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KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:39 pm
by LifelinerOne
At the A4E Aviation Summit in Brussels the CEO of KLM said that the airline will take delivery of the 7 A350-900s as planned:

https://www.facebook.com/Scramblemagazi ... 8528968331

Cheers! :wave:

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:54 pm
by airbuster
Well i know it’s boring but:

I’ll believe it when I see it. And don’t get me wrong. I more than anyone would love to see a KLM A350 and get to fly it!

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:17 pm
by TheLion
That’s good news and hopefully it really will come to pass. The A359’s range and payload delta is ideal for KLM and further orders could materialise for B777 replacement.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:30 pm
by CRJ900
If their B787-10 will have 344 seats, the A359 will have 375 seats or so, then? Or will they be dedicated for ultra-long-haul and fewer seats?

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:48 pm
by marcelh
CRJ900 wrote:
If their B787-10 will have 344 seats, the A359 will have 375 seats or so, then? Or will they be dedicated for ultra-long-haul and fewer seats?

The A359 will probably also have 340-ish seats, but will fly longer routes and/or more payload.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:50 pm
by inkjet7
Isn't AMS-LIM KLM's longest route? No problem for an A350 I would think.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:13 pm
by FlyingHollander
inkjet7 wrote:
Isn't AMS-LIM KLM's longest route? No problem for an A350 I would think.

AMS-SIN is 2 miles longer, and AMS-EZE 575 miles longer. Still shouldn't be much of a problem though.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:02 pm
by Breathe
According to this site, AF are going to receive KLM's A350's.

https://www.airway1.com/boeing-787-in-k ... ir-france/

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:25 pm
by LY777
I wonder if AF will keep the 787s they already have in their fleet.
I wouldn’t like to see the 787 disappear from AF fleet

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:34 pm
by airbuster
This has been changing on a monthly basis for the last 2 years at least. While it seems
logical I’ll believe it when I see it.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:37 pm
by LaunchDetected
I can't see AF keeping a sub-fleet of only 7 787s, it would not be coherent with the whole fleet separation thing.

But there is 2 major difficulties:
- What about the 787 AF pilots? I can see troubles regarding the work unions (rightly or wrongly).
- The 787 were supposed to replace the A330 and A340, A350 is not exactly the same number of passengers.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:51 pm
by TurboJet707
Breathe wrote:
According to this site, AF are going to receive KLM's A350's.

https://www.airway1.com/boeing-787-in-k ... ir-france/


Thanks. While it is an interesting read, the article, and the French article it links to, is only based on rumours. The claim that KL will not get any A350s is not supported by any facts.
It is said that AF will get all the A350's and that the 7 789's that AF already have may go to KL. It makes me wonder if AF can do without a 789-sized aircraft in the future, when the A330s will be gone? Will the A350 really be their smallest widebody in the future?

KLM's 77Ws are still quite fresh but their 77Es are not the youngest anymore. I think the A350 could have been a good fit there.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:52 pm
by Jetty
LaunchDetected wrote:
But there is 2 major difficulties:
- What about the 787 AF pilots? I can see troubles regarding the work unions (rightly or wrongly).
- The 787 were supposed to replace the A330 and A340, A350 is not exactly the same number of passengers.

I see a 3rd one on the long term: KL needs planes with a higher capacity than the 787-9 and more range than the 787-10 for GRU and LAX i.e. The A350 seems the most logical plane for that mission, but not needed for as long as the 777's are still flying.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:09 pm
by inkjet7
Apart from the seven 789's already operating for AF there is one more coming up in about a week and another one in a few weeks' time. If KL would only get 787's there should be follow-up orders for the type to replace the A350's going to AF.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:50 pm
by LaunchDetected
TurboJet707 wrote:
Thanks. While it is an interesting read, the article, and the French article it links to, is only based on rumours. The claim that KL will not get any A350s is not supported by any facts.


The matter was decided during the last board of directors. I have sources but only in french (Workers union report):

Image

From:
https://thetravelersclub.boardingarea.c ... erlandais/

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:00 pm
by fightforlove
No way AF operates no widebodies smaller than the A350. They need A332/789 sized aircraft for Africa and lower yield routes to the Americas.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:09 pm
by Jetty
LaunchDetected wrote:
The matter was decided during the last board of directors. I have sources but only in french (Workers union report)

A workers union report is weird as the only source of a decision of the board of directors that's supposed to be more than 2 weeks old, especially as there are usually many KLM leaks of anything AF/KLM related.

Not saying it can't be true, but I wouldn't consider it a fact.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:16 pm
by musman9853
how difficult would it be to transfer the af 787s to klm in exchange of the a350s? i know af-klm isnt as integrated as iag, but they are more or less the same company, no?

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:42 pm
by EddieDude
Well, the language pasted by LaunchDetected mentions that AF would continue to operate the 789s already in its fleet. I also believe AF will need something smaller than the A359, but perhaps they have concluded that they can hold onto the A332s a bit longer (they are getting new cabins) and the seven to nine 789s they [will] have, in order to satisfy their needs in that aircraft size until they need to make a replacement or expansion decision (when the time comes for that, they will have the 797, the 788 and the A330NEO to choose from)..

With respect to KL, A332s, A333s, 789s, 78Ks, 77Es and 77Ws seems like a good lineup for the time being (personally I was looking fwd to seeing aA359s in KL livery, but oh well). I suppose that the 789s and 78Ks could be good replacements for the A332s, A333s and 77Es. The only doubt -I guess- is whether KL will have a hole in its fleet for long flights (longer than what the 78Ks can profitably do), at a size between the 789 and the 77W. Perhaps KL is in discussions with Boeing about bumping the range of the 78K?

Having said all that, I concur that a union report seems like a very unusual source of fleet decision news, especially when the CEO of KL has publicly mentioned that KL will definitely receive the A359. I think it'd be best to wait for a more official update from the group's corporate communications department.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:46 pm
by chunhimlai
KL operate E195 - B737 -B787 - B777
AF operate A220 - A320 - A350 - A380

perfect

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:01 pm
by Floridaguy74656
I love seeing the beautiful Boeing 787 and Airbus A350 serving alongside in a fleet. Lets be honest they are both great aircraft and given delivery slots ordering both is really the only way to go if you wanna get more aircraft quicker.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:35 pm
by inkjet7
musman9853 wrote:
how difficult would it be to transfer the af 787s to klm in exchange of the a350s? i know af-klm isnt as integrated as iag, but they are more or less the same company, no?

The interiors are different with KLM 30 business, 48 economy comfort and 216 economy. AF uses 30 business, 21 premium economy (different seats, 7 abreast) and 225 economy.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:54 pm
by marcogr12
But if KLM has the 777-300ERs why do they need A350s? The 773 has got both the capacity and the range

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:41 pm
by Jetty
marcogr12 wrote:
But if KLM has the 777-300ERs why do they need A350s? The 773 has got both the capacity and the range

You could argue the same for AF, which has one of the largest 777-300ER fleets of the world.

Ignoring commonality it makes more sense to allocate the higher capacity new planes at KL because they are replacing 747's while at AF it's A330's that need replacement. Also it's KLM that operates at a slot-restricted airport (AMS) and has a higher load-factor on long-haul flights.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:56 pm
by A388
Jetty wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
But if KLM has the 777-300ERs why do they need A350s? The 773 has got both the capacity and the range

You could argue the same for AF, which has one of the largest 777-300ER fleets of the world.

Ignoring commonality it makes more sense to allocate the higher capacity new planes at KL because they are replacing 747's while at AF it's A330's that need replacement. Also it's KLM that operates at a slot-restricted airport (AMS) and has a higher load-factor on long-haul flights.


I agree with you except that most KL's 747's are combi aircraft which have no more than 268 passengers I think so they don't need an aircraft the same as a full passenger 747. Cargo wise speaking, the new generation widebody aircraft also have good cargo capacities what I've read so that is also not the problem. A 787-9 can be a good replacement for these combi 747's too.

In any way, I hope KL will take their A350's no matter what :)

A388

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:04 pm
by Boair
Jetty wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
But if KLM has the 777-300ERs why do they need A350s? The 773 has got both the capacity and the range

You could argue the same for AF, which has one of the largest 777-300ER fleets of the world.

Ignoring commonality it makes more sense to allocate the higher capacity new planes at KL because they are replacing 747's while at AF it's A330's that need replacement. Also it's KLM that operates at a slot-restricted airport (AMS) and has a higher load-factor on long-haul flights.


The 772 fleet is older (1998-2002) than the A332 fleet (2001-2005). While the 772 have been retrofited recently, these aircrafts are getting old and unefficient. A330 fleet on the other hand will be refurbished soon so they are good for a few more years. They also serve many small markets where 789 or A350 may be too big so I could see them sticking around longer than the 772.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:49 pm
by 1989worstyear
Boair wrote:
Jetty wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
But if KLM has the 777-300ERs why do they need A350s? The 773 has got both the capacity and the range

You could argue the same for AF, which has one of the largest 777-300ER fleets of the world.

Ignoring commonality it makes more sense to allocate the higher capacity new planes at KL because they are replacing 747's while at AF it's A330's that need replacement. Also it's KLM that operates at a slot-restricted airport (AMS) and has a higher load-factor on long-haul flights.


The 772 fleet is older (1998-2002) than the A332 fleet (2001-2005). While the 772 have been retrofited recently, these aircrafts are getting old and unefficient. A330 fleet on the other hand will be refurbished soon so they are good for a few more years. They also serve many small markets where 789 or A350 may be too big so I could see them sticking around longer than the 772.


The 77E is considered inefficient? :confused:

I thought the 763 was the worst behind the A340 AND 744?

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:26 am
by frigatebird
Jetty wrote:
LaunchDetected wrote:
The matter was decided during the last board of directors. I have sources but only in french (Workers union report)

A workers union report is weird as the only source of a decision of the board of directors that's supposed to be more than 2 weeks old, especially as there are usually many KLM leaks of anything AF/KLM related.

Not saying it can't be true, but I wouldn't consider it a fact.


Well there were other rumors the A350 decision was to be made during that board meeting, but no news was leaked about it. Until now. I agree it will only be factual after AF/KL makes an official statement.

TurboJet707 wrote:
Breathe wrote:
According to this site, AF are going to receive KLM's A350's.

https://www.airway1.com/boeing-787-in-k ... ir-france/


Thanks. While it is an interesting read, the article, and the French article it links to, is only based on rumours. The claim that KL will not get any A350s is not supported by any facts.
It is said that AF will get all the A350's and that the 7 789's that AF already have may go to KL. It makes me wonder if AF can do without a 789-sized aircraft in the future, when the A330s will be gone? Will the A350 really be their smallest widebody in the future?

KLM's 77Ws are still quite fresh but their 77Es are not the youngest anymore. I think the A350 could have been a good fit there.


KL's 77E fleet is not very old at all, delivered between 2003 and 2007. They'll last until the end of the next decade. So the A359 is not yet needed by KLM.
AF's A332 fleet can also soldier on until 2025 or so at least, enough time for AF to consider their options.

inkjet7 wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
how difficult would it be to transfer the af 787s to klm in exchange of the a350s? i know af-klm isnt as integrated as iag, but they are more or less the same company, no?

The interiors are different with KLM 30 business, 48 economy comfort and 216 economy. AF uses 30 business, 21 premium economy (different seats, 7 abreast) and 225 economy.


Actually, the interiors are not that much different. In fact AF/KL configured the 787s for both airlines in a way intercompany exchange would be very easy, galleys, lavs, business class configuration are identical. KL would only have to remove premium economy seats from an AF 787 and replace these with standard economy seats with a little extra legroom (so called economy comfort).

chunhimlai wrote:
KL operate E195 - B737 -B787 - B777
AF operate A220 - A320 - A350 - A380

perfect

Well that would be possible, but not decided yet.

I do wonder what KL will receive in return for giving up their share of A350s. I have a feeling KL resigned to the idea of no A350s already some time ago, but officially held on to them for internal political reasons. Perhaps KL can have some additional 77W to replace the remaining full pax 747s. I also think KL will want to convert as many of the remaining AF 787-9s on order to KL 787-10s.

Another wild idea: KL will swap their entire A330 fleet with all of the AF 787s. This sounds a complex and expensive idea, but actually it is not impossible and even makes some sense. Both AF 787 fleet and KL A330 fleet are smallish. But KL's A330s are still very young and can replace some of AF's older A330s. If KL offloads not only their remaining 10 747s (as planned) but also their remaining 13 A330s, they need 23 other aircraft. They have 8 787s on order, but adding AF's 787s (7 plus 9 more on order) makes 24 787s as replacement. Could be considered IMHO.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:10 am
by 747classic
frigatebird wrote:

Another wild idea: KL will swap their entire A330 fleet with all of the AF 787s. This sounds a complex and expensive idea, but actually it is not impossible and even makes some sense. Both AF 787 fleet and KL A330 fleet are smallish. But KL's A330s are still very young and can replace some of AF's older A330s. If KL offloads not only their remaining 10 747s (as planned) but also their remaining 13 A330s, they need 23 other aircraft. They have 8 787s on order, but adding AF's 787s (7 plus 9 more on order) makes 24 787s as replacement. Could be considered IMHO.


Another (more cost efficient) idea :
Extend the operation of the five full pax 744's until the arrival of the successor of the 773, the 779 ( to be ordered, delivery after 2022), don't lease any additional 777-300's.
Currently available : PH-BFG,-H,L,N,and -Y, only an extended C-check is needed to extend the operation for 2 more years.

- 744 (5x) and 744F (4x) can be operated together for optimal cockpit crew rotations.
- 744 replacement in 2022/23 by 779

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:20 am
by frigatebird
747classic wrote:
frigatebird wrote:

Another wild idea: KL will swap their entire A330 fleet with all of the AF 787s. This sounds a complex and expensive idea, but actually it is not impossible and even makes some sense. Both AF 787 fleet and KL A330 fleet are smallish. But KL's A330s are still very young and can replace some of AF's older A330s. If KL offloads not only their remaining 10 747s (as planned) but also their remaining 13 A330s, they need 23 other aircraft. They have 8 787s on order, but adding AF's 787s (7 plus 9 more on order) makes 24 787s as replacement. Could be considered IMHO.


Another (more cost efficient) idea :
Extend the operation of the five full pax 744's until the arrival of the successor of the 773, the 779 ( to be ordered, delivery after 2022), don't lease any additional 777-300's.
Currently available : PH-BFG,-H,L,N,and -Y, only an extended C-check is needed to extend the operation for 2 more years.

- 744 (5x) and 744F (4x) can be operated together for optimal cockpit crew rotations.
- 744 replacement in 2022/23 by 779


I wouldn't mind that at all! :highfive:

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:53 am
by LifelinerOne
Well, Elbers could say what he wanted, but AF-KLM CEO Ben Smith has decided differently; the A350s will be going to Air France...

https://www.facebook.com/Scramblemagazi ... 6168975233

Cheers!

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:02 am
by FrancisBegbie
Real news doesn’t start on FB, but let’s see. I think it is a fifty-fifty at best for the A350 at KLM.

Ah well, airbus will get their share at KLM with the switch to A32xNEO :stirthepot:

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:23 am
by smartplane
More likely the KLM CEO will go, than A350's will arrive?

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:40 am
by IWMBH
LifelinerOne wrote:
Well, Elbers could say what he wanted, but AF-KLM CEO Ben Smith has decided differently; the A350s will be going to Air France...

https://www.facebook.com/Scramblemagazi ... 6168975233

Cheers!


Yeah a Facebook message which only source is a ''leaked internal message'', this is hard evidence :roll:

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:24 am
by frigatebird
IWMBH wrote:
LifelinerOne wrote:
Well, Elbers could say what he wanted, but AF-KLM CEO Ben Smith has decided differently; the A350s will be going to Air France...

https://www.facebook.com/Scramblemagazi ... 6168975233

Cheers!


Yeah a Facebook message which only source is a ''leaked internal message'', this is hard evidence :roll:


I'm pretty sure it's the same paper as supplied by LaunchDetected in post 15. So nothing official, no real news, personally I have always believed there won't be A350s for KL, let's wait for official statements.

What I'm pretty sure is that FB messege about 7 787s to remain at AF and all other 787s will go to KL will not be true. AF will receive 2 more 787s in the next few weeks, pretty sure they won't have a fleet of less than 10 787s, perhaps even one or two more, although not the 16 787s originally planned for AF.

KL needs larger planes to replace the full pax 747s anyway, the A359 and 787-10 aren't big enough IMO.

FrancisBegbie wrote:
Ah well, airbus will get their share at KLM with the switch to A32xNEO :stirthepot:


I have a hunch the chance of A32x neo's for KLM is bigger than ever.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:34 am
by IWMBH
frigatebird wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
LifelinerOne wrote:
Well, Elbers could say what he wanted, but AF-KLM CEO Ben Smith has decided differently; the A350s will be going to Air France...

https://www.facebook.com/Scramblemagazi ... 6168975233

Cheers!


Yeah a Facebook message which only source is a ''leaked internal message'', this is hard evidence :roll:


I'm pretty sure it's the same paper as supplied by LaunchDetected in post 15. So nothing official, no real news, personally I have always believed there won't be A350s for KL, let's wait for official statements.

What I'm pretty sure is that FB messege about 7 787s to remain at AF and all other 787s will go to KL will not be true. AF will receive 2 more 787s in the next few weeks, pretty sure they won't have a fleet of less than 10 787s, perhaps even one or two more, although not the 16 787s originally planned for AF.

KL needs larger planes to replace the full pax 747s anyway, the A359 and 787-10 aren't big enough IMO.


Although I really like the A350, I agree. A small sub-fleet with just 7 planes doesn't make sense it seem logical to take some extra 787's. The replacement of the full-pax 747's with the 787/A350 is strange because with the slot restrictions faced at AMS, I would've expected some end of the line 777-300ER's.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:35 am
by VTCIE
Will KLM operate any aircraft registered PH-A** after, say, 2024, or whenever the A330s are retired? I am talking about Airbus aircraft.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:39 am
by IWMBH
VTCIE wrote:
Will KLM operate any aircraft registered PH-A** after, say, 2024, or whenever the A330s are retired? I am talking about Airbus aircraft.


The A330's will be around for much longer than 2024, some frames are under 10 years old. If KLM operates Airbus aircraft after the retirement of the A330 depends on whether KLM will take the A350 into service, if not they probably don't. I still think it's highly unlikely that KLM will choose the NEO over the MAX, but I hope to be wrong.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:51 am
by VSMUT
IWMBH wrote:
Although I really like the A350, I agree. A small sub-fleet with just 7 planes doesn't make sense it seem logical to take some extra 787's.


As far as I see it, the current orders for 787s and A350s will be supplemented with additional future orders. Those 7 A350s won't be the final A350s they will receive, it is practically guaranteed that additional orders for both types will be placed in the future. This is just about the disposition of the current order.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:56 am
by IWMBH
VSMUT wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
Although I really like the A350, I agree. A small sub-fleet with just 7 planes doesn't make sense it seem logical to take some extra 787's.


As far as I see it, the current orders for 787s and A350s will be supplemented with additional future orders. Those 7 A350s won't be the final A350s they will receive, it is practically guaranteed that additional orders for both types will be placed in the future. This is just about the disposition of the current order.


But what plane currently in the KLM-fleet will be replaced with the A350 that can't be replaced with the 787? Does KLM really require the extra range of the A350's to replace, for instance, their 777-200ER fleet?

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:01 am
by marcelh
VSMUT wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
Although I really like the A350, I agree. A small sub-fleet with just 7 planes doesn't make sense it seem logical to take some extra 787's.


As far as I see it, the current orders for 787s and A350s will be supplemented with additional future orders. Those 7 A350s won't be the final A350s they will receive, it is practically guaranteed that additional orders for both types will be placed in the future. This is just about the disposition of the current order.

KLM doesn’t seem to have problems with operatief small subfleets.
They operated 10 MD11 for years and before the A333 they had 11 A332.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:15 am
by IWMBH
marcelh wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
Although I really like the A350, I agree. A small sub-fleet with just 7 planes doesn't make sense it seem logical to take some extra 787's.


As far as I see it, the current orders for 787s and A350s will be supplemented with additional future orders. Those 7 A350s won't be the final A350s they will receive, it is practically guaranteed that additional orders for both types will be placed in the future. This is just about the disposition of the current order.

KLM doesn’t seem to have problems with operatief small subfleets.
They operated 10 MD11 for years and before the A333 they had 11 A332.


They had 17 MD-11 in operation if you take the freighter in account which where operation for MP.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:18 am
by VSMUT
IWMBH wrote:
But what plane currently in the KLM-fleet will be replaced with the A350 that can't be replaced with the 787? Does KLM really require the extra range of the A350's to replace, for instance, their 777-200ER fleet?


Contrary to the A.net myth about the 787 and A350 being practically the same, they are 2 very different aircraft. The A350 is bigger, flies longer and carries a bigger payload. The A350 slots right in where the 777-200ER will eventually have to be replaced, and on routes where a greater payload and range is required than the 787 can deliver. The A350 will also be able to open new routes.
KLM is hardly unique in taking advantage of this. United Airlines, Singapore, Qatar, Lufthansa, Turkish, Vietnam Airlines, JAL, Air France and a whole bunch of Chinese airlines will do so too.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:35 pm
by frigatebird
VSMUT wrote:
The A350 slots right in where the 777-200ER will eventually have to be replaced, and on routes where a greater payload and range is required than the 787 can deliver. The A350 will also be able to open new routes.


But this is just the point, KL's 77E's are still young (12-15 years old, which is about midlife for KL standards), and won't need replacing for another decade. With the 787-9, 787-10 and 777-200ER already has all the aircraft in that segment it needs. 787-9 for long thin and new routes, the 787-10 for larger capacity routes up to 10 hours (like SFO), and the 77E for the not that many remaining longer range routes. If KL was to get the A350-1000, it would be different, I could see the sense. But the A359 won't be required for another 10 years, and with some luck an A350neo has arrived by then :cloudnine:

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:05 pm
by FrancisBegbie
IWMBH wrote:
I still think it's highly unlikely that KLM will choose the NEO over the MAX, but I hope to be wrong.


KL pilots/ops seems to be heavily “Boeing or bust” since MD closed shop, and I’d guess Max comes with a nice discount if you order this year (and which Dutchman doesn’t like a discount? :D )

However, Max has a PR problem and Smith has gone publicly I believe in that he wants less types and more integration between AF and KL. (Don’t think Max is realistic at AF for multiple reasons).

So interesting case for KL CEO Elbers. Stay Dutch and go for Max or go show he can get out of the trenches towards a ‘new’ AFKL and opt for NEO?

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:16 pm
by IWMBH
FrancisBegbie wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
I still think it's highly unlikely that KLM will choose the NEO over the MAX, but I hope to be wrong.


KL pilots/ops seems to be heavily “Boeing or bust” since MD closed shop, and I’d guess Max comes with a nice discount if you order this year (and which Dutchman doesn’t like a discount? :D )

However, Max has a PR problem and Smith has gone publicly I believe in that he wants less types and more integration between AF and KL. (Don’t think Max is realistic at AF for multiple reasons).

So interesting case for KL CEO Elbers. Stay Dutch and go for Max or go show he can get out of the trenches towards a ‘new’ AFKL and opt for NEO?


With brand-new NG’s arriving KL it would be an interesting decision if they went for the NEO. I actually hope KL takes the NEO, I prefer the a320 over the 737 but - as a Dutchman myself - I cant argue with a nice discount :lol:

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:22 pm
by marcelh
FrancisBegbie wrote:
So interesting case for KL CEO Elbers. Stay Dutch and go for Max or go show he can get out of the trenches towards a ‘new’ AFKL and opt for NEO?

Elbers lost the pissing contest and he doesn’t make the decision about NEO or MAX (nor does the KLM pilots). OTOH: I don’t care, rather fly LH instead of KLM.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:50 pm
by VSMUT
frigatebird wrote:
But this is just the point, KL's 77E's are still young (12-15 years old, which is about midlife for KL standards), and won't need replacing for another decade.


15 years is not young. 20 years is just ripe for retirement, and as far as 777-200ERs go, the trend is to scrap them long before they reach that age.

And midlife for KLM? Really? The A310s lasted 14 years. The 767s between 11 and 6 years. The first 4x A330-200s left after just 9-8 years in service. They just retired an 11 year old 737-700. KLM is not an airline renowned for keeping their aircraft for a long time. Many of the 777-200ERs aren't even owned, but leased, so getting rid of them could make perfect sense.

The MD-11s served them from anywhere between 20 and as little as 16 years, perfectly in line with the 777 phase-out.


frigatebird wrote:
787-9 for long thin and new routes, the 787-10 for larger capacity routes up to 10 hours (like SFO)


You just perfectly described why the 787 is not a 777 replacement. Either too small or not enough range. KLM obviously needs both range and capacity - if it was otherwise, they would never even have gotten the 777 to begin with, as the A330-200 and A330-300 combo could do just what you describe.

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:02 pm
by Polot
VSMUT wrote:

You just perfectly described why the 787 is not a 777 replacement. Either too small or not enough range. KLM obviously needs both range and capacity - if it was otherwise, they would never even have gotten the 777 to begin with, as the A330-200 and A330-300 combo could do just what you describe.

KLM ordered the 77E ~17 years ago. Today they may be perfectly happy using a mix of 789s (which have the size of the A333 but the range of a 777) and 787-10s (which are larger than the 77E with range similar to the A333) to replace the 77E fleet.

17 years ago their long haul options above A333s (which remember, did not have the range it has even today) were 77E, A340 (similar size and payload/range as 77E), go exclusively larger for long haul with 747s/A380s, or go smaller with A332s (which still didn’t match 777/A340 range). Back in 2002 if you wanted a Boeing with more range than the 763 or larger than a 764 you got the 77E-capacity and payload requirements be damned. Options are different now. Fleet needs are not static across time, and airlines reassess needs based on what’s on the market at time of order and work with that for decades to come.

This is similar to the 77E at AA, where certain members here are convinced that A350s must replace them even though AA uses tons of them on routes where the 777’s capabilities are not needed. Why does, for example, KL need a A359 vs a 787-10 or 789 to fly ATL-AMS- a current 77E route? That is less than 4000 nm, a 787 wouldn’t struggle at all on that. When you start cutting 777E routes that a 787 or modern A333 can easily fly how many are left? Is there enough to sustain a new fleet type? Or is it worthwhile to just work with and abuse what you have until you are ready to replace larger (with A350-1000 or 777X)?

Re: KLM CEO: We will take delivery of A350

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:13 am
by frigatebird
VSMUT wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
But this is just the point, KL's 77E's are still young (12-15 years old, which is about midlife for KL standards), and won't need replacing for another decade.


15 years is not young. 20 years is just ripe for retirement, and as far as 777-200ERs go, the trend is to scrap them long before they reach that age.

And midlife for KLM? Really? The A310s lasted 14 years. The 767s between 11 and 6 years. The first 4x A330-200s left after just 9-8 years in service. They just retired an 11 year old 737-700. KLM is not an airline renowned for keeping their aircraft for a long time. Many of the 777-200ERs aren't even owned, but leased, so getting rid of them could make perfect sense.

The MD-11s served them from anywhere between 20 and as little as 16 years, perfectly in line with the 777 phase-out.


But I can give you some other examples: KL's 737 classics lasted for well over 20 years, currently their oldest 737NG's are nearing 20 years already with no replacement ordered yet, and their 744s are being retired at ages between 22 and 29 years, some with record numbers of cycles and flight hours. So, your statement that KLM is not renowned for keeping their for a long time is not quite correct IMO.

If KLM retires aircraft early, there are reasons: The A310 was too small and lacked range, the MD11's needed to go because spare parts were all grabbed up by FX, 737-700s were made uneconomical by the unions who demand the same number of FA's as on 737-800s. None of these apply the the 77E. Granted, sometimes KL returns aircraft to the lessor, like the 767s and some A330s. Idea behind these decisions was widebody fleet simplification, however I agree that this didn't quite work out very well!

As for the leases: 7 of the 77E are leased, the other 8 are owned, and all indications are KL will buy the leased ones back after leases expire just like they did with the other 77E's and the A332s they now own. I have heard of no plans that KL plans to retire 777-200ER's, but if you did please share.