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TWA772LR
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Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:30 am

I just watched a video on Youtube where the host interviewed the CEO of Boom Supersonic. Early in the video they show various models of the Overture aircraft in various airline liveries, including BR, BA, and B6. Are these airlines legitimately interested in Boom? Or are they just entertaining the sales reps?

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4NNSb5j_ao
Models at 2:22
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
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NYPECO
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:35 am

Most likely marketing purposes only.
 
2175301
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:28 am

TWA772LR wrote:
I just watched a video on Youtube where the host interviewed the CEO of Boom Supersonic. Early in the video they show various models of the Overture aircraft in various airline liveries, including BR, BA, and B6. Are these airlines legitimately interested in Boom? Or are they just entertaining the sales reps?

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4NNSb5j_ao
Models at 2:22


My understanding is that there are in fact several airlines legitimately interested... if Boom Supersonic (I believe they have had a name change) can clear the regulatory hurdles, raise the $4-$6 Billion they will need to launch it, and actually get it into production.

It would fill a small niche for trans Atlantic or trans Pacific. Possibly from North America to South America as well, etc.

Not sure it will actually be profitable (as in pay back its investors); but, likely half of the investors won't care about that... they like to fund the next generation of cool stuff and understand that they may get little, if any, financial return.

I actually think that they have the aircraft right sized for the market. Concord was too large.

Have a great day,
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:53 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
and B6

Certainly can't see that one.

An airline that's barely (if the current hype proves prescient) tiptoeing into timidly flying a narrowbody between the world's 2nd largest aviation market to the world's largest..... is going to go supersonic?

Gonna go with: no.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Noshow
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:57 pm

Didn't he announce Japan Airlines to be some early marketing partner being interested in options or similar?
They had a "final assembly" picture from some real Airbus narrow body final assembly line on their website where their planned planes where placed inside the pic instead of A320s.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:24 pm

How about LCY-LGA and LCY-DCA shuttle
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:45 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
How about LCY-LGA and LCY-DCA shuttle

Preclearance and incredible runway performance would be needed...

...why bother?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
MavyWavyATR
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:48 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
I just watched a video on Youtube where the host interviewed the CEO of Boom Supersonic. Early in the video they show various models of the Overture aircraft in various airline liveries, including BR, BA, and B6. Are these airlines legitimately interested in Boom? Or are they just entertaining the sales reps?

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4NNSb5j_ao
Models at 2:22


Out've all those shown in the video at that mark; the only realistic ones I could see are BA and JL.
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:59 am

LAX772LR wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
How about LCY-LGA and LCY-DCA shuttle

Preclearance and incredible runway performance would be needed...

...why bother?

It’s hard to consider you an enthusiast when you’re always so negative and trying to knock people down. Chill out elf lord
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
travaz
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:05 am

While I would love to see this Aircraft I think 4-6 Billion is a bit low to take the plane into production.
 
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william
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:18 am

Didn't Airbus or Boeing "invest" in this company?

Demo will fly this year......Interesting.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:46 am

william wrote:
Didn't Airbus or Boeing "invest" in this company?

Demo will fly this year......Interesting.

Boeing invested in Aerion, and I believe Zunum.
When wasn't America great?


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American 767
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:57 am

LAX772LR wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
How about LCY-LGA and LCY-DCA shuttle

Preclearance and incredible runway performance would be needed...

...why bother?


Preclearance would have to be done in SNN or in DUB.
Ben Soriano
 
johns624
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:14 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
How about LCY-LGA and LCY-DCA shuttle

Preclearance and incredible runway performance would be needed...

...why bother?

It’s hard to consider you an enthusiast when you’re always so negative and trying to knock people down. Chill out elf lord
He was replying to the person who thinks that Exeter, UK will be the next great world airport.
 
johns624
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:15 am

American 767 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
How about LCY-LGA and LCY-DCA shuttle

Preclearance and incredible runway performance would be needed...

...why bother?


Preclearance would have to be done in SNN or in DUB.
What would be the point then?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:32 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Preclearance and incredible runway performance would be needed...
...why bother?

It’s hard to consider you an enthusiast when you’re always so negative and trying to knock people down. Chill out elf lord

Good thing that no one gives a crap about what you "consider" then, isn't it? ;)

I mean, a thousand pardons for bridling anyone's galloping "enthusiasm" with mean ol' fact..... but with that said: you may wish to review Reply#16 to see exactly how a significant percentage of the public who aren't aviation geeks (yet who'd be needed to sustain such a futile operation), would react to the FACT of what I just said.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Lufthansa
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:56 am

there is a market at for this if they can get the operating costs down to what they claim. JL to America.... and possibly London if they went over Siberia stoped for fuel in HEL and detoured over the Baltic Sea on the way to LHR. Qantas and Air NZ are no brainers, even with refuelling stops maybe in PPT and MEX you could easily halve if not more the time to NYC, Emirates has a few long haul routes that could easily do with it and there's no issue over the Indian Ocean with refuelling in Singapore, continuing on to Australia (if I recall correctly there's no issues with supersonic flight over the Australian desert) and if they do it there's no way in hell Singapore Airlines will be left out of the act. They can do the Kangaroo route via the Red Sea or the Persian Gulf then over the mediterranean. That in itself is a significant market and there's no way BA wouldn't restart LHR- NYC because if they didn't Virgin would jump on it. With that the French would jump onboard as a matter of National Pride as there's no way they are going to sit back if the UK goes supersonic again and they're not. So you have a decent market right there. It might take more then they think though. The best thing that could happen is a big Aerospace company takes a stake in it to ensure global support and confidence.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:16 am

Lufthansa wrote:
there is a market at for this if they can get the operating costs down to what they claim. JL to America.... and possibly London if they went over Siberia stoped for fuel in HEL and detoured over the Baltic Sea on the way to LHR. Qantas and Air NZ are no brainers, even with refuelling stops maybe in PPT and MEX you could easily halve if not more the time to NYC, Emirates has a few long haul routes that could easily do with it and there's no issue over the Indian Ocean with refuelling in Singapore, continuing on to Australia (if I recall correctly there's no issues with supersonic flight over the Australian desert) and if they do it there's no way in hell Singapore Airlines will be left out of the act. They can do the Kangaroo route via the Red Sea or the Persian Gulf then over the mediterranean. That in itself is a significant market and there's no way BA wouldn't restart LHR- NYC because if they didn't Virgin would jump on it. With that the French would jump onboard as a matter of National Pride as there's no way they are going to sit back if the UK goes supersonic again and they're not. So you have a decent market right there. It might take more then they think though. The best thing that could happen is a big Aerospace company takes a stake in it to ensure global support and confidence.

While all lovely thoughts, it ignores a lot of issues of that haven't really changed since the days that nearly every one of these routings was marketed for Concorde.

Chief among them being the irrationality of politics and NIMBYs. Even if this thing is as quiet as the OEM's wildest dreams would have it be: that doesn't mean countries are going to play nice.

I'm hoping for the best, but cognizant of how difficult it's going to be to get this off the ground (literally) even *IF* the aircraft meets/exceeds spec!
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:13 am

william wrote:
Didn't Airbus or Boeing "invest" in this company?

Demo will fly this year......Interesting.


Have you seen what the demo actually is though compared to what they actually want to build?

Anyway, best of luck to them.
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Arion640
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:16 am

Lufthansa wrote:
there is a market at for this if they can get the operating costs down to what they claim. JL to America.... and possibly London if they went over Siberia stoped for fuel in HEL and detoured over the Baltic Sea on the way to LHR. Qantas and Air NZ are no brainers, even with refuelling stops maybe in PPT and MEX you could easily halve if not more the time to NYC, Emirates has a few long haul routes that could easily do with it and there's no issue over the Indian Ocean with refuelling in Singapore, continuing on to Australia (if I recall correctly there's no issues with supersonic flight over the Australian desert) and if they do it there's no way in hell Singapore Airlines will be left out of the act. They can do the Kangaroo route via the Red Sea or the Persian Gulf then over the mediterranean. That in itself is a significant market and there's no way BA wouldn't restart LHR- NYC because if they didn't Virgin would jump on it. With that the French would jump onboard as a matter of National Pride as there's no way they are going to sit back if the UK goes supersonic again and they're not. So you have a decent market right there. It might take more then they think though. The best thing that could happen is a big Aerospace company takes a stake in it to ensure global support and confidence.


LON-NYC and PAR-NYC yes, but the plane is only 60 seats and anything more than that might be difficult to make pay.

It’s fair enough saying these airlines won’t want to be left out, but this plane has less seats than Concorde with the same problems existing. You should of seen the trouble BA had trying to set up Bahrain to Singapore, India and Malaysia kicked up a huge fuss. Shown In a promotional film from the day, BA wanted to set up LHR-Tokyo.

A supersonic Business Jet however, I can see this as something boom could become.
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:38 am

Arion640 wrote:
william wrote:
Didn't Airbus or Boeing "invest" in this company?

Demo will fly this year......Interesting.


Have you seen what the demo actually is though compared to what they actually want to build?

Anyway, best of luck to them.


I believe you misunderstand the importance of the scale demo aircraft.

With the possible exception of some of the companies building military fighters... there are things about supersonic flight that need to be fine tuned - and are only really discoverable with aircraft that fly, versus much smaller models in wind tunnels. The US Military started building the X planes for just that reason (and Chuck Yeager with the X-1 broke the sound barrier). They still build X planes - sometimes in conjunction with NASA just because the only way to find some things out is to fly an aircraft to test them.

From a technical perspective that scale demo aircraft will allow certain things to be fine tuned for the full size version - things that will likely make or break a full size version, Technically, it is a very smart move.

A second major effect is marketing. Flying a scale demo will attract investors that no computer generated aircraft will ever attract. I'd say it's also key to allowing "Boom" (or whatever its current name is) to be successful. I'd almost say its marketing genius, except that working concept vehicles have been used before to raise funding necessary to finalize design and start production (most often in the specialty automotive field - most often in the past).

I believe that it is both of these reasons why the Boom aircraft might realistically make it into production. The other companies will not have the publicity and marketing effects... and the kind of investors who will invest in such technology is limited. They will invest in the one that looks best to them... and that demonstrator will be a very solid evidence that this is a serious attempt that just needs funding.

Have a great day,
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:42 am

Arion640 wrote:
Lufthansa wrote:
there is a market at for this if they can get the operating costs down to what they claim. JL to America.... and possibly London if they went over Siberia stoped for fuel in HEL and detoured over the Baltic Sea on the way to LHR. Qantas and Air NZ are no brainers, even with refuelling stops maybe in PPT and MEX you could easily halve if not more the time to NYC, Emirates has a few long haul routes that could easily do with it and there's no issue over the Indian Ocean with refuelling in Singapore, continuing on to Australia (if I recall correctly there's no issues with supersonic flight over the Australian desert) and if they do it there's no way in hell Singapore Airlines will be left out of the act. They can do the Kangaroo route via the Red Sea or the Persian Gulf then over the mediterranean. That in itself is a significant market and there's no way BA wouldn't restart LHR- NYC because if they didn't Virgin would jump on it. With that the French would jump onboard as a matter of National Pride as there's no way they are going to sit back if the UK goes supersonic again and they're not. So you have a decent market right there. It might take more then they think though. The best thing that could happen is a big Aerospace company takes a stake in it to ensure global support and confidence.


LON-NYC and PAR-NYC yes, but the plane is only 60 seats and anything more than that might be difficult to make pay.

It’s fair enough saying these airlines won’t want to be left out, but this plane has less seats than Concorde with the same problems existing. You should of seen the trouble BA had trying to set up Bahrain to Singapore, India and Malaysia kicked up a huge fuss. Shown In a promotional film from the day, BA wanted to set up LHR-Tokyo.

A supersonic Business Jet however, I can see this as something boom could become.


Oh yeah, people will love the idea of a supersonic business jet flying billionaires to resorts. Have you heard of AOC and her Green New Deal?

GF
 
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American 767
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:09 am

johns624 wrote:
American 767 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Preclearance and incredible runway performance would be needed...

...why bother?


Preclearance would have to be done in SNN or in DUB.


What would be the point then?


The point would be, in addition to pre clear passengers so that they can arrive at a domestic airport, to refuel since it wouldn't be able to take off out of LCY with a full load of fuel. Anyway, I don't see that happening with a supersonic jet, chances of that to happen are slim to none.
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Planeflyer
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:37 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Lufthansa wrote:
there is a market at for this if they can get the operating costs down to what they claim. JL to America.... and possibly London if they went over Siberia stoped for fuel in HEL and detoured over the Baltic Sea on the way to LHR. Qantas and Air NZ are no brainers, even with refuelling stops maybe in PPT and MEX you could easily halve if not more the time to NYC, Emirates has a few long haul routes that could easily do with it and there's no issue over the Indian Ocean with refuelling in Singapore, continuing on to Australia (if I recall correctly there's no issues with supersonic flight over the Australian desert) and if they do it there's no way in hell Singapore Airlines will be left out of the act. They can do the Kangaroo route via the Red Sea or the Persian Gulf then over the mediterranean. That in itself is a significant market and there's no way BA wouldn't restart LHR- NYC because if they didn't Virgin would jump on it. With that the French would jump onboard as a matter of National Pride as there's no way they are going to sit back if the UK goes supersonic again and they're not. So you have a decent market right there. It might take more then they think though. The best thing that could happen is a big Aerospace company takes a stake in it to ensure global support and confidence.


LON-NYC and PAR-NYC yes, but the plane is only 60 seats and anything more than that might be difficult to make pay.

It’s fair enough saying these airlines won’t want to be left out, but this plane has less seats than Concorde with the same problems existing. You should of seen the trouble BA had trying to set up Bahrain to Singapore, India and Malaysia kicked up a huge fuss. Shown In a promotional film from the day, BA wanted to set up LHR-Tokyo.

A supersonic Business Jet however, I can see this as something boom could become.


Oh yeah, people will love the idea of a supersonic business jet flying billionaires to resorts. Have you heard of AOC and her Green New Deal?

I love the idea.

For as difficult as supersonic travel will be to workout its a heck of a lot easier than any “idea” AOC has proposed.
 
flyforever
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:07 am

Arion640 wrote:
william wrote:
Didn't Airbus or Boeing "invest" in this company?

Demo will fly this year......Interesting.


Have you seen what the demo actually is though compared to what they actually want to build?

Anyway, best of luck to them.


That's the definition of demo otherwise it's called prototype.
they have to prove to the investor that they are doing things right. Not sure they can rise billions, but they raised millions in few years starting from nothing (the CEO did not know anything about airplane) ad if you check on LinkedIn, people working there are pretty cool (as a matter of fact I got an interview without success).

Best of luck to them, it's worth waiting and see.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:51 am

American 767 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
American 767 wrote:

Preclearance would have to be done in SNN or in DUB.


What would be the point then?


The point would be, in addition to pre clear passengers so that they can arrive at a domestic airport, to refuel since it wouldn't be able to take off out of LCY with a full load of fuel. Anyway, I don't see that happening with a supersonic jet, chances of that to happen are slim to none.


The Concorde was marginal for landing and takeoffs at major international airports like JFK, IAD, LHR, and CDG. There's no way even with improvements in aerodynamics and systems that Boom would be able to operate out of LCY. By the time Boom gets approved Crossrail should be completed in London making the trip from the financial district to Heathrow faster.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:39 am

American 767 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
American 767 wrote:

Preclearance would have to be done in SNN or in DUB.


What would be the point then?


The point would be, in addition to pre clear passengers so that they can arrive at a domestic airport, to refuel since it wouldn't be able to take off out of LCY with a full load of fuel.

You missed the context of that question:
It's "what would be the point of even introducing this service at those airports"
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Arion640
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:43 am

flyforever wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
william wrote:
Didn't Airbus or Boeing "invest" in this company?

Demo will fly this year......Interesting.


Have you seen what the demo actually is though compared to what they actually want to build?

Anyway, best of luck to them.


That's the definition of demo otherwise it's called prototype.
they have to prove to the investor that they are doing things right. Not sure they can rise billions, but they raised millions in few years starting from nothing (the CEO did not know anything about airplane) ad if you check on LinkedIn, people working there are pretty cool (as a matter of fact I got an interview without success).

Best of luck to them, it's worth waiting and see.


Compare Concordes prototype to a production aircraft and then compare booms prototype to what it actually wants to build. They are almost two different things.
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PW100
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:50 am

LAX772LR wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Preclearance and incredible runway performance would be needed...
...why bother?

It’s hard to consider you an enthusiast when you’re always so negative and trying to knock people down. Chill out elf lord

Good thing that no one gives a crap about what you "consider" then, isn't it? ;)


LOL. Great way to confirm exactly what jetblueguy22 was pointing out (and rest assured, he is by no means alone in his view . . .).
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Aesma
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:04 pm

Arion640 wrote:
flyforever wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Have you seen what the demo actually is though compared to what they actually want to build?

Anyway, best of luck to them.


That's the definition of demo otherwise it's called prototype.
they have to prove to the investor that they are doing things right. Not sure they can rise billions, but they raised millions in few years starting from nothing (the CEO did not know anything about airplane) ad if you check on LinkedIn, people working there are pretty cool (as a matter of fact I got an interview without success).

Best of luck to them, it's worth waiting and see.


Compare Concordes prototype to a production aircraft and then compare booms prototype to what it actually wants to build. They are almost two different things.


I think he's trying to argue that Boom needs to prove they're able to make an aircraft that can go supersonic. Concorde's designers had plenty of experience making supersonic aircraft.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Lufthansa
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:06 pm

I think some people are forgetting the Concorde, as glamorous as the Old Lady was, was designed using 1960s technology, we hadn't put a man on the moon, they were still using Abacus as there was no such thing as a pocket calculator, steam gages, the technology used was only slightly more advanced than the 707 or VC-10, your smart phone is far more powerful than what they worked with, there was no such thing as Composite materials to work with, high bypass turbofans hadn't come into service and where only just being developed, the world hand't seen high speed trains yet, Airbus didn't even exist, heck cars had carburettors as fuel injection hadn't been invented yet, there was no such thing as GPS or the internet or a mobile phone....

The Concorde, at least as far as I know for BA eventually became profitable DESPITE all of this. It's very likely the equation today is different. Remember there's companies out there building supersonic aircraft for militaries all around the world every day. The technology just isn't available to the public ATM.
 
emuwarveteran
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:08 pm

From Wikipedia:
"An unnamed European carrier holds options for 15 aircraft [...] At the 2017 Paris Air Show, 51 commitments were added for a backlog of 76 with significant deposits. In December 2017, Japan Airlines was confirmed to have pre-ordered up to 20 jets among the commitments to 76 from five airlines."

Japan Airlines has already pre-ordered the plane. The "unnamed European carrier" is probably British Airways. There are 56 other commitments and i'd bet it's pretty likely for EVA Air to be among them. JetBlue though I don't know, maybe they could use them as a fully Mint configured planes on their future transatlantic ventures but it seems really unlikely at least for now
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Raptormodeller
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:44 pm

I can see lufthansa jumping in and getting a few of these
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KlimaBXsst
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:38 pm

I am sure JetBlue is gaining a little expensive extensive experience with Mint should the day ever come a model of Overture becomes a mainline airliner.

A future transatlantic subsonic luxurious Mint bargain or a pricey Supersonic Seat?

“Optics, Niches, Players, and Marketing,” lead me to believe a certain airline known as the Worlds Favourite, To Fly, To Serve,” will capitalize upon the success of this beautiful Trijet should it come to fruition.

Innovators are often swallowed though.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Boom Attracting New Customers?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:38 pm

PW100 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:
It’s hard to consider you an enthusiast when you’re always so negative and trying to knock people down. Chill out elf lord

Good thing that no one gives a crap about what you "consider" then, isn't it? ;)

LOL. Great way to confirm exactly what jetblueguy22 was pointing out (and rest assured, he is by no means alone in his view . . .).

Way to miss the greater overall point:
No one cares how you feel about anything. Thus get a grip, get a life, and move on. Simple solution.



Lufthansa wrote:
I think some people are forgetting the Concorde, as glamorous as the Old Lady was, was designed using 1960s technology, we hadn't put a man on the moon, they were still using Abacus as there was no such thing as a pocket calculator, steam gages, the technology used was only slightly more advanced than the 707 or VC-10, your smart phone is far more powerful than what they worked with, there was no such thing as Composite materials to work with, high bypass turbofans hadn't come into service and where only just being developed, the world hand't seen high speed trains yet, Airbus didn't even exist, heck cars had carburettors as fuel injection hadn't been invented yet, there was no such thing as GPS or the internet or a mobile phone....

Yeah, but what perhaps even more people fail to realize, is that technology was the least of Concorde's limitations.
Most were politically or financially imposed... and much of that hasn't really changed in the half-century since, nor can new tech always address it. That's why this remains a tenuous proposal at best.

Wishing them all the luck, but those old demons still haunt.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil

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