a350lover
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Could Norwegian leave EWR at some point?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:25 pm

Considering the current situation of the airline/industry analyzing every possible cost to be cut down, I don't see much sense in keeping EWR operations to just BCN/FCO.

After the dropped services to Orly, they only operate a daily flight to both Fiumicino and Barcelona. Is just a matter of these couple of slots in JFK what prevents them of quitting Newark? I assume they have to maintain a "tiny" structure of ground assistance while in JFK they have rather a bigger "hub".

I don't see any reason in putting specifically these two routes in Newark... are maybe the ones "less" business focused?
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Could Norwegian leave EWR at some point?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:43 pm

Certainly they could.

As you said, the only reason they flew into Newark in the first place was lack of slots at JFK. But I can't imagine them being very happy with the landing and handling fees at Newark which are among the highest in the whole USA. JFK isn't cheap either, but Newark is even more expensive.

They might even move their entire New York operations to Stewart which is a whole lot cheaper than JFK or Newark and has plenty of capacity. But Norwegian isn't always smart in their choice of airports, so it's a bit unpredictable what they'll do.
 
a350lover
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Re: Could Norwegian leave EWR at some point?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:53 pm

From a cost perspective, Stewart would be fantastic for Norwegian.

Realistically, they would loose much of the market. Many other choices cheaper/nearly as cheap to Europe often. They need to remain in big airports, and MIA/SFO move I reckon proves that.
 
Cunard
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Re: Could Norwegian leave EWR at some point?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:15 pm

a350lover wrote:
From a cost perspective, Stewart would be fantastic for Norwegian.

Realistically, they would loose much of the market. Many other choices cheaper/nearly as cheap to Europe often. They need to remain in big airports, and MIA/SFO move I reckon proves that.


Stewart Airport doesn't seem to have been as fantastic for Norwegian as your suggesting considering that they have ceased several destinations.

In 2019 the only remaining destinations for Norwegian at Stewart Airport are,

Dublin, Edinburgh (ends 30 March 2019) and Bergen and Shannon which are both seasonal.

I don't see Norwegian expanding at Stewart Airport anytime sooner IMHO.
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A380MSN004
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Re: Could Norwegian leave EWR at some point?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:51 pm

SWF for Norwegian. They Will loose All their Biz clientele who enjoy the Norwegian Premium Eco.

On the paper it looks cool. In reality, don't think it Will happen unless SWF is linked with a fast train to NYC
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: Could Norwegian leave EWR at some point?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:54 pm

BCN and FCO had very high load factors for DY this year. Wouldn't make sense to lose them.
 
toltommy
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Re: Could Norwegian leave EWR at some point?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:22 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
BCN and FCO had very high load factors for DY this year. Wouldn't make sense to lose them.


High load factors don't mean everything. Yield can be sacrificed to get a high load factor. In that case, it may make sense to deploy the assets elsewhere. Not saying thats the case at EWR, but yields have to be good to offset the higher costs of operating at EWR.
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Cedar
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Re: Could Norwegian leave EWR at some point?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:26 pm

EWR is not as expensive to operate in as some of you remember - there has been a significant effort over the past 3 years to reduce the cost of operating to more match that of JFK. For 4 main reasons:
1.) To make EWR as equally attractive to operate from
2.) To attract more traffic and reduce congestion from any single airport like LGA or JFK
3.) Major complaints from carriers operating at EWR, saying they are at a disadvantage from competitors at JFK due to higher costs
4.) More carriers flying to EWR, which results in PANYNJ operating costs being split among more carriers, thus reducing cost for any one carrier.

The result of this effort has been a significant decrease in operating costs.
I don't think the argument that EWR has higher operating costs can be used any longer.

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Cointrin330
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Re: Could Norwegian leave EWR at some point?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:43 pm

DY's financial position, while not yet hanging by a thread, is not in good shape. BCN and FCO will do well in the spring and summer, but the market tapers off considerably during the winter. I flew DY last minute to BCN from EWR in January. 65 people on the plane. DY isn't making money on the route.
 
asuflyer
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Re: Could Norwegian leave EWR at some point?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:35 pm

a350lover wrote:

I don't see any reason in putting specifically these two routes in Newark... are maybe the ones "less" business focused?


The main reason Norwegian is there is due to lack of gate space at T1 at JFK during Norwegian's desired times. At that time Newark had additional international gate space available, however at peak times (evenings) it no longer does. TK would very much like to serve EWR as well however they cannot get suitable times due to no available gates at Terminals B, and C reserved solely for UA.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Could Norwegian leave EWR at some point?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:38 pm

asuflyer wrote:
a350lover wrote:

I don't see any reason in putting specifically these two routes in Newark... are maybe the ones "less" business focused?


The main reason Norwegian is there is due to lack of gate space at T1 at JFK during Norwegian's desired times.


They need to evaluate the savings - and marketing clarity - of combining ops at JFK vs. better flight times. There's certainly capacity at JFK off-peak.
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: Could Norwegian leave EWR at some point?

Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:27 pm

a350lover wrote:
From a cost perspective, Stewart would be fantastic for Norwegian.

Realistically, they would loose much of the market. Many other choices cheaper/nearly as cheap to Europe often. They need to remain in big airports, and MIA/SFO move I reckon proves that.


:checkmark: Norwegian's strategy of serving cheaper secondary airports like FLL, OAK, PVD and SWF did not seem to be a success. It seems abundantly clear that the company is focused on higher yielding primary airports like BOS, JFK, MIA and SFO now. Maybe the likes of SWF are appropriate for an ULCC rather than a cheap chic, B6-style LCC operation - but even WW (WOW air) went with BOS and EWR over cheaper alternatives. Norwegian's EWR operation seems to be little more than an exercise to serve leisure travelers that don't really mind which airport they use. When JFK slots and gate space become available, I'm sure the EWR flights and (most) pax will gladly switch over to that airport.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
a350lover
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Re: Could Norwegian leave EWR at some point?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:31 am

There isn't many examples of low cost long haul operating to secondary airports indeed.

The truth is that the model Ryanair started only remains partly valid for them and just for a limited amount of markets, namely Stockholm or Munich, where they have just remained to the alternative/secondary airfields. I heard Air Asia X switched the MEL Tullamarine double daily KUL flight to Avalon, and I wonder how long can that last. Passengers don't wanna drive/bus/train for another couple of hours after a long haul flight. That's my impression. And legacies will remain serving the main airports and put pressure via low fares too, so that force the low cost to arrive main terminals.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Could Norwegian leave EWR at some point?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:00 am

a350lover wrote:
There isn't many examples of low cost long haul operating to secondary airports indeed.

The truth is that the model Ryanair started only remains partly valid for them and just for a limited amount of markets, namely Stockholm or Munich, where they have just remained to the alternative/secondary airfields. I heard Air Asia X switched the MEL Tullamarine double daily KUL flight to Avalon, and I wonder how long can that last. Passengers don't wanna drive/bus/train for another couple of hours after a long haul flight. That's my impression. And legacies will remain serving the main airports and put pressure via low fares too, so that force the low cost to arrive main terminals.


In Bangkok AirAsia uses Don Mueang instead of the primary Suvarnabhumi, it works well for them. In Kuala Lumpur they were initially interested in Sultan Abdul Aziz Shah (Subang), prefering it over the big Kuala Lumpur International (Sepang). However they couldn't get permission to use Subang.

Ryanair has indeed expended into a number of primary airports, however they also keep their presence at the secondary airports. Comparing fares, they're often cheaper out of the secondary airports due to the lower landing and handling fees there. Keep in mind Ryanair didn't move, they added. That's a big difference. Their presence at the secondary airports remains vital, the primary airports are just a bonus.

You're assuming passengers don't want to drive/bus/train for another couple of hours after a long haul flight, but you don't always solve that problem by serving the primary airports. In fact, someone living near a secondary airport might still have to drive for hours to get home after a long haul flight into a further away primary airport.

From what I understood the Norwegian flights at Stewart are performing rather well just because they use Stewart, which is more convenient for the suburbs of New York and the land behind it. They don't want to cross the whole town to get to JFK or Newark when they can get to Stewart faster. Primary airports aren't always the most convenient.

And of course there will always be people that don't mind a few hours extra travel time after a long haul flight if they can save a few bucks by that. You might not be one of them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
 
a350lover
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Re: Could Norwegian leave EWR at some point?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:08 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:

In Bangkok AirAsia uses Don Mueang instead of the primary Suvarnabhumi, it works well for them.


That's a HUB for them.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Could Norwegian leave EWR at some point?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:23 am

a350lover wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:

In Bangkok AirAsia uses Don Mueang instead of the primary Suvarnabhumi, it works well for them.


That's a HUB for them.


True, but it's still a secondary airport. Of course a hub doesn't always have to be a primary airport.

Back to Norwegian, they serve three New York airports (JFK, Newark and Stewart). All three of them are destination airports, they're the end of the line. This makes the size of the airport irrelevant, people don't transfer there anyway. For passengers it doesn't make any difference if they fly out of a big or a small airport. In fact, some say a small airport is actually more convenient. A hub needs a certain size, a destination doesn't.
 
a350lover
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Re: Could Norwegian leave EWR at some point?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:39 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
You're assuming passengers don't want to drive/bus/train for another couple of hours after a long haul flight, but you don't always solve that problem by serving the primary airports. In fact, someone living near a secondary airport might still have to drive for hours to get home after a long haul flight into a further away primary airport.


As much as I respect your posts, cause they tend to have interesting info... my assumption I guess goes well with the rules of the market. I believe there are more people in this world hoping to land in JFK than people preferring to land in Stewart. Just for easiness of transport, connections, services, etc. Obviously, if you are one of the 20K citizens of say... New Windsor, located just 10min far from Stewart, you are gonna love how cozy and homey feels getting back home through Stewart. Despite that, I guess it is more likely that you are one of the 18M people living in the urban area of NYC.

The day we see Norwegian landing in Stewart with a 787 I'd assume they are totally lost.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Could Norwegian leave EWR at some point?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:52 am

a350lover wrote:
my assumption I guess goes well with the rules of the market.


Rules of the market, inside the box thinking. That's just what some airlines like Norwegian are trying to break. They say, screw the rules of the market, we're doing it different. Using Stewart is a prime example of outside the box thinking.

a350lover wrote:
Despite that, I guess it is more likely that you are one of the 18M people living in the urban area of NYC.

The day we see Norwegian landing in Stewart with a 787 I'd assume they are totally lost.


I could have been, but I'm not. In fact, I'm living at the other side of the pond in a small town in the Netherlands. This means that whatever airport I'm using, I still have to travel for a few hours to get home after a flight. Amsterdam is technically the closest, but not always the most convenient. I've got good experience with flying out of Eindhoven and even out of Weeze, just across the border in Germany.

When we see Norwegian landing a 787 in Stewart you say they're lost, I say they found a way where you assumed there wasn't one.
 
A380MSN004
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Re: Could Norwegian leave EWR at some point?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:59 am

a350lover wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
You're assuming passengers don't want to drive/bus/train for another couple of hours after a long haul flight, but you don't always solve that problem by serving the primary airports. In fact, someone living near a secondary airport might still have to drive for hours to get home after a long haul flight into a further away primary airport.


As much as I respect your posts, cause they tend to have interesting info... my assumption I guess goes well with the rules of the market. I believe there are more people in this world hoping to land in JFK than people preferring to land in Stewart. Just for easiness of transport, connections, services, etc. Obviously, if you are one of the 20K citizens of say... New Windsor, located just 10min far from Stewart, you are gonna love how cozy and homey feels getting back home through Stewart. Despite that, I guess it is more likely that you are one of the 18M people living in the urban area of NYC.

The day we see Norwegian landing in Stewart with a 787 I'd assume they are totally lost.


Then they are totally lost :)
https://youtu.be/Mcsg1BsqV2I
 
a350lover
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Re: Could Norwegian leave EWR at some point?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:16 pm

A380MSN004 wrote:
Then they are totally lost :)
https://youtu.be/Mcsg1BsqV2I


You knew what I meant lol!
 
a350lover
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Re: Could Norwegian leave EWR at some point?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:21 pm

Patrick... you are absolutely right. I have done the same thing many times. You must love aviation as much as I do, and that means that you and I don't bother much to fly Eindhoven-Copenhaguen-Fort Lauderdale on a self-connection. We'd enjoy every minute of that. Not a long time ago we discussed on this forum about flights Vagar-NYC, which I find fascinating and would love to see. You and I are not alone on that segment of the market. Indeed, quite a few people (many, thanks to Norwegian!) fly across the globe doing these type of trips. I won't dare to set the % of people willing to do that. This same people who are highly "sensible" to low fares are the ones least loyal many times to just one brand (although I agree Norwegian's product is very much loved!). These people use google flights, kayak, edreams, etc to organize their trips and they are going to see LGW-JFK slightly cheaper than LHR-JFK on BA. How cheaper would need to be an airfare for a regular pax to fly Stewart instead of JFK assuming both have as final destination Central NYC city?

Is there a realistic market in Stewart to handle the amount of connections Norwegian flies from EWR/JFK to Europe? In the eyes of aviation lovers there might be. In the eyes of finances people, I'd say there isn't.

Hey, this is just a humble opinion. Many times, every day, I am wrong which is fine;)

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