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MrBretz
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:17 am

SuseJ772 wrote:
I think something else should be considered as well. The premise is that at Flaps 1 the MCAS is always deactivated. But what if it doesn’t always deactivate it. What if that is part of the problem.

As a programmer you are always faced with how things are suppose to work versus how they actually do work. And it usually isn’t as simple as Flaps 1 = off. Because of course this doesn’t happen with every or even most flights. But you combine a previously unconsidered combinations of parameters (ie Flaps 1, AoA error, and [insert 3rd condition]), and it does something you don’t expect (ie not cutting off MCAS even with Flaps 1).

Just a thought


SuseJ722, I was a programmer too. And at one time it involved a flight computer. People don’t understand how complex the logic usually is. And we here don’t know the logic in the software or even all the inputs. I imagine the algorithm that is actually programmed is orders of magnitude more complex than what is alluded to here. All I know is we have to wait for an investigation to see what happened.

The comment by a previous poster about AI since the 80s or whatever it was reminds me of a comment I had once from an outside manager commenting on my software design during a review. I was praised later on on how I was able to keep my mouth shut.
 
ikramerica
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:19 am

LegoAir wrote:
Boeing is having lot of trouble with aircraft systems integration. It is ridiculous that one failed AoA sensor has result in a fatal accident in Indonesia and now it may have happened again. Boeing engineers will learn a lot with Embraers engineering team, who has been a benchmark in system integration and flight hazardous analysis in the last years.

“Resulted in” is a strong conclusion.

I’m still of the strong belief that Lions failure to ground the aircraft “resulted in” the crash. Designe flaw or not, dispatching that aircraft was negligent. Add to that the negligence of not briefing the pilots on how the previous pilots overcame the incident. Heck, every Max8 pilot should have been briefed.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
NWNightfly
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:20 am

InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
MikeAlpha95 wrote:
For example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WOZPaO7gi0

around 60s after lift off the flaps are retracted...

Sure different height etc ..


Flew a UA 738 back in September and we used flaps 1 on takeoff from SEA, and the flaps were retracted around 45 seconds after takeoff


Do you recall if the autopilot was switched on by then?
 
akb88
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:21 am

NWNightfly wrote:
akb88 wrote:
I saw something that the MCAS can be turned off. Wouldn't that solve the issue?


It can and it would. The problem would be if the pilots failed to diagnose the issue they were experiencing as being related to MCAS, and thus never thought of disengaging it.


So if it's turned off during take off and climb then accidents like this won't happen? Then why isn't that standard operating procedure?
 
Etheereal
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:22 am

EmoticonsAllDay wrote:
So much for the impeccable saftey record of the 737 family. I'm not flying any MAX planes until the problem is definitely resolved. Better to be safe than sorry.

You will not be missed in the upcoming flights.

Also LAX772LR: I was wondering as well how far i could read before people started talking about JT610 and MCAS..
 
Lootess
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:23 am

 
SocalApproach
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:24 am

edu2703 wrote:
An article claims 737 MAX has been grounded in China by the CAA

https://twitter.com/AirlineFlyer/status ... 0546293766

There are some rumors that GOL Airlines will ground their MAX 8 fleet as well


Good. It needs to be grounded. I get the people playing devils advocate that UA/WN fly it with no problems but give me a break. How many people have to die on this plane before something is done. We dont need an accident close to home to take action on this. 787 was grounded with no deaths :sarcastic:
 
Magog
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:26 am

An aviation expert who is also an official at the Indonesian Ombudsman is demanding that the Indonesian government ground all Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft that were still operating for Indonesian airlines.

https://www.thejakartapost.com/amp/news ... nesia.html
 
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InnsbruckFlyer
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:26 am

NWNightfly wrote:
InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
MikeAlpha95 wrote:
For example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WOZPaO7gi0

around 60s after lift off the flaps are retracted...

Sure different height etc ..


Flew a UA 738 back in September and we used flaps 1 on takeoff from SEA, and the flaps were retracted around 45 seconds after takeoff


Do you recall if the autopilot was switched on by then?


No idea, but I do recall a noticeable pitch change
Last flown aircraft: DH8D OE-LGN < DH8D OE-LGI < E195 OE-LWE < DH8D OE-LGI < A320 D-AIUR < A320 D-AIZM < B738 PH-HZJ < B737 PH-XRD < B772 N766AN < B738 N855NN < B788 N45905 < A319 N808UA < A320 N482UA < B752 N19117
 
aircatalonia
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:26 am

If the problem turns out to be inadequate pilot training, I will be very concerned about those chinese carriers, whose pilots already have difficulties with English language... I just don't see them reading and understanding all the procedures needed to deal with these issues.

Edit: now I see they are grounding the planes
Last edited by aircatalonia on Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
pintail21
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:26 am

A plane takes off at 7000+ feet MSL, barely climbs 1000’, says they have a problem, then crashes. Has anyone here ever flown a V1 cut in the sim at a high elevation field, or even run climb gradient charts for those environmental conditions? It’s not pretty.

Any talk about grounding a fleet because they were 2 crashes in 2 years before the mishap chain is clearly identified in either incident is absolutely insane. Wait until the facts emerge then make informed decisions. That’s what keeps people safe, not leaping to conclusions.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:26 am

speedking wrote:
Aither wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
If indeed it is an MCAS induced crash then the primary responsibility is Ethiopian’s training. After the Lion crash Boeing put out an emergency bulletin explaining the problem and telling the pilots EXACTLY what to do if they encountered a similar problem. Any MAX pilot who did not get this information is either incompetent himself or flies for an airline with an incompetent, negligent and uncaring training department. I would think any competent pilot would, without any specific training, when faced with uncommanded trim inputs speedily disable the electric trim. If he doesn’t know how he has no business flying the plane.


You know we live in a world of shortage of pilots and over saturated training centres.
In countries like in Asia, pilots are only trained on simulators, they never flew real aircraft.
What I mean is the competence of pilots is declining on average worldwide.

If you tell me that for the Max you need more skilled and experience pilots to fly safe compared to other aircraft, then I can already tell Boeing to go back to the drawing board.


I concur. MAX might be a wonderful aircraft but if you need an astronaut to fly it, if in trouble, it is not a good option to the markets it has been sold to.

I am a private pilot, not an astronaut. The planes I fly rarely have electric trim. But I know enough that if I do have electric trim and it starts doing things I don’t like to PULL THE BLEEPING BREAKER!!! It does not take many smarts to figure that out, and in the MAX I understand that there are two switches to disable it. As I said, Boeing issued a bulletin about it after the Lion crash, and if any pilot flying it did NOT read it, then there is some serious negligence involved. Yes, there is a shortage of pilots, but pilots are needed to take appropriate action when something goes wrong, not just ride along and enjoy the view. They need to understand their plane and it’s systems well enough to handle emergencies.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
speedking
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:30 am

ikramerica wrote:
speedking wrote:
Aither wrote:

You know we live in a world of shortage of pilots and over saturated training centres.
In countries like in Asia, pilots are only trained on simulators, they never flew real aircraft.
What I mean is the competence of pilots is declining on average worldwide.

If you tell me that for the Max you need more skilled and experience pilots to fly safe compared to other aircraft, then I can already tell Boeing to go back to the drawing board.


I concur. MAX might be a wonderful aircraft but if you need an astronaut to fly it, if in trouble, it is not a good option to the markets it has been sold to.

Astronauts are cargo. :duck:


Ahh..yes, got it. Sorry! How about..hmm..Sullenberger? :lol:
 
edu2703
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:32 am

Cayman Airways suspends 737 MAX8 operations

https://twitter.com/ShaquilleAKhan/stat ... 1861155840
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:33 am

akb88 wrote:
NWNightfly wrote:
akb88 wrote:
I saw something that the MCAS can be turned off. Wouldn't that solve the issue?


It can and it would. The problem would be if the pilots failed to diagnose the issue they were experiencing as being related to MCAS, and thus never thought of disengaging it.


So if it's turned off during take off and climb then accidents like this won't happen? Then why isn't that standard operating procedure?


Because MCAS is supposed to be a backup system to prevent unexpected stall behaviour... you want it to be actively preventing issues for the pilots during the take-off and climb phases of flight without pilots requesting it! (or even knowing about it...)
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:33 am

Magog wrote:
pintail21 wrote:

Any talk about grounding a fleet because they were 2 crashes in 2 years before the mishap chain is clearly identified in either incident is absolutely insane.

So, according to you, the Chinese are “insane”?


The Chinese? The same country that executes people for small infractions? Yes.
 
acechip
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:37 am

aircatalonia wrote:
If the problem turns out to be inadequate pilot training, I will be very concerned about those chinese carriers, whose pilots already have difficulties with English language... I just don't see them reading and understanding all the procedures needed to deal with these issues.


Lets not generalise based on a few youtube ATC communication videos. How many accidents have occurred on Chinese airlines where CRM and communication has been a significant factor ? This comment is similar to the "third world" notions about Lion Air, Ethiopian" that some others have peddled.
By the way, its Boeing's job to smoothen things out in terms of the system design and user inputs in order that pilots have minimum stress in operating the type. What does Boeing want pilots to be doing during a flight envelope excursion ? Fly like fighter pilots ?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:42 am

acechip wrote:
aircatalonia wrote:
If the problem turns out to be inadequate pilot training, I will be very concerned about those chinese carriers, whose pilots already have difficulties with English language... I just don't see them reading and understanding all the procedures needed to deal with these issues.


Lets not generalise based on a few youtube ATC communication videos. How many accidents have occurred on Chinese airlines where CRM and communication has been a significant factor ? This comment is similar to the "third world" notions about Lion Air, Ethiopian" that some others have peddled.
By the way, its Boeing's job to smoothen things out in terms of the system design and user inputs in order that pilots have minimum stress in operating the type. What does Boeing want pilots to be doing during a flight envelope excursion ? Fly like fighter pilots ?


I disagree. Boeing should not be catering to the lowest common denominator.
 
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glideslope
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:46 am

ikramerica wrote:
speedking wrote:
Aither wrote:

You know we live in a world of shortage of pilots and over saturated training centres.
In countries like in Asia, pilots are only trained on simulators, they never flew real aircraft.
What I mean is the competence of pilots is declining on average worldwide.

If you tell me that for the Max you need more skilled and experience pilots to fly safe compared to other aircraft, then I can already tell Boeing to go back to the drawing board.


I concur. MAX might be a wonderful aircraft but if you need an astronaut to fly it, if in trouble, it is not a good option to the markets it has been sold to.

Astronauts are cargo. :duck:


Not after they reach cruise. ;)
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
acechip
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:54 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
acechip wrote:
aircatalonia wrote:
If the problem turns out to be inadequate pilot training, I will be very concerned about those chinese carriers, whose pilots already have difficulties with English language... I just don't see them reading and understanding all the procedures needed to deal with these issues.


Lets not generalise based on a few youtube ATC communication videos. How many accidents have occurred on Chinese airlines where CRM and communication has been a significant factor ? This comment is similar to the "third world" notions about Lion Air, Ethiopian" that some others have peddled.
By the way, its Boeing's job to smoothen things out in terms of the system design and user inputs in order that pilots have minimum stress in operating the type. What does Boeing want pilots to be doing during a flight envelope excursion ? Fly like fighter pilots ?


I disagree. Boeing should not be catering to the lowest common denominator.

Its too late boss! With the predominance of aviation as an industry and the rapid geographical spread (compared to the 60s/70s), it is necessary for the manufacturer and regulator both to ensure that planes can be operated safely by pilots who do not have call-sign "maverick". The lowest common denominator in this case has been the Boeings design choice to extend the basic airframe of the mid-60s all the way to 2019 and beyond. They have literally stretched the limits and then added that MCAS-whatever-it-is. Even if the cause of this accident turns out to be entirely something else, the MCAS would be be under scrutiny and hopefully, the subject of a re-certification process.
 
VTCIE
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:58 am

edu2703 wrote:
Cayman Airways suspends 737 MAX8 operations

https://twitter.com/ShaquilleAKhan/stat ... 1861155840


This means Cayman will have suspended operations of all aircraft built in the 21st century. I hope this post does not stoke misgivings about the correlation between the age of an aircraft and its safety.
In grieving remembrance of the thousands of people who lost their lives on ET-AVJ, PK-LQP, XA-UHZ, S2-AGU, CP-2933, SU-GCC, EI-ETJ, D-AIPX, PK-AXC, 9M-MRD, VT-AXV and above all 9M-MRO, besides many more. Your deaths are not in vain. Safety first, always.
 
sealevel
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:01 am

Whew, ok - so any status on the CVR-FDR recovery ?
 
Dominion301
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:01 am

While I have read most of this thread, my apologies if this has already been posted.

Like with so many crashes, someone got lucky by missing their flight, in this case onto ET302: https://www.rappler.com/world/regions/e ... 1552265686

Wow! That Greek gentleman must be thanking his lucky stars for missing pushback by a mere 2 minutes.
 
dmstorm22
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:02 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
acechip wrote:
aircatalonia wrote:
If the problem turns out to be inadequate pilot training, I will be very concerned about those chinese carriers, whose pilots already have difficulties with English language... I just don't see them reading and understanding all the procedures needed to deal with these issues.


Lets not generalise based on a few youtube ATC communication videos. How many accidents have occurred on Chinese airlines where CRM and communication has been a significant factor ? This comment is similar to the "third world" notions about Lion Air, Ethiopian" that some others have peddled.
By the way, its Boeing's job to smoothen things out in terms of the system design and user inputs in order that pilots have minimum stress in operating the type. What does Boeing want pilots to be doing during a flight envelope excursion ? Fly like fighter pilots ?


I disagree. Boeing should not be catering to the lowest common denominator.


Well, hopefully boeing has a more nuanced/smart position than that since their projected growth is going to largely be driven by the growth in aviation demand in China/India/rest of the developing world.
Just read their yearly annual outlooks.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:03 am

acechip wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
acechip wrote:

Lets not generalise based on a few youtube ATC communication videos. How many accidents have occurred on Chinese airlines where CRM and communication has been a significant factor ? This comment is similar to the "third world" notions about Lion Air, Ethiopian" that some others have peddled.
By the way, its Boeing's job to smoothen things out in terms of the system design and user inputs in order that pilots have minimum stress in operating the type. What does Boeing want pilots to be doing during a flight envelope excursion ? Fly like fighter pilots ?


I disagree. Boeing should not be catering to the lowest common denominator.

Its too late boss! With the predominance of aviation as an industry and the rapid geographical spread (compared to the 60s/70s), it is necessary for the manufacturer and regulator both to ensure that planes can be operated safely by pilots who do not have call-sign "maverick". The lowest common denominator in this case has been the Boeings design choice to extend the basic airframe of the mid-60s all the way to 2019 and beyond. They have literally stretched the limits and then added that MCAS-whatever-it-is. Even if the cause of this accident turns out to be entirely something else, the MCAS would be be under scrutiny and hopefully, the subject of a re-certification process.


So you want someone flying your plane who doesn't understand the systems inside and out? Was it Boeing's fault when it was discovered that hundreds of pilots in developing nations had forged their certificates? I never want to see "So easy a child could fly it" in Boeing's marketing material...

Boeing and Airbus can build the greatest planes ever but unless you have a competent crew then that plane is a deathtrap. United pilots flew a DC-10 to a controlled crash landing with no hydraulic lines and using only differential thrust. They did that but Lion Air pilots may not have even done something so simple as to flip a couple of switches.
 
D L X
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:04 am

aden23 wrote:

If this ends up the same cause as Lion Air, manslaughter charges for the higher ups at Boeing will be a very appropriate and publicly lauded response.

I’m one of the people that think grounding may e appropriate, but this idea that we’re going to issue manslaughter charges for boring executives would be laughable if it weren’t so dangerous a belief.

There is no legal basis to believe that Boeing executives intended these people to die or have a depraved disregard for whether they did.
 
flynlr
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:05 am

anyone have lat and long coordinates of actual impact site?
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Varsity1
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:06 am

YoungDon wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
So the first officer had 200 hours? This was probably his first flight flying a jet of any kind. I would suspect a loss of control.


That's definitely not the case, training programs in foreign countries start out with cadets with no time flown beginning on jets. He's definitely inexperienced, but it's entirely possible all of his flight time is in jets.

What will be interesting to know is the amount of time he had on the MAX.


You don't spend your first 200 hours learning in jets anywhere on earth except some militaries.

Even if he had 200 hours all in the 737 max, it's almost nothing for flight time. Most pilots fly 100 hours a month!
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
acechip
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:09 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
acechip wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

I disagree. Boeing should not be catering to the lowest common denominator.

Its too late boss! With the predominance of aviation as an industry and the rapid geographical spread (compared to the 60s/70s), it is necessary for the manufacturer and regulator both to ensure that planes can be operated safely by pilots who do not have call-sign "maverick". The lowest common denominator in this case has been the Boeings design choice to extend the basic airframe of the mid-60s all the way to 2019 and beyond. They have literally stretched the limits and then added that MCAS-whatever-it-is. Even if the cause of this accident turns out to be entirely something else, the MCAS would be be under scrutiny and hopefully, the subject of a re-certification process.


So you want someone flying your plane who doesn't understand the systems inside and out? Was it Boeing's fault when it was discovered that hundreds of pilots in developing nations had forged their certificates? I never want to see "So easy a child could fly it" in Boeing's marketing material...

Boeing and Airbus can build the greatest planes ever but unless you have a competent crew then that plane is a deathtrap. United pilots flew a DC-10 to a controlled crash landing with no hydraulic lines and using only differential thrust. They did that but Lion Air pilots may not have even done something so simple as to flip a couple of switches.

Dont compare UA232 with Lion Air. UA 232 was in the cruise phase of the flight, Lion Air & ET pilots had barely taken off with a few thousand feet or less of safety altitude. And lets not even get to the developing world pilot training standards when a so-called developed world flight crew flew a perfectly flyable A330 straight into the sea back in 2009, amidst basic confusion of whether to push down or to pull up.
Last edited by acechip on Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
CX Flyboy
Posts: 6146
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:11 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
acechip wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

I disagree. Boeing should not be catering to the lowest common denominator.

Its too late boss! With the predominance of aviation as an industry and the rapid geographical spread (compared to the 60s/70s), it is necessary for the manufacturer and regulator both to ensure that planes can be operated safely by pilots who do not have call-sign "maverick". The lowest common denominator in this case has been the Boeings design choice to extend the basic airframe of the mid-60s all the way to 2019 and beyond. They have literally stretched the limits and then added that MCAS-whatever-it-is. Even if the cause of this accident turns out to be entirely something else, the MCAS would be be under scrutiny and hopefully, the subject of a re-certification process.


So you want someone flying your plane who doesn't understand the systems inside and out? Was it Boeing's fault when it was discovered that hundreds of pilots in developing nations had forged their certificates? I never want to see "So easy a child could fly it" in Boeing's marketing material...

Boeing and Airbus can build the greatest planes ever but unless you have a competent crew then that plane is a deathtrap. United pilots flew a DC-10 to a controlled crash landing with no hydraulic lines and using only differential thrust. They did that but Lion Air pilots may not have even done something so simple as to flip a couple of switches.



It isn't ideal but it is reality. Aviation simply does not attract the same calibre and numbers of people that it used to while demand for pilots is skyrocketing, the supply cannot keep up so the result is indeed a lowering of standards. None of us want this but its just the way things are. Shake your head all you want.....
 
CO953
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:13 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Buffalomatt1027 wrote:
I mentioned the training part earlier in the tread ...... the major airlines like AA, United, Southwest, all seem to be flying the MAX just fine. Its the smaller, lesser known airlines that have had the accidents. .


How many AA/UA/WN flights have encountered this issue, processed it appropriately, and returned to the airport?


Very astute question.

I am busy with some work and don't have time to do this, but it would be a good mathematical exercise to list all operators in descending rank by what percentage of the global fleet each is operating, and then compare all available incidents, where MCAS has kicked in, to such percentage.

Might shed some light on whether some airlines are handling the same problem better.

Honest reporting from all operators and pilots is needed, STAT. Anyone who's had a issue flying the MAX needs to report, with explicit and strong whistleblower protection.

This may have nothing to do with MCAS, but preventive measures are warranted.

To quote Goldfinger, from the James Bond series:

"Mr Bond, they have a saying in Chicago: 'Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action.'"

I hope a full-court press is now made to make sure - if it truly is an aircraft issue - not to let a third planeload of souls prove this out....
 
patches
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:13 am

I'm very puzzled and sad after learning of the latest 737-8 Max fatal crash today. After the Lion crash last fall didnt Boeing shout from the highest mountain that there was a problem with the software on the Max? I took for granted that Boeing would have gone back and retrained every Airline who bought the Max. Didnt they show pilots how to disarm the stall system and fly the play manually? It just seems like a no-brainer. Just my 2 cents worth.
 
YoungDon
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:13 am

Those that want to play the ostrich can put their heads in the sand all they want, but airlines/countries choosing to ground their MAX fleets is going to continue. People are already starting not to want to fly on the type. The damage is done at this point.

It's a terrible thing too, because the 737 has had such a stellar safety reputation over the years. Even if pilot or mx error proves to be a contributing factor here, any implication of the aircraft design or control system in this accident will have a lot of people booking other types until some time goes by with no more fatal accidents.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:18 am

Turns out a second man originating in DXB also missed his connection to ET302: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mOrQ1ND77_A
 
CO953
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:23 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
acechip wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

I disagree. Boeing should not be catering to the lowest common denominator.

Its too late boss! With the predominance of aviation as an industry and the rapid geographical spread (compared to the 60s/70s), it is necessary for the manufacturer and regulator both to ensure that planes can be operated safely by pilots who do not have call-sign "maverick". The lowest common denominator in this case has been the Boeings design choice to extend the basic airframe of the mid-60s all the way to 2019 and beyond. They have literally stretched the limits and then added that MCAS-whatever-it-is. Even if the cause of this accident turns out to be entirely something else, the MCAS would be be under scrutiny and hopefully, the subject of a re-certification process.


So you want someone flying your plane who doesn't understand the systems inside and out? Was it Boeing's fault when it was discovered that hundreds of pilots in developing nations had forged their certificates? I never want to see "So easy a child could fly it" in Boeing's marketing material...

Boeing and Airbus can build the greatest planes ever but unless you have a competent crew then that plane is a deathtrap. United pilots flew a DC-10 to a controlled crash landing with no hydraulic lines and using only differential thrust. They did that but Lion Air pilots may not have even done something so simple as to flip a couple of switches.


This will probably come off as sarcastic, but it's not meant that way:

People are getting dumber. The smartphone has screwed up the average attention span. Secondly, the generation of airline pilots who nursed shot-up P-47s back to base with 50mm cannon holes all through the airframe, missing an elevator and an aileron and a canopy, is gone. People don't work mechanical problems as instinctively anymore because they're not exposed to them. No one fixes a toaster anymore. (Almost) no one rigs a carburetor with a coathanger. Kids don't play much sandlot baseball anymore.

I'm just saying that I'm hearing a lot of people remonstrate that pilots who can't deal with the 737MAX MCAS quirk during a high-stress emergency are just losers.

Maybe manufacturers had better start designing things for a less-intrinsically-mechanically-inclined world populace. Not that I'm happy about it, either.
Last edited by CO953 on Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
YoungDon
Posts: 645
Joined: Thu May 31, 2001 9:33 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:25 am

Varsity1 wrote:
YoungDon wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
So the first officer had 200 hours? This was probably his first flight flying a jet of any kind. I would suspect a loss of control.


That's definitely not the case, training programs in foreign countries start out with cadets with no time flown beginning on jets. He's definitely inexperienced, but it's entirely possible all of his flight time is in jets.

What will be interesting to know is the amount of time he had on the MAX.


You don't spend your first 200 hours learning in jets anywhere on earth except some militaries.

Even if he had 200 hours all in the 737 max, it's almost nothing for flight time. Most pilots fly 100 hours a month!


You're right, I probably should have said mostly on jets. Agreed that's not much experience at all, and its an interesting data point in all this. If he was the PF the plot certainly thickens.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2519
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:29 am

CO953 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
acechip wrote:
Its too late boss! With the predominance of aviation as an industry and the rapid geographical spread (compared to the 60s/70s), it is necessary for the manufacturer and regulator both to ensure that planes can be operated safely by pilots who do not have call-sign "maverick". The lowest common denominator in this case has been the Boeings design choice to extend the basic airframe of the mid-60s all the way to 2019 and beyond. They have literally stretched the limits and then added that MCAS-whatever-it-is. Even if the cause of this accident turns out to be entirely something else, the MCAS would be be under scrutiny and hopefully, the subject of a re-certification process.


So you want someone flying your plane who doesn't understand the systems inside and out? Was it Boeing's fault when it was discovered that hundreds of pilots in developing nations had forged their certificates? I never want to see "So easy a child could fly it" in Boeing's marketing material...

Boeing and Airbus can build the greatest planes ever but unless you have a competent crew then that plane is a deathtrap. United pilots flew a DC-10 to a controlled crash landing with no hydraulic lines and using only differential thrust. They did that but Lion Air pilots may not have even done something so simple as to flip a couple of switches.


This will probably come off as sarcastic, but it's not meant that way:

People are getting dumber. The smartphone has screwed up the average attention span. Secondly, the generation of airline pilots who nursed shot-up P-47s back to base with 50mm cannon holes all through the airframe, missing an elevator and an aileron and a canopy, is gone. People don't work mechanical problems as instinctively anymore because they're not exposed to them. No one fixes a toaster anymore. (Almost) no one rigs a carburetor with a coathanger. Kids don't play much sandlot baseball anymore.

I'm just saying that I'm hearing a lot of people remonstrate that pilots who can't deal with the 737MAX MCAS quirk during a high-stress emergency are just losers.

Maybe manufacturers had better start designing things for a less-intrinsically-mechanically-inclined world populace. Not that I'm happy about it, either.


It's not that the pilots are losers at all, they just don't have adequate training. If you've never piloted a C172 or similar then you have no business being in command of a 737.
 
speedking
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:00 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:30 am

CO953 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
acechip wrote:
Its too late boss! With the predominance of aviation as an industry and the rapid geographical spread (compared to the 60s/70s), it is necessary for the manufacturer and regulator both to ensure that planes can be operated safely by pilots who do not have call-sign "maverick". The lowest common denominator in this case has been the Boeings design choice to extend the basic airframe of the mid-60s all the way to 2019 and beyond. They have literally stretched the limits and then added that MCAS-whatever-it-is. Even if the cause of this accident turns out to be entirely something else, the MCAS would be be under scrutiny and hopefully, the subject of a re-certification process.


So you want someone flying your plane who doesn't understand the systems inside and out? Was it Boeing's fault when it was discovered that hundreds of pilots in developing nations had forged their certificates? I never want to see "So easy a child could fly it" in Boeing's marketing material...

Boeing and Airbus can build the greatest planes ever but unless you have a competent crew then that plane is a deathtrap. United pilots flew a DC-10 to a controlled crash landing with no hydraulic lines and using only differential thrust. They did that but Lion Air pilots may not have even done something so simple as to flip a couple of switches.


This will probably come off as sarcastic, but it's not meant that way:

People are getting dumber. The smartphone has screwed up the average attention span. Secondly, the generation of airline pilots who nursed shot-up P-47s back to base with 50mm cannon holes all through the airframe, missing an elevator and an aileron and a canopy, is gone. People don't work mechanical problems as instinctively anymore because they're not exposed to them. No one fixes a toaster anymore. (Almost) no one rigs a carburetor with a coathanger. Kids don't play much sandlot baseball anymore.

I'm just saying that I'm hearing a lot of people remonstrate that pilots who can't deal with the 737MAX MCAS quirk during a high-stress emergency are just losers.

Maybe manufacturers had better start designing things for a less-intrinsically-mechanically-inclined world populace. Not that I'm happy about it, either.


But that would be expensive! We just need to Sell! Sell! Sell!
- Bean Counter
 
acechip
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:22 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:30 am

CO953 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
acechip wrote:
Its too late boss! With the predominance of aviation as an industry and the rapid geographical spread (compared to the 60s/70s), it is necessary for the manufacturer and regulator both to ensure that planes can be operated safely by pilots who do not have call-sign "maverick". The lowest common denominator in this case has been the Boeings design choice to extend the basic airframe of the mid-60s all the way to 2019 and beyond. They have literally stretched the limits and then added that MCAS-whatever-it-is. Even if the cause of this accident turns out to be entirely something else, the MCAS would be be under scrutiny and hopefully, the subject of a re-certification process.


So you want someone flying your plane who doesn't understand the systems inside and out? Was it Boeing's fault when it was discovered that hundreds of pilots in developing nations had forged their certificates? I never want to see "So easy a child could fly it" in Boeing's marketing material...

Boeing and Airbus can build the greatest planes ever but unless you have a competent crew then that plane is a deathtrap. United pilots flew a DC-10 to a controlled crash landing with no hydraulic lines and using only differential thrust. They did that but Lion Air pilots may not have even done something so simple as to flip a couple of switches.


This will probably come off as sarcastic, but it's not meant that way:

People are getting dumber. The smartphone has screwed up the average attention span. Secondly, the generation of airline pilots who nursed shot-up P-47s back to base with 50mm cannon holes all through the airframe, missing an elevator and an aileron and a canopy, is gone. People don't work mechanical problems as instinctively anymore because they're not exposed to them. No one fixes a toaster anymore. (Almost) no one rigs a carburetor with a coathanger. Kids don't play much sandlot baseball anymore.

I'm just saying that I'm hearing a lot of people remonstrate that pilots who can't deal with the 737MAX MCAS quirk during a high-stress emergency are just losers.

Maybe manufacturers had better start designing things for a less-intrinsically-mechanically-inclined world populace. Not that I'm happy about it, either.


I agree, you are on to something with the human-automation interface. I am not exactly an advocate of a "look ma, no hands" philosophy. But this seems to be the need of the hour. Simplify, rather than complicate.
 
brunoguemes
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:55 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:32 am

My organization (charity) has over 12000 staff around the globe, we take that particular route very often, we have offices in Addis and Nairobi and have luckily not lost anyone though many flew these past days (I will fly it in tw oweeks), but we lost colleagues from the UN and other bodies closely related to our work. I have already received some internal emails of concern, though none official. I know statistics and I know aviation, and being objective I am not afraid of flying a MAX, but if my children and wife had to fly tomorrow or in a few weeks, I'd rather choose another model or airline if I can (and that does not make me stupid). That means that Boeing, EASA, FAA, country authorities, airlines, etc... cannot be too cautious, because if we (airline fanatics, pilots, etc.) can have concerns knowing the statistics, imagine the wider public. Unfortunately the morbid show on media and the misinformation make it even worse. Therefore I understand that some airlines will want to ground it, as a safety meassure, a PR meassure and well, just in case, it is not always politics and there is no need to see demons everywhere when in another country or a developing country.
I've read the whole thread, and dare not speculate about what happened, I am a scientist and I believe in facts. But there is one thing I can say after reading all of you. We would be doing aviation (and the world) a favour if we did not engage in nationalistic nonsense. I love Boeing airplanes, but I do believe that Boeing deserves a severe scrutiny, just like any other airline if anything happens. C'mon, we love aviation and we love safety, and the only way to be safe and care about aviation is to be cautious when something happens and we don't know what it can be.
When an accident happens, the flight controller that was on duty is off duty until investigations are off and he/she is found not guilty. It is part of the process, regardless of his nationality and we understand it, then why would brands and companies be any different?. Please, stop attacking Boeing iif you are a non-lover, and stop defending at all costs just because you are a B lover, it is sad to read enthusiasts be so biased.
And thanks to all who are providing data and links... thanks
 
AviationBob
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:14 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:33 am

akb88 wrote:
I'm seriously considering altering my flights next month to avoid the possiblity of flying with this plane


For me, I would feel safe in a Max if it’s flown by airlines in developed countries where the pilot training and standards are much more stringent. The fact that only a 200 hour pilot is sitting in the right seat of a major airframe is nothing short of insanity and would be a huge red flag for me ever setting foot on that airline.
 
adnoguez
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:28 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:35 am

I’m socked. I’m not an airliner expert but I do work with some serious numbers. Two airplanes crashed at take off, both brand new 737MAX, that’s way beyond luck. It’s almost impossible by common statistics. Statistically they should ground 737 MaX, it’s a serious anomaly. I also undestand that we need more data to link issues; it’s a dilemma.
 
NWNightfly
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:56 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:36 am

akb88 wrote:
NWNightfly wrote:
akb88 wrote:
I saw something that the MCAS can be turned off. Wouldn't that solve the issue?


It can and it would. The problem would be if the pilots failed to diagnose the issue they were experiencing as being related to MCAS, and thus never thought of disengaging it.


So if it's turned off during take off and climb then accidents like this won't happen? Then why isn't that standard operating procedure?


As I understand it, MCAS is disabled when flaps are extended or when the autopilot is engaged. That would cover a lot of those scenarios.

Now, I'm no expert, and not claiming to be an investigator, but, from what I"m seeing here, the data is consistent with the aircraft having a separate problem shortly after takeoff which may have caused the (apparently inexperienced) crew to have opted to immediately raise the flaps and hand-fly it. If they were trying to resolve the aforementioned problem, they may have concentrated on it to the extent of forgetting the MCAS issue and, thus, failing to disable electronic trim. In short, a perfect storm scenario. But that's just my amateur interpretation/speculation.
 
JAAlbert
Posts: 1980
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:43 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:38 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
legoguy wrote:
If the pilots were experiencing issues with airspeed during and right after departure, could they have raised the flaps earlier than normal in order to place the aircraft into an above stall speed state of flight?


That’s sorta what I was thinking.


Something like this could make sense given the known data. Others have reported a high speed, 380kts, unusual for a plane just after take off. The 777 crew reported hearing the pilot say the airspeed indicators were off, so perhaps the crew retracted the flaps and increased speed to ensure the plane gained altitude -- which may have kicked in the MCAS, causing all sorts of new problems. Many have been focusing on the MCAS, but scenarios other than the MCAS could be at play here.

Could blocked pitot tubes alone have caused such an accident?

What happens, if anything, when flaps are retracted at a low altitude? Is there a point at which flaps are retracted too soon?
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2519
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:40 am

adnoguez wrote:
I’m socked. I’m not an airliner expert but I do work with some serious numbers. Two airplanes crashed at take off, both brand new 737MAX, that’s way beyond luck. It’s almost impossible by common statistics. Statistically they should ground 737 MaX, it’s a serious anomaly. I also undestand that we need more data to link issues; it’s a dilemma.


Would you have grounded the 757 after three fatal accidents in 1996? Or how about the A320 after the Air Inter crash?

No one knows why the Lion Air or Ethiopian planes crashed.
 
brunoguemes
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:55 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:43 am

acechip wrote:
CO953 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

So you want someone flying your plane who doesn't understand the systems inside and out? Was it Boeing's fault when it was discovered that hundreds of pilots in developing nations had forged their certificates? I never want to see "So easy a child could fly it" in Boeing's marketing material...

Boeing and Airbus can build the greatest planes ever but unless you have a competent crew then that plane is a deathtrap. United pilots flew a DC-10 to a controlled crash landing with no hydraulic lines and using only differential thrust. They did that but Lion Air pilots may not have even done something so simple as to flip a couple of switches.


This will probably come off as sarcastic, but it's not meant that way:

People are getting dumber. The smartphone has screwed up the average attention span. Secondly, the generation of airline pilots who nursed shot-up P-47s back to base with 50mm cannon holes all through the airframe, missing an elevator and an aileron and a canopy, is gone. People don't work mechanical problems as instinctively anymore because they're not exposed to them. No one fixes a toaster anymore. (Almost) no one rigs a carburetor with a coathanger. Kids don't play much sandlot baseball anymore.

I'm just saying that I'm hearing a lot of people remonstrate that pilots who can't deal with the 737MAX MCAS quirk during a high-stress emergency are just losers.

Maybe manufacturers had better start designing things for a less-intrinsically-mechanically-inclined world populace. Not that I'm happy about it, either.


I agree, you are on to something with the human-automation interface. I am not exactly an advocate of a "look ma, no hands" philosophy. But this seems to be the need of the hour. Simplify, rather than complicate.



I do not understand what is being discussed. Why wouldn't a great plane also be easy to fly and intuitive?
A great pilot with an easy to fly plane is always better than a mediocre pilot with an easy to fly plane. A difficult to fly plane is ok with a good pilot, though under stress it is always better to have a simpler system, and a bad pilot can be a deathtrap. So why advocate for more complicated airplane systems??? makes no sense... having great pilots and easier systems is not contradictory, having both is redundant and improves safety... Particularly because under stressful situations, vibrations, Gs, etc. a good pilot can be severely hidered.

And it is up to airlines to demand good pilots and for agencies to control that pilot trainings are up to standards and not allow airlines to fly in their airspace if they cannot prove their skills. That has got nothing to do with the technology. I know there are awesome robots for heart surgery, but I would never accept undergoing heart surgery with a mediocre doctor, even if he could do a normal surgery as you never know what can go wrong... no need to give the good doctor complicated materials... get me a good doctor with a good robot and assistance, then I'll be happy.

Sorry, I think this is off topic already.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2519
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:47 am

brunoguemes wrote:
acechip wrote:
CO953 wrote:

This will probably come off as sarcastic, but it's not meant that way:

People are getting dumber. The smartphone has screwed up the average attention span. Secondly, the generation of airline pilots who nursed shot-up P-47s back to base with 50mm cannon holes all through the airframe, missing an elevator and an aileron and a canopy, is gone. People don't work mechanical problems as instinctively anymore because they're not exposed to them. No one fixes a toaster anymore. (Almost) no one rigs a carburetor with a coathanger. Kids don't play much sandlot baseball anymore.

I'm just saying that I'm hearing a lot of people remonstrate that pilots who can't deal with the 737MAX MCAS quirk during a high-stress emergency are just losers.

Maybe manufacturers had better start designing things for a less-intrinsically-mechanically-inclined world populace. Not that I'm happy about it, either.


I agree, you are on to something with the human-automation interface. I am not exactly an advocate of a "look ma, no hands" philosophy. But this seems to be the need of the hour. Simplify, rather than complicate.



I do not understand what is being discussed. Why wouldn't a great plane also be easy to fly and intuitive?
A great pilot with an easy to fly plane is always better than a mediocre pilot with an easy to fly plane. A difficult to fly plane is ok with a good pilot, though under stress it is always better to have a simpler system, and a bad pilot can be a deathtrap. So why advocate for more complicated airplane systems??? makes no sense... having great pilots and easier systems is not contradictory, having both is redundant and improves safety... Particularly because under stressful situations, vibrations, Gs, etc. a good pilot can be severely hidered.

And it is up to airlines to demand good pilots and for agencies to control that pilot trainings are up to standards and not allow airlines to fly in their airspace if they cannot prove their skills. That has got nothing to do with the technology. I know there are awesome robots for heart surgery, but I would never accept undergoing heart surgery with a mediocre doctor, even if he could do a normal surgery as you never know what can go wrong... no need to give the good doctor complicated materials... get me a good doctor with a good robot and assistance, then I'll be happy.

Sorry, I think this is off topic already.


No one is calling for more complicated aircraft. We are calling for better trained pilots in these developing countries. They should be required to have the same training as pilots found in the US, Canada, etc. There are no shortcuts when it comes to good pilot training. Do you disagree with that? These countries are trying to move as many pilots into jets as quickly as possible. That isn't a good idea no matter how you look at it. Maybe they should be investing in high speed rail if they can't adequately train their pilots.
Last edited by TTailedTiger on Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
NWNightfly
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:56 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:48 am

JAAlbert wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
legoguy wrote:
If the pilots were experiencing issues with airspeed during and right after departure, could they have raised the flaps earlier than normal in order to place the aircraft into an above stall speed state of flight?


That’s sorta what I was thinking.


Something like this could make sense given the known data. Others have reported a high speed, 380kts, unusual for a plane just after take off. The 777 crew reported hearing the pilot say the airspeed indicators were off, so perhaps the crew retracted the flaps and increased speed to ensure the plane gained altitude -- which may have kicked in the MCAS, causing all sorts of new problems. Many have been focusing on the MCAS, but scenarios other than the MCAS could be at play here.

Could blocked pitot tubes alone have caused such an accident?

What happens, if anything, when flaps are retracted at a low altitude? Is there a point at which flaps are retracted too soon?

I would think that, normally and with most planes, it wouldn’t be an issue, as long as you weren't below the flaps-retraction speed. Of course, on the MAX, it would enable MCAS. But, as I understand it, even with MCAS, you wouldn’t get automatic nose-down trim unless you were near a stall, or had faulty AoA data (as with Lion Air). Is it possible that they were getting malfunctions on both AoA (MCAS) and pitots (unreliable airspeed)? Or would it take only the failure of one such system to cause this scenario?
 
csavel
Posts: 1405
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 9:38 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:50 am

OK Correct me if this has been mentioned - after 18 pages, it is hard to remember, but

Assuming it is MCAS related, people will say that after Lionair, all pilots should know how to turn it off, but, would there be enough time for simulator training, and drill after drill after drill? Would there even be enough time to program a simulator and most crucially, tell the pilots what to do AFTER they turn off MCAS? I assume it kicks in for a reason and turning it off doesn't get rid of the original reason.

I mean, in a lot of emergency situations, pilots react so well because that scenario has been practiced, practiced, and practiced again. Since, I believe, Boeing wanted to sell this as almost exactly like the NGs with little or no extra training required, reading a bulletin about how to turn off MCAS doesn't sound like it would be enough in an adrenaline charged situation.

I know this came up after the Lionair crash - how many pilots weren't even aware of this or how to turn it off.
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
airtechy
Posts: 763
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:35 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:51 am

In the context of trying to understand what happened here, it would be helpful if we knew exactly when the pilot made his request to return because of aircraft problems (I don't think it has been confirmed if he said "control problems") to better construct a "timeline". If he made the request before the point where the flaps would normally be retracted, that would seem to toss MCAS being the issue as it is locked out until they are retracted (unless there is something in the control loops we don't know about). Also if the autopilot had been selected, I believe that precludes the MCAS as it only works when it is off (manual flight). I don't know if Live ATC records at that airport, or if it is timestamped.

If would be interesting to hear from MAX pilots as to when the autopilot is selected, but I am led to believe that it is soon after the gear is raised.

I don't think I would hesitate to fly a MAX8 flight, but if the pilot was standing in the cockpit door greeting passengers I would probably ask him if he knew what MCAS was.

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