787s will go to KL will not be true. AF will receive 2 more 787s in the next few weeks, pretty sure they won't have a fleet of less than 10 787s, perhaps even one or two more, although not the 16 787s originally planned for AF.
KL needs larger planes to replace the full pax 747s anyway, the A359 and 787-10 aren't big enough IMO.
VTCIE wrote:Will KLM operate any aircraft registered PH-A** after, say, 2024, or whenever the A330s are retired? I am talking about Airbus aircraft.
IWMBH wrote:Although I really like the A350, I agree. A small sub-fleet with just 7 planes doesn't make sense it seem logical to take some extra 787's.
VSMUT wrote:IWMBH wrote:Although I really like the A350, I agree. A small sub-fleet with just 7 planes doesn't make sense it seem logical to take some extra 787's.
As far as I see it, the current orders for 787s and A350s will be supplemented with additional future orders. Those 7 A350s won't be the final A350s they will receive, it is practically guaranteed that additional orders for both types will be placed in the future. This is just about the disposition of the current order.
VSMUT wrote:IWMBH wrote:Although I really like the A350, I agree. A small sub-fleet with just 7 planes doesn't make sense it seem logical to take some extra 787's.
As far as I see it, the current orders for 787s and A350s will be supplemented with additional future orders. Those 7 A350s won't be the final A350s they will receive, it is practically guaranteed that additional orders for both types will be placed in the future. This is just about the disposition of the current order.
marcelh wrote:VSMUT wrote:IWMBH wrote:Although I really like the A350, I agree. A small sub-fleet with just 7 planes doesn't make sense it seem logical to take some extra 787's.
As far as I see it, the current orders for 787s and A350s will be supplemented with additional future orders. Those 7 A350s won't be the final A350s they will receive, it is practically guaranteed that additional orders for both types will be placed in the future. This is just about the disposition of the current order.
KLM doesn’t seem to have problems with operatief small subfleets.
They operated 10 MD11 for years and before the A333 they had 11 A332.
IWMBH wrote:But what plane currently in the KLM-fleet will be replaced with the A350 that can't be replaced with the 787? Does KLM really require the extra range of the A350's to replace, for instance, their 777-200ER fleet?
VSMUT wrote:The A350 slots right in where the 777-200ER will eventually have to be replaced, and on routes where a greater payload and range is required than the 787 can deliver. The A350 will also be able to open new routes.
IWMBH wrote:I still think it's highly unlikely that KLM will choose the NEO over the MAX, but I hope to be wrong.
FrancisBegbie wrote:IWMBH wrote:I still think it's highly unlikely that KLM will choose the NEO over the MAX, but I hope to be wrong.
KL pilots/ops seems to be heavily “Boeing or bust” since MD closed shop, and I’d guess Max comes with a nice discount if you order this year (and which Dutchman doesn’t like a discount? )
However, Max has a PR problem and Smith has gone publicly I believe in that he wants less types and more integration between AF and KL. (Don’t think Max is realistic at AF for multiple reasons).
So interesting case for KL CEO Elbers. Stay Dutch and go for Max or go show he can get out of the trenches towards a ‘new’ AFKL and opt for NEO?
FrancisBegbie wrote:So interesting case for KL CEO Elbers. Stay Dutch and go for Max or go show he can get out of the trenches towards a ‘new’ AFKL and opt for NEO?
frigatebird wrote:But this is just the point, KL's 77E's are still young (12-15 years old, which is about midlife for KL standards), and won't need replacing for another decade.
frigatebird wrote:787-9 for long thin and new routes, the 787-10 for larger capacity routes up to 10 hours (like SFO)
VSMUT wrote:
You just perfectly described why the 787 is not a 777 replacement. Either too small or not enough range. KLM obviously needs both range and capacity - if it was otherwise, they would never even have gotten the 777 to begin with, as the A330-200 and A330-300 combo could do just what you describe.
VSMUT wrote:frigatebird wrote:But this is just the point, KL's 77E's are still young (12-15 years old, which is about midlife for KL standards), and won't need replacing for another decade.
15 years is not young. 20 years is just ripe for retirement, and as far as 777-200ERs go, the trend is to scrap them long before they reach that age.
And midlife for KLM? Really? The A310s lasted 14 years. The 767s between 11 and 6 years. The first 4x A330-200s left after just 9-8 years in service. They just retired an 11 year old 737-700. KLM is not an airline renowned for keeping their aircraft for a long time. Many of the 777-200ERs aren't even owned, but leased, so getting rid of them could make perfect sense.
The MD-11s served them from anywhere between 20 and as little as 16 years, perfectly in line with the 777 phase-out.