bluefrog
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:56 pm

don't understand this flight ,surely a stop in SNN makes it longer to get to the "city"than iether LHR /LGW crazy to use it
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:30 pm

UA857 wrote:
Should BA operate their London City to New York flight to LaGuardia?



No! The perimeter rule forbids it. Also the runways at LGA are rather short for carrying enough fuel for a transatlantic A318.
 
GuruJanitor
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:32 pm

tphuang wrote:
GuruJanitor wrote:

Yes but the people taking BA1 aren't getting on the Airtrain to the LIRR at the end of their trip, nor are they hailing a cab in the cabstand, they are likely getting into pre arranged car services. I live on the UES and from personal experience, the Triboro to the FDR is a much better route to drive than the Belt or the Van Wyck to the LIE at 5:30pm on a week day (when BA1 gets in). It may not be that much further geographically, but the driving time disparity is enormous. That is why most domestic business travel still heads into LGA, despite all its other shortcomings.

That being said, the most logical reason beyond the perimiter rule why this wouldn't work was stated above, you can't reaccommodate passengers at LGA if the flight goes tech as easy as you could at JFK.


I can't say for BA1, but the vast majority of people flying J on JFK-LHR and vast majority of people flying to LGA are not getting pre-aranged car services. I also can't say for 5:30 pm since I rarely fly out at that hour, but at the hours I do fly out of, JFK is anywhere up to 30 minutes further out than LGA by car, which when factor in congestion in the taxi line at terminal B and the new car-ride rules make things a lot more even. Now getting to the airport, I would agree with you that LGA is closer for people working in midtown area.

But depending on where you live in the city, the difference really isn't as large as some people make it out to be.


I don't disagree with you regarding the average J passenger on LHR-JFK, but the OP is regarding BA1, which does get in around 5pm if on time, and is largely used by paid business travelers who are, whether it is their own dime or not, seeking a comfortable and convenient travel experience. So I'd be willing to bet that most regular passengers on the route are in fact getting car services. The entire premise of the flight is convenience, and let's face it a cab stand or the LIRR to the subway are not terribly convenient. You're absolutely right when referring to really any average J passenger arriving in NYC, but I don't really think those flying on BA1 are "average" J passengers. We're just nitpicking at this point anyway though.
 
LeoNYC
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:52 pm

Antarius wrote:
The other thing to consider is, well, LGA. Arriving in an all J class aircraft from overseas into LGA is like rolling into a slum in a Bentley.

JFK leaves much to be desired, but it isnt a slum like LaGuardia.
As a New Yorker I can tell you (please don't tell anyone, I want to keep this as a secret) LaGuardia is much, much better and easier than JFK for the very simple reason that it's much smaller, and the lines are shorter (especially TSA Pre-Check). And it's closer to Manhattan also. Recently I flew into JFK from San Francisco on Delta. Literally had to walk about a mile to just get the hell out of the terminal. I can't imagine an elderly person walk so much. And then you pay more money and it takes twice or even 3 times as long to get to Manhattan, since Van Vyck expressway is usually jammed.

I actually miss the old main terminal B that they are now replacing. It was ugly and looked like it belonged in the 70s, but because each arm/concourse has its own TSA check and because it was small, getting in and out of the airport literally took minutes. You can step out of the plan and be in a taxi/car service 3 minutes later. Impossible at JFK or EWR.
 
tphuang
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:24 pm

LeoNYC wrote:
Antarius wrote:
The other thing to consider is, well, LGA. Arriving in an all J class aircraft from overseas into LGA is like rolling into a slum in a Bentley.

JFK leaves much to be desired, but it isnt a slum like LaGuardia.
As a New Yorker I can tell you (please don't tell anyone, I want to keep this as a secret) LaGuardia is much, much better and easier than JFK for the very simple reason that it's much smaller, and the lines are shorter (especially TSA Pre-Check). And it's closer to Manhattan also. Recently I flew into JFK from San Francisco on Delta. Literally had to walk about a mile to just get the hell out of the terminal. I can't imagine an elderly person walk so much. And then you pay more money and it takes twice or even 3 times as long to get to Manhattan, since Van Vyck expressway is usually jammed.

I actually miss the old main terminal B that they are now replacing. It was ugly and looked like it belonged in the 70s, but because each arm/concourse has its own TSA check and because it was small, getting in and out of the airport literally took minutes. You can step out of the plan and be in a taxi/car service 3 minutes later. Impossible at JFK or EWR.


it really depends on which terminal you are at. Terminal 7 where BA operates has super short lines and short time to the curb from landing. The only comparable at LGA in MAT.
 
LeoNYC
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:50 pm

tphuang wrote:
it really depends on which terminal you are at. Terminal 7 where BA operates has super short lines and short time to the curb from landing. The only comparable at LGA in MAT.
Agreed. Terminal 7 is quite compact. But JetBlue's Terminal 5 is also quite extensive and the TSA lines are notoriously long.
 
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FCOTSTW
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:01 pm

It would not be cost-effective for BA. They would have to buy gates and hire / move personnel to LGA. On the other hand, BA enjoys from economies of scale by serving the flights at JFK, where the combination of light load / high revenue improves the bottom line.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:02 pm

NTLDaz wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
There’s no perimeter rule at the weekend seemingly . Would be interesting to see EI launch weekend flights to LGA to see if there’s any revenue premiums ... the logistics of flipping a couple of A321LR flights to LGA are easy


Why have split ops ? JFK is not the end of the world. It arguably has better transport links than LGA.


That is what I was thinking. LGA may be physically closer to the city. But JFK has access to Jamaica station and its express train into Manhattan. It can also get people into Brooklyn via Howard Beach station. afaik LGA has a bus link???
 
Bhoy
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:38 pm

bluefrog wrote:
don't understand this flight ,surely a stop in SNN makes it longer to get to the "city"than iether LHR /LGW crazy to use it


The advantage is, if you are coming from an Office in Canary Wharf, it's 22 minutes to LCY on the Jubilee/DLR, as opposed to (currently) just over 1 hour to LHR, via Tube/Train or Taxi.

Minimum Check-in time at LCY is 20 mins opposed to 60 mins at LHR.

During the scheduled 55 minute at SNN, Passengers take advantage of CBP Pre-Clearance, so arrive at JFK as 'domestic' passengers, and don't have to queue at Immigration there, so can leave the Baggage Hall as soon as any bags they've checked-in is delivered.

The A318 admittedly doesn't cruise quite as fast as a Widebody, but depending on the size of queue at JFK CBP, it can be minutes faster in transit Office door in Canary Wharf to Terminal door at JFK.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:43 pm

The Elizabeth Line might change the time line some next year.

GF
 
gsg013
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:12 pm

I do think that eventually this flight is either stopped or changed to a different aircraft... I see the Airbus A220 could be the right plane for the route... I would love to see BA do something out of the box as it is really a unique flight and only 30 pax I wonder if something like LCY-TEB could work? For those who want they could then connect to manhattan via helicopter.
 
leftcoast8
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:49 am

Those going to the city on business will usually take a taxi or a car service into Manhattan. By car, it's a wash between JFK and Newark
 
NTLDaz
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:57 am

afcjets wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:
JFK is not the end of the world. It arguably has better transport links than LGA.


Someone paying for J class doesn’t need to take the subway into Manhattan.


I was replying to the suggestion that EI try LGA out of DUB where the majority of passengers will be flying Y.
 
N649DL
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:57 am

Cubsrule wrote:
Perimeter Rule?


There are ways to get around that. For instance the Saturday services out of LGA past the perimeter and DEN is grandfathered in.

I'd be more curious if the size of LGA's runways would prevent the range of such a route if it wasn't a low density 757.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:59 am

N649DL wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Perimeter Rule?


There are ways to get around that. For instance the Saturday services out of LGA past the perimeter and DEN is grandfathered in.

I'd be more curious if the size of LGA's runways would prevent the range of such a route if it wasn't a low density 757.


A normal density 752 could do LGA-LON most days. I can’t pull up numbers, but a 763ER actually might be able to do it.
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QueenoftheSkies
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:12 am

LeoNYC wrote:
Antarius wrote:
The other thing to consider is, well, LGA. Arriving in an all J class aircraft from overseas into LGA is like rolling into a slum in a Bentley.

JFK leaves much to be desired, but it isnt a slum like LaGuardia.
As a New Yorker I can tell you (please don't tell anyone, I want to keep this as a secret) LaGuardia is much, much better and easier than JFK for the very simple reason that it's much smaller, and the lines are shorter (especially TSA Pre-Check). And it's closer to Manhattan also. Recently I flew into JFK from San Francisco on Delta. Literally had to walk about a mile to just get the hell out of the terminal. I can't imagine an elderly person walk so much. And then you pay more money and it takes twice or even 3 times as long to get to Manhattan, since Van Vyck expressway is usually jammed.

I actually miss the old main terminal B that they are now replacing. It was ugly and looked like it belonged in the 70s, but because each arm/concourse has its own TSA check and because it was small, getting in and out of the airport literally took minutes. You can step out of the plan and be in a taxi/car service 3 minutes later. Impossible at JFK or EWR.


Out of the terminal quick only to join a mile long taxi line. LGA is not all that convenient.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:21 am

QueenoftheSkies wrote:
LeoNYC wrote:
Antarius wrote:
The other thing to consider is, well, LGA. Arriving in an all J class aircraft from overseas into LGA is like rolling into a slum in a Bentley.

JFK leaves much to be desired, but it isnt a slum like LaGuardia.
As a New Yorker I can tell you (please don't tell anyone, I want to keep this as a secret) LaGuardia is much, much better and easier than JFK for the very simple reason that it's much smaller, and the lines are shorter (especially TSA Pre-Check). And it's closer to Manhattan also. Recently I flew into JFK from San Francisco on Delta. Literally had to walk about a mile to just get the hell out of the terminal. I can't imagine an elderly person walk so much. And then you pay more money and it takes twice or even 3 times as long to get to Manhattan, since Van Vyck expressway is usually jammed.

I actually miss the old main terminal B that they are now replacing. It was ugly and looked like it belonged in the 70s, but because each arm/concourse has its own TSA check and because it was small, getting in and out of the airport literally took minutes. You can step out of the plan and be in a taxi/car service 3 minutes later. Impossible at JFK or EWR.


Out of the terminal quick only to join a mile long taxi line. LGA is not all that convenient.


Especially with the construction of the new terminal. Next time I fly to NYC from Texas, I'll fly to EWR.
 
trueblew
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:25 am

Antarius wrote:
JettNC wrote:
There are no US Customs and Immigration facilities at LaGuardia.


On the inbound, the flight stops in SNN for refueling, at which time the passengers are processed by CBP as part of pre-clearance.The arrival into JFK is an equivalent to a domestic flight.

The issue is the perimeter rule, not CBP/Immigration.


CBP pre-cleared flights must land at CBP-staffed ports of entry regardless.
 
FlyHPN
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:36 am

Cubsrule wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Perimeter Rule?


There are ways to get around that. For instance the Saturday services out of LGA past the perimeter and DEN is grandfathered in.

I'd be more curious if the size of LGA's runways would prevent the range of such a route if it wasn't a low density 757.


A normal density 752 could do LGA-LON most days. I can’t pull up numbers, but a 763ER actually might be able to do it.


The challenge for those aircraft would be the LCY side, it has a lot of restrictions. The largest plane that flies in to LCY from what I can find is the A318.
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:46 am

trueblew wrote:
Antarius wrote:
JettNC wrote:
There are no US Customs and Immigration facilities at LaGuardia.


On the inbound, the flight stops in SNN for refueling, at which time the passengers are processed by CBP as part of pre-clearance.The arrival into JFK is an equivalent to a domestic flight.

The issue is the perimeter rule, not CBP/Immigration.


CBP pre-cleared flights must land at CBP-staffed ports of entry regardless.

Which still makes it a moot point because AC manages to put 21 international flights into LGA a day.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
Andy33
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:54 am

bluefrog wrote:
don't understand this flight ,surely a stop in SNN makes it longer to get to the "city"than iether LHR /LGW crazy to use it


The departure from LCY makes the journey to the airport significantly shorter for people in some parts of London, especially the main financial districts, and the passage through LCY is inevitably much quicker than through LHR or LGW, because it is a much smaller airport. Then, the SNN stop means that passengers go through US preclearance there and arrive in the USA as domestic passengers. So reduced time at the LON end and reduced time at the NYC end compensate for increased journey time. Nonetheless, it seems unlikely that the route will survive much into the 2020s as the forthcoming Crossrail/Elizabeth Line heavy rail link will remove some of the travel to airport time advantage for a proportion of passengers, allowing the high-frequency BA/AA service from LHR to siphon off traffic.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:15 pm

YYZORD wrote:
Maybe if they got fifth freedom from YYZ or YUL like CX has from YVR, otherwise I don't see this being a chance.

BA (well, the UK in general) already holds fifth freedom rights between Canada and the US.

My first VC-10 flight was on BA (BOAC then) from ORD-YUL. They also used to fly YYZ-JKF with a 757, I believe it continued to BHX.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Antarius
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:45 pm

trueblew wrote:
Antarius wrote:
JettNC wrote:
There are no US Customs and Immigration facilities at LaGuardia.


On the inbound, the flight stops in SNN for refueling, at which time the passengers are processed by CBP as part of pre-clearance.The arrival into JFK is an equivalent to a domestic flight.

The issue is the perimeter rule, not CBP/Immigration.


CBP pre-cleared flights must land at CBP-staffed ports of entry regardless.


Then how do Air Canada, American and West Jet fly YYZ-LGA.

Either LGA has a CBP staff or that isnt a requirement.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN DEN DOH BLR MAA KTM YYZ MEX
 
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hOMSaR
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:57 pm

While the answer to the question in the thread is clearly “no,” I can’t help but notice that the same OP also asked a similarly worded question about UA moving it’s EWR hub to JFK. In other words, he seems to think airlines should up and move their NY operations across town just because...
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word.
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A321neoLR is also unnecessary. It's simply A321LR.
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global2
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:41 pm

LeoNYC wrote:
Antarius wrote:
The other thing to consider is, well, LGA. Arriving in an all J class aircraft from overseas into LGA is like rolling into a slum in a Bentley.

JFK leaves much to be desired, but it isnt a slum like LaGuardia.
As a New Yorker I can tell you (please don't tell anyone, I want to keep this as a secret) LaGuardia is much, much better and easier than JFK for the very simple reason that it's much smaller, and the lines are shorter (especially TSA Pre-Check). And it's closer to Manhattan also. Recently I flew into JFK from San Francisco on Delta. Literally had to walk about a mile to just get the hell out of the terminal. I can't imagine an elderly person walk so much. And then you pay more money and it takes twice or even 3 times as long to get to Manhattan, since Van Vyck expressway is usually jammed.

I actually miss the old main terminal B that they are now replacing. It was ugly and looked like it belonged in the 70s, but because each arm/concourse has its own TSA check and because it was small, getting in and out of the airport literally took minutes. You can step out of the plan and be in a taxi/car service 3 minutes later. Impossible at JFK or EWR.


I agree with all of your points, including the marathon walk required on DL (I thought I had walked all the way from the plane to Manhattan). In Terminal B, AA's concourse was actually much better than the other three IMO. And LGA's "slum" condition is rapidly being changed to something that's all shiny and brand new anyway.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:53 pm

gsg013 wrote:
I do think that eventually this flight is either stopped or changed to a different aircraft... I see the Airbus A220 could be the right plane for the route... I would love to see BA do something out of the box as it is really a unique flight and only 30 pax I wonder if something like LCY-TEB could work? For those who want they could then connect to manhattan via helicopter.

I asked the same question on the first page but everyone spouting off about perimeter limits ignored it.

TEB has a weight limit. If that could get a waiver for the one flight then it could be a breeze. Fly in, quick walk through to the baggage haul and customs, then straight into a black car. Similarly coming back to the UK could be fast with a minimum check-in time.
 
gsg013
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:35 pm

Channex757 wrote:
gsg013 wrote:
I do think that eventually this flight is either stopped or changed to a different aircraft... I see the Airbus A220 could be the right plane for the route... I would love to see BA do something out of the box as it is really a unique flight and only 30 pax I wonder if something like LCY-TEB could work? For those who want they could then connect to manhattan via helicopter.

I asked the same question on the first page but everyone spouting off about perimeter limits ignored it.

TEB has a weight limit. If that could get a waiver for the one flight then it could be a breeze. Fly in, quick walk through to the baggage haul and customs, then straight into a black car. Similarly coming back to the UK could be fast with a minimum check-in time.


I know it's a hypothetical and I know TEB isn't set up for commercial flights (But does have immigration/Customs) but I think a one off executive flight could work.. the Airbus A220-100 has a MTOW of 134,000 LB I believe the weight limit at TEB is supposed to be 99,999 lb which is the G650 at MTOW however I have already seen the Embraer Lineage 1000 many times at TEB which has a MTOW of 120,000 LB I could see the A220 in all biz class being less than the MTOW of 134,000 if it only is carrying 25-30 Pax. Now that would be a real premium service for execs wanting to get between NYC-- LON and a good alternative to private which can run $100,000 each way on a Heavy Jet.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:51 pm

Some issues:

TEB doesn’t have any terminal setup, the PANYNJ prohibits scheduled operations there. Seeing as they impose the perimeter rule on LGA to “protect” the international statusof JFK and EWR, I doubt they’d open up TEB to scheduled international ops.

There’s little room to build a airline terminal and TSA inspection facility. The Customs office, just north of Atlantic Aviation are designed for clearing aircraft to park in front of the building, hardly an airline operation. Or they board the plane at the other FBOs.

The 100,000 pound limit is “actual weight”. Many of the larger bizjets have supplements for 99,999 and 74,999 pound weights to allow operations at limiting fields. Buy the service bulletin ($25,000-ish), post some placards and your “too heavy” plane suddenly isn’t for that day’s operation. I’d bet Embraer has a supplement for the Lineage.

GF
 
YYZORD
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:12 am

You ever heard of the term "Preclearance?"

Antarius wrote:
trueblew wrote:
Antarius wrote:

On the inbound, the flight stops in SNN for refueling, at which time the passengers are processed by CBP as part of pre-clearance.The arrival into JFK is an equivalent to a domestic flight.

The issue is the perimeter rule, not CBP/Immigration.


CBP pre-cleared flights must land at CBP-staffed ports of entry regardless.


Then how do Air Canada, American and West Jet fly YYZ-LGA.

Either LGA has a CBP staff or that isnt a requirement.
 
Arion640
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:39 pm

Channex757 wrote:
gsg013 wrote:
I do think that eventually this flight is either stopped or changed to a different aircraft... I see the Airbus A220 could be the right plane for the route... I would love to see BA do something out of the box as it is really a unique flight and only 30 pax I wonder if something like LCY-TEB could work? For those who want they could then connect to manhattan via helicopter.

I asked the same question on the first page but everyone spouting off about perimeter limits ignored it.

TEB has a weight limit. If that could get a waiver for the one flight then it could be a breeze. Fly in, quick walk through to the baggage haul and customs, then straight into a black car. Similarly coming back to the UK could be fast with a minimum check-in time.


When you mentioned TEB earlier in the discussion - I thought you were joking.

In my opinion, the flight is poorly timed arriving at 15:30 in the afternoon. By the time you get into Manhattan there’s only around 1-1.5 hours of Business time that day left. From my armchair CEO stand point, it probably needs to be getting off the runway at LCY around 8-830am UK time to arrive at JFK before lunchtime. Is there a reason it doesn’t depart until Midday, CBP operating hours at SNN?

The return is pretty much spot on, allowing you to be in the Business hub of London with enough time to shower and eat breakfast before starting the day.
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Channex757
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:17 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Some issues:

TEB doesn’t have any terminal setup, the PANYNJ prohibits scheduled operations there. Seeing as they impose the perimeter rule on LGA to “protect” the international statusof JFK and EWR, I doubt they’d open up TEB to scheduled international ops.

There’s little room to build a airline terminal and TSA inspection facility. The Customs office, just north of Atlantic Aviation are designed for clearing aircraft to park in front of the building, hardly an airline operation. Or they board the plane at the other FBOs.

The 100,000 pound limit is “actual weight”. Many of the larger bizjets have supplements for 99,999 and 74,999 pound weights to allow operations at limiting fields. Buy the service bulletin ($25,000-ish), post some placards and your “too heavy” plane suddenly isn’t for that day’s operation. I’d bet Embraer has a supplement for the Lineage.

GF

It is, after all, just a slightly larger business jet so thirty people maximum isn't too heavy to be handled by a contracted FBO. I could not envisage BA building a terminal just for this, but having someone handle the flight for them would not need too much bricks and mortar work.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3347
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Re: Would it be better if BA flew their LCY-NY flight to LGA?

Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:32 pm

The FBOs would not be capable of handling them—no TSA Security, no building for passengers held quarantined post-security. Have you been to TEB? Security for Part 91/135 wholly different program than scheduled airlines.

GF

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Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos