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TTailedTiger
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:06 pm

marktci wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Francoflier wrote:

Public image? You gotta be kidding me.

The news coverage and the hundreds of victims have taken care of Boeing's public image already. There is little China's or anybody else's civil aviation authority can do to hurt it further at the moment.

And a company's 'public image' is just about the last thing regulators think about when making these decisions, as it should certainly should.


You do not know the cause of this accident. Stop saying that it is Boeing's fault .


Nowhere did he say it was Boeing's fault.


Then why does he want to ground the fleet? You don't do that until you know there is a problem that affects the entire fleet. For example, once they found out that the batteries on the 787 were the culprit, the entire fleet was grounded until they were replaced. You don't know what, if anything, is wrong with the 737.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:18 pm

trnswrld wrote:
I always wonder how and why witnesses are so unreliable. I know not everyone knows about aircraft, but how hard is it to fully understand and comprehend what you’re seeing? Just weird how so many people claim to see fire and smoke when they really didn’t. I know I know it would be a very intense situation to see an aircraft crash in front of you, but still.
Now I will say IF this witness is right and there was smoke, then that changes things a lot here.


We don't do it on purpose.

The reasons for witness unreliability is deeply rooted in our neurological makeup, and it affects our entire understanding of the world. Our brains seek patterns and will construct memories based on interpretation of data from our senses. In stressful situations such as seeing a crash, the bandwidth left for sense data decreases, and our brains seem to try to compensate by creating patterns from experience. In this instance, a person seeing a crash might be expecting a crashing aircraft to be on fire, and so his/her brain can very well tell him/her that there is a fire.

Interestingly, this kind of boas bias affects pilot training as well. There have been high profile crashes where pilots have shut off the wrong engine, despite instrument evidence telling them the other one had failed, because again, in stressful situations, our bandwidth seems to decrease and our brains try to fill in the blanks. This is why before we touch any guarded pushbuttons, e.g. the fire shutoffs for the engines, as pilot flying we must get confirmation from the pilot monitoring. It's not as if we can't see the big red blinky thing. It's that our brains are able to very powerfully tell us that what we are seeing is not real.

estorilm wrote:
AviationBob wrote:
WIederling wrote:
For the A320 it is integral in the FBW system and highly redundant including a fall back path on (sensor) fault.
For the 737MAX it is a stuck on wart relying on a single input, no fault check, no fall back, no documentation.


The way you talk in such glowing terms about the A320 and then in such clearly disparaging terms about the 737 leads me to think you have an inherent bias and your overall statement can’t be trusted as rational or objective.

It's not a matter of bias, it would take someone unfamiliar days to understand the sensor flow and computer processing paths, decision-making programming, error-detection and correction, as well as overall redundancy built into Airbus FBW architecture. It's probably one of the single largest investments in commercial aviation history (as a whole) and totally defines how Airbus products operate to the core. They developed this in the '80's and it's allowed all of their products to scale up seamlessly. Any type of system like MCAS is not only pointless due to speed and alpha prot programs, but any inherent instabilities or handling characteristics can be augmented in the basic FBW programming.

It's not a matter of one being better than the other, but if you're talking systems-integration and the overall "elegance" and simplicity of work-flow in the cockpit, one is absolutely better. This is exponentially more true when we're talking about updating products that are decades old.

acechip wrote:
I feel that this zeal to ensure backward compatibility for cost considerations is one of the problems. Regulators must take a call on what constitutes a new aircraft type. The A320neo PW issue is also an equally uncomfortable situation to have, frankly.

This is something that's become more and more frustrating for me lately. Regardless of what happened with this flight, it's annoying that a supplemental type certificate can be issued for an aircraft which clearly handles different enough to require an augmentation system. Likewise - if said system is so important, it's frustrating that it has no capacity to self-check its data before performing a physical action on the aircraft's controls. I'm not a conspiracy theorist in the slightest, but I've GOT to assume the FAA/EASA looked the other way on this one. I understand they claim it's just like speed trim, with two ways of disabling.. but, eh.

For this crash, I'm actually starting to wonder if it wasn't MCAS at all, but rather the reason MCAS exists (the nose-up / sketchy power-on stall characteristics). It's entirely possible that we're seeing a MAX that stalled (due to unreliable airspeed issues) in a manner that was nothing like the NG/Classic and MCAS wasn't enough and/or didn't work fast enough.

Just something to think about that I haven't heard mentioned yet. Kinda fits.

sandyb123 wrote:

Yes this is correct, however the A320 has three sensors whereas the 737MAX has only two. If one starts to give erroneous data then the A320 has two others to fall back on whereas the 737MAX FMC has to decide which one to believe. I understand that the problem potentially here is that the system may 'fight back' on corrective pilot inputs on the 737MAX whereas the A320 will switch to 'alternate law' if it doesn't understand the data it is getting, effectively handing full control to the pilots.

Conjecture alert... Boeing, I am sure in good faith, has tried to retrofit automation within the physical limitations of an older design, but this has potentially created an Achilles Heal. That, compounded with a 'systems know best' approach to the logic is dangerous if true, in my opinion.

In summary it's a subtle but potentially significant difference in the coding of the systems.
Sandyb123

A single pitot / ADR failure is a non-issue on an Airbus, in fact it should isolate it automatically and tell you. The plane can still perform a CATIII auto land actually. Even two failures isn't much of an issue from a systems point of view. Also such failures would NOT degrade FBW into ALT LAW, you should still retain all flight protections. In the newer 330/340 and all 380 you can lose ALL THREE pitot/ADR systems and still fly on the BUSS speed tape on PFD using extrapolated AoA data. Losing primary and stby pitot in a Boeing (minus 787) = big trouble. Losing even one can be very confusing and dangerous (ie. Birgenair 301 757 crash).

The additional (and fundamental) problem here is that, eventually (if we're talking sensor/computer failures) an Airbus (and AFAIK, every other Boeing) hands controls to you - with no actions being taken at any point. In the case of the MAX, sensor or data/computer failures can result in ACTION being taken. From an aviation systems engineering standpoint, that should never happen in my opinion - it shouldn't even be able to be certified. The issue here is that fixing it basically requires Boeing to develop an integrated computer system with redundant inputs that can check for data integrity - and poof, now look where we are. ;)


Thank you for putting together this clear and informative post. Airbus FBW was designed from the ground up. Very different from what would seem the somewhat patchwork nature of some of the 737Max implementation.


Etheereal wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
trnswrld wrote:

Ok understood, but I guess what is throwing me off is what is stopping the pilots from literally just flying the aircraft? they have all the visual references in the world....its day light, its clear. Will the aircraft not respond to control column inputs?


In general, yes. The first rule is to fly the aircraft.

However, there are exceptions. In a FBW Airbus, if you're in Normal Law pulling back further will lead to a stall, the aircraft will not pitch up further. Note that this is not a bad thing...

MartijnNL wrote:
Not true. Fake news. Debunked up thread.


You're saying that flying for some reputedly dodgy airline is less safe than driving a car?

I think you mean Alternate law, you cannot stall like that in Normal mode.


Oops. My statement was slightly unclear, but you'll note I said "the aircraft will not pitch up further".

What I meant was that in Normal law, if pulling back further takes you beyond Alpha Max, the aircraft will inhibit further pitch up.


GalaxyFlyer wrote:
michi wrote:
the captain starts flying solo and becomes an instructor


Good CRM should prevent that from happening.


CRM requires resources, what resources does a 200 hour pilot offer? Little experience beyond blind compliance and whatever was passed on in simulated emergencies. Can you give the hand flying of a damaged plane to the 200-hour pilot? Can you let him run QRH procedures without monitoring the actions taken while hand flying the plane. Would you trust a 200-hour pilot to land in CAT I mins without autopilot and the captain dead?

GF


Granted, a 200-hour pilot doesn't have a lot of experience, but it depends on training. A number of major international carriers put 300-hour pilots in the right-hand seat, and militaries will happily send 300-hour pilots solo in a high performance jet. There's a difference between 300 hours tooling around in a bugsmasher vs airline targeted ab initio training.
Last edited by Starlionblue on Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
IADCA
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:18 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
IADCA wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

You do not know the cause of this accident. Stop saying that it is Boeing's fault .


Mate, he literally said "maybe, possibly" in one post and then said absolutely nothing about fault lying with Boeing in the post you just responded to. From that bit of the exchange, if anyone here looks like he's trying to drive a premature conclusion as to any potential culpability here, it's you. It's likely that's not your actual intent, but - ironically, given the context - my point is that the perception does matter.

I find it weird that people on this site seem to be pushing for one conclusion or another (again, not saying that's necessarily you) in the absence of almost all evidence that would point in any particular direction and when the CVR and FDR have been recovered - suggesting a wealth of data that will become public in due course. The rush from various parties to blame the pilots, clear the pilots of blame, blame Boeing, clear Boeing of blame: weird and childish. I don't know who the people doing that expect they'll be convincing.


He said "The news coverage and the hundreds of victims have taken care of Boeing's public image already".

He is saying that the public already assumes it is Boeing's fault yet he wants to exacerbate the situation by grounding the worldwide fleet even though there is no evidence that demands such action.


Is there anything you disagree with in that statement? It's true that the news coverage has made a pretty big dent in Boeing's image. As for the grounding, it's pretty clear that the basic divide here who require evidence that it's an airplane problem before grounding the airplanes and those who require evidence that it's not before deciding not to ground the airplanes. In other words, how much a suspicion that a plane is unsafe is required before grounding it. For some people, the fact that there are now two recent crashes of the type that have not ruled out airplane features as a cause is enough. For others, it isn't. (Take the example of the Comet crashes, for example: the plane was grounded well before anyone knew what was causing the issues.)

Both positions have some intellectual merit, but the one that doesn't is putting much weight at all on what a grounding might do to Boeing. Frankly, if their product has a severe enough defect that it is contributing to killing a planeload of people every few months, they probably deserve whatever's coming. If not, then we're weighing the short-term reputational hit to a megacorporation (which, by the way, takes in approximately a quarter of its annual revenue in taxpayer dollars from the citizens of the same country with the two largest MAX operators) against the lives of thousands of people flying on the MAX series every day. Yes, it sucks to suffer short-term consequences in a situation in which you prove to be ultimately innocent, but virtually every large corporation at one time or another faces that risk via lawsuits alleging all sorts of intentional malfeasance, which there is absolutely no evidence Boeing engaged in.
Last edited by IADCA on Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:19 pm

A potential passenger has come forward to reveal he missed getting on this flight.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -late.html
 
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Moose135
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:33 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Would you trust a 200-hour pilot to land in CAT I mins without autopilot and the captain dead?

If that pilot was properly trained and qualified, yes, I would. Remind me to tell you about the time a senior IP and a senior AC (mine - upgrading to IP) tried to kill me on a snowy night at KI Sawyer...
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
Armodeen
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:50 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:

Eu hrs haven’t change and neither has their accident rates. Whereas the US has a perfect record the last decade.


Many (many) airlines use ab initio training including some very large airlines and some 'blue chip' ones. They don't have planes constantly falling out of the sky.

Also note that your 'perfect' US record ignores the 2013 UPS A300 crash - where pilots with 4000 and 6000 hours had a CFIT, and the currently unexplained Atlas 767 crash just a couple of weeks ago.

You can say only pax frames count all you want, but that would be disingenuous.

I'm yet to see any hard evidence (studies) that show that higher hours before starting initial line training has any effect on safety. If you know of any then please post links, I am genuinely curious.

Thanks.
 
akb88
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:05 am

I flew from TXL to KEF last year on the Max 8 with Icelandair. A day later the Lion Air crash happens.

I just think it's wise to avoid this plane until we know what happened. 2 major crashes with the same type with two differnt aircrafts in two very different parts of the world and different conditions but both share similar circumstances. I just feel like it casts doubts on the airworthiness of the aircraft.
But I'm just a fearful passenger, so I don't really know anything.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:09 am

Armodeen

I’d agree with you, IF the program is rigorous and aimed at transport operations. That is NOTHING like that in US Part 61 or 141 training programs., which is why there’s this gulf between US and others on training. Like most military programs, they’re structured, have stringent checking standards and the instructor corps subject to similar levels of structure and checking. Still, experience matters.

I’m still wrapping my mind around how, assuming the engines were operating and the basic airframe and controls were intact, crews could crash the plane in Day VFR conditions. The Boeing Runaway/Uncommanded Stab Trim procedure hasn’t changed since the 737 entered service in 1967. Its DAY VFR—look out the windscreen. Is the plane climbing with two engines, if yes, continue and work the failures. If it’s an uncommanded stab trim, turn it off. If stall warning, turn it off. We changed the stall recovery procedures to make reducing AOA the first step. I have to wonder, if these crews get an erroneous stall warnng and shove the nose down combined with any MCAS inputs, it’s becomes unrecoverable. That’s my argument with low experience pilots—too much rote responses, no sense of the big picture.

I’ve had loads of new pilots, civil and military, so indoctrinated in “trust your instruments” they can’t look out the windscreen and fly the plane by God”s Attitude Indicator—the natural horizon. I had a LT in C-5, in base to finals, visual pattern, go around. I asked why he was going around. “Well, sir, we’re 200’ high on base”. You can’t fix in 3 miles? “We were thought not to salvage landings, sir”. “Well, try being perfect more often then “.

GF
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:19 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
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flybynight
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:14 am

Living just 20 minutes from Boeing's main plant in Everett, we get a lot of news locally about anything that impacts the company (the 737 is assembled a little further away in Renton, WA).

1 - The number one thing right now is condolences to the families and loved ones. The pain has to be just about unstoppable.
2 - Lets find out what happened. Time is needed even though it is the hardest to give

It is strange and eerie to see similar patterns between these two MAX crashes. Would it stop me from flying with one right now, probably not, but I have to admit it would be on my mind the first 10 minutes of climb.
But I am afraid that regardless of the reasons, damage has been done towards Boeing's reputation.
I was a little surprised by Boeings statement - Chicago-based Boeing said it did not intend to issue any new guidance to its customers. It does plan to send a technical team to the crash site to help Ethiopian and U.S. investigators.

Again we have to wait for facts beyond the one we know - the pilot(s) did get in a distress call to the tower. To me that makes it less likely it was terrorism or a cockpit intrusion. One can't rule it our, but it seems less likely.

That both planes went down at low altitude nose first is disturbing. A faulty air-speed indicator was a known issue on the Lion Air flight prior to the crash. This plane was struggling with speed and altitude. Definitely a similarity between the two.
But for a such a new plane, it is surprising there are faulty sensors that can cause a nose down command.
Is this combo of sensors and software not developed to full potential yet? This has never happened on an prior 737 dating back to the beginning days in the 60's. It is very strange that an airplane design that is far from brand new should have control issues. Has Boeing pushed the 737 to its max (pun attended) with this latest update?

But lets try to do the hard thing and wait for some preliminary answers. I do wish Boeing could have come out with a better statement though. Reading between the lines, it seems Boeing is saying, our plane is not at fault and is perfect as-is...but we'll send some folks.
Heia Norge!
 
chicawgo
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:15 am

Erebus wrote:
chicawgo wrote:
many321 wrote:

UA does fly the MAX9 they use it for domestic routes, and just recently started short International OPS to SAL. I was about to book a flight, and looking forward to fly the MAX9, though after this. I know I'll be call a wuss, until the main reason for both crashes are found, I'm not risking my or my elderly mother's life.


Better not drive to the airport then. Nor should you fly at all. Honestly, you nor your elderly mother should leave the house at all.


Quite insulting. He was not calling for a grounding of the aircraft but only that he would avoid flying on it which in the present circumstances is not unreasonable at all. People have varying levels of comfort regarding their personal safety, and if you feel comfortable about it, good for you. Would you tell it to the family of a victim that the MAX is absolutely safe to fly and if they don't they're better off not leaving the house?


I think you may be missing what I was saying. The poster wrote “I’m not risking my or my elderly mother’s life.” My point is that they’re risking their life significantly more by driving in a car. And for that matter, just traveling in general poses a small risk - especially if a traveler is elderly. Everyone can do whatever they want based on what happened. No need to post and share. But if you do post and share on a public forum, other people giving their opinion of your decision is fair game. If you don’t want to be ridiculed for irrational and statistically baseless claims, then don’t post on a public forum. I didn’t insult anyone.
 
edu2703
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:17 am

Aeromexico has grounded its MAX 8 fleet.
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:18 am

FlyBTV wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
The cable news media in the U.S. is not rally giving this that much attention. I've not seen more than a passing 3-4 story on this, and I've been actively looking for it on all three networks. Our president sucks the life out the media everyday, and this incident has yet to affect Americans aside from the families of the Americans on board.


That may be, but the traditional (print) media is giving it a lot of coverage. It's been front page news on NYTimes.com for the last 24 hours or so, with multiple stories about the accident and the 737 MAX. I didn't even see a story in the Times about the Atlas accident, which granted was cargo but also occurred in the US.


Print media is my preferred method, but sadly outside of NY, DC and the larger metropolitan areas, local print media leaves a lot to be desired.
I have been on this site 15 years. A unrecoverable email account led me to starting over. Those of you who call me a rookie, you may stop ok?
 
many321
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:27 am

chicawgo wrote:
Erebus wrote:
chicawgo wrote:

Better not drive to the airport then. Nor should you fly at all. Honestly, you nor your elderly mother should leave the house at all.


Quite insulting. He was not calling for a grounding of the aircraft but only that he would avoid flying on it which in the present circumstances is not unreasonable at all. People have varying levels of comfort regarding their personal safety, and if you feel comfortable about it, good for you. Would you tell it to the family of a victim that the MAX is absolutely safe to fly and if they don't they're better off not leaving the house?


No need to post and share. But if you do post and share on a public forum, other people giving their opinion of your decision is fair game. If you don’t want to be ridiculed for irrational and statistically baseless claims, then don’t post on a public forum. I didn’t insult anyone.


Sure...Baseless claim after 300 people literally got made into mince meat. I mentioned my mother since I didn't want her to suffer a similar fate to those who died in both MAX8's thinking they were safe when they received a nasty little surprise.

I'll agree you didn't insult me, though you did come off as bit crass. :)
 
many321
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:28 am

edu2703 wrote:
Aeromexico has grounded its MAX 8 fleet.


Here's their press release.

https://mobile.twitter.com/TravelxTimes ... 56/photo/1
 
NYfree
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:30 am

So many airlines are grounding their planes i don't see how united, AA and southwest don't do it with public outcry.
 
ytz
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:36 am

chicawgo wrote:
Erebus wrote:
chicawgo wrote:

Better not drive to the airport then. Nor should you fly at all. Honestly, you nor your elderly mother should leave the house at all.


Quite insulting. He was not calling for a grounding of the aircraft but only that he would avoid flying on it which in the present circumstances is not unreasonable at all. People have varying levels of comfort regarding their personal safety, and if you feel comfortable about it, good for you. Would you tell it to the family of a victim that the MAX is absolutely safe to fly and if they don't they're better off not leaving the house?


I think you may be missing what I was saying. The poster wrote “I’m not risking my or my elderly mother’s life.” My point is that they’re risking their life significantly more by driving in a car. And for that matter, just traveling in general poses a small risk - especially if a traveler is elderly. Everyone can do whatever they want based on what happened. No need to post and share. But if you do post and share on a public forum, other people giving their opinion of your decision is fair game. If you don’t want to be ridiculed for irrational and statistically baseless claims, then don’t post on a public forum. I didn’t insult anyone.



The car comparison is such a red herring at times.

1) Car crashes happen. But you're more likely to walk away from one when they do.

2) The level of traffic, level of training and skill demanded to operate a motor vehicle aren't close. So there most certainly should be fewer fatalities for aviation.

3) A fatal car crash can kill a handful of bystanders. An airliner losing control over an urban area is a massively different concern.

4) While aviation is safer than driving, at this point, it's hard to say that flying on a 737-8 MAX is safer than driving. It's a dodge to say that aviation. Nobody is saying flying isn't safer than driving. That's a strawman.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:43 am

edu2703 wrote:
Aeromexico has grounded its MAX 8 fleet.


The airlines know very well that grounded airplanes just cost $$$. I don't think grounding airplanes is going to recoup the costs in the form of good PR.

When they're going to fly them again, they need a justification. Of course they'll trot out something like "deeper analysis has shown that ... is safe".


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
TheOldDude
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:48 am

many321 wrote:
Baseless claim after 300 people literally got made into mince meat.


I quote the above as an example of a theme that runs through several posts. That theme is that the number of people that died reflects on the safety of the aircraft, with 300 or fewer being a trigger for either a decision not to fly on the aircraft or a justification for grounding.

If the aircraft was being ferried with two crew and met the same fate in the same manner, should decisions about flying in the aircraft, or grounding, be different? If so, on what logical basis?

Seems to me decisions are made on emotion, judgement, and logic. We can't make a decision based on logic because we don't have sufficient facts. We can use judgement, but then we have to recognize that (1) reasonable people may differ, and (2) judgement is influenced by biases in risk perception and evaluation (reference "Thanking Fast and Slow" by Khanneman). Once we recognize those factors, perhaps we can rationally discuss risk.
 
edu2703
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:00 am

The Pilots Union of Argentina has issued a statement refusing to fly on the MAX 8. Aerolíneas Argentinas has five 737 MAX 8 and issued a statement early today saying they won't ground the aircrafts.
 
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Erebus
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:01 am

ytz wrote:
The car comparison is such a red herring at times.


I also see it as an apples to oranges comparison to bring up the flying is safer than driving argument. Sure we go about driving cars accepting a finite level of risk but how many plane crashes have to occur for the risks to be considered equal? And are you prepared to accept even half that number of crashes and still deem it safe even though you are still more likely to get in an accident involving a car?
 
CO953
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:06 am

edu2703 wrote:
The Pilots Union of Argentina has issued a statement refusing to fly on the MAX 8. Aerolíneas Argentinas has five 737 MAX 8 and issued a statement early today saying they won't ground the aircrafts.

I guess a few ramp rats may get their shot then. The show must go on.
 
hivue
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:06 am

Boeingphan wrote:
I've read all 26 pages but I recall a post earlier, and I'm not about to look it back up cause my head is spinning, but some pilots were concerned with the compressor stalls in the Max. I believe I read that they were concerned with the surging and voraciousness of the stalls. I'm wondering if this is a part of the issue. You have reduced power from the stall, you'd have the smoke/flames coming out the back, you'd have the shaking and what not from the engine surging. Just trying to piece something else together.


Also just trying to piec... er, just speculating: Bird strike during/right after takeoff takes out an engine plus an AoA vane or pitot tube or whatever. Significantly reduced thrust plus unreliable airspeed plus MCAS says I'll take it from here if you don't mind.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
speedking
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:11 am

Interesting this discussion about what should be done with the MAX while waiting for the results of the investigations.
I myself don't trust any corporation. I don't need government to tell me what to do. I leave it to the Europeans.
Until the reason for the crashes is clear:
If it's Boeing and it's MAX
I ain't going, I ain't pax
 
chicawgo
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:17 am

ytz wrote:
chicawgo wrote:
Erebus wrote:

Quite insulting. He was not calling for a grounding of the aircraft but only that he would avoid flying on it which in the present circumstances is not unreasonable at all. People have varying levels of comfort regarding their personal safety, and if you feel comfortable about it, good for you. Would you tell it to the family of a victim that the MAX is absolutely safe to fly and if they don't they're better off not leaving the house?


I think you may be missing what I was saying. The poster wrote “I’m not risking my or my elderly mother’s life.” My point is that they’re risking their life significantly more by driving in a car. And for that matter, just traveling in general poses a small risk - especially if a traveler is elderly. Everyone can do whatever they want based on what happened. No need to post and share. But if you do post and share on a public forum, other people giving their opinion of your decision is fair game. If you don’t want to be ridiculed for irrational and statistically baseless claims, then don’t post on a public forum. I didn’t insult anyone.



The car comparison is such a red herring at times.

1) Car crashes happen. But you're more likely to walk away from one when they do.

2) The level of traffic, level of training and skill demanded to operate a motor vehicle aren't close. So there most certainly should be fewer fatalities for aviation.

3) A fatal car crash can kill a handful of bystanders. An airliner losing control over an urban area is a massively different concern.

4) While aviation is safer than driving, at this point, it's hard to say that flying on a 737-8 MAX is safer than driving. It's a dodge to say that aviation. Nobody is saying flying isn't safer than driving. That's a strawman.


1-3 are absolutely true but have no relevance here. In fact, the “well WHEN a plane crashes the survivability is much lower” response is the real red herring. It’s completely irrelevant.

#4 I don’t see any evidence that the MAX is more dangerous than driving.
 
billreid
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:18 am

The threads are disturbing at best. There seams to be a race to be the first one right. If you look at what facts we have so far, it is not clear what happened. The FDR and Voice info will tell if the problem was the same. We will know that within days. Voice will tell what the crew was reacting to and flight data will tell what the aircraft was doing.
I for one don't see similarities except flight crashed at takeoff and it was the same type as in Indonesia. There are too many possibilities to jump to conclusions. Maybe they are related, but maybe they aren't. Statistical probability is they aren't related but that can't be ruled out just yet either. But that said there are only two narrow body Aircraft manufacturers AB and BA in this size ACFT so it is reasonably statistically possible that this could happen.
We know the pilot declared and emergency, but we don't know what it was. We can't even rule out an explosion on board from terrorist activity damaging the plane yet.
Lets wait and see. We should know PDQ what happened, knowing why could take a lot longer though.
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prebennorholm
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:25 am

flyingturtle wrote:
edu2703 wrote:
Aeromexico has grounded its MAX 8 fleet.


The airlines know very well that grounded airplanes just cost $$$. I don't think grounding airplanes is going to recoup the costs in the form of good PR.

When they're going to fly them again, they need a justification. Of course they'll trot out something like "deeper analysis has shown that ... is safe".

David

No, that's not what they will do. They will tell what caused the accidents, and they will tell why that same thing won't happen again.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
United1
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:31 am

Sky News is reporting Boeing is going to be pushing a software update for the MCAS in the next few weeks. It way to early for anyone (even Boeing) to know what caused the crash but if it was MCAS related hopefully this fixes it.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:43 am

Please keep this thread on topic. This thread is specifically about the Ethiopian crash. Discussion related to the grounding of the 737MAX belongs in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1417545

Please be sure to reply to the appropriate discussion.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:44 am

billreid wrote:
The threads are disturbing at best. There seams to be a race to be the first one right. If you look at what facts we have so far, it is not clear what happened. The FDR and Voice info will tell if the problem was the same. We will know that within days. Voice will tell what the crew was reacting to and flight data will tell what the aircraft was doing.
I for one don't see similarities except flight crashed at takeoff and it was the same type as in Indonesia. There are too many possibilities to jump to conclusions. Maybe they are related, but maybe they aren't. Statistical probability is they aren't related but that can't be ruled out just yet either. But that said there are only two narrow body Aircraft manufacturers AB and BA in this size ACFT so it is reasonably statistically possible that this could happen.
We know the pilot declared and emergency, but we don't know what it was. We can't even rule out an explosion on board from terrorist activity damaging the plane yet.
Lets wait and see. We should know PDQ what happened, knowing why could take a lot longer though.



Indeed. To your first point, I think we all are aware that answers will flow quickly once the FDR and CVR are read out. Yes there has been some asinine comments in here today but I would also like to note that we have done a pretty good job of piecing quite a few things together with the limited data we have.

Which leads me to your second point. At this point, I see no similarity to the Lion Air incident other than the two aircraft being about the same age and of the same type. To be fair, we don't technically know that it was the MCAS that brought down Lion Air. We only suspect it was that. Could be they ran into a second issue after figuring out how to handle the trim problem. We actually have less information about this flight yet people are calling to ground the plane.

I posted in the other thread but I'll say it here; I know many engineers who worked on this type. I would fly on it tonight without hesitation. Nothing has convinced me to do otherwise at this point.
 
dwachdorf
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:50 am

Dumb Question (And forgot my ignorance, I'm not an aviation expert) - Why doesn't Boeing just disable MCAS? Is it really necessary? Can you just train pilots on how to deal with the nose up pitch? Seems like the kind of things pilots would naturally want to counter-act.
 
ikramerica
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:51 am

Francoflier wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
ClubCX wrote:
China has just produced its own competitor to the 737 MAX and is using this as an opportunity to promote it and frame the American plane as inferior.

Not to get too much OT, but after Trump walked out on Kim, Xi canceled his meeting with Trump, and Trump made greater demands on Kim. Tariff negotiations also broke down.

Grounding the Max and preventing more deliveries would be a way of hurting the trade deficit further.

And China was hoping that other major countries would follow suit. May even be pressuring belt and road partners to ground the Max.

But its all about safety...


Please stop making up your own reality just because you can't live with the idea that maybe, possibly, there might be something wrong with the airplane and that Boeing unwillingly screwed the pooch... perhaps.

Unfortunately, that possibility is very much there, and China has decided to guard against it. Others may decide differently, but I can bet you there isn't a single aviation authority out there not at least considering it.

The safest course of action is to avoid risk until it is at least identified, quantified and addressed. If Boeing and the Max are cleared, then at worst all it's cost is delays, a bit of lost revenue and some frustrated passengers.

Quit pretending there isn't a potential issue for the sake of defending a corporation, especially in the wake of so many deaths. Surely, your pride can't hurt as much as the sorrow of those who lost loved ones for no good reason.

My analysis of the Chinese action has nothing to do with denying theres anything wrong.

Ive clearly stated over and over that the AoA mismatch logic in the Max is faulty and that there should be clear indications to the crew when MCAS activates if for no other reason than it seems like its damn important to know even if everything is working right. But we dont even know if MCAS was the issue here. Do you? It could be an issue that effects all 737NG as well, or all CFM engines. So why only proactively ground the Max?

The problem is that China is NOT known for ever erring on the side of safety. We have far, far, far too many examples of both products made for domestic use and for export to the USA, Japan, Korea etc of purposeful substitution of inferior materials or even poisons with the full knowledge of the regulatory agencies. Inferior steel, poisoned baby formula, dog foodz There are building collapses, SCHOOL collapses within China, due to the Chinese authorities failure to give a darn about safety. It’s like areas of the USA during the turn of the 20th century 125 years ago.

Its simply opportunistic of the Chinese to ban MAX flying based on the current economic and political climate in China with regard to the USA. All of the events I mentioned unfolded in the past week. 2 weeks ago before the Kim summit I might be less incredulous, but how can we know what they would have done?

Its retaliatory, just like the iPhone ban for violating simple interface patents that were voided elsewhere because they were not patentable. The Chinese grounding of the MAX came far too soon for them to have any meaningful understanding of the events, let alone the cause. And theres also no valid statistical analysis to back up their action. They might as well also ban all 767 flying, as the Atlas crash is unexplained, and though more spread out, 767s have also crashed around the world.

In fact, for the Chinese to be proactive, each and every time there is an incident that cant be explained in 12 hours, that aircraft type should be immediately, without investigation, grounded. Just to be safe.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:54 am

dwachdorf wrote:
Dumb Question (And forgot my ignorance, I'm not an aviation expert) - Why doesn't Boeing just disable MCAS? Is it really necessary? Can you just train pilots on how to deal with the nose up pitch? Seems like the kind of things pilots would naturally want to counter-act.


It is required to maintain proper stability and control characteristics in certain conditions. It was required to make the aircraft certifiable.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:55 am

dwachdorf wrote:
Dumb Question (And forgot my ignorance, I'm not an aviation expert) - Why doesn't Boeing just disable MCAS? Is it really necessary? Can you just train pilots on how to deal with the nose up pitch? Seems like the kind of things pilots would naturally want to counter-act.


Because MCAS was required for certification. Disable it and you can't legally fly the aircraft.

All airliners must be certified to be flown by a pilot of "normal" skill. In other words, if the aircraft is so hard to fly that only pilots of exceptional skill and training can fly it, it cannot be certified as an airliner. For example, the Space Shuttle or the U-2 could never be airliners.

As I understand it, during certification it was found that given the increased weight and thrust of the 737Max compared to the 737NG, in certain flight regimes a pilot of "normal" skill might have issues controlling it. Thus MCAS was added.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
luv2cattlecall
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:55 am

hivue wrote:
Boeingphan wrote:
I've read all 26 pages but I recall a post earlier, and I'm not about to look it back up cause my head is spinning, but some pilots were concerned with the compressor stalls in the Max. I believe I read that they were concerned with the surging and voraciousness of the stalls. I'm wondering if this is a part of the issue. You have reduced power from the stall, you'd have the smoke/flames coming out the back, you'd have the shaking and what not from the engine surging. Just trying to piece something else together.


Also just trying to piec... er, just speculating: Bird strike during/right after takeoff takes out an engine plus an AoA vane or pitot tube or whatever. Significantly reduced thrust plus unreliable airspeed plus MCAS says I'll take it from here if you don't mind.



Genuine question (as I know very little about animals): are bird strikes as much of a problem at 7,500 ft as they are at Sea level?
 
Etheereal
Posts: 374
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:56 am

edu2703 wrote:
Aeromexico has grounded its MAX 8 fleet.

Someone's gonna get mad at BOG..
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:58 am

ikramerica wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
Not to get too much OT, but after Trump walked out on Kim, Xi canceled his meeting with Trump, and Trump made greater demands on Kim. Tariff negotiations also broke down.

Grounding the Max and preventing more deliveries would be a way of hurting the trade deficit further.

And China was hoping that other major countries would follow suit. May even be pressuring belt and road partners to ground the Max.

But its all about safety...


Please stop making up your own reality just because you can't live with the idea that maybe, possibly, there might be something wrong with the airplane and that Boeing unwillingly screwed the pooch... perhaps.

Unfortunately, that possibility is very much there, and China has decided to guard against it. Others may decide differently, but I can bet you there isn't a single aviation authority out there not at least considering it.

The safest course of action is to avoid risk until it is at least identified, quantified and addressed. If Boeing and the Max are cleared, then at worst all it's cost is delays, a bit of lost revenue and some frustrated passengers.

Quit pretending there isn't a potential issue for the sake of defending a corporation, especially in the wake of so many deaths. Surely, your pride can't hurt as much as the sorrow of those who lost loved ones for no good reason.

My analysis of the Chinese action has nothing to do with denying theres anything wrong.

Ive clearly stated over and over that the AoA mismatch logic in the Max is faulty and that there should be clear indications to the crew when MCAS activates if for no other reason than it seems like its damn important to know even if everything is working right. But we dont even know if MCAS was the issue here. Do you? It could be an issue that effects all 737NG as well, or all CFM engines. So why only proactively ground the Max?

The problem is that China is NOT known for ever erring on the side of safety. We have far, far, far too many examples of both products made for domestic use and for export to the USA, Japan, Korea etc of purposeful substitution of inferior materials or even poisons with the full knowledge of the regulatory agencies. Inferior steel, poisoned baby formula, dog foodz There are building collapses, SCHOOL collapses within China, due to the Chinese authorities failure to give a darn about safety. It’s like areas of the USA during the turn of the 20th century 125 years ago.

Its simply opportunistic of the Chinese to ban MAX flying based on the current economic and political climate in China with regard to the USA. All of the events I mentioned unfolded in the past week. 2 weeks ago before the Kim summit I might be less incredulous, but how can we know what they would have done?

Its retaliatory, just like the iPhone ban for violating simple interface patents that were voided elsewhere because they were not patentable. The Chinese grounding of the MAX came far too soon for them to have any meaningful understanding of the events, let alone the cause. And theres also no valid statistical analysis to back up their action. They might as well also ban all 767 flying, as the Atlas crash is unexplained, and though more spread out, 767s have also crashed around the world.

In fact, for the Chinese to be proactive, each and every time there is an incident that cant be explained in 12 hours, that aircraft type should be immediately, without investigation, grounded. Just to be safe.


Agreed. There is no substance in their order to ground the 737.
 
benjjk
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:06 am

dwachdorf wrote:
Dumb Question (And forgot my ignorance, I'm not an aviation expert) - Why doesn't Boeing just disable MCAS? Is it really necessary? Can you just train pilots on how to deal with the nose up pitch? Seems like the kind of things pilots would naturally want to counter-act.


MCAS is a condition for certification. When an aircraft is at a high AoA the FAA requires it to have a natural tendency to pitch the nose down, or otherwise some sort of system to force it down - hence MCAS. It is supposed to be a safeguard for when the pilots are disoriented/not in full control for whatever reason.

Unfortunately the Lionair crash (likely) showed that MCAS can be fooled by an erroneous sensor, and whilst there was a procedure in place for that situation, the procedure failed. We don't yet know if this accident experienced the same thing.
 
edu2703
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:07 am

Per AvHerald

On Mar 11th 2019 two listeners on frequency reported independently the crew declared emergency shortly after normal departure, while in the initial climb, reporting they had unreliable airspeed indications and had difficulties to control the aircraft. The listeners could not hear later transmissions due to frequency changes.


I hope ATC communication to be released soon. If this is true, it's quite possible that this crash is somewhat related to the Lion Air crash
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:23 am

akb88 wrote:
I flew from TXL to KEF last year on the Max 8 with Icelandair. A day later the Lion Air crash happens.

I just think it's wise to avoid this plane until we know what happened. 2 major crashes with the same type with two differnt aircrafts in two very different parts of the world and different conditions but both share similar circumstances. I just feel like it casts doubts on the airworthiness of the aircraft.
But I'm just a fearful passenger, so I don't really know anything.

Much the same with me. Except BLL - KEF instead of TXL - KEF.

I really don't like the only two AoA sensors, and their connection to primary pitch control. It appears so un-21st-century-ish and cheapish to me. Give me three AoA sensors with voting to exclude the bad guy.

Until someone convinces me about something which I don't know today, then my next flight to KEF will be a less convenient and more expensive CPH - KEF flight on a SAS A320. Because with Icelandair I can't be sure to be on a B757 any longer, but maybe "only" a B737-MAX.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:31 am

luv2cattlecall wrote:
Genuine question (as I know very little about animals): are bird strikes as much of a problem at 7,500 ft as they are at Sea level?


Bird strikes are less prevalent at high altitudes, but can happen as high as 30K feet. 7500 feet in the case of ADD is irrelevant as the field elevation is 7600, as well the majority of bird strikes are within a few thousand feet of field elevation and depend on nesting and food sources.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Magog
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:32 am

Erebus wrote:
ytz wrote:
The car comparison is such a red herring at times.


I also see it as an apples to oranges comparison to bring up the flying is safer than driving argument. Sure we go about driving cars accepting a finite level of risk but how many plane crashes have to occur for the risks to be considered equal? And are you prepared to accept even half that number of crashes and still deem it safe even though you are still more likely to get in an accident involving a car?

Also, we have wide latitude in deciding which aircraft to fly. We don’t have wide latitude in deciding whether or not to travel by road.
 
LeoNYC
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:38 am

Quite a few of these birds are in the air right now: https://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/B38M
 
gia777
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:41 am

I think a simple fix would be, "make it like a cruise control function in your car"....The MCAS can only be activated manually / automatic at certain safe altitude and disengaged automatically below safe altitude.
Cheers,

GIA777 :coffee:
 
SuperEighty
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:42 am

benjjk wrote:
dwachdorf wrote:
Dumb Question (And forgot my ignorance, I'm not an aviation expert) - Why doesn't Boeing just disable MCAS? Is it really necessary? Can you just train pilots on how to deal with the nose up pitch? Seems like the kind of things pilots would naturally want to counter-act.


MCAS is a condition for certification. When an aircraft is at a high AoA the FAA requires it to have a natural tendency to pitch the nose down, or otherwise some sort of system to force it down - hence MCAS. It is supposed to be a safeguard for when the pilots are disoriented/not in full control for whatever reason.

Unfortunately the Lionair crash (likely) showed that MCAS can be fooled by an erroneous sensor, and whilst there was a procedure in place for that situation, the procedure failed. We don't yet know if this accident experienced the same thing.


Well said.

I can see certainly see the advantages that MCAS has to offer. Had Air France 447 had MCAS or a similar system maybe that flight would have ended differently.

I hope the issue gets sorted out, I’m without a doubt a Boeing fan but can’t blame any airline for grounding their fleet of MAX’s. That said, I also can’t blame any other airline for not grounding theirs.

Looking at the crash site, it brings flashes of both PSA 1771 and UAL93. Extremely high vertical speed and an extremely low ground (forward) speed.


-SuperEighty
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:45 am

Duplicate
Last edited by trpmb6 on Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:46 am

EvanWSFO wrote:
FlyBTV wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
The cable news media in the U.S. is not rally giving this that much attention. I've not seen more than a passing 3-4 story on this, and I've been actively looking for it on all three networks. Our president sucks the life out the media everyday, and this incident has yet to affect Americans aside from the families of the Americans on board.


That may be, but the traditional (print) media is giving it a lot of coverage. It's been front page news on NYTimes.com for the last 24 hours or so, with multiple stories about the accident and the 737 MAX. I didn't even see a story in the Times about the Atlas accident, which granted was cargo but also occurred in the US.

This was the top story on NBC Nightly News tonight. I assume other network news programs were the same.
Print media is my preferred method, but sadly outside of NY, DC and the larger metropolitan areas, local print media leaves a lot to be desired.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
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tenHangar
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:47 am

39% grounded

Number of 737 MAX 8s in Fleet Status Airline
22 Grounded China Southern Airlines
15 Grounded Air China
11 Grounded Hainan Airlines
11 Grounded Shanghai Airlines
10 Grounded Xiamen Airlines
10 Grounded Lion Air
7 Grounded Shandong Airlines
7 Grounded GOL Airlines
6 Grounded Shenzhen Airlines
4 Grounded Ethiopian Airlines
4 Grounded China Eastern Airlines
3 Grounded Lucky Air
2 Grounded Cayman Airways
2 Grounded Fuzhou Airlines
2 Grounded Kunming Airlines
2 Grounded Okay Airways
1 Grounded 9 Air
1 Grounded Garuda Indonesia
1 Grounded Comair
6 Grounded Aeromexico
5 Grounded Aerolineas Argentinas
2 Grounded Eastar Jet
2 Grounded Royal Air Maroc
1 Grounded MIAT Mongolian Airlines
34 In use Southwest Airlines
24 In use Air Canada
24 In use American Airlines
18 In use Norwegian Air
15 In use TUI fly
13 In use SpiceJet
13 In use WestJet
11 In use FlyDubai
11 In use Turkish Airlines
7 In use Smartwings
5 In use Oman Air
4 In use Sunwing Airlines
3 In use Air Italy
3 In use Icelandair
2 In use Fiji Airways
2 In use S7 Airlines
1 In use SCAT
9 Unknown Jet Airways
6 Unknown SilkAir
5 Unknown LOT
2 Unknown Enter Air
1 Unknown Mauritania Airlines
1 Unknown Corendon Airlines

nytimes.com/interactive/2019/03/11/world/boeing-737-max-which-airlines.html
Last edited by tenHangar on Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:00 am, edited 4 times in total.
 
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Moose135
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:47 am

United1 wrote:
Sky News is reporting Boeing is going to be pushing a software update for the MCAS in the next few weeks. It way to early for anyone (even Boeing) to know what caused the crash but if it was MCAS related hopefully this fixes it.

This update has been in the works since the Lion Air crash, it isn't a direct response to this ET crash.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:50 am

gia777 wrote:
I think a simple fix would be, "make it like a cruise control function in your car"....The MCAS can only be activated manually / automatic at certain safe altitude and disengaged automatically below safe altitude.


And the plane would lose its certification, hence unusable.

GF
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15100
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:56 am

gia777 wrote:
I think a simple fix would be, "make it like a cruise control function in your car"....The MCAS can only be activated manually / automatic at certain safe altitude and disengaged automatically below safe altitude.

It's not cruise control. It prevents an aircraft that is in a steep climb from stalling by over-rotating due to the lifting effect of the engines at high AoA.

The problem is, when not in steep climb, it is activated when the AoA sensors trick the computer into thinking otherwise.

The other problem is, it can be turned off by anyone who knows what's happening. And knowing what's happening isn't vital, as the the net effect of what's happening is "runaway stab" and that's also something that can be defeated and pilots should know about.

And as for the ET crash, we DON'T KNOW what happened at all. People are assuming MCAS despite the reports that there was an improper airspeed (not AoA) indicated and difficulty controlling the aircraft. Saying that they were dealing with MCAS is jumping the gun. For all we know, the fluctuations of the aircraft Vspeed may be due to stalling and repeated attempts to recover from a stall. We only have some people trying to connect dots to fit a model that there's no reason to believe is the only model.

There very well could be something entirely different and unsafe about the MAX! Or, there could be something that happened to this aircraft that isn't specific to the type. There could be something related to the engines. We don't know yet. Well, China knows. At least that's what some people are saying.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.

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