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KLDC10
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CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:11 pm

I am sure that many on this board are familiar with the problems experienced by CityJet and Brussels Airlines with the Sukhoi Superjet. The wet-lease agreement came to an end earlier this year and, as this article explains, CityJet has now returned the SS100s: https://www.aerotime.aero/aerotime.team ... perjet-100

It was originally CityJet's plan to replace the ageing Avro RJ85 fleet with SSJ100 aircraft. This is no longer the case, but the RJ85s aren't getting any younger. In the absence of any official indication from CityJet about their future fleet plans, might this provide an opening for the C-Series/A220? The CS100 has similar capacity to the SSJ100, and of course to the Avro fleet, with the advantage of better maintenance support than can be counted on from Sukhoi.
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MIflyer12
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:03 pm

Any evidence there's spare capacity in the short term on A220 manufacture? When DL increased its A220 order in January it actually pushed out a delivery for 2019 - let alone catching up for the 11 deliveries that were committed for 2018 and did not occur.
 
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Polot
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:12 pm

It would not surprise me at all if nothing replaces the RJ85s (or SSJs) and Cityjet just ends up being a CRJ operator for SAS and AF/KLM. Haven’t they scrapped all their own scheduled flying, or at least planning to?

Also the A220-100 is much larger than a RJ85. Those could honestly be replaced by CRJ900 or CRJ1000s in terms of capacity although maybe not short field performance.
Last edited by Polot on Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
1900Driver
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:14 pm

Gross miscalculation!
 
VSMUT
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:26 pm

Spoke with a CityJet crew recently. They are getting CRJ-1000s from Air Nostrum. Pilots are already undergoing type-ratings.
 
KLDC10
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:40 pm

Polot wrote:
It would not surprise me at all if nothing replaces the RJ85s (or SSJs) and Cityjet just ends up being a CRJ operator for SAS and AF/KLM. Haven’t they scrapped all their own scheduled flying, or at least planning to?

Also the A220-100 is much larger than a RJ85. Those could honestly be replaced by CRJ900 or CRJ1000s in terms of capacity although maybe not short field performance.


Yes, that's true. The last scheduled route was Dublin to London City. It is still operated now on behalf of Aer Lingus.

You're right, there are 30 more seats on a SWISS A221 than a CityJet Avro RJ85.

VSMUT wrote:
Spoke with a CityJet crew recently. They are getting CRJ-1000s from Air Nostrum. Pilots are already undergoing type-ratings.


As Avro replacements? Per my understanding (also from conversation with CityJet crew), they haven't decided yet and the CRJs are for Cimber.
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VSMUT
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:05 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
As Avro replacements? Per my understanding (also from conversation with CityJet crew), they haven't decided yet and the CRJs are for Cimber.


Yep. At least as Sukhoi and Avro replacements on the Air France HOP! And Brussels Airlines contracts.
 
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shamrock350
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:49 pm

It seems there’s no single perfect replacement for the RJ85 at CityJet. The airline needs an aircraft of similar size which could be covered by the CRJ but they also need an LCY certified aircraft, especially with the Aer Lingus deal on DUB-LCY which will no doubt prove to be their most consistent source of regular business.

The A220 would be a jump in capacity and pretty expensive as well.
 
wrongwayup
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:52 pm

I believe Delta moved back A220 deliveries because they are taking -300s out of Mobile, which can't ramp up fast enough to meet the needs of Delta, Jetblue, and Moxy as it is.

I think if CityJet needed some, A220 availability is better for non-US customers out of Mirabel, and I believe leasing company Macquarie AirFinance (and perhaps IFC and maybe LCI too) still have early-ish slots available as well. It would be a big jump in capital cost from the SSJ though.
 
VSMUT
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:12 pm

shamrock350 wrote:
It seems there’s no single perfect replacement for the RJ85 at CityJet. The airline needs an aircraft of similar size which could be covered by the CRJ but they also need an LCY certified aircraft, especially with the Aer Lingus deal on DUB-LCY which will no doubt prove to be their most consistent source of regular business.

The A220 would be a jump in capacity and pretty expensive as well.


If they are so dead set on streamlining with Air Nostrum, internally contracted Nostrum ATRs could be an option for that single route.

Air Nostrum is no stranger to contracting its flying to other airlines either, so if they really need to, they could hire in a single E-jet or two (from someone like FlyBe or WDL Aviation) to do that particular route.
 
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shamrock350
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:20 pm

VSMUT wrote:
shamrock350 wrote:
It seems there’s no single perfect replacement for the RJ85 at CityJet. The airline needs an aircraft of similar size which could be covered by the CRJ but they also need an LCY certified aircraft, especially with the Aer Lingus deal on DUB-LCY which will no doubt prove to be their most consistent source of regular business.

The A220 would be a jump in capacity and pretty expensive as well.


If they are so dead set on streamlining with Air Nostrum, internally contracted Nostrum ATRs could be an option for that single route.

Air Nostrum is no stranger to contracting its flying to other airlines either, so if they really need to, they could hire in a single E-jet or two (from someone like FlyBe or WDL Aviation) to do that particular route.

It would have to be agreed with Aer Lingus as well and I doubt they'd want an ATR on the route but subbing it out to an E-jet operator is plausible, Stobart already do some flying for BA Cityflyer for example.

There's currently a CityJet Avro being painted in full Aer Lingus colours so I doubt there will be much movement on a replacement soon but in the medium to long term it's an issue they can't shy away from.
 
cornishsimon
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:21 pm

Flybe don’t have any jet aircraft capable of operating into LCY

cs
 
CRJ900
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:25 pm

Could they contract some flyBE Q400 to fly the LCY routes? The Q400 has been used at LCY for years and is relatively modern and efficient.
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Polot
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:27 pm

Eh, I think it’s more likely that EI ends up getting A220s in the future and drops Cityjet to fly the route themselves. I have my doubts that the 2 planes Cityjet is wetleasing Aer Lingus will “prove to be the most consistent source of regular business”, I suspect that will be SAS, Air France Hop, and IB if the Air Nostrum merger goes through, and that in the future Cityjet will have no presence at LCY.
Last edited by Polot on Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
leghorn
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:29 pm

They'd probably have loads of rated Q400 and ATR pilots who would not be averse to flying in to LCY. Not easy to find pilots with familiarity of the A220
 
iceberg210
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:44 pm

Of course there's always the E2. Don't know what the updated status on LCY certification is, but it was in process as of last year.
https://www.londoncityairport.com/media ... er-e190-e2
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BrianDromey
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:50 pm

shamrock350 wrote:
It would have to be agreed with Aer Lingus as well and I doubt they'd want an ATR on the route but subbing it out to an E-jet operator is plausible, Stobart already do some flying for BA Cityflyer for example.

There's currently a CityJet Avro being painted in full Aer Lingus colours so I doubt there will be much movement on a replacement soon but in the medium to long term it's an issue they can't shy away from.


Im not so sure they would care, to be honest. If it makes money, EI will be happy. We don't know enough about the EI/WX deal to know who would take responsibility for secession of the RJ85s. Is it WX 'at risk' flying, or simply a wet-lease deal with EI taking the commercial risk? If WX are the commercial risk-taker then ATRs from Nostrum would be an option, adding the A220 or E190 would be of similar scale - the more modern A220 is probably too large for regional 'white label' business model. It's mainline at Delta, for example, so the E190 might be a better choice. If its EI risk, Mainline A220s or if outsourcing ATRs from Nostrum, or ATR/E190s from Stobart seem logical options.

EI cant be all that worried about ATRs operating routes against jet competition, RE apparently have an exclusivity deal on Scottish routes, for example.
 
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zkojq
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:01 pm

Bombardier has a few spare CS100 frames that FLYBRA hasn't yet taken delivery of.
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Polot
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:16 pm

zkojq wrote:
Bombardier has a few spare CS100 frames that FLYBRA hasn't yet taken delivery of.

Those are not completed aircraft. Who knows if they will ever be completed.
 
vfw614
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:35 pm

EI can always use Stobart and their new E-Jets for LCY-DUB. Don't think that contract will determine Cityjet future fleet composition. Getting a contract from EI was probably the consolation price for Cityjet for handing over the route, but this contract will not run forever.
 
jed747
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:56 pm

It seems like there are still a few places left in the world, like LCY, were the RJ/146 is still the go to choice of aircraft. Is there enough demand that a conversion line can be started to extend the life of current RJ/146 aircraft by implementing as much of the canceled RJX engineering as possible into the existing airframes to give the planes a new lease on life. Thank you and have a nice day
 
wrongwayup
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:34 pm

jed747 wrote:
It seems like there are still a few places left in the world, like LCY, were the RJ/146 is still the go to choice of aircraft. Is there enough demand that a conversion line can be started to extend the life of current RJ/146 aircraft by implementing as much of the canceled RJX engineering as possible into the existing airframes to give the planes a new lease on life. Thank you and have a nice day


No. One-off engineering efforts like this are mega dollars (8-9 figures) up front and then more dollars per aircraft converted (6-7 figures). The reason RJs/146s are still popular for this type of operation is because they are the cheapest choice that can fly the mission. Otherwise everyone would be flying E190/A221s already.
 
vfw614
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:09 pm

jed747 wrote:
It seems like there are still a few places left in the world, like LCY, were the RJ/146 is still the go to choice of aircraft. Is there enough demand that a conversion line can be started to extend the life of current RJ/146 aircraft by implementing as much of the canceled RJX engineering as possible into the existing airframes to give the planes a new lease on life. Thank you and have a nice day


No. There are only two Avro RJ85 used at LCY on a regular basis, the two airframes leased by Aer Lingus to Cityjet. No other airline has scheduled Avro/146s to LCY any more. Nowadays it is all E90 with a few E70, DH4, CS1 and FRJ thrown in. What used to be the Avro/146 at LCY is nowadays the Embraer 190.
 
Breathe
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:11 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Spoke with a CityJet crew recently. They are getting CRJ-1000s from Air Nostrum. Pilots are already undergoing type-ratings.

Is this likely to happen before or after they merge with each other?
 
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Aisak
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:34 pm

shamrock350 wrote:
It would have to be agreed with Aer Lingus as well and I doubt they'd want an ATR on the route but subbing it out to an E-jet operator is plausible, Stobart already do some flying for BA Cityflyer for example.

There's currently a CityJet Avro being painted in full Aer Lingus colours so I doubt there will be much movement on a replacement soon but in the medium to long term it's an issue they can't shy away from.


vfw614 wrote:
EI can always use Stobart and their new E-Jets for LCY-DUB. Don't think that contract will determine Cityjet future fleet composition. Getting a contract from EI was probably the consolation price for Cityjet for handing over the route, but this contract will not run forever.


I don’t know IAG policy on its airlines to outsource flying. But StobartAir now is 100% owned (as well as FlyBE) by Connect Airways (30% owned by Virgin). That implies giving out business to a competitor. Not saying that BA Cityflyer or AerLingus Regional should drop StobartAir overnight but at the time of renewal I would choose a 3rd party instead.
And yes CityJet-AirNostrum have lots of chances even though they don’t have any LCY-capable jet. But as BA already serves LCY-DUB simply putting an EI* codeshare on them should do the job just fine.
 
VSMUT
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:12 am

Breathe wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Spoke with a CityJet crew recently. They are getting CRJ-1000s from Air Nostrum. Pilots are already undergoing type-ratings.

Is this likely to happen before or after they merge with each other?


Pretty sure they already did merge. They are already cross-fleeting. Those Air Nostrum CRJs flying for Brussels Airlines, they are piloted by Air Nostrum, but operate on the CityJet contract with CityJet cabin crews. And as said above, the CityJet pilots are already in the simulator doing CRJ type ratings.
 
Breathe
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:36 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Breathe wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Spoke with a CityJet crew recently. They are getting CRJ-1000s from Air Nostrum. Pilots are already undergoing type-ratings.

Is this likely to happen before or after they merge with each other?


Pretty sure they already did merge. They are already cross-fleeting. Those Air Nostrum CRJs flying for Brussels Airlines, they are piloted by Air Nostrum, but operate on the CityJet contract with CityJet cabin crews. And as said above, the CityJet pilots are already in the simulator doing CRJ type ratings.

Really? I thought it was still going going through regulatory motions. I haven't seen any news since the merger was announced last July.
 
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Aisak
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Re: CityJet abandons the Sukhoi Superjet. A chance for the C-Series?

Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:46 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Breathe wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Spoke with a CityJet crew recently. They are getting CRJ-1000s from Air Nostrum. Pilots are already undergoing type-ratings.

Is this likely to happen before or after they merge with each other?


Pretty sure they already did merge. They are already cross-fleeting. Those Air Nostrum CRJs flying for Brussels Airlines, they are piloted by Air Nostrum, but operate on the CityJet contract with CityJet cabin crews. And as said above, the CityJet pilots are already in the simulator doing CRJ type ratings.


As Breathe says, I recall reading there were some regulatory issues to be sorted out. Not sure why is taking so long. It's not like the two of them (or combined) are such a great player in the market.
As of now Air Nostrum and CityJet are two independent entities owned by different owners.

If Air Nostrum pilots are flying Air Nostrum aircrafts, that's not cross-fleeting... It's just a leasing agreement. CityJet has a contract with Brussels to provide capacity and CityJet contracts that capacity to Air Nostrum.

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