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Vladex
Topic Author
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Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:10 pm

The two busiest airports (and PEK soon to be 100M as well) have no connection at all. It seems like a no brainer and no risk as well so why is it not there?
 
luckyone
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:15 pm

Like everything else lack of business case.
PEK doesn’t have an alliance member that Delta actively codeshares with, and the Skyteam member that is there is about to exit for OneWorld. Delta’s Chinese partner has a much larger operation at PVG.
US-China airfares have been quite low for a while.
Delta has had an on-again-off-again route between ATL and PVG, which is arguably a larger business center in China, suggesting that the market isn’t that large.
Geography. ATL-PEK effectively overflies several other hubs with good service to PEK. Couple that with the above-mentioned market not being that strong and you likely have your answer.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:33 pm

Both US and China carrier has no more traffic right
 
x1234
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:53 pm

Which reminds me, is Delta's ATL-PVG profitable yet?
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:07 pm

Like other said, DL can't even make ATL-PVG work consistently (They're giving it a 3rd try right now), and DL has MU at Shanghai to feed traffic to most of China. DL can also use KE's hub at ICN to feed NE China as-is.

Ultimately ATL TPAC market is just not that big outside of perhaps ICN (Due to the fair size Korean population in Atlanta metro area). ATL is also on the wrong corner of US when it comes to TPAC (i.e. a lot of additional distance compare to West Coast hubs like SEA, Midwest hub like DTW, etc., with MIA being the only other major hub in US that's even further).
 
Arion640
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:10 pm

I know nothing about ATL or PEK really, but It’s obvious the market isn’t there, or it’s not there enough to make it pay.
 
klakzky123
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:12 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Like other said, DL can't even make ATL-PVG work consistently (They're giving it a 3rd try right now), and DL has MU at Shanghai to feed traffic to most of China. DL can also use KE's hub at ICN to feed NE China as-is.

Ultimately ATL TPAC market is just not that big outside of perhaps ICN (Due to the fair size Korean population in Atlanta metro area). ATL is also on the wrong corner of US when it comes to TPAC (i.e. a lot of additional distance compare to West Coast hubs like SEA, Midwest hub like DTW, etc., with MIA being the only other major hub in US that's even further).


I think China is excluded from the DL-KE Joint Venture so DL can't use KE's connections to China.

DL has to use MU or CZ to get to second tier Chinese cities but PVG is sufficient for that. PEK has lower O&D and fewer connections from ATL so there's no reason for DL to use a frequency on an ATL-PEK flight.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:25 pm

luckyone wrote:
PEK doesn’t have an alliance member that Delta actively codeshares with


Even if they had, it would be doubtful if the route would be profitable.

There's no flight between Atlanta and Moscow either, despite them both being SkyTeam hubs (Delta and Aeroflot). Moscow is served from New York JFK instead of Atlanta. Obviously New York has a bigger O/D market to/from Moscow than Atlanta, which heavily relies on connections.
 
SonaSounds
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:28 pm

Vladex wrote:
The two busiest airports (and PEK soon to be 100M as well) have no connection at all. It seems like a no brainer and no risk as well so why is it not there?


The OP probably saw this article and asked the question: https://www.anna.aero/2019/03/06/100-ro ... 1-86861489

If you do the math, there are only 49 PDEWs between PEK-ATL. Most long haul routes need to be somewhere around ~100 to ~120 PDEWs before airlines will consider flying them unless there is a crazy amount of connecting traffic.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:29 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
DL can't use KE's connections to China.


Wrong. Connections are perfectly fine... but KE keeps all the revenue for ICN/China segments.
 
luckyone
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:29 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
I think China is excluded from the DL-KE Joint Venture so DL can't use KE's connections to China.

Can they still code-share?
PatrickZ80 wrote:
There's no flight between Atlanta and Moscow either, despite them both being SkyTeam hubs (Delta and Aeroflot). Moscow is served from New York JFK instead of Atlanta. Obviously New York has a bigger O/D market to/from Moscow than Atlanta, which heavily relies on connections.

Delta used to fly ATL-SVO. I took it about ten years ago. A lot of the market has changed since then.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3525
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:32 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
I think China is excluded from the DL-KE Joint Venture so DL can't use KE's connections to China.

DL has to use MU or CZ to get to second tier Chinese cities but PVG is sufficient for that. PEK has lower O&D and fewer connections from ATL so there's no reason for DL to use a frequency on an ATL-PEK flight.


I try a few dummy book on DL's website and KE flight does show up as a connection options. Doesn't mean it's necessarily good timing, though (The few random cities I tried involved a 12h+ connection).
 
klakzky123
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:43 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:
DL can't use KE's connections to China.


Wrong. Connections are perfectly fine... but KE keeps all the revenue for ICN/China segments.


Ah got it. Do they use DL flight numbers or is this literally combining a KE segment and a DL segment? Why would DL offer this kind of itinerary in lieu of pushing people through PVG?
 
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sassiciai
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:50 pm

Vladex wrote:
The two busiest airports (and PEK soon to be 100M as well) have no connection at all. It seems like a no brainer and no risk as well so why is it not there?

These threads with the "why cant airline X operate route Y - Z" are a real pain! What's the point?

It is evident that there is no commercial reward for such flights, else there would be a service already. I mean, is it so difficult to work that out?

ATL is a mega hub in America. PEK is a mega hub in China. Both are mega due to mostly domestic traffic, so don't confuse absolute numbers to route preferences, especially international. If an airline could make money connecting these two, do you think there would be no service today?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:12 pm

Hmm... because the airline with the big ATL hub also has a DTW hub ... and a daily DTW-PEK flight with a 359?
 
winginit
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:15 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:
DL can't use KE's connections to China.


Wrong. Connections are perfectly fine... but KE keeps all the revenue for ICN/China segments.


That’s correct, but it’s worth pointing out that DL can’t place their code on KE flights to China so connections are limited to interline.
 
TWFlyGuy
Posts: 427
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:43 pm

Not enough people want to go from (A)tlanta to (B)eijing
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:43 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:
DL can't use KE's connections to China.


Wrong. Connections are perfectly fine... but KE keeps all the revenue for ICN/China segments.


Ah got it. Do they use DL flight numbers or is this literally combining a KE segment and a DL segment? Why would DL offer this kind of itinerary in lieu of pushing people through PVG?


There are many reasons why pax would chose connecting in ICN vs. PVG, the top two being:
1) There are two types of flights ex-PVG, esp. intra-China: delayed and cancelled ... "for weather".
2) Pax may have business in Korea, or has a multicity in Asia. I "hub" from ICN if I have business requiring, e.g., CTS, HND, FUK. Wouldn't think of doing that from PVG (see reason 1).
 
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c933103
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:49 pm

Bilateral limit, stage length, and lack of reason for Chinese individuals to travel to area around Atlanta
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MastaHanky
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:01 pm

SonaSounds wrote:

The OP probably saw this article and asked the question: https://www.anna.aero/2019/03/06/100-ro ... 1-86861489


That’s an interesting article. Given how much O&D there is between LAX and BKK, it really demonstrates how atrocious the yield is that they don’t bother with a non-stop.
 
klakzky123
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:41 pm

winginit wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:
DL can't use KE's connections to China.


Wrong. Connections are perfectly fine... but KE keeps all the revenue for ICN/China segments.


That’s correct, but it’s worth pointing out that DL can’t place their code on KE flights to China so connections are limited to interline.


Ah ok. So you can only create those bookings via GDS then. That's different than what I was implying. My point was that Delta didn't offer flights to China via ICN through its booking channels. Instead, DL offers connections via MU and CZ if you book directly.

However, I noticed that the reverse isn't true. I can go on KE's website and book all sorts of one stop US-China flights via ICN. KE isn't bound by the same restriction and can put KE flight numbers on DL TPAC flights that connect onto China bound flights from ICN. So, as a business traveler, there is a way to get a seamless direct booking to China via ICN. It just requires you to book through KE instead of DL.
 
winginit
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:45 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
winginit wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:

Wrong. Connections are perfectly fine... but KE keeps all the revenue for ICN/China segments.


That’s correct, but it’s worth pointing out that DL can’t place their code on KE flights to China so connections are limited to interline.


Ah ok. So you can only create those bookings via GDS then. That's different than what I was implying. My point was that Delta didn't offer flights to China via ICN through its booking channels. Instead, DL offers connections via MU and CZ if you book directly.

However, I noticed that the reverse isn't true. I can go on KE's website and book all sorts of one stop US-China flights via ICN. KE isn't bound by the same restriction and can put KE flight numbers on DL TPAC flights that connect onto China bound flights from ICN. So, as a business traveler, there is a way to get a seamless direct booking to China via ICN. It just requires you to book through KE instead of DL.


That’s correct.

Possible: KE PEK-ICN connecting to KE ICN-ATL
Possible: KE PEK-ICN connecting to KE*DL ICN-ATL
Not Possible: DL*KE PEK-ICN connecting to either of those
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:51 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
Ah ok. So you can only create those bookings via GDS then. That's different than what I was implying. My point was that Delta didn't offer flights to China via ICN through its booking channels. Instead, DL offers connections via MU and CZ if you book directly.


Not true either. Via dummy book I was able to see some US-China itinerary on DL's website via KE on ICN. They're interline flights, though, i.e. it's a ticket with a DL sector and a KE sector, rather than a complete DL sector via codeshare on MU/CZ.

For example, if you search ATL->XIY on DL's website, you'll see DL185 to PVG then DL6507 (Which is MU522) to XIY, but for ATL-ICN-XIY it's DL27 to KE807.

On the flip side, you can also buy a KE-code ticket on KE's website, where DL27 become KE5036.

The bottom line is, DL can certainly sell KE flight to PRC as part of US-China itinerary via interline agreement.
 
klakzky123
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:05 am

Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:56 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:
Ah ok. So you can only create those bookings via GDS then. That's different than what I was implying. My point was that Delta didn't offer flights to China via ICN through its booking channels. Instead, DL offers connections via MU and CZ if you book directly.


Not true either. Via dummy book I was able to see some US-China itinerary on DL's website via KE on ICN. They're interline flights, though, i.e. it's a ticket with a DL sector and a KE sector, rather than a complete DL sector via codeshare on MU/CZ.

For example, if you search ATL->XIY on DL's website, you'll see DL185 to PVG then DL6507 (Which is MU522) to XIY, but for ATL-ICN-XIY it's DL27 to KE807.

On the flip side, you can also buy a KE-code ticket on KE's website, where DL27 become KE5036.


Ah that's really interesting. Totally depends on the airport apparently. I was using MSP and DL presents no options to connect via ICN but as you point out, they do with ATL.

Anyway, enough with my being off topic. But good to see that DL is still offering routes via ICN. I'd much rather do that than fly via PVG.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:03 pm

A through tix on either DL or KE stock will allow your bags to be checked through to final destination.
Splitting the tix means doing the C&I drill x2 in ICN (collect bags streetside and recheck).
 
nomorerjs
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:03 pm

DL doesn't fly this route due to:
1) Bilateral agreement has limited frequencies
2) Easy connections via DTW
3) Would lose a ton of $
4) PEK slots would be a joke (see AA ORD-PEK slots, which DL can have)
 
ITSTours
Posts: 585
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Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:18 am

WPvsMW wrote:
A through tix on either DL or KE stock will allow your bags to be checked through to final destination.
Splitting the tix means doing the C&I drill x2 in ICN (collect bags streetside and recheck).


Not true. Delta's Through-Check Baggage Policy:

"In cases as noted below, when more than one ticket is presented, Delta will continue to through-check baggage from the origin to the destination.
Delta ticket plus a ticket on the Delta partner airlines listed below:
Aeromexico (AM)
Air France (AF)
Alitalia (AZ)
China Eastern (MU)
GOL (G3)
Jet Airways (9W)
KLM (KL)
Korean Air (KE)
Virgin Atlantic (VS)
Virgin Australia (VA)"

Delta will through-check to KE segments even if separately ticketed.
KE will through-check without a single hesitation. To DL, AA, AS, B6...
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2252
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:44 am

I stand corrected. It's OneWorld that doesn't through-check on different tickets from OW members.
 
simairlinenet
Posts: 817
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:24 am

Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:33 pm

It's not just PEK. If you look at the list of the 10 busiest airports in the world, all of them are connected to each other--except ATL. ATL has no flights to PEK, DXB, HND, and HKG. PVG itself was only a recent resumption.
 
Delta28L
Posts: 340
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:00 pm

Re: Why is there no Atlanta to Beijing flight?

Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:30 pm

HND would come if delta can get some of the new slots into HND under the new japan-USA agreement for expanded service. DXB was served before but dropped due to demand and fuel costs and competition. HKG would be a really long flight and delta could funnel passengers through ICN.

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